gchristensen changed the topic of #nixos-chat to: NixOS but much less topical || https://logs.nix.samueldr.com/nixos-chat
<pie__> joepie91[m], updated one of my R packages, suddenly a lot of things work better, tfw repo isnt an up to date rolling release
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<pie__> joepie91[m], current rage: plotting package that doesnt support setting log scales on a specific type of plot
<pie__> maybe im just spoiled but thats basic functionality for anything that specializes on this
<pie__> joepie91[m], /me carves "write my own data analysis packages" on todo list
<pie__> kill me
<pie__> some stuff works so well and then theres problems like this
<pie__> im not an expert so maybe im just being spoiled, but coordinate system screwery should be baked in to like...the base levels of something like this i think?
<pie__> features should have checklists for consistency
<pie__> joepie91[m], the hearts on the papercuts thread should be changed to broken hearts
<Ralith> joepie91: are you under the impression that packaging javascript is not a perpetual disaster?
<Ralith> you might change your opinion if you actually tried to build that package from source rather than copping out :P
<Ralith> this is not "language bashing," this is just fact
<Ralith> you're the one who started on about "electron-based things," anyway :P
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<samueldr> "javascript is always a problem, if perhaps not the problem" is language bashing and was what started the thread about language bashing, and imo was unwarranted for in the context
<samueldr> it's quite the leap from "packaging javascript things is a nightmare" to "javascript is the problem"
<gchristensen> samueldr++
<{^_^}> samueldr's karma got increased to 92
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<Ralith> samueldr: "started the thread"? it was the last comment I made on the matter before challenged, and was clearly in the context of packaging challenges
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<pie__> joepie91[m], yesterday i was waiting for my commute train and i started chatting with a guy who was coding on the bench because why not
<pie__> the second thing i did was recommend him a book
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<eyJhb> pie__ because each time I say fun, it is cursed? ;)
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<joepie91[m]> samueldr: IRC bridging doesn't involve the IRC channel being authorative, really; it's represented as a bridge channel that happens to have an 'application service' that talks to IRC and that's responsible for most of the virtual users and messages... so if two Matrix users talk to each other in a bridged channel, they indeed still talk directly via their respective Matrix servers
<joepie91[m]> pie__: lol, nice
<joepie91[m]> also, I know very little about data analysis tooling..
<pie__> im not that good either just, ugh
<pie__> :p rant rant rant i guess
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<etu> Hmm, maybe today is a good day to migrate the laptop to ZFS
<pie___> etu, if you have backups any time is a good timer
<pie___> *time
<pie___> *if you have backups you know you can restore
<etu> Well, it's more if I have the time
<etu> :)
<pie___> ;D
<pie___> etu, you used zfs much yet?
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<etu> pie___: I have stored exactly 0 bytes of data on zfs ever
<etu> And I've created exactly 0 zfs filesystems in my lifespan :p
<etu> So I have a bit of learning to do
<pie___> etu, ok, the man pages are pretty good, and warn about caveats at least most of the time, so its kind of a long reda but i recommend going over at least man zpool once and maybe over most of man zfs (i got lazy at that point)
<pie___> at least, thats what i did
<pie___> arch wiki is usually a good place to check on the side anyway, dont think i did that yet
<gchristensen> etu: https://pthree.org/2012/04/17/install-zfs-on-debian-gnulinux/ run through thiS? you'll be glad you did.
<pie___> and i usually end up googling most specific problems because i cant remember what to check in the man page
<gchristensen> and it means you can create several ZFS filesystems, and put data on it, without reformating anything.
<etu> https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/ZFS -- Seems quite extensive
<pie___> etu, also before i migrated anything i played with some file-backed zpools
<pie___> you can put zfs on a file, its not recommended but it works
<tilpner> etu: Decide where you want encryption before you start the install
<tilpner> I, uhh, didn't
<gchristensen> it is recommended for experimenting
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<pie___> for my data migration because i didnt have a lot of extra hardware lying around i first moved everything to a file backed zpool, transferred it to a raw-disk-backed VM running on my machine, after i got that to boot successfully both in the VM, and then outside, I dd-ed things back to my original disk
<gchristensen> etu: I quite strongly recommend reading through that pthree.org series before you switch. a lot of good stuff in there.
<pie___> gchristensen, right,
<pie___> guess ill check out the pthree stuff too then
<etu> So I may not migrate tonight then :D
<etu> Seems like I have more reading to do first
<pie___> etu, it took me a week of vacation to learn this stuff :( but im slow
<pie___> on the upside, maybe this is something that's not just a fad ;P
<pie___> so itll last a while
<gchristensen> etu: it isn't difficult or complicated, and they have fun exercises. zfs just isn't like a simple FS, though
<pie___> etu, but yeah you can start playing with file backed stuff immediately!
<pie___> well once you know how to :D
<tilpner> etu: These installation pages in their wiki are good too: https://github.com/zfsonlinux/zfs/wiki/Debian-Buster-Encrypted-Root-on-ZFS
* etu just saves all these links down
<pie___> etu, if you have a couple hundred megabytes in /boot free, this is nice to have https://github.com/cleverca22/nixos-configs/blob/master/rescue_boot.nix
<pie___> just import it in your configuration.nix and youll have a live environment you can boot into to dd stuff around or whatever
<pie___> you will have to change the grub entry for zfs though
<pie___> err - if your root is on zfs i mean (which it will be after the migration and maybe you need to fix something, idk)
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<eyJhb> I feel like we should throw a ZFS migration party at some point, seeing as many of us are considering switching
<pie___> heh
<pie___> that would be cute
* eyJhb is not cute, is very scary. \s
<eyJhb> Should prop get my current NixOS installation to function as I want first.... :p
<pie___> eyJhb, i wasnt talking about you :V
<eyJhb> Awww :(
* pie___ puts his "cute" stickers on something else
<pie___> baka
<eyJhb> do they**
<pie___> ok i actually want that but no i was thinking of big black and yellow label maker stickers that literally say CUTE
<eyJhb> We could just call that the migration sticker, for all who have switched to ZFS ;)
<pie___> transitioned to zfs
<eyJhb> No no, forced.
<etu> eyJhb: Then we also could throw NixOS-install parties
<etu> not linux install parties :p
<pie___> Nixos Is Not Linux
<pie___> no wait, I got it: NOLIN: NixOs Linux Is Not
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<eyJhb> etu I want my party then! :p
<eyJhb> Tbh. I would throw anyone a party how throws out Windows :p
<pie___> meh.
<pie___> you can do that once kde stops breaking
<pie___> ok maybe i should try one of those other things
<pie___> ok actually maybe its just nixos
<eyJhb> pie___ what do you run currently?
<pie___> nixos
<pie___> you will tear it out of my cold dead hands
<pie___> XD
<joepie91[m]> etu: there has been an NixOS install party!
<joepie91[m]> a*
<eyJhb> pie___ meant more.. Desktop :p NOw that you mentioun kde
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* joepie91[m] runs NixOS on his desktop...
* Taneb also
* eyJhb walks out
<Taneb> Oh, do you mean what desktop environment do people use?
<Taneb> And in particular pie___
<eyJhb> yes :p
<Taneb> I think everyone in this channel could probably do with a good night's sleep
<eyJhb> It's like.... 4PM? :p
<joepie91[m]> lol
<Taneb> Not necessarily immediately, but in general
<Taneb> (it's quarter past 3PM here, I'm not ready for bed quite yet)
<joepie91[m]> anyway, /me uses KDE
<Taneb> I use Gnome3 on my desktop and KDE on my laptop, but I've not really got the hang of either or messed with them very much
<pie___> joepie91[m], niceee
<pie___> joepie91[m], rename thread to why nixos sucks ;P#
<joepie91[m]> l2ol
<joepie91[m]> nah
<joepie91[m]> lol*
<eyJhb> Should I feel lonely that I use i3-gaps? - Taneb well, you gave me a excuse to sleep, sooo
<Taneb> Clearly I am the universal bedtime arbiter
<eyJhb> Yes. I feel sorry for people not in #nixos-chat, must be tired!
<eyJhb> Damn.. Hoped Github just used UUID4 for Gists IDs...
<joepie91[m]> eyJhb: there are multiple ID schemes in use for gists
<eyJhb> joepie91[m] care to elaborate? Talking about the URL
<joepie91[m]> they expand it as they run out of key space
<joepie91[m]> eyJhb: and they used to have a reaaaaally small space
<eyJhb> Yup, that is also what I gathered so far, but they aren't incremental
<joepie91[m]> anymore
<joepie91[m]> the first iteration was
<eyJhb> And that is basically what Gitlab does right now, which would be nice if they stopped doing
<eyJhb> As it would not allow iteration, plus.. Secret snippets
* joepie91[m] considers iteration a feature
<eyJhb> Well, not if you want to create unlisted snippets. Wouldn't really call it a 'nice' feature in this case
<joepie91[m]> I'm generally not a fan of 'unlisted' things :)
<joepie91[m]> (outside of very narrow usecases)
<joepie91[m]> they have a tendency of being overestimated in their level of security, by users
<eyJhb> Unlisted shouldn't be confidential things, but e.g. sharing snippets for currently running CTFs
<joepie91[m]> you know that, I know that
<joepie91[m]> most users do not
<joepie91[m]> which is why I don't like it
<joepie91[m]> footguns are bad etc. :)
<eyJhb> But, should a feature not exists because of ignorant users?
<joepie91[m]> eyJhb: I really object to the use of the term "ignorant" there, it implies blame on the part of users
<joepie91[m]> which is precisely the kind of mindset that produces these sort of unsafe systems to begin with
<joepie91[m]> humans make mistakes and underestimate impact of things that are not their specialization; that is not "ignorance", that's completely normal human behaviour
<joepie91[m]> if your system is not designed against that, it's frankly shit and indeed should not exist in that state
<joepie91[m]> to somebody who doesn't specialize in security, if something says "secret" and on cursory inspection they can't see a way for other people to discover it, it seems a perfectly plausible claim (and rightfully so) that they will take for truth
<joepie91[m]> and you need a hell of a lot of specialized knowledge already to even see that it might not be as secret as implied
<joepie91[m]> it's not reasonable to expect everybody to have that knowledge
<eyJhb> That is why it is actually called, unlisted, which does not imply that it is secret at all ,but not publicly listed. Secret gists are private to your own user
<eyJhb> So I would still blame it on the end user, and having unlisted gists which are not incremental, should suffice. Having to brute that kind of keyspace without GIthub, Gitlab, etc. knowing and blocking is implausible
* joepie91[m] uploaded an image: Selection_001.png (8KB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/v1/download/alternanet.fr/DokFSQyIhYkswDZCuEVJWSDt >
<joepie91[m]> that produces an unlisted gist.
<joepie91[m]> so no, it is not called "unlisted", it is called "secret".
<joepie91[m]> like is the case for almost every site that offers unlisted things.
<joepie91[m]> and even if it were called "unlisted", that is still a term with a fuzzy meaning
<eyJhb> joepie91[m] oh. I am mixing GItlab and Github actions together... Sorry
<joepie91[m]> and as such needs to be explained.
<eyJhb> Having public, secret and unlisted should be good in my opinion. Holding each users hand all the way, in all kinds of environment, and in dev environments.. I don't see the need for that
<eyJhb> More mindless websites, which are not intended for e.g. devs, maybe
<eyJhb> Even pastebin provides this
<joepie91[m]> you don't see the need because you understand the difference between these things.
<joepie91[m]> that's a bad way to assess necessities :)
<joepie91[m]> never use yourself as a benchmark when it comes to UX
<joepie91[m]> and contrary to popular assumption, developers are not in fact perfect creatures that understand everything and make no mistakes
<joepie91[m]> UX and safe interfaces matter just as much for them as for any other human
<joepie91[m]> they just have a different specialization, that's all
<samueldr> developers are terrible at UX
<gchristensen> horrible!
<samueldr> and there when I wrote this I forgot about CLI interfaces :)
<Ralith> one of the nice things about a CLI is it drastically reduces the space of things you can get wrong
<samueldr> not sure, putting FS manipulation next to system commands and all my other tools is a great way to ^R into the wrong command
<Ralith> it certainly has its own issues
<joepie91[m]> Ralith: dunno about that, it tends to create a lot of 'soft wrongs', ie. uncertainty with the user as to whether what they are doing is going to have the intended consequence....
<joepie91[m]> due to the lack of visualization of said consequences
<Ralith> that's fair
<joepie91[m]> and while this is not universal to all CLI implementations, it is a widespread problem on Linux: everything is a big string
<joepie91[m]> which means lots of possibilities for failing integration points because two tools delimit their input/output in a different way, serialize it slightly differently, etc.
<joepie91[m]> I think only powershell has tried to address this
<eyJhb> joepie91[m] But I will never agree with you, seeing as it basically is catering to stupid... A function might always be used wrong, that doesn't mean it does not have its valid uses - and yup, developers are horrible at UI
<Ralith> that's the only effort I'm aware of, not sure how well it works for them
<Ralith> "everything is a string", terrible as it is, is arguably still an improvement over no composability whatsoever
<Ralith> eyJhb: it is the responsibility of the author of an interface to structure it such that users naturally arrive at correct use
<Ralith> this applies to both APIs and GUIs :p
<joepie91[m]> eyJhb: "catering to stupid" is yet another of those statements that are based on the unspoken assumption that your knowledge constitutes "smart" and non-overlapping knowledge of others constitutes "ignorant"
<joepie91[m]> I hope I don't have to explain why that is an unproductive and generally unpleasant attitude :)
<eyJhb> Ralith well, that is not really the argument. I am just saying, it has its use, and is really useful. And implementing it just because "it _might_ be implemented in a way, where some users use it wrong", is always a weak argument
<samueldr> if I make a [secret] button that is actually [unlisted] it's bad because it implies better secrecy than it actually has; even if the target demography should know it's unlisted
<eyJhb> joepie91[m] well, ignoring it instead of actually just takin the argument as what is generally implies, would be more constructive :)
<Ralith> eyJhb: there are certainly times when it is better not to expose a hypothetically useful feature than to expose it in a way that will tend to result in misuse
<Ralith> of course you should try to have the best of both worlds, but that is not always easy to do
<eyJhb> Ralith of course, but in this case, as long as we do no use incremental IDs and make it long enough, the actual downside of it is neglectable, or non-exsistent
<joepie91[m]> I strongly disagree.
<eyJhb> Talking bad designs, cannot help but tink of this treasure - https://imgur.com/gallery/YU6EA
<eyJhb> joepie91[m] which part?
<joepie91[m]> URLs frequently leak
<eyJhb> THat is a hole other discussion then
<joepie91[m]> "the actual downside of it is neglectable, or non-exsistent"
<eyJhb> Then you cannot create anything, that is safe, without requring 2FA login, etc.
<joepie91[m]> it's what this discussion started with :)
<eyJhb> You can pretty much say leak in any discussion, and it will not be secure anymore. How would you design a system, to share snippets, without requiring logins then?
<joepie91[m]> that is broadly speaking true, when taken literally, but has no relation to what I just said
<joepie91[m]> the problem here is effectively encoding the key in the URL
<joepie91[m]> since URLs are not generally treated as private information by all the tools that deal with them
<joepie91[m]> it's a similar problem as storing credentials in env vars
<joepie91[m]> it's not a question of whether your credentials are gonna leak, it's a question of when
<joepie91[m]> eyJhb: you are misrepresenting my point.
<eyJhb> I really am not, when we are going to take third party into the discussion
<joepie91[m]> yes, you are.
<joepie91[m]> my point here is "URLs are prone to leakage because they are not considered secret by many things"
<joepie91[m]> you respond with "but if you assume a leak, then anything is insecure!"
<joepie91[m]> which is obviously nonsense, since the problem I described for URLs does not apply to "anything"
<joepie91[m]> you're arguing as if my argument ended at "but it might leak"
<joepie91[m]> and that is a mispreresentation of my actual point
<samueldr> (thinking) SPAs which don't implement html5 history APIs to update URLs are inherently secure since they lack per-ressource URL
<joepie91[m]> samueldr: unfortunately, one of the leak vectors is the user :)
<joepie91[m]> this was a major issue with PHPSESSID query args back in the day
<samueldr> joepie91[m]: is the IRC bridge still lagging?
<joepie91[m]> oh, you said that don't implement history APIs
<joepie91[m]> sorry
<joepie91[m]> I misread
<joepie91[m]> maybe? I don't think so
<samueldr> yeah, and that was definitely a shitpost :)
<samueldr> and no, I think it's not lagging anymore
<eyJhb> Not really a argument at this point, as I know that it isn't the most secure thing, no question, and that it can leak, without a doubt. But this is still catering to stupid/ignorant, even if you do hate these terms. Not implemting something useful like this, because of the relatively small risks, seems stupid. LIke thos pros vs cons, there are more pros than cons I would say
<joepie91[m]> it's lagging a bit, but no more than normal
<joepie91[m]> about 10 seconds or so
<eyJhb> It is begining to sound like people use gists for trade secrets and launch codes
<joepie91[m]> samueldr: anyway, might be accidentally 'secure' in terms of URL leakage, but almost every SPA stuffs credentials in localstorage, so... :)
<samueldr> joepie91[m]: yeah, and just stating it again: that was not genuine observation :D
<joepie91[m]> eyJhb: the risks are not "relatively small". and if you're going to continue calling everybody with knowledge that doesn't overlap yours "stupid" or "ignorant", I don't think there's any point in continuing this discussion, since you evidently don't value diversity in skillsets :)
<joepie91[m]> and so having a discussion about how to design systems for non-experts seems... pointless
<joepie91[m]> samueldr: oh, I know :P but I *have* seen people make genuine arguments of this variety before...
<samueldr> I completely hate SPAs where URLs implementation is half-baked... within those there's GitHub's where some navigation events can accidentally overwrite a pop/push operation meaning you just lost a step in your history
<eyJhb> I think you are actually misinterpretating stupid/ignorant... It is not a global label in this case, that means everyone that doesn't know IT is stupid ignorants idiots, but rather aren't know in that field, and therefore might be ignorant when it comes to IT security. LIke I might be quite ignorant in how building construction works
<samueldr> well, in GitHub's case it's not even an SPA, but an augmented app through turbolinks (iirc) but the point still stands
<samueldr> don't mess with the "click and navigate" workflow of the web please :/
<joepie91[m]> samueldr: twitter has the same issue
<joepie91[m]> samueldr: I have been trying to convince webdevs of this for years now
<joepie91[m]> with very little success
<joepie91[m]> frustratingly, there's an entire crop of webdevs who genuinely do not understand how hyperlinks and forms work
<samueldr> I now implement the only state storage for whatever should be in the URL, in the URL
<joepie91[m]> because they've only ever learned about a browser as a graphical viewport for their custom code
<samueldr> yeah
<joepie91[m]> and they know basically zilch about browser-native features
<joepie91[m]> and this is, depressingly, not an exaggeration
<joepie91[m]> these are people who have been building web stuff professionally for >2 years and I have to explain to them what a form does...
<samueldr> I know, at $CLIENT I shadowed a new dev from out of school and it was... bad
<samueldr> bad since apparently the school they went to is specialized in web dev :/
<samueldr> (school meaning normal college, not some specialized privated school)
<joepie91[m]> samueldr: let me guess, the React/Angular/Vue variety of "web dev"
<samueldr> not even :/ I went to the same school 10 years before and the main issue is the lack of self-actualization in the skill set of the professors
<samueldr> and lack of freedom in the gov. mandated requirements for a comp. sci. diploma at that level
<joepie91[m]> I've found that software dev in formal education is usually either of a) Java, b) general CS and no dev at all really, or c) SPA frameworks
<joepie91[m]> I am not a fan of any of those :P
<joepie91[m]> yeah, that's a common issue
<samueldr> there's some progress though, 10yr ago source code control wasn't a thing at all... not even mentioned as existing
<samueldr> now they use git to commit all and push to a common repo between students to send to the teacher... which in itself is terrible
<cransom> thinking back on it, i realize how little software devs care about the system. our cs department had an AFS setup and really nice permissions. most assignments required working with a partner. if you wanted to share code with someone, you added them rw perms to your work directory. so, soo many paid no attention and just gave the world read/write access to their assignments. because it was easier than
<cransom> typing your partners name.
<Ralith> I learned CS in school; I learned software dev in open source
<joepie91[m]> I'd be fairly okay with CS if it were applied correctly; ie. as strictly a set of base knowledge for a few other fields, and veering off into those other fields, and emphasizing good practices (not just algorithmically) from the start
<joepie91[m]> but as far as I can tell, basically no place does that
<joepie91[m]> and a lot of places sell it as 'become a software developer' but you will learn 0 actual software development skills most of the time
<cransom> i thought it was unimportant at the time, but i took away a lot from those classes. having to write a (naive at least) file system gives you an appreciation for inodes, having to have thought about and reimplement/use algorithms (there haven't been any earth shattering new ones in the last 20 years)
<cransom> it was forced exposure to the entire system, rather than "here's react, here's chrome. go do it. now you are a full stack developer"
<joepie91[m]> I occasionally get to deal with the output of those courses, ie. "developers" who basically don'
<joepie91[m]> oops
<joepie91[m]> I occasionally get to deal with the output of those courses, ie. "developers" who basically don't know anything other than a pile of algorithms and algorithmic complexity and some low-level internals *
<joepie91[m]> and who hyperfocus on those things, at the cost of things that actually matter like maintainability, working together with others, clear issue descriptions, general software reliability, etc.
<cransom> imagine if web dev required the equivalent of a graduate degree.
<joepie91[m]> cransom: right, in that context - get to know bits of the entire stack of stuff - it makes sense
<joepie91[m]> it's just rarely taught that way
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<eyJhb> Ohh I feel like the GDPR douche number 1 currently.
<srhb> eyJhb: You should try taking the mandated government worker course :-P
<joepie91[m]> eyJhb: ?
<eyJhb> srhb I currently have a mom who is complaining quite some about it :p I think AAU will soon force me to take one...
<eyJhb> joepie91[m] basically made a request for deletion of a account, they were not beeing nice, pulled the GDPR card, and now they are working harder to comply with GDPR
<srhb> eyJhb: I was mostly irritated because I basically never deal with any relevant information. I do like the power GDPR gives me :-P
<eyJhb> When did you take it? :p - Haha, I am thinking power outside your own workplace?
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<srhb> Just last month. And yeah, basically as an ordinary person.
<eyJhb> What is the summary of it? ;) - Yeah, it is kinda nice. But not when you have to deal with it..
<eyJhb> The best part is that is also enforces it on anyone offering services to citizens inside EU
<srhb> It's not so bad. The course was mostly to recognize when I should go into GDPR mode and think about how I'm processing or storing data.
<srhb> If I had to take the in-depth one I'd probably be.. More tired :P
<eyJhb> We know how to do this.. Store all medical history of a bunch of citizens on a CD, and send it to China without any forms of protection or encryption!
<srhb> Thankfully that's just the institution dealing with all our DNA samples, what could go wrong.
<eyJhb> Ahh.. I think my boss kinda feel that pain.. :p - Precisely!
<srhb> (I had mine destroyed because I'm annoying like that...)
<eyJhb> Had your.. DNA samples destroyed?
<srhb> Every child born after so-and-so in DK has a blood sample stored.
<eyJhb> Oh, I think with all the health problems I have, they have like.. Liters of that stuff
<srhb> Haha
<srhb> Wait, that's not funny :P
<srhb> The implication was though
<joepie91[m]> eyJhb: ah, lol
<joepie91[m]> eyJhb: seems only reasonable
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<eyJhb> srhb Well I can joke about it today! I have gotten used to the pain of the healthcare not knowing what is wrong :p I have soooo many stories about all that
<joepie91[m]> eyJhb: as an aside, if they could know that you are in the EU (eg. by your IP...) then initially refusing to comply with your request because you didn't mention the GDPR, likely already constitutes a GDPR violation
<eyJhb> But can you request it on sundhed.dk srhb ?
<srhb> eyJhb: I think you have to write SSI directly, but basically yes.
<joepie91[m]> eyJhb: I might join you in the weird-health-issues club, by the way
<srhb> Mind, it does get used for some pretty amazing research
<srhb> Because of the incredibly wide range of tests.
<joepie91[m]> GP is currently a bit baffled by what seems like symptoms of a kidney stone but going on for too long
<eyJhb> joepie91[m] I would guess so too. Basically just got ridiculed by two admins for an hour, being stupid
<srhb> But given their, um, shaky history with personal data...
<joepie91[m]> so, will have to get blood sampled soon...
* joepie91[m] is not looking forward to this, at all
<eyJhb> srhb hmm, might consider doing that. But... Should properly read a litte into it beforehand. .Because it is like, I continue to give them stuff! And, I have no clue how they handle blood donors... :/
<eyJhb> joepie91[m] that does not sound fun either... - I have like problems with both hands, both arms, right sholder, left foot
<eyJhb> And after my last wisdom tooth removal, I basically couldn't open my mouth for 6 to 12 months, don't remember it
<sphalerite> eyJhb: enough information provided to identify you from the health service data in 3… 2… oh there it is
<sphalerite> :D
<srhb> eyJhb: I *think* these days things aren't stored without rather express consent. You can read about the old tests by searching for PKU prøve or something like that.
<eyJhb> sphalerite LIke.. My profile at Github, and that I have stated I work for AAU is enough :%
<joepie91[m]> eyJhb: ah, in my case it's quite mild then :) I'm not experiencing a lot of pain, just mild discomfort... you've almost certainly got it worse
<joepie91[m]> I do have various RSI issues
<eyJhb> srhb Yeah okay, sounds about right. Last time I had to renew my passport, I had to sign something, for them to access my personal data.. :p
<eyJhb> joepie91[m] Think some of mine is RSI too, but, no one knoooows. Given up on doctors and the medical world. After a couple of sessions with various doctors, one start to not think so highly of them. There was however ONE single doctor, that stood out! She was the greatest
<joepie91[m]> eyJhb: there's definitely serious differences in quality of care between doctors. a friend of mine had been seeing crappy doctors for years, until eventually he ran into a good one
<joepie91[m]> but ultimately it's good to remember that doctors are basically human debuggers
<sphalerite> with no access to the source code
<joepie91[m]> except the codebase they're inspecting is ridiculously complex and the guy who wrote it left the company many tens of thousands of years ago and nobody really understands how any of it works and there are quite a few parts that look like they shouldn't work but do
<eyJhb> joepie91[m] yeah, but I think most of them are kinda bad human debuggers :/ Like, there is minimal isolation and trail etc..
<joepie91[m]> in that context, it's only normal that with some problems, doctors eventually decide "fuck, I don't know" :)
<joepie91[m]> oh sure
<joepie91[m]> but are software developers any better? :P
<eyJhb> LIke one doctor, came in, both arms/hands hurt, the doctor told me I had a tennis elbow in my right arm. I asked about the left arm, and he just repeated his previous statement, like it jumps arms and stuff...
* sphalerite considers buying a more ergonomic keyboard
<eyJhb> But that should prop be enough with samueldr logging :p
<eyJhb> sphalerite ergodox-ez!
* etu loves his Ergodox Infinity
<samueldr> eyJhb: ?
<samueldr> ah, you mean you don't want to overshare medical history?
<eyJhb> samueldr public IRC logs. Yuup
<sphalerite> :D
<joepie91[m]> is there an ergodox variety that has a function key row?
<eyJhb> But I think I already overshared like, the .. F.. Out of it :p
<joepie91[m]> (it is bizarrely difficult to find a keyboard with a combination of a) mechanical switches, b) split, and c) function keys)
<eyJhb> Love my 2xERgodox-ez, and cosidering even more..
<etu> I'm thinking of building my own keyboard at some point
<eyJhb> joepie91[m] what do you define as function key row? Like, a extra above the numbers?
<etu> like making my own key layout
<joepie91[m]> eyJhb: F1 - F12, dedicated row
<joepie91[m]> no Fn nonsense :)
<joepie91[m]> I don't really care about the price
<eyJhb> Hmm yeah, not that I know of... Only if you like, replace the number row
<etu> joepie91[m]: When people start building custom split ergonomic stuff, they tend to remove things, and the F-rows goes kinda early
<joepie91[m]> right, that is the problem I am running into
<joepie91[m]> I literally don't care what brand or what the cost is or whatever
<joepie91[m]> I just want one split keyboard with mechanical switches and a dedicated function row lol
<__monty__> joepie91[m]: Don't like the layered approach?
<joepie91[m]> surely there exists one such design one arth
<joepie91[m]> on earth*
<eyJhb> etu so, should we design a keyboard for joepie91[m] in the pricerange of 20.000USD?
<etu> eyJhb: yeah, lets do it!
<joepie91[m]> not for my function and arrow keys, no
<gchristensen> I already bought a few kinesis advantage, 20k isn't so mch more :P
<etu> eyJhb: Split in half, just like the keyboard
<joepie91[m]> lol
<joepie91[m]> actually, gchristensen
<joepie91[m]> do there exist kinesis advantages that can be split into two separately moveable halves
<gchristensen> yes
<etu> gchristensen: There is? Never seen that
<etu> I don't like the shape on the kineses though, I like it flat
<joepie91[m]> because that would be my perfect keyboard I think
<eyJhb> gchristensen you.. You have quite some keyboards if you have spent 20k :|
<joepie91[m]> gchristensen: where do I throw my money
<gchristensen> one sec
<eyJhb> etu agreed!
<gchristensen> eyJhb: not 20k literally, but I have spent more in ergo equipment than I spent on my 2 elbow surgeries.
<eyJhb> I like mine with LED as well
<joepie91[m]> #nixos-chat -- for all your reproducible builds and keyboard advice
<joepie91[m]> backlighting would be a bonus for me, but not a hard requirement
<eyJhb> gchristensen well... I have a hard time using that to compare with, seeing as ... Free healthcare in DK
<Synthetica> Gotta get that RGB
<eyJhb> Synthetica precisely! Never use mine, seeing as it is under the keyboard. Is mostly turns on at random times
<eyJhb> When I don't need it
<Synthetica> I just have a rainbow going on my desktop at all times :P
* etu have two keyboard.io 's sitting around
<etu> barely used
<etu> in boxes
<eyJhb> Just for you, I turned it on ;)
<Synthetica> :D
<eyJhb> etu why two?
<etu> eyJhb: I bought one to have at work and one to have at home
<gchristensen> joepie91[m]: really it was a hack. they cut it in half and ran a cable :)
<Synthetica> etu: Seems to be an expensive thing to just have laying around
<Synthetica> 😅
<etu> eyJhb: but the wooden wrist rest was too hard on my wrists
<eyJhb> etu is making it rain
<etu> So yeah
<etu> they are in boxes
<gchristensen> joepie91[m]: I think it was on a thread on geekhack by Input Nirvana -- the guy with thebird avatar.
<eyJhb> Never tried them, but I considered them for a while
<etu> eyJhb: Interested?
<joepie91[m]> gchristensen: I am okay with that if it is possible without too much work
<eyJhb> I have like.. No money, and I have to pay for my semester project in Africa in like, 3 months..........
<etu> Synthetica: Yeah, I know
<joepie91[m]> link?
<joepie91[m]> (me? desperate? where are you getting that idea...)
<etu> Synthetica: I just haven't gotten around to get rid of them
<gchristensen> reverse image search thatpicture :)
<gchristensen> joepie91[m]: I found a watershed solution that makes things much more comfortable for me.
<joepie91[m]> gchristensen: hmm. so internally, they're already split PCBs?
<gchristensen> yea!
<eyJhb> That seems more ghetto that my CTF screen...
<eyJhb> s/that/than/
<eyJhb> I want it.
<sphalerite> etu: can I "borrow" one? :p
<joepie91[m]> gchristensen: ah, right, thanks. and, "watershed solution"?
<gchristensen> joepie91[m]: are you on Signal? :) I can send pictures.
<joepie91[m]> gchristensen: I am not, because no smartphone :P
<etu> sphalerite: I could bring one to the cccamp
<joepie91[m]> I am on Matrix, though...
<gchristensen> mmm
<eyJhb> joepie91[m] Nokia 3310?
<etu> sphalerite: Dunno if you're going there though
<sphalerite> etu: quite uncertain. Not sure I have the days off to spare.
<sphalerite> etu: I am going to Sweden soon though :p
<joepie91[m]> (you can't use Signal without a phone number to associate with it, and once you do, it captures all texts from other Signal-using users, which means that texts mysteriously break)
<samueldr> that signal limitation is entirely artificia
<samueldr> artificial*
<samueldr> I think
<etu> sphalerite: If you get to stockholm we should meet up :)
<samueldr> or then there's something weird
<etu> sphalerite: I'll make the time
<samueldr> because I'm using signal on my phone without it being linked to the phone number it's using
<joepie91[m]> eyJhb: no, but close
<joepie91[m]> samueldr: I have not found a way around it that doesn't break texts
<samueldr> how does it break texts?
<sphalerite> etu: hm not sure, I'm going together with my partner and we're going on a hike a large part of the time. But maybe I can fit a trip in :)
<gchristensen> joepie91[m]: https://imgur.com/laCXFWO
<samueldr> (I'm using a data plan)
<joepie91[m]> samueldr: opportunistic encryption of SMS by capturing them and tunneling them over Signal instead
<joepie91[m]> which makes total sense in principle
<joepie91[m]> just is very annoying here
<sphalerite> etu: I'd definitely like to
<etu> sphalerite: If it's on weekends I could in theory travel a bit as well to get to you :) I don't have any vacation until august
<samueldr> but... I linked a phone number which is not on the phone on with it's linked with
<sphalerite> etu: maybe we can get the other Swedes to come along too
<etu> Saving the vacation for cccamp
<joepie91[m]> gchristensen: that's an interesting setup
<eyJhb> Other swedes?
<samueldr> the phone number on my signal is a voip phone number :|
<eyJhb> How many of you are there!?
<sphalerite> eyJhb: there's jD91mZM2 and… I can't remember their name but I met them along with etu at FOSDEM
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<etu> sphalerite: I've been thinking of starting a meetup group in stockholm, we're a bunch that hangs out on mondays in our computer club on mondays that use nixos
<gchristensen> joepie91[m]: it is very nice.
<eyJhb> sphalerite damn. I only remember srhb , and then she mentioned some others... :/
<sphalerite> eyJhb: she's Danish isn't she?
<eyJhb> She is! Very much so
<sphalerite> not swedish I mean
<eyJhb> Oh. I meant. I remember her as Danish :p
<joepie91[m]> gchristensen: it does look comfortable
<etu> eyJhb: There's probably dozens of us I tell you, dozens!
<eyJhb> Like, our own little.. Gang.. Against the Swedes. Even though I am quite in the other end of Denmark regarding sweden
<sphalerite> lol
<eyJhb> etu am actually considering travelling to Sweden for a couple of days this summer
<sphalerite> I discovered NixOS thanks to a lecturer of mine who was from Sweden too
<etu> eyJhb: I'm gonna pass through Denmark in August on my way to CCCamp:)
<etu> Going by car
<eyJhb> sphalerite somewhat the same for me, although a PhD student at my university
<etu> To be able to bring stuff for the camp, like a 10m and 12m antenna pole :p
<eyJhb> etu, guessing over Sjælland, Fyn, and down Jylland?
<etu> Not decided yet
<eyJhb> Or over Aalborg? (the best town)
<etu> I don't plan vacations, they just happen
<etu> "where do I go today? What about that place"
<eyJhb> That is like, the joy of having a car in general..
<sphalerite> etu: yeah so no weekend time unfortunately, the one weekend I'm in Sweden is the end of the hike
<eyJhb> You don't need to plan so much...
<etu> I don't know how to plan anymore
<eyJhb> I am more like, I don't like to plan things anymore
<eyJhb> I like just being able to pack up, and go some place, and not really having to think about x, y and z
<etu> At work: We don't really don't have deadlines, we release things when we're done. I have flexible hours so I start working when I get there and stop when I go home. I live close to the subway so I don't know how to plan to catch a specific train anymore. And I have a car so my vacations is very much like, dunno, let's go somewhere at some time in some pace.
<etu> So my time keeping skills are down the drain :D
<etu> Just floating around in my mind
<eyJhb> Ahh, I still know how to plan stuff, I just.. HATE it.. Only special people and occasions :p
<eyJhb> Sounds like a awesome workplace tbh
<etu> I get super stressed about keeping times nowadays
<etu> like catching a specific subway
<etu> Don't know how to do it anymore
<etu> Catch a plane: I'm there two hours early, just in case
<sphalerite> oh yeah so back to the topic of ergonomic keyboards… I place a lot of value in my health and am willing to spendd money on preserving it. The trouble is, the keyboards are too expensive to just go ahead and buy one of each, and I have no idea which criteria to choose one by.
<eyJhb> sphalerite buy them and become a pusher of exotics keyboards with the ones you don't need ;)
<sphalerite> lol
<sphalerite> wait, I'm starting to become suspicious now.
<sphalerite> I should post this to /r/antimlm
<etu> sphalerite: What about that keyboard.io? ;)
<etu> sphalerite: I have extra caps that are blank ;)
<etu> And it can make rainbows out of the box
<eyJhb> sphalerite screenshot that and post it!
<sphalerite> rainbows are good
<eyJhb> srhb btw. keep me in mind for next meetup
<samueldr> the main thing to remember: everyone's body is different, meaning that what's ergonomical for one might not be for others
<samueldr> and also means that what's just on your desk right now *could* also be fine
<samueldr> as long as other parameters are good too
<samueldr> height of the keyboard relative to elbows, how straight you sit, etc... many of those things cannot be fixed by funky looking keyboards
<eyJhb> Also remember, you might be unable to use a normal keyboard after you switch. :/
<eyJhb> I cannot function on a normal keyboard, regarding i3 and vim, since I have never used it on a normal keyboard, ever.
<etu> eyJhb: Nah
<eyJhb> Also, hurts
<sphalerite> well, I do feel like my hands are in a nonoptimal position generally
<etu> I'm typing just fine on my laptop keyboard
<etu> but it hurts more
<samueldr> laptop use is generally bad because it often assumes use of its internal screen
<eyJhb> I can type just fine, but all the shortcuts, etc. in vim, i3, etc. takes time to figure them out on a normal keyboard
<samueldr> and then there's the whole hand position which cannot go through the laptop's palm rest
<sphalerite> and I've had the occasional bits of minor pain in my lower arms, not sure if it's related but I'd rather waste a couple hundred euros on a fancy keyboard than permanently fuck up my hands
<eyJhb> => love split keyboards as they are easy to brint with you
<eyJhb> bring**
<eyJhb> Just use a 15" laptop case for my ergodox that fits right into my backpack
<eyJhb> sleve*
<sphalerite> but that's where I have my laptop :/
<eyJhb> sphalerite I ... I normally have three sleves when I do CTF.. :|
<eyJhb> Laptop, Screen and keyboard :p
<sphalerite> hehe
<eyJhb> Can recommend!
<sphalerite> but carrying all that around is a pain
<sphalerite> it's also a lot more to set up than just opening a laptop :p
<eyJhb> Well yeah, but, normally you wouldn't carry everything around all the time
<eyJhb> I have my "spare" keyboard at uni when I am there, else I bring it with me to work and use it there. Else it just stays in our group room at uni
<sphalerite> do I want an ergodox or a keyboard.io????
<sphalerite> or a kinesis thingmie?
<eyJhb> *ergodox
<sphalerite> inb4 yes
<joepie91[m]> sphalerite: FYI: ergonomic stuff shops will often charge you quite a bit more than regular shops, *but* allow trying stuff out and returning it if it doesn't meet your expectations (even after active use for a while)
<joepie91[m]> sphalerite: (even some vendors, like contour design, do this)
<sphalerite> maybe keyboard.io because I like the "source code and a screwdriver" marketing.
<eyJhb> joepie91[m] I don't think ergodox-ez does that :(
<eyJhb> But most others do!
<etu> sphalerite: I can probably get one to you
<etu> sphalerite: Dunno how though :)
<eyJhb> Btw.. evoluent verticalmouse 4, also a big recommendation from here
<sphalerite> etu: hmm, mail to my parents' address? How much would you want for it?
<eyJhb> https://i.imgur.com/ffwp8Ak.png -> off topic
<samueldr> is this what the young are calling "planking"?
<etu> eyJhb: I thought the image was about nix because of the note "off topic"
<sphalerite> hahaha
<etu> sphalerite: Well, yeah, that would work I guess. I don't know how much the shipping is. PostNord is kinda garbage.
<joepie91[m]> lol
<sphalerite> right, brb, it's really time I went home
<etu> sphalerite: Which city in germany are you in otherwise? I may pass by in August
<sphalerite> etu: Munich
<eyJhb> etu: sorry to disappoint..
<etu> sphalerite: That's for off :/
<sphalerite> yep lol
<etu> eyJhb: Yeah, I blame the danes
<eyJhb> samueldr we had someone a HackIT that did this, just.. Without the .. Comfy madras
<eyJhb> etu teh danes are great!
<etu> eyJhb: At spending money? :p
<eyJhb> Wait. Why am I spending money now?! :(
<sphalerite> etu: if we don't manage to meet up somehow :D
<sphalerite> ok but really afk now, back in ~20min
<eyJhb> Cannot find the image of the other guy...
<eyJhb> What
<joepie91[m]> rofl
<joepie91[m]> snaaaake oil
<gchristensen> lmao.
<Ralith> lol
<Ralith> at least it doesn't say "blockchain"
* etu have been kinda teaching himself inkscape
<joepie91[m]> yeah, I was already looking for that as well
<eyJhb> Ralith but they are really close at buzzword bingo even without it
<etu> Been drawing something to have as a logo for our computer club :)
<eyJhb> etu inkscape over Gimp?
<Ralith> inkscape is a good tool to have in your back pocket
<etu> eyJhb: I want it scalable
<samueldr> depends on what you want, both tools have few capabilities crossing in the realm of the other
<samueldr> one is for managing vectors, the other for pixles
<etu> eyJhb: But I did most of the work in gimp and did bitmap tracing in inkscape
<eyJhb> LIke, I know nothing. I can barely make a logo with plain text.
<joepie91[m]> imo inkscape is far nicer than gimp
<joepie91[m]> for jobs that can be solved by either
<samueldr> I long for a non-destructive gimp
<etu> Wanna see my draft for our logo? :)
<eyJhb> Go go etu !
<Ralith> it's a lot easier to get something that looks ok in inkscape as an amateur artist
<eyJhb> I normally use Gimp or Tuxpain
<joepie91[m]> samueldr: I dunno why more tools don't go the non-destructive route
<samueldr> like you resize and rotate a layer and it doesn't just bake the pixels as they now are, but instead saves the transformation (and the current pixels)
<etu> I have never drawn anything in my life more or less
<joepie91[m]> samueldr: I've used Fusion 360 a bit and it's a dream to work with, in that aspect
<samueldr> joepie91[m]: old tools made when memory was less plentyful!
<eyJhb> Can recommand tuxpaint, with sounds
<etu> So this is mostly based on photos that I've drawn over in layers
<samueldr> (that's my guess)
<eyJhb> etu electronics club?
<joepie91[m]> samueldr: yeah but :/
<etu> eyJhb: Half that and half computers, the name is ix :)
<joepie91[m]> I want to upgrade to this century
<joepie91[m]> :P
<Ralith> etu: looks nice! though I feel like it won't scale down well
<samueldr> you can open another view for the same document in inkscape
<Ralith> also bonus points if every leg of the quadcopter is the same path, rotated and reflected
<samueldr> if you want to tweak stuff
<joepie91[m]> ....?
<joepie91[m]> samueldr: teach me this wizardry
<etu> Ralith: Same path?
<etu> Ralith: Not have the cable crossing?
<samueldr> view -> duplicate window ; cc joepie91[m]
<ar> etu: ix… internet exchange?
<joepie91[m]> samueldr: thanks! :D
<Ralith> etu: as in, the document could contain just a single copy of a path for a rotor supported by two braces, and then you instantiate that path four times with different transforms; the cable would be a completely unrelated path that just happens to overlap
<Ralith> that way you get strongly guaranteed symmetries and such
<etu> ar: Nah, we had another club named pascal back in the 70s, that later renamed itself to proxxi. And due to reasons another organization named itself proxxi so (pascal/proxxi) renamed itself to ix
* Ralith approaches vector art similar to how he approaches software engineering :D
<etu> Ralith: Aaah
<etu> Ralith: I didn't know that you could do that
<etu> It's the same object that I've duplicated and transformed
<Ralith> parametric art is the best
<Ralith> hmm
<eyJhb> Ralith software engineering, copy paste the code as much as you can, and never reuse anything!
<eyJhb> MOre lines is better lines
<etu> As in duplicated and flipped and moved
<Ralith> you know what I want? a declarative DSL for authoring 2D graphics, with a nice real-time editor
<etu> Ralith: SVG? :p
<Ralith> like openscad but for 2D and maybe even with non-vector operations
<samueldr> oof
<samueldr> I almost built something like that accidentally last year
<eyJhb> Do we actually have some 3d programs available in NixOS for e.g. buildings etc.?
* samueldr now remembers he's late 8 months for a blog post about it
<Ralith> etu: it could almost work if it wasn't so unpleasant to hand-edit :P
<Ralith> eyJhb: depends what you want
<Ralith> there's openscad and blender for starters
<etu> Ralith: Haha, yeah, I know... The only way I've created SVG in the past is by writing it by hand :/
<Ralith> "buildings" is pretty vague, I don't know any domain-specific architecture tools but I assume they exist somewhere
<eyJhb> Ralith basically want to make a 3d rendering of my apartment, for testing setups :p
<eyJhb> Considered Blender
<Ralith> for high quality visualization, blender is appropriate
<eyJhb> Might consider using Blender then. Also have a friend who is quite good at it. Although she says she doesn't want to touch it until next release......
<Ralith> oh? are there big UI changes coming?
<eyJhb> As far as I have heard, but I am not really that into it.. She told me she has been waiting for the relase for a year or so, and then keep pushing it
<eyJhb> v2.8 I am guessing
<joepie91[m]> 2.8
<eyJhb> "simpler UI" so I am guessing big UI changes
<Ralith> interesting!
<samueldr> screenshot of the tool I wrote to make the animations for last nixcon
<samueldr> it's... uh... quite nonstandard :)
<Ralith> I was imagining something with rather less web
<samueldr> it was a bit accidental
<Ralith> openscad is really cool
<samueldr> the actual rendering is managed via inkscape
<samueldr> though a web thing got me parametric animations with a timeline working for almost free
<eyJhb> samueldr there is a lack of 9's
<samueldr> eyJhb: nein
<eyJhb> Guess I was wrong then ;)
<samueldr> in the end this renders all frames to an svg that is renderd to a PNG by inkscape (for effects like blur) and in turn is rendered in a video file with RGBA channels through ffmpeg
<samueldr> rube goldbergian
<Ralith> last time I was doing animations, I used cairo to dump out png frames and encoded those by hand
<Ralith> was fairly pleasant
<Ralith> spent a few hours trying to dump out an av1 video directly using rav1e but man that API is not ready yet
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<sphalerite> I just had a stroke of genius. Maybe.
<drakonis> A stroke of genius you say?
<sphalerite> They make these prism glasses for climbers, so that the person at the bottom who's belaying can look at the person climbing the wall without straining their neck.
<sphalerite> So why not prism glasses that let you look downwards at a laptop screen while having your head facing straight??
<drakonis> doesn't these glasses have a specific design for the environment?
<sphalerite> what do you mean?
<drakonis> thick lenses with goggles
<sphalerite> no they're just thick because of the prisms
<eyJhb> sphalerite but.. They do make those, right?
<sphalerite> not goggle-like
<samueldr> sphalerite: do you really want to look *that* dorky :)
<sphalerite> eyJhb: looks like it :p
<sphalerite> samueldr: eh, if it saves me from serious back pain in the future, sure!
<sphalerite> yeah, although I think I want a shallower angle
<eyJhb> I really don't think we can go from what is ergonomic correct, to.. This.
<eyJhb> :p
<sphalerite> if I accept that using a laptop with the internal screen is a necessary evil, I can at least mitigate it?
<sphalerite> also, not "dork" please. I prefer "cyberpunk".
<sphalerite> what it really needs is laser beams
<sphalerite> or just LED torches attached to the side, like Orbital
<Ralith> just do all your computing via a HMD
<Ralith> I wonder how compact you could make a headless VR-capable computer...
<manveru> i was thinking more along the lines of the Aspire R7... just with one more level of extension length :)
<Ralith> (not VR gaming capable, so even a recent intel onboard might be plenty)
<Ralith> I'm thinking just replace laptops with a compute brick that you can optionally snap a lithium ion brick to
<Ralith> something much larger than a phone, but still compact enough to fit in a jacket pocket
<sphalerite> ok but the prism glasses are realistic now.
<sphalerite> Even with laser pointers.
<joepie91[m]> Ralith: I want my tactile keyboard thank you very much :)
<Ralith> joepie91: I'm sure you can cram a bluetooth chip into one, if cables are too much pain
<samueldr> you could have a keyboard on your desktop, AR'd back into VR I guess
<samueldr> at least, that's what I want
<drakonis> sphalerite, what about cyberdork?
<samueldr> AR back in my cup or water bottle in a way I can drink from please
<sphalerite> Drakonis: hmmmmm
<Ralith> I'm imagining optional fixed panels at your desk, and lightweight AR glasses for other use
<ar> Ralith: i'm not lightweight
<Ralith> maybe a microprojector
<drakonis> i'd take eye implants, but the prospect of someone injecting ads into my eyes is scary as heck
<Ralith> ar: condolences?
<samueldr> Ralith: (lightweight AR glasses)
<Ralith> I don't want eye implants because they'll need to be updated in a few years
<Ralith> smart ones, tha tis
<Ralith> artificial lenses yes please
<sphalerite> Drakonis: only get eye implants that come with source code and a screwdriver
<sphalerite> Ralith: smart contact lenses?
<Ralith> samueldr: oooooh
<Ralith> that took me way too long XD
<sphalerite> like google glass?
<Ralith> sphalerite: no strong objection but I hear contacts are a bit of a pain
<samueldr> too bad glassholes ruined AR glasses for at least another 5 years :/
<sphalerite> Ralith: I want to try them maybe one day. But I have dry eyes anyway, and that's apparently worsened by contact lenses…
<Ralith> samueldr: eh, low profile ones are looking promising
<Ralith> none with good screens and no built-in android crapware yet though afaik
<sphalerite> hm, I wonder if and how I can combine prism glasses with my correction glasses 🙃
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<joepie91[m]> gchristensen: this is something that maybe ofBorg could address: https://discourse.nixos.org/t/the-papercut-thread-post-your-small-annoyances-confusions-here/3100/68?u=joepie91 -- given that it already knows which PRs are about which packages
<joepie91[m]> would be useful if it could eg. go "hey, there's already a PR that changes this package at location such and such, have a look to check whether it might be duplicated work"
<gchristensen> hmm that is a cool idea
<samueldr> looks like the issue is pushing directly to master :(
<gchristensen> ack.
<gchristensen> ofborg can address that too :')
<samueldr> hmmmm... it would be neat to have a "forge" software create a patchset/PR on pushes to PR
<samueldr> on pushes to master*
<joepie91[m]> by creating a branch out of it, reverting master, and then creating a PR from branch to master?
<joepie91[m]> well
<joepie91[m]> winding back, not reverting
<samueldr> yeah
<joepie91[m]> I could see that working
<samueldr> sure it'd bring friction for "just push it to master" but otherwise would allow better vetting changes if well integrated with tooling
<joepie91[m]> would combine nicely with the duplicate work detecftion too
<samueldr> and (thinking outside nixos) could also delay releasing changes to master until all verifications are green
<samueldr> e.g. the project has a rule that pushing to a branch creates an auto-merging PR/patchset
<joepie91[m]> samueldr: "brings friction to [...]" seems like a feature to me
<joepie91[m]> :p
<samueldr> joepie91[m]: never said it wasn't!
<samueldr> in a world without friction how would you move around?!?
<pie__> samueldr, blowing lightly
<drakonis> oho that would be great.
<joepie91[m]> lol
<pie__> look ma no hands
<pie__> "slow down jimmy!"
<drakonis> having a efficient way to push PRs into master would cut down on the backlog
<eyJhb> pie__ just solved everything
<drakonis> non breaking changes like "init <x> at <y>" which do not touch anything important
<joepie91[m]> Drakonis: what do you mean, with "an efficient way"? like, what is the current efficiency hurdle?
<drakonis> i mean that its piling up and there arent enough folks to merge trivial additions
<eyJhb> Didn't someone say, that people like.. me, could test in, and see if it worked etc. and then ping someone to merge?
<joepie91[m]> Drakonis: right, so what are you envisioning with "an efficient way to push PRs into master"
<joepie91[m]> ?*
<pie__> something something isnt this why designated maintainers and package ownership is a hting
<pie__> * a thing
<pie__> well it doesnt seem to be much of a thing for us but
<drakonis> the main distributions get around this by being cumbersome to include software in the repos
<drakonis> i have mentioned a poor workaround some time ago when the topic previously came up
<drakonis> ie: have a branch that collects trivial PRs that gets merged into nixpkgs prime
<drakonis> from time to time
<drakonis> automatically merges PRs that is
<drakonis> its not a perfect solution
<drakonis> there's 363 PRs tagged with new package
<joepie91[m]> right
<joepie91[m]> you still want some amount of review I think
<joepie91[m]> to prevent people auto-merging in malware
<drakonis> yes.
<joepie91[m]> also, lol, this provider is great. they've manually created a VM for me, to migrate stuff from OpenVZ -> KVM.... and they've correctly pre-selected the NixOS ISO for me :D
<joepie91[m]> I guess they inferred from the other NixOS VM :P
<drakonis> alternatively, the other option i had in mind, it is a really poor choice, would be to give free pass to the consistent committers
<drakonis> (a terrible option, let's never do that)
<drakonis> now, designated maintainers and package ownership is a weird thing
<pie__> Drakonis, dont we already let committers do whatever
<drakonis> popular committers i suppose
<drakonis> the folks that have a lot of PRs
<drakonis> now, a dig at other distributions' packaging metods
<drakonis> methods
<pie__> i think those people usually are people that end up getting commit access anyway :V
<drakonis> debian suffers from a problem where maintainers create their own fiefdoms
<pie__> joepie91[m], i havent tried the fix yet but ouch
<pie__> layout.scene. not layout. kill me.
<joepie91[m]> > Hi Sven, I also noticed that NixOS 18.09 is already EOL, so I've added the 19.03 ISO now.
<{^_^}> error: syntax error, unexpected ',', expecting ')', at (string):254:8
<joepie91[m]> okay, I guess they just know me as "that NixOS guy" now lol
<pie__> joepie91[m], i was a bad person today, i should have asked questions on the R discourse that I'm not registered on but i opened a github issue anyway
<joepie91[m]> lol
<pie__> and tried to make it look issuey
<drakonis> getting shit done takes forever there
<drakonis> someone sent in a package for nix 4 months ago
<drakonis> its sitting in the package ftp
<drakonis> last year there used to be packages that were not accepted for longer than a year
<drakonis> hoo boy this might be ranty
<joepie91[m]> I feel like the main reason that nixpkgs management seems so slow/backlogged to people... is that unlike ~every other distro, our package maintenance process is actually public
<sphalerite> joepie91[m]: would you recommend the provider? And name it? ;) (not actively looking for one, but I like collecting data points)
<joepie91[m]> and it's not /actually/ any slower or more backlogged than other distros
<sphalerite> ^
<joepie91[m]> sphalerite: yeah, it's Afterburst. nothing but good things to say about them :)
<joepie91[m]> stuff is reliable, fast, good network, and whenever I've needed any kind of support it was always pretty speedy and, more importantly, useful
<drakonis> well, public might not be the right word for it, i'd say it isn't obscured by red tape
<joepie91[m]> ie. no ticket tennis
<drakonis> or extremely obfuscated
<joepie91[m]> Drakonis: right, yeah, that's a better description probably :)
<drakonis> the major distros all have the same problem at this point
<joepie91[m]> sphalerite: but yeah, it's a small provider. for some people that's an issue, for me it tends to be a selling point, assuming they have their shit together (which Afterburst does)
<joepie91[m]> just keep that in mind :)
<sphalerite> also I think the number of open PRs is scary in a misleading way
<pie__> i think we're _largely_ just overloaded, some organization /may/ help with that?
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<drakonis> it is quite misleading because we have issues and PRs spanning years
<sphalerite> joepie91[m]: thanks, will remember that. I think I heard good things about fanatical at one point as well, and that's apparently afterburst's former name
<drakonis> some don't even apply anymore
<joepie91[m]> pie__: I have a script that scrapes the currently open issues off github and categorizes them by which package they apply to
<pie__> issue count shouldnt be a decisive metric for anything anyway
<pie__> other thatn anything that depends on the number of issues you have
<joepie91[m]> sphalerite: yeah, that's correct - it used to be Fanatical VPS, and they've been around for a looooong time (intentionally staying out of the LowEndBox price range)
<joepie91[m]> sphalerite: they had to change their name due to trademark bullshit from... Rackspace, I think?
<sphalerite> ah ok
<pie__> first rule of the tautology club
<joepie91[m]> which used the "fanatical support" slogan
<drakonis> is first rule of the tautology club
<joepie91[m]> lol
<drakonis> even arch has packaging red tape
<drakonis> simple packaging my ass
<sphalerite> pie__: what makes you think we're overloaded?
<pie__> issue count :V
<pie__> XD
<drakonis> :V
<pie__> damn this hdd is hella loud
<samueldr> part of the high count is that we cannot filter out "TODO items" from "here's something on fire"
* joepie91[m] posted a file: nixpkgs-gh-issues.zip (6297KB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/v1/download/alternanet.fr/rGymvdQzzJtBgwgyGLAkwOFQ >
<joepie91[m]> github issue categorization scripts
<joepie91[m]> npm install, change page count to something that looks right in grab-all.js, store output as all-issues.json
<drakonis> that's big.
<pie__> samueldr, i dont see why that matters for the question of whether we have more tasks than hands
<pie__> im not complaining per se
<joepie91[m]> download packages.json.gz from the nixos.org site package search
<joepie91[m]> run match.js, and wait
<samueldr> I think we might also need a "waiting for reporter" tag for when reporters don't reply for years :/
<joepie91[m]> it's all very duct-tape-y and quickly thrown together, but has a pretty high accuracy rate
<samueldr> e.g. #9645 is likely something that needs to be closed as outdated
<{^_^}> https://github.com/NixOS/nixpkgs/issues/9645 (by edolstra, 3 years ago, open): Konqueror location bar does not work
<samueldr> it would at least warrant the tag
<joepie91[m]> and this is the sort of output it'll give you:
* joepie91[m] uploaded an image: Selection_002.png (74KB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/v1/download/alternanet.fr/KafIjTQNNnAworIpPmEFrsiC >
<joepie91[m]> it does have a few misfires
<samueldr> interesting, joepie91[m]
<joepie91[m]> but I've blacklisted most of the commonly-misfiring things
<joepie91[m]> common words that are also package names etc.
<joepie91[m]> and it normalizes a bunch of stuff to also find differently-formatted instances of package names
<joepie91[m]> it's also super inefficient, but I don't care :D
<joepie91[m]> cc gchristensen also
<joepie91[m]> (I don't think I've ever linked you the source?)
<pie__> fffffffuuuuuuu
<samueldr> I have this PoC code that can synchronize PRs and issues in a local sqlite database, including waiting for API throttling
<pie__> tfw long urnning computation fails Error in mutate_impl(.data, dots) :
<pie__> Column `intersec` must be length 623310 (the number of rows) or one, not 514
<sphalerite> pie__: https://www.debian.org/Bugs/ just sayin'
<pie__> lol nice
<drakonis> debian is orders of magnitude worse than us...
<pie__> they also got some years under their belt too
<samueldr> they also have orders of magnitude more users
<drakonis> they have a decade of ossification tho
<drakonis> they've had much more time than us to become horrible and inefficient
<sphalerite> :D
<pie__> XD
<drakonis> there's a package maintainer that ressurected xchat
<joepie91[m]> lol
<drakonis> ressurected dead software because he's nostalgic
<drakonis> this guy's not some random person
<joepie91[m]> I mean, if we're talking about bad packaging decisions in Debian...
<joepie91[m]> something something Node.js
<drakonis> ah yes node
<drakonis> my god.
<joepie91[m]> never-ending flood of "help, my Node doesn't work!", "help, I don't have npm!"
<joepie91[m]> "help, my npm is failing with a mysterious dependency error!"
<samueldr> but the other node software _already_ existed?
<drakonis> i think i tried to use node once for running software
<pie__> talk to your kids
<pie__> before debian does
<samueldr> of are we not talking about the name of the node package?
<joepie91[m]> well yes that's because Debian totally fucked up the packaging
<samueldr> or are we*
<joepie91[m]> and tried to shoehorn it into Debian's package model, which is not compatible with that of Node
<joepie91[m]> so yes, shit will absolutely break then
<samueldr> ah, other issues I didn't know about
<drakonis> debian only allows fresh node on experimental fyi
<drakonis> it is incredibly stupid
<joepie91[m]> samueldr: oh that is a whole different fuckup
<samueldr> I was thinking about how "node" the package isn't "nodejs"
<joepie91[m]> also Debian
<joepie91[m]> indeed, "node" would conflict with some HAM radio thing
<samueldr> yeah
<joepie91[m]> therefore they renamed it to "nodejs"
<joepie91[m]> including the binary name
<samueldr> tbf, it's fine
<samueldr> oh
<drakonis> they also have fresh django only if you're running experimental too
<samueldr> that's not
<drakonis> its horrible and awful
<pie__> you should be using virtualenv anyway tho probably right
<joepie91[m]> which meant that literally everything that invoked Node in the ecosystem, broke on Debian
<samueldr> I would have thought they could contort the alternative system to make `node` work
<drakonis> there's also fedora but they don't fuck up as frequently as debian
<joepie91[m]> at least they eventually fixed that
<joepie91[m]> as one of the people who had to deal with the support load: no, it was very much not fine :)
<drakonis> in fact, they havent fucked up like debian has, in quite a while
<joepie91[m]> samueldr: could've, yes. but didn't.
<joepie91[m]> samueldr: at least, not until after years of complaints and flat-out recommending "NEVER INSTALL NODE FROM DEBIAN REPOS"
<drakonis> also, debian people using nix, please dont be mad
<samueldr> joepie91[m]: it smells like the irc bridge has some lag again :(
<joepie91[m]> the reason nodesource repos exist is pretty much this BS
<drakonis> debian has a incredible problem with all of their maintainers ruining packages
<__monty__> You could also be as stubborn as the arch maintainers, when it comes to haskell packaging.
<joepie91[m]> yes, probably
<joepie91[m]> it usually does
<drakonis> see openssl and valgrind
<drakonis> arch maintainers lol
<drakonis> these guys are bad too
<joepie91[m]> samueldr: lag doesn't seem too bad atm?
<pie__> __monty__, what does that mean lol
<drakonis> gentoo's folks are also bad
<samueldr> joepie91[m]: no, maybe it was just you catching up with the text and my being impatient
<joepie91[m]> :)
<__monty__> pie__: Have you ever tried developing haskell on arch? It's a bad scene if you try to use the arch repos.
<joepie91[m]> but yeah, basically, I am not at all a fan of Debian packaging. I'm fine with distro-specific integration patches, in principle, if they are done carefully and the maintainers take care not to increase the support load for other people
<joepie91[m]> Debian... does not do that :|
<pie__> __monty__, :D no i havent
<joepie91[m]> anyway, enough rantyrant
<joepie91[m]> I have a VPS to install
<joepie91[m]> time to try out morph
<drakonis> non ranty stuff
<drakonis> you can finally replace your current nix version with flakes enabled nix.
<drakonis> and it seems like nixpkgs prime will have a flakes file
<joepie91[m]> wait
<joepie91[m]> what
<joepie91[m]> where
<joepie91[m]> where do I sign up
* joepie91[m] jumps up and down
<drakonis> NOW
<drakonis> nixos-unstable hasn't updated yet
<drakonis> so you might need to use nixpkgs-unstable for that
<drakonis> which incidentally, has not updated either.
<sphalerite> MASTER TIME
<joepie91[m]> lol
<drakonis> word is that you have to switch the nix version attribute to nixFlakes
<joepie91[m]> I like my new SSD, but I don't like it /that/ much
<joepie91[m]> let's not rebuild the world
<drakonis> you don't need to rebuild the world
<sphalerite> just nix
<drakonis> though you're going to be a few thousand commits behind because the global registry is set to eelco's fork
<drakonis> with the flake file
<drakonis> or you can spin up your own horrible thing until he adds it to nixpkgs and updates the global registry
<samueldr> Drakonis: nixpkgs-unstable often moves slower than nixos-unstable
<samueldr> due to macOS compilation being a bottleneck
<drakonis> i'm aware of that.
<drakonis> oh boy!
<drakonis> wait, why can't it be done separately?
<pie__> samueldr, oh :V
<drakonis> y'all mac bois be stealin ma tundah
<samueldr> because hydra waits for everything to be (tried to be) built
<drakonis> bastards
<samueldr> I guess it could be possible to have a lower priority "nixpkgs-actually-build-all-macOS" and on `trunk-combined` have only a minimal macOS set... but that would leave some macOS users unable to update and run without compiling whatever was left
<samueldr> so if you want your cake and eat it too, follow nixos-unstable on any Linux distro too
<__monty__> pie__: It comes down to the arch maintainers build ghc with dynamic linking because they're of the opinion that "dynamic linking's the shit." That means you have to build your own software with dynamic linking too. If you know how heavily GHC relies on inlining and how that's made harder by dynamic linking you'll also realize there's almost 0 benefit to "dynamic" linking with ghc. You have to
<__monty__> rebuild the libraries anew every time anyway because different things are inlined or specialized.
<samueldr> the big issue causing many tests to fail randomly has been mostly chewed off before the 19.03 release, and since it's been fine at updating
<drakonis> https://github.com/NixOS/flake-registry/blob/master/flake-registry.json the registry is hardcoded to pull this file
<drakonis> though i wonder how it'll work for dealing with multiple nix versions
<pie__> __monty__, sounds weird that ghcs linking capability depends on how its been compiled...
<__monty__> pie__: Also, because of how arch tracks hackage fairly closely (only retaining the most recent versions basically) every time you update with pacman you have to rebuild a huge number of haskell packages, often multiple times if they're deps of multiple installed things.
<drakonis> how it'll provide them.
<pie__> __monty__, :D
<pie__> __monty__, gotta hope theres a fixpoint
<pie__> just keep recompiling
<drakonis> the lesson is, arch is bad...
<drakonis> don't run arch.
<samueldr> Drakonis: no, just don't diss wholesale
<__monty__> Disclaimer: I still run arch >.> <.<
<samueldr> please have constructive thoughts
<pie__> nixos is just good
<pie__> everyone else is stuck in the present
<pie__> :P
<samueldr> (and to be clear, it wasn't about archlinux, dissing wholesale is bad)
<drakonis> to be fair, arch forced me to change my partition structure so i could just install it
<drakonis> i had lvm but i couldnt get it to work
<drakonis> so i moved everything into a regular ext4 partition
<joepie91[m]> samueldr++
<{^_^}> samueldr's karma got increased to 93
<samueldr> saying "don't X" is bad
<samueldr> so don'T say "don't X"
<drakonis> IRONIC???
<drakonis> isn't it recursive?
* pie__ gets out the meme stamp
<pie__> so yeah, protip ,test out long running computations on SMALLER sample sets first
<joepie91[m]> samueldr: X is bad though
<pie__> unless your language has a type sytem that doesnt suck
<joepie91[m]> :D
<__monty__> pie__: The problem is you can't do static compilation because arch doesn't include the static boot libraries anymore.
<pie__> joepie91[m], im more of a Y guy myself
<pie__> wait
<pie__> __monty__, derp
<__monty__> The maintainers basically decided for all haskell users that they won't want static linking ever.
<drakonis> yay.
<samueldr> feels like they're thinking about distro use, including their own packages; in that case another "haskell for developers" should be present or something along the lines?
<samueldr> (same for node for debian I guess)
<drakonis> ah, something i just remembered regarding flakes
<drakonis> shell completion only handles the current format
<Ralith> re: X is bad: I've been considering switching to sway
<Ralith> getting fed up with how garbage i3 is at handling monitor hotplugging
<pie__> all this software hotswapping
<drakonis> ie: nix run nixpkgs.hello completes but not nixpkgs:hello
<samueldr> look, I wasn't talking about X, but 𝔁 the placeholder :)
<drakonis> pie__, the magic of nix
<joepie91[m]> samueldr: Node on Debian breaks for users too lol
<samueldr> joepie91[m]: then it's bad :)
<joepie91[m]> well... yes. :P
<samueldr> well, meaning "then this bit of debian is badly done"
<__monty__> samueldr: Yes, it may sound like a good idea, dynamic linking for users. But, arguably, a compiler isn't for "just users."
<samueldr> __monty__: I'm thinking maybe they need "ghc-for-archlinux-packages" and "ghc-for-those-wanting-to-use-ghc"?
<pie__> we are such opinionated nixers smh ;P
<pie__> and by nixers i mean unix, and by unix i actually mean GNU+//Linux
<samueldr> but I don't know haskell stuff so maybe what I say is impossible or misguided
<drakonis> arch people gonna tell you to run docker for that
<drakonis> or containers
<samueldr> pie__: singlehandledly pushing macOS users aside?
<__monty__> samueldr: And like I said, the dynamic linking doesn't actually make life better for users. Every haskell package still needs to be rebuilt every time even if it's just a "shared library" dependency that's changed.
<__monty__> samueldr: They do have a ghc-static package too. But there's no static version of the various haskell-package-xyz.
<pie__> i think the real advantage of dynamic linking was really just ram savings back in the day?
<samueldr> __monty__: ah, for using haskell packages from archlinux as libs in your own project, I see; is that it?
<__monty__> pie__: The simpler updates for security fixes in deps are a nice side-effect.
<__monty__> samueldr: That's one of the problems, yes.
<pie__> __monty__, hm
<samueldr> __monty__: and to be clear, I don't doubt your opinion, I'm trying to understand the situation better :)
<gchristensen> holy hell, I'm cross compiling ruby for windows and it is sort of working??
<samueldr> gchristensen: that's a weird thing to do :)
<__monty__> samueldr: To be perfectly honest I don't understand it all that well. I just experienced what an absolute shitshow it was. Both as a haskell dev *and* as simply a user of something like shellcheck or pandoc. Literally every pacman -syu was hours of haskell building. That's ridiculous on a binary distro.
<samueldr> oh, right, I remember using pandoc was hell
<Ralith> it sounds like noninvasive security updates probably aren't even feasible for haskell, too
<__monty__> Ralith: Exactly.
<Ralith> though conversely, I've been curious about the prospect of setting rust (which has a similar linkage story) up for dynamic linking in nix, since nix can easily account for the usual challenges involved
<Ralith> unclear benefit, though
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<gchristensen> I deeply regret trying to cross compile ruby for windows with --cores 1
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<pie__> gchristensen, xD
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<joepie91[m]> lol
<samueldr> >:| finding my own URLs (logs) when searching about something
<samueldr> and not finding an answer because it's obviously not part of it
<samueldr> (coincidental presence of relevant terms)
<joepie91[m]> lol
<drakonis> hmm, am i doing this right?
<drakonis> sphalerite: are you running nix with flakes yet?
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