<viric>
samueldr: gchristensen: I noticed that the laptop keyboard is FAR better than whatever usb keyboards I tried, at rollover
<__monty__>
I've never understood rollover. Are people really typing so fast it matters?
<Remosi>
__monty__, you do need it for gaming.
<__monty__>
In what scenario?
<ar>
heh, the keyboard i'm on now (thinkpad X260 keyboard) does a funny thing. eg, i can press asdfhkl at the same time, and it'll recognize all this
<ar>
but it won't recognize "g" or "j" when pressing "asdf")
<thefloweringash>
the default keyboard hid report is a 6-byte array, but some keyboards will send a bitset with 1 bit per key. my gamer keyboard does this, as well as being two keyboards
<Remosi>
__monty__, hitting A and W to go forward and left is not uncommon. You might also want to fire (space), and so on.
<thefloweringash>
iiuc, to consistently report which keys are being held down you need a diode per key
<__monty__>
Remosi: That sounds like 3-key rollover. So why do gamers need 10?
<Remosi>
coz they're more of a gamer than I :)
<Remosi>
I assume because they're pushing even more buttons because the game is even more complex
<__monty__>
Sure let's say 6 is reasonable. But *10*?
<sphalerite>
that allows you to use all your fingers at once.
<__monty__>
Which is useful in which game?
<tokudan>
__monty__, 640kb is enough for everyone ;)
<Remosi>
__monty__, possibly also allows for accidentally keys, eg missing "t" and hitting "tfg"
<__monty__>
-_- I remain unconvinced.
<tokudan>
__monty__, some person somewhere suffered from this limit and thought it would be great to fix it. so they did it. you not being convinced does not mean that it does not make sense.
<__monty__>
Since when does industry cater to "someone somewhere?"
<__monty__>
This is just marketing.
<Remosi>
I think you answered your last statement with your second to last line?
<Remosi>
er, visa versa
<__monty__>
But apparently people disagree?
<tokudan>
you've just told us that you're just going to reply with "this is just marketing". so why should we bother if you're just going to brush everything away with "nobody needs that"?
<tokudan>
you're making the same mistake as the "it helps against childporn"-people that want perfect surveilance of everything on the internet
<__monty__>
I'm not brushing anything away. I'm asking for a single case where you might conceivably need 10 key rollover. Nothing to get upset about.
<__monty__>
viric's bit of "dumb js" is kinda cool and informative. It just made me think of all the keyboard reviews where they highlight the 10-key rollover.
<tokudan>
ok, space sim: rolling sideways while steering to the top left and strafing to one side is 4 keys. add target switching and firing and you're at 6. now add rocket launcher and you're at 7.
<__monty__>
Those sound sequential.
<tokudan>
not necessarily
<__monty__>
And we're still at 7 with a fairly synthetic example.
<tokudan>
laser fire is continuous, so that button stays down, the 4 direction keys as well. it's not unusual in one game to keep the rocket launcher pressed as well and switching to another target is the 7th and if i only got enemies around, why should I bother releasing the fire buttons?
<tokudan>
maybe that's synthetic for you, but not for me
<tokudan>
just accept that others have different needs there
<__monty__>
I'll go with Occam's razor if you don't mind.
<tokudan>
i don't mind your choice of keyboard at all. use whatever fits your usage.
<infinisil>
__monty__: Some games let 2 people play on a single keyboard
<tokudan>
just don't think that others have exactly the same needs as you
<__monty__>
infinisil: In games that require more than 3 simultaneous pressed keys?
<__monty__>
I'm pretty skeptical this sort of games is the reason gamers buy 10-key rollover keyboards anyway.
<infinisil>
Perhaps? Who knows! But 10 keys is enough that nobody should ever ask for more, whatever the scenario
<__monty__>
Why not design for party games with 10 people to a keyboard? : )
<thefloweringash>
I hadn't heard of 10-key rollover as much as I hear of n-key rollover. my gamer keyboard can report all the keys
<__monty__>
Finally a keyboard we can use for those 10-person party games : )
<thefloweringash>
or hacking like they do on television
<thefloweringash>
I'm having physical problems scoring over 25 keys on that javascript page :)
<tokudan>
apparently my keyboard also supports that, i got a max of 42 on that page. first time I've actually tried going beyond those 6 or 7 for x3.
<tokudan>
thefloweringash, why? don't press keys, press the whole keyboard with two hands :)
<thefloweringash>
if I do that my chromebook starts doing crazy things!
<thefloweringash>
I swear I saw a window do a 360 degree spin
<viric>
__monty__: well people care for the rollover for games, but I care for TYPING
<__monty__>
viric: You need more than 6? What's your typing speed?
<viric>
__monty__: most keyboards are 2KRO, not 6.
<__monty__>
And is it impossible to game on them? : )
<tokudan>
oh great... that somehow activated the plasma function of drawing on the screen with the mouse O_o
<viric>
2KRO means AT MINIMUM 2 at once. For some combinations they do more. a 2KRO keyboard may accept cursors+shift+aswd at once. But they cannot claim 6KRO if 6-at-once doesn't work for ANY combination
<viric>
In my logitech, shift-r-t don't work at once.
<viric>
__monty__: ~620 presses per minute, ~120 WPM
<__monty__>
And what KRO would you say is the minimum for you to type without issues?
<thefloweringash>
TIL: "10KRO" is 6KRO counted wrong (according to deskthority.net)
<__monty__>
Sounds like the 10 kinds of people in the world joke.
<viric>
__monty__: I need 2KRO in letters *with shift pressed*. Pressing shift in the logitech actually makes a 1KRO for the letters.
<thefloweringash>
"I may be asory case, but I don't write jokes in base 6" ;-)
<thefloweringash>
s/asory/a sorry/
<viric>
thefloweringash: some keyboards report "up to 6 keys at once!" (so they state the maximum, not the minimum!)
<__monty__>
So 3 KRO is all *anyone* could ever need : >
<viric>
__monty__: That's for typing. I don't play much games.
<viric>
But I remember playing IronMan OffRaod two or three in a keyboard and often one blocked the other
<viric>
__monty__: the problem is that no manufacturer advertises "2KRO and Shift apart" or "3KRO".
<viric>
my laptop keyboard (very cheap) does 6KRO it feels, in any combination I try. Much better than the desktop keyboards I have.
<viric>
For example, the Genesis RX55 I tried, that cannot do shift-f-g at once, advertises as "anti-ghosting system, up to 7 keys at once".
<viric>
- I learnt the lesson after buying it.
<__monty__>
Hmm, wouldn't typing shift+2 keys almost always result in accidental caps?
<viric>
I type UPPERCASE with shift pressed.
<viric>
But I see you don't grasp any little bit of this :)
<viric>
The point of that webpage I gave was to type text and see the "max" you reach at normal typing.
<__monty__>
I did say "almost always." How often do you type in all caps? There's not that many acronyms I capitalize.
<__monty__>
If you like chiclet style keyboards the apple wired keyboard's nice.
<viric>
ashkitten: ha.
<viric>
__monty__: I need a standard key distribution too
<viric>
hm it looks pretty standard now that I look at it. But I hope I don't need something so expensive.
<__monty__>
Which standard? : >
<__monty__>
ISO isn't *non* standard! smh
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<samueldr>
ugh...
<evanjs>
Tempted to setup Minecraft server on a box, maybe one of my nix computers, but the Minecraft module seems to have more of a vanilla server focus. Anybody know if there are any attempts / projects out there outside the module in the main nixpkgs tree?
<samueldr>
ISO/IEC 9995 does NOT describe the exact position of every keys
<ashkitten>
now you're gonna tell me the pinebook keyboard is iso
<samueldr>
it is
<samueldr>
both are
<ashkitten>
i hate this
<samueldr>
oh
<samueldr>
pinebook
<samueldr>
no
<samueldr>
I thought about pinebook pro
<samueldr>
the pinebook is NOT iso
<ashkitten>
ok good
<ashkitten>
thank hell
<samueldr>
though it does describe where keys go in the different layouts
<samueldr>
where you move the keys when you go from tallboi enter to longboi enter
<samueldr>
and straying from that ISO standard is what makes horrible keyboards
<ashkitten>
sigh
<ashkitten>
except ergo keyboards, those are great
<samueldr>
I don't know how much help my being vocal helped for the pinebook pro, but they almost made the big mistake of using whatever the jellybean part had sprayed around
<samueldr>
well, ergo keyboards may be more ISO than you think
<samueldr>
depending what they do exactly
<ashkitten>
hmm i wonder if i could replace the pinebook keyboard with an iris somehow
<samueldr>
the depth of it is likely to be the main issue
<ashkitten>
why would i pay to know when i can assume for free
<samueldr>
:)
<__monty__>
E13 will be larger as long as it doesn't exist? Hmm, what a weird ISO standard.
<samueldr>
oops
<samueldr>
E14 will be larger if E13 is not there
<__monty__>
Hmm, so the apple keyboard's not ISO?
<__monty__>
Right Cmd is left of the right Option.
<samueldr>
I believe only by the position of the yeah
<__monty__>
Heh, After the initial "down for everybody or just me ermahgehrd Slack is down" drop, productivity increases linearly throughout the duration of the outage.