gchristensen changed the topic of #nixos-chat to: NixOS but much less topical || https://logs.nix.samueldr.com/nixos-chat
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<MichaelRaskin> I wonder if DeleGate (delegated) is alive enough
<andi-> whats that? Thats a bad term to google for :/
<sphalerite> http://www.delegate.org/delegate/ I'm guessing
<sphalerite> or rather http://delegate.hpcc.jp/delegate/
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<MichaelRaskin> Yes
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<andi-> awhh BTRFS.. I have that one machine that corrupts it's BTRFS whenever I suspend it. The NixOS initramfs skips fsck on BTRFS on purpose :/ The SSD looks fine. Now btfsck is segfaulting on the disk /o\
<MichaelRaskin> I think btrfs mounting code (in-kernel) has better btrfs checking than btrfsck. Not a high bar, though.
<andi-> I've previously tried the `btrfs` tool, did some scrubbing etc.. everything looks fine. btrfsck was at least able to repair the issues until today.
* andi- tries to kexec into an NixOS netboot image to reformat/install...
<andi-> mhm the documented steps produce an error: aarch64-linux is required... I am on amd64 thought m(
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<manveru> i'm wondering... is there some way to bootstrap for example bash using only `derivation`?
<manveru> i'm just thinking what a possible builder would be then
<manveru> without depending on nixpkgs :)
<infinisil> manveru: I mean, you can just remove everything from nixpkgs that's not needed for bash and end up with that
<manveru> i guess it's a bootstrapping problem
<manveru> like, at some point you're gonna need a C compiler
<LnL> for bash you could cheat...
<LnL> do you actually need bash or just 'a shell'?
<manveru> this is just for experimentation
<sphalerite> manveru: it is possible, but usually using nixpkgs's bootstrap files is nicest
<sphalerite> they're built from nixpkgs itself AFAIK
<manveru> i wanted to give a presentation about how `derivation` works, kinda like in the nix pills
<LnL> using derivation with packages from nixpkgs is probably less confusing, but let me make an example
<manveru> got this for example
<manveru> i mean, it's just to show that you don't have to use bash if you don't want to :)
<manveru> anw, can't spend much more time on this, gotta prepare everything today
<LnL> ^ that's how the bootstrap-tarball is unpacked
<manveru> that's a derivation for `true` :)
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<manveru> nice, i'll keep that
<LnL> and from that point everything uses binaries from bootstrap-tools to slowly build up everything else
<manveru> i think you could bootstrap any system if you have a build of busybox for it?
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<LnL> yeah this coreutils you get there could be busybox, it's whatever what configured while nix itself was built
<LnL> I wonder if nix could handle this with the new builtin builder stuff
<manveru> what's that?
<LnL> that would reduce the amount of stuff those impure binaries are used for
<manveru> is that a new builtin?
<LnL> compared to
<LnL> so if <nix/config.nix> was removed and there's a builtin:unpack instead you wouldn't be able to use the binaries directly anymore
<manveru> i wonder how that works
<manveru> but really can't dig into it now :|
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* andi- just started reading about Elm.. It seems nice.
<gchristensen> it is nice!
<gchristensen> andi-: http://gsc.io/elm-thing/?query=
<andi-> neat. Is the source public somewhere? I'd like to see how much more/different/complexer that thing is from writing vanilla JS
<samueldr> I need to look into it some day, hoping my issues are fied
<samueldr> fixed*
<samueldr> (but mainly, their dev tools caused JS stack overflows on large dataset, but I thought it was my fault instead of theirs)
<{^_^}> nixos-homepage#160 (by grahamc, open): Build the options page in Elm
<samueldr> this was maybe 9 months ago
<samueldr> hmm, no blog post since 2016, version 0.18, hard to find a packages list with version numbers :(
<gchristensen> elm-lang's slack is very active
<gchristensen> blogs are hard
<samueldr> yeah, I sure agree, the blog was the last hope I had to find out whether there were releases
<gchristensen> yeah
<samueldr> their website doesn't seem to list anything useful :(
<gchristensen> not sure why 0.19 hsa been SO lon
<gchristensen> g in the making
<samueldr> not even a link to their github
<samueldr> though, through all my gripes and issues, I have *hope* for this
<andi-> before I dive into it what are the alternative in your opinion samueldr?
<andi-> raw JS?
<gchristensen> haskell junkies who are super in to category theory (my impression) like purescript
<samueldr> I haven't looked at what's available really for elm-like things
<samueldr> elm does more than being a language
<samueldr> it's the full framework wtoo
<andi-> yep, that framework aspect is appealing :-)
<samueldr> and gives you a strict working framework (which can be hard to slip into at first)
<samueldr> yes!
<samueldr> I don't know of anything *that* integrated yet
<samueldr> though, for personal use, I haven't yet looked at alternatives to ES6
<samueldr> I hate ES6 and how in flux it is
<samueldr> (personal use and professional use)
<samueldr> it feels like all features are always gated under a new name in the babel compiler
<samueldr> https://github.com/elm/compiler/releases yeah, no compiler releases :(
<samueldr> the best I can tell, from experience: anything will be painful, the moment you need to integrate two libs together
<samueldr> well, not everytime, but it will probably happen
<samueldr> libraries, frameworks, anything really
* samueldr is tired of "modern frontend dev"
<andi-> yeah.. I have used "it all"... from plain js, angular1-4, vue, backbone, ... it just isn't fun
<samueldr> in my last project (internal tool for work) I dumped everything and used a more basic approach of NIH almost everything
<samueldr> use react for its "cascade" and its ability to render views
<samueldr> use babel for es6 (though next step I'll look into alternatives like typescript or other stricter languages)
<andi-> ahh yeah forgot react.. never shipped that thing.. It was quick to write but felt totally wrong and hacky on every corner
<samueldr> I feel like react is nothing more than a basic, but complex tool that you have to understand
<samueldr> you can do wrong and hacky, it'll work, it may not even be *really* wrong
<samueldr> though, what it does, when you do it right, it's really useful not to have to NIH it
<samueldr> the best is to do an ELM-like structure of *really* separating state and view, and if you can, what transform states
<samueldr> (there are multiple ways to do this)
<andi-> Lets see if I will even be motivated to touch webfoo in a week or so when I need it :D
<samueldr> webfoo?
<manveru> there's also https://www.mint-lang.com/ :)
<andi-> like creating anythinf for the browser
<samueldr> ah
<samueldr> yeah, it can really be exhausting :(
<andi-> I am easily exhausted by many things these days.. probably the age :/
<manveru> writing larger apps in Elm is pretty hard unfortunately :|
<samueldr> manveru: didn't get to a larger app, but I seem to remember it looked like it could become tiresome
<andi-> What would you pick if it was about static pages that have an "extern" data source (a simple JSON blob) during creationg?
<samueldr> andi-: something like middleman, no JS shenanigans
<samueldr> generate static websites if possible
<manveru> indeed
<samueldr> or on-demand static-enough
<manveru> JS always leads to pain, no matter what :P
<samueldr> in my personal experience, you should use complex JS apps when you *need complex behaviour*
<samueldr> e.g. replacing an application
<manveru> and even then, try to make it stateless components if possible
<samueldr> yes!
<samueldr> one state as close to the root (or outside the react tree)
<andi-> mhm ERB syntax... I already have to use that for puppet.. Maybe I'll just let my rust app generate all those files instead of an JSON blob....
<samueldr> but don't shy away from having local context for *some* things (like collapsible elements)
<samueldr> andi-: I said middleman, but anything that can work with template is great
<samueldr> so yeah, if you already have a tool generating those json files, maybe add html generation to it
<manveru> dhall-to-text :)
<manveru> (not that i've tried it)
<andi-> samueldr: I know... I used Hugo, Jekyll... but they always felt like so much more then what I need :D
<samueldr> they probably were, if you didn't need the "articles" pipeline :)
<manveru> they think everything's a blog :|
<gchristensen> every time I do something with my jekyll blog it is just a fight.
<samueldr> yes, that's why I used middleman when I was doing static websites, it worked much better for sites
<gchristensen> honestly, html isn't that bad.
<samueldr> gchristensen: you're mostly right
<samueldr> the worst is getting an article into a template
<ldlework> i plan to use org-mode when i get some time
<andi-> I used nikola for my personal blog that I havent updated in years.. felt okayish but then again thats an article style workflow
<samueldr> for the moment you want to change the template
<gchristensen> for f in $(find . ./posts); do cat header.html $f footer.html > $out/$(basename $f); done
<andi-> yes!
<samueldr> gchristensen: used that in the past, works mostly fine
<gchristensen> ^.^
<samueldr> then you have <title></title>
<ldlework> i wrote my own static site generator (really a generalized content pipeline library) but i was the only user and got tired of maintaining it
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<gchristensen> shush samueldr
<samueldr> and possibly some meta things
<gchristensen> :P
<samueldr> and then you're shaving a yak
<samueldr> :)
<gchristensen> I know, it is solving a real thing but its a lot of stuff I really don't want
<andi-> thats what sed is for. Extract h1 from $f and replace that in the header :P
<LnL> there's also the nix static generator, have not used that tho
<samueldr> ^ these days I would look into that
<gchristensen> I tried it once but it was a lot, too
<gchristensen> not my cup of tea
<gchristensen> cool, though
<manveru> that one was nice... but felt very rough
* samueldr checked last blog post on own site
<andi-> that reminds me of the (for me) super complex actor rust nix thingy where you combine parts of applications with nix expressions and define routing(?) via nix expressions..
<samueldr> 2012!
<samueldr> they were right, it all ended in 2012
<gchristensen> oh, yeah, THAT thing
<LnL> that sounds crazy :p
<andi-> let me grep for that..
<andi-> Some crazy crypto currency people created it
<andi-> It almost sounds like a troll
<gchristensen> sjm has fun posts on the email list
<gchristensen> hey can a bunch of people do some traceroutes for me?
<gchristensen> (requires ipv6)
<andi-> is that from the ML or a real thing? :)
<gchristensen> that is a real thing, vcunat and I think routing is broken somewhere in europe
<andi-> whats the target?
<gchristensen> t2m.cunat.cz and 2604:1380:0:d00::1
<LnL> remind me in ~2h
<gchristensen> can-do
<andi-> Performing ICMP traceroutes towards t2m.cunat.cz from 472 ring hosts, ssh-timeout is 10 seconds.
* andi- waits
<gchristensen> :o
<andi-> gchristensen: I created https://atlas.ripe.net/measurements/15239018/ while we wait for the other results.. hope that helps
<sphalerite> I don't suppose I can still make a useful contribution? :p
<andi-> sorry? :)
<sphalerite> gchristensen: https://sphalerite.org/gallery.sh also
<gchristensen> seems andi has it extremely under control haha
<andi-> I am just procrastinating going through my compiler errors..
<sphalerite> shell is a really nice tool for putting things together in simple ways
<sphalerite> I'm still really proud of my mobile-phone remote control for presentations, built in half an hour with <100 lines of bash
<gchristensen> :O
<LnL> let's use it for everything!
<sphalerite> gchristensen: I showed you before I think
<gchristensen> LnL++
<{^_^}> LnL's karma got increased to 3
<andi-> lets implement TLS using bash?
<samueldr> it's not well-known how bash has a plugin infrastructure
<LnL> gchristensen: euh
<gchristensen> "euh" is a perfect sound for the disgust you should feel
<samueldr> that's how you read it :)
* sphalerite interpreted it more like "umm", thinking sound
<LnL> guess some people really don't understand sarcasm?
<samueldr> that was sarcastic?
<samueldr> man, now I have to scrap all my projects
<LnL> :)
<samueldr> before I was englightened and learned about nix, I was building a build framework using bash builtins where possible
<gchristensen> oh dear
<samueldr> well, let me rephrase, it was mostly bash builtins, and had to support macOS so bash 3.2
<gchristensen> oh dear
<sphalerite> oh dear indeed
<samueldr> it was surprisingly good, and allowed more control than what was available at the time
<samueldr> and especially, source builds of libraries instead of magic sauce pre-built .so and .dylib
<LnL> I probably stared to write more bash...
<samueldr> oh, forgot about it, it supported windows through mingw
<samueldr> well, msys and mingw
<samueldr> it sounds painful, but using only builtins side-stepped the whole bsd vs. gnu coreutils
<samueldr> hmm, at one time it also built everything for haiku too
<sphalerite> oh yeah, I'm looking for work. Anybody, ideally mainland-europe-based, looking for someone who likes nix a great deal? :D
<andi-> Wouldn't most of us want to do that? :)
<sphalerite> that work, you mean?
<andi-> yes
<andi-> with nix relations
<sphalerite> oh yeah, gchristensen: elm-thing seems to work but always display the results for what was in the search bar *before* the last key press…
<gchristensen> weird :D
<sphalerite> so if you type fooo it shows the results for foo
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<sphalerite> andi-: well it can't hurt to ask, and I'm sure there's nix work to be had out there :)
<andi-> sphalerite: yes! I would like to do that myself... I am currently the odd grumpy guy at the office that just shakes his head at all the impure systems,..
<sphalerite> :)
<gchristensen> :D
<gchristensen> maybe ping Mayflower, sphalerite?
<sphalerite> gchristensen: oh and elm-thing seems to be awesome, forgot to mention that bit
<samueldr> I was lucky enough to have been able to save a project with nix, proving its value to my client :)
<sphalerite> gchristensen: yep they're on my to-contact list :D
<gchristensen> samueldr: way to go!
<gchristensen> sphalerite: <3
<andi-> I am still at the uboot phase of placing nix expressions everywhere and convincing fellow co-workers that sharing dev envs via nix expressions is a much saner approach...
<samueldr> the following step was to use nix for the new dev environment for the post-MVP application (their MVP was a mess and they knew it)
<samueldr> the neat thing is that nobody batted an eye, they all either didn't care (boo) or understood the value (yay)
<LnL> I've not pushed to get nix in our product
<LnL> but I've managed to convince other people to sell nix for me for developer tooling, etc. :D
<samueldr> (I was in a controlling position at $client, I was there for my experience and not for code monkey businessing)
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<sir_guy_carleton> i've asked before, but ... what's the best 2fa 'second auth. method' for personal accounts? using a usb key or a cell phone app? if the former, what the best key system?
<gchristensen> I like yubikey's u2f when I can use it
<gchristensen> failing that, I like Authy for TOTP
<sphalerite> meh, eelco doesn't want to get rid of packageOverrides. Big surprise there.
<gchristensen> did you see my comments about that in #nixos-dev?
<LnL> I'm not sure if it's a good idea to remove it yet either, it's not even deprecated in 18.03 and I'm pretty sure a lot of people still use it for stuff where overlays wouldn't really gain them anything.
<gchristensen> yeah
<gchristensen> (but I'm biased to my own position of liking packageOverrides)
<MichaelRaskin> I think I don't use it, but I agree that breaking configurations is a significant cost, and it is not clear what makes it worth the hassle
<gchristensen> MichaelRaskin++
<{^_^}> MichaelRaskin's karma got increased to 8
<LnL> gchristensen: I can ssh to t2m.cunat.cz over ipv6
<LnL> same with 2604:1380:0:d00::1, but that's a different machine
<gchristensen> mine can't connect
<LnL> hmm, forcing v4 doesn't seem to work tho
<andi-> gchristensen: traceroute -p 22 -T t2m.cunat.cz
<andi-> LnL: it doesn't have an A record
<LnL> yeah, just noticed that
<andi-> same with 443 is different? ;-)
<gchristensen> updated the gist, andi-
<andi-> mhm interesting
<andi-> can you do the same against 2a00:e67:1e1::1? I happen to have peering session with that "core-backbone" ISP…
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<gchristensen> one sec
<andi-> interesting.. so it is indeed something on the path :/
<gchristensen> neat
<andi-> if you do a ping6 there you get the address unreachable..
<gchristensen> nice
<gchristensen> this is really fun
<andi-> but the issue seems to be within starnet
<gchristensen> did yuo see these results?
<gchristensen> https://atlas.ripe.net/measurements/15239018/?lm15239018.start=1531686502&lm15239018.stop=1531686642&lm15239018.measurements=15239018&lm15239018.groups=US,BR,AR,DO,CA&lm15239018.groups-component=15239018M2285,3280,3423,3525,3620,3666L15239018M6349,10866,16689,24628,29081,31562L15239018M6170,17936,19416,31458,33955L15239018M6364,21097L15239018M10982,14099,14779,15106,17620,20733&lm15239018.groups-type=mult
<gchristensen> i-probes,multi-probes,multi-probes,multi-probes,multi-probes#!probes
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<andi-> Could as well be a firewall issue there.. not sure what IP originates that unreachable thingy.. could be his router on behalf of the device that is now off..
<gchristensen> don't think so
<gchristensen> LnL can ssh to it :)
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<LnL> huh, I can't anymore...
<gchristensen> oh boy
<LnL> still responds to ping tho
<andi-> oh, now it does again.. A minute or two it didnt
<andi-> ssh also works for me :/
<LnL> oh it's back :)
<LnL> maybe vcunat rebooted it?
<gchristensen> mysteries ...
<gchristensen> I hate macs
<andi-> But they are so shiny :-)
<gchristensen> friendly to home users, unfriendly to any sort of ... what I do wit them
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<infinisil> gchristensen: Do you need to use them for work?
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