<pie_[bnc]>
but batteries included is part of that
<pie_[bnc]>
though i still havent looked at flakes
<pie_[bnc]>
oh no i tried to not get into this right now
<elvishjerricco>
something something nixpkgs should've been built around the module system something something
<pie_[bnc]>
im not sure about that
<pie_[bnc]>
i kind of like that we have both
<pie_[bnc]>
you can put stuff that can be handled cleanly independently in the pure nixpkgs set
<elvishjerricco>
I'm not sure what that means
<pie_[bnc]>
with a cleaner constructive functional style
<pie_[bnc]>
well, not the whole mergey stuff, im not being clear i know
<pie_[bnc]>
gchristensen: all hypothetical, i have no experience maintaining large functional codebases; i think we need to find a way to _accept_ peoples usecases without cluttering up core, but without saying its their problem (if its not super specific to them). yes more maintenance load and or bitrot, but its not like old dark corners actively break the rest of the system. something like NUR but officially sanctioned and integrated, maybe some
<pie_[bnc]>
sort of staging area. something something driveby contributions.
<pie_[bnc]>
yes we do have a problem with a lot of unmaintained packages for example, but at least those are there and someone can come by and decide to pick them up at some point? or have some driveby fixed if they happen to need it
<gchristensen>
pie_[bnc]: I disagree. bitrotten, broken corners harms Nixpkgs significantly
<pie_[bnc]>
hm ok
<gchristensen>
because nixpkgs needs to be able to evolve, and if we keep brokenness around, it is much more difficult to evolve the codebase.
<pie_[bnc]>
so...a staging area?
<gchristensen>
because users don't want to be in a mess of a codebase where whether something works or not is a 50/50 shot (or, more likely even less good chances if we keep broken stuff, since broken stuff will stick around and accumulate)
<pie_[bnc]>
hm
<gchristensen>
accept usecases yes, allow people to accomplish their goal, yes, but the thing to accomplish their goal doesn't need to be in nixpkgs
<gchristensen>
the ability to accomplish it yes, but not the actual implementation
<pie_[bnc]>
sure, so thats why overridability is important
<pie_[bnc]>
theres also the fact that i want to be able to patch over upstream without necessarily having to actually edit my local nixpkgs tree and diverge from upstream
<gchristensen>
and ultimately it is OK for somebody to need to fork nixpkgs, IMO
<pie_[bnc]>
but im not sure if that fits in with the baove
<pie_[bnc]>
oops :D
<gchristensen>
all the other distros have this huge advantage of users being able to destroy whatever order and organization and abstraction upstream provides, and we generally have much less flexibility in that regard out of the box
<gchristensen>
and it is okay that someusers will need to do this
<pie_[bnc]>
do they need to though?
<gchristensen>
they might!
<pie_[bnc]>
im not saying prohibit it, but it might be reasonable to decrease the necessity
<pie_[bnc]>
might also let nixpkgs evolve easier
<pie_[bnc]>
but im getting very hypothetical
<gchristensen>
usually makes it harder to evolve, since you're making more of the internal state external API
<pie_[bnc]>
hm
<samueldr>
maybe the external nixos module story needs to be publicized more
<gchristensen>
but since Nix and NixOS are evaluated, built, and then deployed that is generally more okay than other distros, too
<gchristensen>
whereas it is much more difficult for another distro to make big changes, since it happens live, baby
<pie_[bnc]>
hypothetical statement: nixpkgs is too big and theres a bunch of internal apis already
<samueldr>
nixpkgs is big (too? dunno) and there is a bunch of internal apis
<gchristensen>
yep
<pie_[bnc]>
buti dont offhand think its reasonable to think about making it smaller, just easier to manage it
<pie_[bnc]>
(i have no concrete proposal)
<gchristensen>
supper time :)
<samueldr>
maybe also figure out a good "well known" pattern for external modules for those bits that are too nixos unfriendly
<gchristensen>
(that is my concrete proposal)
<gchristensen>
samueldr: yeah!
<samueldr>
and with a well put example of how to make versioned modules
<samueldr>
since external modules may stop evaluating from misc. changes in nixpkgs and it's initially hard to reason about how to do that
<pie_[bnc]>
this is not to say that we shouldnt have more well defined apis though right? <gchristensen> usually makes it harder to evolve, since you're making more of the internal state external API
<pie_[bnc]>
sigh
<infinisil>
gchristensen: (currently writing a reply to mkaito on reddit)
<pie_[bnc]>
all reddit links should use old.reddit.com :P
<samueldr>
that's, like, your opinion
<samueldr>
(but I agree)
<pie_[bnc]>
wHY IS EVERYONE GOING TO THESE HORRIBLE SPARSE LAYOUTS
<pie_[bnc]>
its gotta be something to do with advertising somehow but i see no ad-oh right thats the blocker...
<samueldr>
w h i t e s p a c e i s g o o d f o r l e g i b i l i ty
<samueldr>
it's mostly a "build touch first" mentality that stops at "touch first"
<samueldr>
pepper in whatever flavour interface apple is building at the moment
<infinisil>
pie_[bnc]: Oh yeah, my reddit.com defaults to the old one so I didn't notie
<infinisil>
notice
<pie_[bnc]>
samueldr: ok that was my hypothesis 1.5
<gchristensen>
infinisil: ok, I merged their amazon-init PR
<infinisil>
gchristensen: Yup saw that :)
<gchristensen>
:)
<infinisil>
Ugh, but that background-image thing is annoying
<gchristensen>
IMO, it is a clear-cut thing we should not do
<infinisil>
Should we just deprecate that functionality? Or provide an off-switch perhaps?
<gchristensen>
off-switch seems good, alternative seems good
<gchristensen>
it is too hard to tell if something should be executed, imo
<infinisil>
I mainly just don't like how that functionality is implemented in general
<gchristensen>
yeah, that is a thing for sure
<infinisil>
It's being done in an apply, and the change is made to an untyped value
<infinisil>
(the services.xserver.desktopManager.session option doesn't have a type..)
<gchristensen>
cool cool
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<evanjs>
re the reddit post from infinisil -- OTOH, I'm coming from Gentoo and things just seem so much easier for me :D
<evanjs>
xmonad + etc config is especially easier. haskell stuffs on gentoo is a nightmare imo
<evanjs>
all I need now is free space....
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<infinisil>
evanjs: I wish xmonad would be compiled at nixos build time!
<infinisil>
I think currently it's not
<infinisil>
Yeah
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<evanjs>
wait it's not? Well either way, still works better than it did before for me :P
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<evanjs>
Right I remember our conversation a while back now..... yeah blah. that'd be nice. 100000x better than the stack setup I had on gentoo, though :D ... and later nix x_x
<colemickens>
I'm having a fun week - first, having my apartment buildign fire alarm go off repeatedly with no update on what's going on, find out they've had to turn it off, and now come to find out they've likely messed with internal wiring that means my supposed gigabit Internet has been operating at 100mbit for a month or longer it seems.
<colemickens>
Unifi used to do a test every hour so you'd have a nice graph. I still get every 12 hours so I have some data at least.
<colemickens>
another thing to add to my upcoming grafana dashboard
<jackdk>
Come to AU sometime. Our fire season is just getting started and it's already been awful and the best internet I can get is ADSL2+. (You have my sympathies with that fire alarm, though. I'd much rather slow internet and no false fire alarms.)
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<srhb>
Any idea what "rid" is in the output of lldpctl? Google fails me.
<kraem>
eyJhb: i saw that the other day. really want to do that whenever i have time over :)
<kraem>
anyone running mbsync? i am trying to switch over from running only neomutt but i can't figure out a good alternative to the env var substitution i did in my muttrc (to not have to expose all email addresses in dotfile repo)
<gchristensen>
what is your mail host?
<kraem>
trying out mailbox.org for now
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<eyJhb>
kraem: fidling with the Bencode parser jsut for fun
<eyJhb>
But I will prop die in a minute or so
<kraem>
:P
<kraem>
gchristensen: any tips? still deciding between fastmail, mailbox and hushmail
<gchristensen>
I don't have any suggestions. I was super annoyed with mbsync and offlineimap and someone suggested a new one I'd never heard of but it only works on google
<gchristensen>
I use webmail now like a chump
<qyliss>
I use mbsync and like it a lot
<qyliss>
I don't mind exposing my email addresses, though.
<gchristensen>
exposing?
<qyliss>
kraem was saying they didn't want their dotfiles repo to expose their email addresses
<gchristensen>
ahh missed that
<qyliss>
kraem: one thing you could do would be to build the configuration file with Nix, and have a secrets.nix file that you don't make public
<qyliss>
your email addresses would be in the Nix store, but I doubt that matters for this use case
<kraem>
qyliss: the thought struck me, but i feel like i would need to move all my dotfiles into nix for consistency then :)
<qyliss>
not a bad thing to do
<qyliss>
you could also just introduce some other build step for dotfiles
<qyliss>
a makefile would do
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<kraem>
i want to migrate everything to nix.. just need to find the time :)
<kraem>
makefile is not a bad idea for the time being though.. thanks!
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<Taneb>
Advice: when you reboot a machine over ssh, make sure you're in the correct terminal
<gchristensen>
lol.
<kraem>
perfect :)
<gchristensen>
also important, don't `shutdown now` a remote system you don't have remote hands or a PDU on by mistake
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<cransom>
i worked with people who shared some terminal settings that would set their terms to very unpleasant colors if they logged into production so they might not paste some detrimental dev commands into the wrong environment.
<gchristensen>
nice
<gchristensen>
`iterm2` could do fancy things like that on macOS
<thefloweringash>
tilix has the feature too. it reminds me a lot iterm2
<ajs124>
Seems like spammers have found the maintainers list. Took them long enough.
<ajs124>
Ye. Just got my first e-mail ever (well, others might have been rejected, I guess) to the address I listed in there. It's on a wildcard/catchall domain, so I just listed nix@
<cransom>
lame tools that don't understand/implement ipv6 :(
<ajs124>
cransom: which ones did you run into? Every now and then I try to use ipcalc to do some IP math and it's like "ipv6? never heard of that".
<cransom>
ajs124: the site that ar mentioned, http://ping.pe
<infinisil>
I present to you, one of the most useless features of nixbot
<viric>
It happens with RT_. I press Shift, then R, then T, then _, then I release R, release T, release _.
<samueldr>
oh, alternative layouts could accidentally be made worse by us-centrist view of keyboard matrices I guess
<viric>
I'd expect that Shift goes with its own single line, out of matrix. That's what would be best.
<viric>
Otherwise the thing seems tuned for those who don't keep shift pressed.
<samueldr>
you know that would be too easy :)
<samueldr>
though surprised that a name brand like logitech would have that much issues, but at the same time, if it's R+T+_ that are kept pressed, that is more understandable
emily is now known as ematrix
emilazy is now known as emily
emily is now known as emilazy
<ashkitten>
that's why i love keyboards where i can write my own firmware
<viric>
whatever they do, I think they should *drop* keycodes instead of typing them in the wrong order pressed
ematrix is now known as emily
<viric>
ashkitten: you need your own wires too, for that Shift key :)
<samueldr>
I think it ends up being a side-effect of the key being "unghosted", no?
<joepie91>
viric: does this happen everywhere? because I've had this problem with *specific sites* (looking at you, Google, Twitter) that do shitty JS event handling
<viric>
joepie91: everywhere.
<joepie91>
and when I type too fast, they can't keep up and start mangling my input
<joepie91>
ah, ok
<viric>
samueldr: yes, of course
<samueldr>
so since it's a side effect, it must be hard/impossible to strip those out instead
<samueldr>
the cost of that would outweigh actually not cheaping out on actual wires/diodes for the matrix :)
<viric>
2KRO is a must for a fast typist. BUT one can be a fast typist with Shift pressed AS WELL!
<samueldr>
"but actually, no, you see, you should be using caps lock for string of caps" /pedant (not actually me)
<samueldr>
and I say "not actually me" since I press shift for string of caps :)
<viric>
samueldr: I tried those 6KRO, 10KRO whatever and they mean that only for gaming keys.
<samueldr>
aw
<samueldr>
but I like gaming with #1234567890-=qwertyuiop[]\asdfghjkl;`zxcvbnm,./
<viric>
none of those gaming keybaords work fine for typing, I found, though. Too long a key ride down. I haven't tried Mechanical for the noise.
<samueldr>
the only thing I can say is that I bought a couple K360 since I liked it enough, at a bargain price
<samueldr>
I should be good for a while
<viric>
do you have a US layout?
<samueldr>
I use the "old" french canadian layout
<viric>
Can you press shift+r+t at once, and it types RT (before releasing any)?
<samueldr>
but the keyboard itself is the US qwertty 104 key layout
<samueldr>
yes,
<viric>
That's good!
<samueldr>
and SHIFT+R+T+[.>] seems to type those in order
<viric>
amazing
<eyJhb>
Ergodox-EZ Is still a pretty nice one
<viric>
I can't do "Ergo..." keyboards because I don't type in a traditional typewritter style.
<samueldr>
I don't think the K360 is actually part of their cheap lineup of keyboard, more that it's an older model
<samueldr>
viric: ah, I see, a goold ol' user of the press keys in a hapazard fashion quickly until words form?
<cransom>
i typed on a default mac keyboard for a long time, but i've gone to a split keyboard with mechanical keys and the mechanical switches just feel nice to type on, even if travel is longer.
<viric>
samueldr: yes
<viric>
:)
<samueldr>
same here
<pie_[bnc]>
clever: now why does this remind me of the portal robots
<viric>
cransom: isn't it loud?
<cransom>
viric: depends on the keyboard, some use switches that are super clackety and yeah, them are loud. these aren't silent (they use cherry browns), but they do make ones specifically to keep quiet in an office setting.
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