gchristensen changed the topic of #nixos-chat to: NixOS but much less topical || https://logs.nix.samueldr.com/nixos-chat
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<Diogenes-> So looking into moving to NL
<Diogenes-> Should be interesting getting a shot term visa and then a long term visa
<joepie91> Diogenes-: prepare to have to learn Dutch :)
<Diogenes-> joepie91: Already learning it. Basic vocab isn't awful. Like a mix of English and German
<Diogenes-> You're in NL right?
<joepie91> yeah
<Diogenes-> Neat. I know an oddly large amount of people there now for some reason haha
<joepie91> heh
<joepie91> Diogenes-: might have something to do with NixOS originating from NL ;)
<joepie91> though OTOH, most of the NixOS assembly at 36C3 was Germans, I think...
<Diogenes-> Haha, nah completely separate from nixOS. :P
<adisbladis> joepie91: The selection might be biased because it was _in_ germany ;)
<joepie91> adisbladis: there's plenty of Dutch people there though!
<adisbladis> And at least 3 swedish!
<joepie91> lol
<samueldr> I don't think there's many from N/A^W out-of-europe that went to 36C3, so a bit self-selecting
<adisbladis> samueldr: I know a fair bit of ppl going there from asia
<adisbladis> Less so from NA
<samueldr> oh well :)
<samueldr> out-of-eurasia then
<joepie91> seemed to be mostly europeans to me
<joepie91> well, and Russians, depending on whether you count those as Europeans or not
<samueldr> now don't start with neo-zaelander or australians
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<Diogenes-> Oh fringe benefit to living in NL
<Diogenes-> I can finally start going to CCC
<samueldr> (I think) I would love to go, but dang that's an expensive trip
<adisbladis> samueldr: It's the one trip per year I don't miss
<samueldr> as of now, nixcon is it for me
<joepie91> Diogenes-: \o/
<joepie91> we have plenty of other neat events in the area as well :)
<Diogenes-> Heheh
<joepie91> including a hacker camp in NL every 4 years!
<joepie91> and many smaller events
<adisbladis> The best part about NL is that they have quick trains to germany ;)
* adisbladis hides
<joepie91> lol
<samueldr> a good replica: that's great because who would live in germany? ;)
<samueldr> (I have no real horse in this battle)
<joepie91> samueldr: did you mean 'retort'? :P
<samueldr> yes
<samueldr> currently holding another discussion in french at the same time
<joepie91> heh
<samueldr> réplique, retort / réplique, replica
<Diogenes-> Haha
<joepie91> yeah
<joepie91> "repliek" in Dutch
<joepie91> figured it'd be something similar in French
<joepie91> (although few people still say "repliek")
<thefloweringash> "neo-zaelander" -- someone remembered we exist!
<samueldr> apparently
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<gchristensen> I think I might try implementing something like TAGS for r13y
<gchristensen> mostly because I'm annoyed it is running two builds: gcc and llvm, both with only a few cores... and TONS of idle cores.
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<thefloweringash> is there a "grafana for very small displays"?
<gchristensen> say more?
<thefloweringash> I have a little framebuffer (128x160) that it would be neat to show some stats on, every pixel is precious
<gchristensen> cool
<gchristensen> I think there is a CLI utility which uses extended ascii character sets to make little spark lines
<gchristensen> oh cool
<thefloweringash> I'm running sway on it at the moment (at 0.5 scale), I can probably use regular drawing libraries
<gchristensen> does it come over IRC properly? ▁▂▂▃▃▄▄▅
<drakonis> no colors here
<gchristensen> well then maybe you actually want grafana then, in full screen mode
<drakonis> freenode probably strips them?
<thefloweringash> I was looking at things like gkrellm2 or conky, but they look like a lot of effort to get custom widgets from prometheus
<gchristensen> I didn't try sending color :)
<thefloweringash> if I can get a web browser to build I'll see how grafana looks
<pie_[bnc]> #justgentoo^Wnixos problems
<drakonis> this is amazing.
<drakonis> is it bad that i want to see how using guix is like?
<gchristensen> go for it! :)
<infinisil> Maybe I should implement a karma system where the more karma you gave, the less your karma is worth heh
<pie_[bnc]> infinisil: or just give it a timeout
<pie_[bnc]> drakonis: and then steal all the features
<infinisil> I think I have a timeout, but it's like max 5 karma per minute or so
<drakonis> there's a lot of features to be stolen here
<drakonis> there's a supernova of things that can be taken here
<drakonis> ie: not depending on bash to operate on files
<drakonis> all this grafting bizniz
<drakonis> the whole user experience being a marked improvement
<drakonis> faster feature iteration
<pie_[bnc]> nixos sucks
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<infinisil> To debug problems: I need to know what you did, what you expect it to do, why you expect it to do that, and how you determined that it didn't do that
<infinisil> I think with these questions answered, debugging problems will be much faster in many cases
<drakonis> was that intended to be sent here?
<infinisil> Yeah
<infinisil> Just a conclusion a came to from being annoying about playing support in #nixos
<infinisil> s/a came/i came
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<eyJhb> infinisil: I have considered having a Github repo, for when people ask me questions
<eyJhb> And if they are stupid or there is a need for more information, then just link them to that, which has a template ....
<joepie91> infinisil: eyJhb: I present to you: https://www.mikeash.com/getting_answers.html
<joepie91> (a much less abrasive version of "how to ask smart questions")
<joepie91> (MUCH less)
<eyJhb> So, just send them that joepie91 ? ;)
<eyJhb> Or link it in the template :p
<joepie91> eyJhb: I usually just send it to them, and point at the specific relevant bit
<joepie91> that having been said: people who ask terrible questions are often unwilling to read something first
<joepie91> (which is often why they are asking the terrible question to begin with)
<joepie91> so the success rate is not as high as I'd like :P
<eyJhb> Yup, and unwilling to Google themselves because "it's just easier asking you"
* pie_[bnc] is still guilty of this
<eyJhb> GET OUT
<eyJhb> :(
<pie_[bnc]> gotta fight it
<pie_[bnc]> why. do. i. have. so. much. stuff. open.
<MichaelRaskin> eyJhb: I guess if you answer by requesting more information in the form of requesting to perform point 4 from «Getting answers», this might change the effort balance?
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<Synthetica> Now that it is 2020: are there plans to set `pythonPackages = python3Packages`?
<MichaelRaskin> Isn't this a bad idea?
<__monty__> But even fsf says "python" should always point to python 2.
<MichaelRaskin> Dropping pythonPackages alias at all might make sense, though
<MichaelRaskin> Synthetica: maybe write an RFC?
<MichaelRaskin> (for dropping the alias)
<Synthetica> __monty__: Does that hold even into a future where Python2 is no longer supported?
<MichaelRaskin> Yes
<qyliss> The FSF?
<MichaelRaskin> I guess PSF
<Synthetica> MichaelRaskin: Might be a good idea
<__monty__> Ah, yes, typo/brainfart.
<MichaelRaskin> There were enough things done wrong by Python upstream, that Python3 is now forever version-suffixed
<__monty__> That's what happens when you try to slap an existing name on a different programming language.
<drakonis1> how different is it tho?
<__monty__> Enough.
<__monty__> It's almost perl6 different.
<qyliss> really?
<MichaelRaskin> I don't think it is _that_ different
<__monty__> According to arguments I've read, yes.
<qyliss> i thought it was largely just strings behaved differently, and print is a function
<MichaelRaskin> Why they did not keep unicode as a Unicode string name is beyond my comprehension
<__monty__> The latter isn't even a thing thanks to __future__.
<drakonis1> its really not that different lol
<drakonis1> its like a major version bump in software
<drakonis1> the overall language hasnt changed
<__monty__> Yeah, that's why the transition's taking a decade.
<Synthetica> __monty__: I guess you're refering to PEP 394?
<drakonis1> it didnt take a decade though
<drakonis1> the libraries worth caring about have already transitioned into python 3
<pie_[bnc]> give it a few more yyears
<__monty__> drakonis1: Google hasn't.
<drakonis1> oh?
<drakonis1> say what now?
<__monty__> Synthetica: looks like it.
<Synthetica> Because that explicitly leaves room for change: "This recommendation will be periodically reviewed over the next few years, and updated when the core development team judges it appropriate. As a point of reference, regular maintenance releases for the Python 2.7 series will continue until January 2020."
<drakonis1> they axed python 2 when everyone did
<__monty__> Synthetica: Yep, so it'll hold until it's revised. Not nixpkgs' job to revise it.
<drakonis1> hmm no i read it wrong
<drakonis1> gee thanks phrasing
<drakonis1> its basically "we're going to support it as long as they're paying"
<drakonis1> thanks google?
<drakonis1> same as red hat it seems
<__monty__> This is all the evidence I need to stand by saying python3 is a different language. Feel free to remain unconvinced.
<qyliss> Google not wanting to upgrade is evidence it's a different language?
<__monty__> No, enough resources being dedicated to avoiding moving on to python 3 is evidence.
<__monty__> Pypy is another interesting case. rpython's not ever gonna move to python3.
<qyliss> That doesn't have anything to do with the language, necessarily
<qyliss> But perhaps we mean different things by language
<__monty__> Maybe we do. If it was the same language I'd expect everyone to move on without drama but there's tons of drama.
<qyliss> Well, suppose the only changes were a huge overhaul of the standard library
<qyliss> That wouldn't be a different language, but people still wouldn't want to upgrade
<__monty__> If it was a big enough improvement they would.
<qyliss> sure
<__monty__> Python 3 is *clearly* not from my pov.
<qyliss> suppose the changes were absolutely dreadful
<qyliss> it still wouldn't be a different language
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<qyliss> My point is that people not wanting to upgrade doesn't make it a different language.
<__monty__> People not wanting/being able to upgrade even though support is stopping isn't the same as "people being babies about updating to a new version."
<qyliss> I didn't say it was.
<qyliss> I said it didn't necessarily make it a different language
<averell> i wonder how long the rust people will keep the (<2018) edition thing going
<__monty__> Is that their indicator for how far the compiler is backwards compatible?
<averell> yes, that was a major change, and you can just select it in your config. they have more small stuff, like a lot of people using nightly which has special features too.
<__monty__> That was actually really hard to work with as a non rustacean.
<__monty__> A project that was written using nightly, didn't work with stable and didn't work with the current nightly... : /
<averell> to be fair their tooling is great, it's easy to get an exact version. even the rust nix overlay :) but yeah it can be annoying
<LnL> it's great, but I agree nightly should be considered much more of a tradeoff
<__monty__> Or people should at least mention *which* version of nightly works.
<LnL> that trend will probably also decrease as rust stabilises more and more
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<qyliss> The 2015 edition will be supported forever, supposedly
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<MichaelRaskin> Of course, per-crate granularity of edition choice makes it possible that a migration happens anyway
<gchristensen> yeah that is really good
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<eyJhb> Anybody up for recommending a good film? Sci-Fi, Romance, Drama, Comedy, something in the direction? (not all combined)
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<gchristensen> seen Primer?
<Synthetica> El Camino if you've seen Breaking Bad
<__monty__> Galaxy Quest, Ice Pirates, Spaceballs, aka the classics : )
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<eyJhb> They are all before my time __monty__ ! - gchristensen nope, but I might have to add that to my alone list :p Didn't win the lady over.
<eyJhb> I think we might go with El Camino, as we have both seen the series
<gchristensen> fair enough
<gchristensen> definitely, definitely watch it though
<__monty__> eyJhb: Give them a chance. Thank me later.
<eyJhb> Even if the trailer is somewhat, very silent
<eyJhb> gchristensen: Will do! Adding it to bookmarks, and hoping I won't forget it :p
<eyJhb> __monty__: I really really should!
<gchristensen> wait eyJhb you haven't seen *any* of the movies __monty__ listed?
<gchristensen> oh dear
<eyJhb> Nope, none
<eyJhb> I have meant to see Spaceballs a couple of times, but never goten aronud to it :/
<gchristensen> ...
<MichaelRaskin> If you want to be surprised by how many things people haven't seen, you can ask _me_ whether I have seen some movies
<eyJhb> MichaelRaskin: have you seen them?
<MichaelRaskin> I haven't seen any of the ones mentioned in this conversation.
<gchristensen> :o
<gchristensen> y'all.
<MichaelRaskin> And not going to!
<gchristensen> okay :)
<eyJhb> Welllllll
<MichaelRaskin> I am pretty sure I have seen zero movies in the last four years
<eyJhb> That's the same for me I guess
<eyJhb> Ohh, I have seen waaay to many, but mostly romance
<gchristensen> obviously no obligation to watch them, but they're pretty good :)
<eyJhb> MichaelRaskin: why no movies ?
<eyJhb> gchristensen: well, at some point I should... But when, that is the best question
<eyJhb> Also, four exams this month :|
<__monty__> Ah, good idea GC, misleading him publicly so he's not suspicious while we plan a raid. I just found my Clockwork Orange eye clamps, you bring the projector? Let's discuss further in private though.
<gchristensen> lol
<MichaelRaskin> eyJhb: consuming something which has a meaning, at a fixed speed, with undivided attention?
<eyJhb> MichaelRaskin: has a meaning and fixed speed doesn't seem that bad
<eyJhb> Undicided attention, that I cnanot do
<__monty__> MichaelRaskin: So you prefer games?
<MichaelRaskin> Undivided attention and fixed speed can even work for me. Eating mangos is more or less like that
<MichaelRaskin> __monty__: sometimes (and very often use the Wrong™, like I am pretty sure that beyond-the-screen-edge sniping is not how Plazma Burst was supposed to be played)
<MichaelRaskin> Also, large amounts of texts, some of them I probably shouldn't actually waste time on
<eyJhb> MichaelRaskin: what DO you waste time on then? :D
<MichaelRaskin> On reading texts, as I said!
<MichaelRaskin> And sometimes on games
<gchristensen> MichaelRaskin: you're wonderful, I like you and I'm glad you're here :)
<__monty__> MichaelRaskin: And there's no external reasons? Like, I could imagine visually impaired people not liking movies as much.
<MichaelRaskin> Also on some low pleasures, be it porn or eating mangos.
<MichaelRaskin> It's kind of complicated to say if I am visually impaired
<MichaelRaskin> +6/+0, if you know what I mean
<MichaelRaskin> Well, maybe not really +6. maybe it is +4
<MichaelRaskin> At that skew it starts depending on too many things
<MichaelRaskin> I would say it is more that I am really bad at reading body language/emotions/whatever
<eyJhb> And so movies are no fun?
<MichaelRaskin> Reading a script of a movie would be a strictly superior experience, probably
<MichaelRaskin> As I said, if I need to process meaningful information, I'd better be able to speed up low-density parts
<eyJhb> Forward function?
<eyJhb> x4 the speed? :D
<eyJhb> I never see actually movies on the TV
<MichaelRaskin> For forward function, I need to know pretty well how much to skip
<MichaelRaskin> I don't think there is any dearth of text content with quality competitive to movies
<__monty__> MichaelRaskin: Do you correct with a single lens? Or glasses with one "fake" glass?
<MichaelRaskin> At some point I was wearing +4/+0 corrective glasses
<MichaelRaskin> Then I gave up on correcting
<MichaelRaskin> I am not a very careful person…
<gchristensen> really?
<MichaelRaskin> Absolutely
<MichaelRaskin> Sometimes seeing nits to pick (sometimes ones with important implications) and being careful about the entirety of text and not missing stupid typos are already two different skills. And I am probably below the average for the second one. Being physically careful is a _set_ of somewhat related skills, at I am just plain fail at a large subset of them.
<gchristensen> gotcha
<MichaelRaskin> At some point I had a small cut on my side, below the shoulder — on the ribcage, not on the arm. I managed to get it from a corner of a piece of furniture
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<__monty__> Please tell me you got it from some weirdly safe piece of furniture like a padded comfy chair?
<MichaelRaskin> Obviously not, I am careless, not fragile
<MichaelRaskin> Accidentally dropping the chairs sometimes happens. Not too often.
<eyJhb> "accidentally", why.. Why are you picking them up all the time?
<MichaelRaskin> I don't need to pick them up to drop them!
<__monty__> : o You make it sound like you're a jedi!
<eyJhb> Wait, what are you doing? It sounds amazing :p
<eyJhb> How many legs do these chais have?
<__monty__> (I assume he meant leaning back in a chair and falling.)
<eyJhb> That sounds even less elegant
<MichaelRaskin> Nope, _that_ does not happen
<__monty__> Then how do you drop chairs without picking them up?
<MichaelRaskin> That would include actual risks of actual injury
<MichaelRaskin> Usually I don't and I try not to. But sometimes I do not leave enough space between my trajectory and a completely unrelated chair, and it turns out there is a negative amount of space
<eyJhb> MichaelRaskin: any infographics on this?
<MichaelRaskin> Well, imagine a person walking. Now put a chair in front of the person. If the person doesn't care and have a remotely acceptable sense of balance, the chair will drop
<__monty__> Ah, and this is a consequence of the vision?
<MichaelRaskin> Nope, this is a consequence of not caring
<MichaelRaskin> I have more or less OK vision on one eye
<eyJhb> So you are more or less kicking chairs MichaelRaskin ?
<MichaelRaskin> Closer to body checking, I guess
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* colemickens thinks cachix has been broken as often as nearly all other broken pkgs he's experienced in the last year
<colemickens> how many different nixpkgs can this shell import :P
<gchristensen> oh no
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