gchristensen changed the topic of #nixos-chat to: NixOS but much less topical || https://logs.nix.samueldr.com/nixos-chat
<andi-> just had one of those datahand moments.. And turned out cransom talked about it last year and in February.. really thinking of printing one instead of a dactyl...
<gchristensen> ooh!
<pie_> the webextensions situation is really frustrating
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<cransom> i was curious about it once, printed out one of the halfs of a dactyl and plugged in switches just to see how it felt and i didn't fancy it
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* adisbladis chimes in
<adisbladis> I also don't like the Dactyl
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<cole-h> Someone mind pinging me? Testing notifications.
<adisbladis> cole-h: ping!
<cole-h> Pong, thanks.
<andi-> Yeah, the dactyl might be an upgrade coming from anything but a kinesis :/
<andi-> I was for a while hoping that it would make a good "mobile" replacement but that is probably wrong.. you need some palm rests to actually type on it for longer times.
<andi-> and then it is suddenly very bulky
<gchristensen> I was eyeing the atreus recently ...
<andi-> aren't the "halves" too close togehter on that one?
<gchristensen> but I don't really need a "mobile"
<adisbladis> Tell me when there is a split topre... I will throw bags of money at that
<gchristensen> imo yes
<cransom> i built one and it's sitting in a box yet. i should get it back out as my brain might be malleable enough again now to deal with the reduced number of keys that i thought was too hard.
<cransom> (atreus, that is)
<andi-> I think (yet) another kinesis with different switches would be nice.. Something heavier
<ashkitten> i really like the keyboardio model01
<gchristensen> ashkitten: want to trade? I'd love to have your LF :)
<ashkitten> i haven't gotten to try other ergo keyboards but this one is really good
<ashkitten> gchristensen: my what?
<gchristensen> oops andi- ^
<ashkitten> oh
<andi-> I have been typing on that one since it came back :D
<andi-> not giving it away.. I still have the non-LF somewhere and sometimes it is nice but most of the time I like the LF these days
<gchristensen> (kinesis advantage with cherry mx reds)
<andi-> that being said that changes every few months
<gchristensen> andi-: oh I thought you said you wanted something heavier?
<andi-> additionally
<andi-> to switch between
<gchristensen> ah hehe
<{^_^}> SamHH/bukubrow-webext#141 (by w4grfw, 9 weeks ago, open): searching: order should not matter
<gchristensen> mine are all browns. I can't imagine going heavier
<adisbladis> gchristensen: I can highly recommend trying https://zealpc.net/products/zilents#
<ashkitten> the main thing with the model01 is that the switches they chose have too much grease from the factory or something and tend to need to be washed out thoroughly with alcohol after a while
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<adisbladis> It's by far the best mechanical switch I've ever tried
<adisbladis> In fact, it's one of very few I can stand
<ashkitten> but otherwise it's a beautiful keyboard and makes me forget i have rsi
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<gchristensen> adisbladis: really, I want to get a topre keyboard -- but I'm anxious spending that kind of money on a flat keyboard
<gchristensen> the thing that makes atreus attractive is it isn't so much for an experiment I may not care for
<pie_> infinisil: oh you use buku, neat
<adisbladis> gchristensen: ^
<adisbladis> That's me
<pie_> infinisil: do i need to do anything fancy
<gchristensen> adisbladis: haha, fair
<ashkitten> can i ask do yall have rsi? like, can you comfortably use a standard keyboard?
* adisbladis <- RSI
<andi-> most definitely yes, sometimes worse sometimes better..
<gchristensen> severely yes, ashkitten
<aanderse> about 4 or 5 months ago it started to hurt when i use a keyboard, not sure if that counts :\
<gchristensen> and no
<andi-> and no, I can't type on a regular keyboard for more than a few hours if required..
<ashkitten> okay
<infinisil> pie_: Ah no I don't use buku
<emily> ashkitten: sadly, if using non-ergonomic input devices for extended periods of time, any "no" comes with an expiry date
<andi-> I can do but the following days are hell
<pie_> infinisil: oh weird ok, youre listed as the maintainer
<bqv> I had mx blues once, was great. Browns now, less great
<gchristensen> lots of numb hands for me, if I do. especially at night. no fun waking up with a noodle for an arm
<infinisil> pie_: I used it for a bit some time ago
<andi-> ^ that I got too :/
<ashkitten> emily: yeah, all these flat standard layout keyboards make me worry for the people using them
<pie_> infinisil: why did you stop
<infinisil> Just wasn't very convenient I guess, and didn't integrate well iirc
<pie_> >_<
<pie_> well i might as well try it anyway
* emily is a laptop user with horrible ergonomics... but owns a Model 01 and a fancy chair and will totally switch to an ergonomic desktop setup Real Soon Now™...
<ashkitten> gchristensen: for me i get what feels like how people describe tendonitis? after using a laptop keyboard for like 2 minutes
<emily> narrator: she got carpal tunnel before getting around to it
<gchristensen> aye
<gchristensen> emily: your ability to type is your money-maker, presumably, take care
<ashkitten> like my wrists start to burn really bad
<abathur> once in a blue moon I'll get a bit of that carpal tunnel inflamation, though thus far I've been pretty lucky in this regard
<andi-> I should really look into that standing desk setup again.. Only doing some on/off planning without much structure
<abathur> I'll blame it on having to stop to think more than I get to type
<bqv> I feel id regret a standing desk almost immediately
<samueldr> speaking of standing desk... today my cat thought it would be a great idea to sit right behind my feet
<ashkitten> wait, do i have carpal tunnel,
<ashkitten> hm
<infinisil> gchristensen: Maybe in the future we'll have interfaces that hook directly into our minds, so we don't need eyes to see it or hands to control it :o
<gchristensen> ashkitten: any numb fingers?
<gchristensen> infinisil: :D
<MichaelRaskin> andi-: Get enough boxes
<ashkitten> gchristensen: my fingers go numb when i hold my phone sometimes?
<andi-> MichaelRaskin: boxes what for?
<andi-> well for the keyboard..
<infinisil> I guess UI designers still need to see stuff though
<andi-> *feel*
<MichaelRaskin> Keyboard + laptop
<ashkitten> gchristensen: but using my model01 is fine
<andi-> MichaelRaskin: I don't use a laptop
<gchristensen> ashkitten: which fingers?
<aanderse> someone in #nixos pointed out a video for programming with your voice which led me to look at https://talonvoice.com/
<MichaelRaskin> Well, then for the monitor maybe
<cransom> i have a convertible standing/sitting desk and part way through the year i switch to the other position, usually.
<pie_> infinisil: how did you get the addon talking to the client
<aanderse> i'm sorta waiting to see how that matures
<aanderse> very interested in trying it, though
<pie_> / host
<ashkitten> gchristensen: uhhh ring and pinky i think
<MichaelRaskin> infinisil: allowing UI designers to look at things too much is how we lost the good old web
<gchristensen> ashkitten: look up "cubital tunnel"
<cole-h> colemickens: Figured my problem with swaylock. Needed to add `security.pam.services.swaylock = {};` to configuration.nix :D
<ashkitten> gchristensen: omg
<abathur> I guess the big thing AFAIK is to be aware that it's all inflammation, and that there's no powering through it
<hexa-> cole-h: ugh, I've been there :<
<gchristensen> ashkitten: do NOT look up the surgery. they don't do it that way anymore.
<ashkitten> gchristensen: i forgot my hand falls asleep when i'm playing games sometimes with my elbow on the desk
<abathur> it just get worse, unless you let it get better
<cole-h> hexa-: lol
<gchristensen> abathur+++++++++
<hexa-> cole-h: fwiw: I did programs.sway.enable = true;
<cole-h> hexa-: Yeah, that does it for you.
<cole-h> But I'm using nixpkgs-wayland in my h-m setup
<ashkitten> abathur++
<{^_^}> abathur's karma got increased to 2
<emily> oh now that's an exciting pile of errors https://logs.nix.ci/?key=nixos/nixpkgs.86683&attempt_id=65141019-0f8e-4db9-aff1-4672825805d7
<cole-h> o7
<cole-h> Good luck on that PR
<emily> I guess it's using Quartz GTK
<ashkitten> i wish i had the money to try an ergonomic keyboard earlier than i did
<MichaelRaskin> I need to make sure I do not bend my wrists in the wrong direction for too long. Otherwise I am fine. Both typing and carrying 10+ kgs per hand.
<ashkitten> i got my model01 on ebay for like $200 i think
<joepie91> ,locate lsinitrd
<colemickens> cole-h: I didn't know you were having problems, I would've suggested it. We were discussing it in home-manager, the HM module should probably go ahead and do that
<emily> does the gtk we build for darwin even support x11?
<{^_^}> Couldn't find in any packages
<colemickens> I still feel weird about continuing to have to move copy stuff from nixpkgs to hm, but its how it goes
<cole-h> Some day I'll get around to bringing the nixpkgs fish module on-par with the h-m fish module
<MichaelRaskin> Maybe that's a sign that a lot of that stuff should just be services or whatever, completely agnostic whether it is called from HM or NixOS, and HM/NixOS should just compose it. Maaaaybe.
<pie_> infinisil: ok guess you just need to run buku at least once before trying to run the addon so it inits something, and theb bukubrow install works
<colemickens> can I see yours? I just use the default fish config
<cole-h> Sure, uno momento
<cole-h> colemickens: https://paste.rs/dUm
<cole-h> (Sorry, haven't logged in to GH on this new setup yet lol)
<emily> MichaelRaskin: the per-user services are NixOS is pretty crappy, I'd rather see them just get removed and home-manager brought in-tree
<emily> you can always just use home-manager from nixos config after all
<ashkitten> i wish that accessibility tools were more accessible to low-income people (which is most people who need accessibility tools)
<adisbladis> emily: This 1000x
<gchristensen> truth
<MichaelRaskin> emily: some things seem to be shared between system services and HM, no?
<emily> perhaps to an extent, but a lot of it is just "this stuff should have been per-user from the beginning" imo
<ashkitten> emily++
<{^_^}> emily's karma got increased to 27
<adisbladis> cole-h: I always forget about abbrs
<colemickens> cole-h: thanks! can you explain this "Set PATH without actually modifying PATH"
<MichaelRaskin> emily: a lot of stuff is just «this code should not even care if it is per-user»
<ashkitten> home-manager was created because nixup was not getting anywhere for years, rigtht? maybe we can finally close the nixup issue and include hm in the nixpkgs tree
<gchristensen> sgtm
<cole-h> colemickens: Sure. Fish uses `fish_user_paths` for resolution in addition to $PATH, but `fish_user_paths` doesn't pollute the env
<emily> MichaelRaskin: I agree in theory, but am a bit sceptical of how many existing NixOS modules that actually applies to
<infinisil> ashkitten: That's a problem because it's a pain to make changes to nixpkgs
<MichaelRaskin> HM maintainers have objected to that FWIW
<infinisil> ashkitten: The whole PR overloading issue
<colemickens> there was a BFDL thread on discourse and it seemed like the opinion was popular (I was also thinking "merging HM and nixpkgs/nixos seems easier/better")
<emily> MichaelRaskin: you're talking about stuff which makes equal sense as a system-wide service or a per-user thing, and that touches basically no other system config
<ashkitten> maybe flakes will solve it, then
<infinisil> If all PRs to home-manager now also need to go through nixpkgs, this would slow things down considerably
<adisbladis> ashkitten: Sounds handwavy
<colemickens> cole-h: I am trying to decide if I want the path pollution or not. Have you hit a case that caused you to seek out this behavior?
<cole-h> colemickens: It's alsos omething I should remove because that was from my previous system, and I no longer have most of those paths :P
<ashkitten> adisbladis: i know, but all of flakes sounds handwavy
<MichaelRaskin> emily: well, there is also nix-darwin
<cole-h> colemickens: I really don't remember why I used that :D
<colemickens> cole-h: aha fair enough, thx
<MichaelRaskin> Touching no system config is actually a pretty weak condition
<adisbladis> HM has some serious issues that NixOS does not have
<cole-h> Maybe I read on the issue tracker somewhere that it's preferred over modifying PATH
<MichaelRaskin> A lot of stuff satisfies
<emily> flakes doesn't solve having a consistent monorepo with consistent standards which is why I'd actually want it merged
<adisbladis> Since $HOME has traditionally been very stateful HM activation can fail relatively easily
<emily> (I realize this is basically arguing "yes, the slowdown would be desired"...)
<MichaelRaskin> > consistent standards — are we still discussing Nixpkgs?
<{^_^}> error: syntax error, unexpected $undefined, expecting ')', at (string):310:22
<emily> I can dream, right??
<adisbladis> MichaelRaskin: Pretty consistently no standards ;)
<adisbladis> That's the standard
<MichaelRaskin> There are standards, just so many of them you have lost track
<ashkitten> the issue i'm having is that we all seem to want *something* available by default, which is what nixup was supposed to be originally, and then got destroyed by years of bikeshedding until multiple people got so tired of it that they spun off their own things
<ashkitten> which seems to be a common thing in nixos
<emily> that's politics for you
<gchristensen> and big projects have politics
<emily> including the part where any merge back upstream inevitably kills the things that the people splitting off were aiming for :P
<ashkitten> :<
<MichaelRaskin> NixOS/HM/Nix-Darwin somehow share Nixpkgs and somehow fail to share service code
<MichaelRaskin> I would say that the aim should be to share service code to make all the divergence cheap
<MichaelRaskin> And then have more divergence, because different interfaces suit different usecases, surprise
<ashkitten> MichaelRaskin: if there was a way to pull in parts of things granularly, we'd have a lot less problems
<emily> MichaelRaskin: well, adding nix-darwin makes it even more complicated, systemd/launchd cross-compatibility is a huge ask
<ashkitten> but unfortunately that's not how modules are designed rn
<MichaelRaskin> The valuable part of NixOS services is config generation
<emily> that's a statement I do not agree with thb
<emily> tbh
<emily> the config generation tends to be the first part of nixos services you outgrow
<ashkitten> emily: i've been talking about wanting to write generic process manager things for a month at least now
<emily> it's the system integration I find valuable, and that stuff is hard to make portable
<MichaelRaskin> Erm, what else is left?
<emily> I assume you meant "generation of software end-configuration in its native format"
<emily> rather than "generating of system configuration as a whole"
<emily> in which case your statement is precisely true tautologically yes :p
<MichaelRaskin> Generating the integration is cheap
<MichaelRaskin> Not in the sense that it is not useful, but in the sense that most services do not need much
<infinisil> Maybe we should have abstract option interfaces under service-instances.<service-name>.<instance-key>.*
<MichaelRaskin> Basically, you have knowledge how to generate per-service native configs (including the commandline parameters to start it), which doesn't even care whether you cared to implement multi-instancing or whatever
<ashkitten> MichaelRaskin: i'd love to be able to multi-instance services without containers, please
<infinisil> This could have things like .port, and other settings
<aanderse> infinisil: i'm not following what service-instances.service-name.instance-key.* is for, can you elaborate?
<infinisil> And would export a .configFile
<aanderse> ashkitten: yes multi-instance services woul be so fantastic...
<infinisil> So essentially service-instances.<service-name>.<instance-key>.* would just be an interface for generating config files from nixos options
<MichaelRaskin> ashkitten: just evaluate multiple single-service NixOS configs, export the runner scripts, and declare them services
<MichaelRaskin> Problem solved
<MichaelRaskin> Yes, modules system is _the problem_ here, not the solution
<ashkitten> i agree
<MichaelRaskin> It is used two layers too low
<ashkitten> i think the modules system doesn't do what we need from it, which is making composable easily overridable config bits
<MichaelRaskin> Modules system is global shared practically-mutable state, so it should not go into the levels where things could be reasonably isolated
<infinisil> MichaelRaskin: As previously elaborated, the module system is anything but mutable
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<pie_> uhh how old is firefox 70 because apparently im still on 70
<hexa-> 10/2019
<hexa-> rip
<ashkitten> 10 years
<pie_> wow thats like half a year ago wut
<pie_> jtojnar: will anything be better when i update ff? xD
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<pie_> looks like its the version stable probably has though
<pie_> that would also explain why i dont have the desktop restore behaviour yet
<gchristensen> 20.03 has ff75
<pie_> ok thats odd
<hexa-> hm 76
<gchristensen> too dangerous to keep ancient versions :)
* pie_ switched his firefox command to call a build against unstable
<pie_> i was angry about the extensions hotkey editing interface not being able to remove hotkeys and it turned out they added it in the next version
<cole-h_> Man do I love NixOS. Tomorrow, I'm gonna try to setup NixOps, reinstall on my test disk, and then I think it'll be time to try it on the real thing...
<cole-h_> (After I get VFIO working, that is)
<MichaelRaskin> Oh cool, so when my Marionette-based removal of Ctrl-W in some of the instances stops working, it will be replaceable with an extension at least
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<joepie91> woohoo my new desktop is working!
<joepie91> after an upgrade to 20.03 lol
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<colemickens> cole-h: wat
<colemickens> cole-h:
<joepie91> this is the first time in my life that I've had hardware new enough that the last-before-latest release of a distr odoesn't work..
<emily> I wish ofborg let you shell in after a failed Darwin build >_>
<gchristensen> emily: LnL had an idea on how to do that ...
<pie_> MichaelRaskin: apparnetly hotkey handling is nevertheless limited
<gchristensen> hexa-: s/75/76/
<emily> gchristensen: I know it's something sourcehut's CI supports, fwiw
<pie_> MichaelRaskin: this stuff would drive me nuts if i was an addon dev
<pie_> MichaelRaskin: i cant link you the so issue listing th elimitations because im in the middle of restarting ff
<emily> gchristensen: would be pretty big amounts of trust to put in trusted-users given the lack of sandboxing for macos though
<gchristensen> emily: it would basically require erasing the mac, adding your key, and erasing it once you were done
<emily> gchristensen: perfect, I'll use it for all my throwaway mac needs
<emily> VNC in there and play around with garageband for a while
<emily> can't beat free
<infinisil> What if Nix had a builtin breakpointHook
<infinisil> nix-build --debug-on-fail
<infinisil> Or so
<gchristensen> emily: that is basically how the macs all work for the build farm. macos VMs which are erased daily
<emily> infinisil: I'd love that
<joepie91> samueldr: no, I want an internal drive, I do actually use it regularly :P
<samueldr> I was wondering on a more technical standpoint
<samueldr> is it slower to burn (if you burn), or to read?
<samueldr> I don't know if it saturates SATA, and if it does, if USB would be enough
<joepie91> def won't saturate SATA
<joepie91> and no idea
<joepie91> but also about to sleep :D
<samueldr> sleep on that :)
<pie_> infinisil: jtojnar: i expected the buku stuff to be better for ingesting my mass of tabs but it looks like its unwieldy :(
<{^_^}> jarun/buku#304 (by dakka2, 1 year ago, closed): Add Date Information / Make Tag date more accurate
<pie_> fml
<pie_> why are all knowledge management tools bad
<pie_> hyperfekt: ;_;
<pie_> - bookmark tool sucks (maybe there are other better ones...)
<pie_> - session managers dont exist because webextensions
<pie_> - tab managers cant handle the load
<ashkitten> the problem i have is i'm very bad at tagging my shit so i'd rather have a thing do it for me
<pie_> yeah but like i cant even get that far
<pie_> oh. my. gosh.
<pie_> well lets try tree style tab again with my new updated firefox
<pie_> here goes nothing
<abathur> I guess my more substantive problem is that I don't actually "archive structured knowledge" so much as I "hoard aspirationally interesting tabs"
<pie_> yes sure
<abathur> and no amount of tagging will fix this
<abathur> :]
<pie_> right
<pie_> but
<pie_> if your entire environment is slow as hell because of your aspirationally interesting tabs its hard to improve
<abathur> true
<abathur> I just click the window, bookmark all tabs, close the window, and pretend I'll see them again someday
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<pie_> i only do that with lewds
<abathur> a land of makebelieve
<pie_> nothing else gets ingested into bookmark hell because its unusable
<abathur> I have a sad subgenre of bookmark-folder prefixed with "recover <projectname>"
<pie_> though i guess bookmarking info a folder saves all the relevant structure - namely order of tabs and i guess it gets the metadata too
<abathur> some of the projects are dead now
<abathur> some have been completed for years
<pie_> sure
<abathur> some I'm working on right now
<pie_> but if you just serialize a continuation then you have a chance of picking up where you left off
<pie_> i have countless things in flight at a given moment
<abathur> yeah
<abathur> that's how I treat my terminal tabs
<abathur> though it seems like others don't, but I think it may also be a more mac-idiomatic thing
<abathur> I keep a tab open per project that isn't dead, roughly
<abathur> so I have tabs I haven't actually used in years, with scrollbacks intact, ready to resume should the need arise
<abathur> maybe that's what I really need! to waste|spend|invest a few months of my life integrating my terminal history and bookmarks!
<abathur> I try to treat my browser that way, but the browser eventally starts performing poorly enough that I have to go sack a window or two
<abathur> so it rarely has a window older than maybe 2 years?
<abathur> I used to be great about clipping everything to evernote and tagging it
<pie_> abathur: helllo yes i have a thread https://github.com/tmux-python/tmuxp/issues/522
<{^_^}> tmux-python/tmuxp#522 (by deliciouslytyped, 22 weeks ago, open): tmux-resurrect/tmux-continuum alternative?
<abathur> but I don't search/consume/read it often enough to keep myself convinced its productive and not just intellectual palliative care
<pie_> also consider: spaced repetition for old projects
<pie_> not interesting? go deeper into stack
<abathur> I guess my thing is (pretends it isn't ~everyone's~thing~) multi-year trans-continental yak-shaving expeditions
<abathur> so it's not so much that I forget the old project
<pie_> if it was everyones thing WHY DO ALL THE WORKFLOWS SUCK
<pie_> aaaaAAAaaaAAaaaa
<cole-h> colemickens: "wat" what?
<abathur> but that I have to shave 10 other yaks before
<abathur> I can get back to it
<abathur> like, for example, this week I resumed work on a project to revise the documentation for an old MUD
<pie_> abathur: so what is this terminal thing that you can keep your scrollback like that with
<abathur> oh, just the macOS Terminal.app
<pie_> abathur: anyway i appreciate your sympathy
<abathur> plus the general macOS window saved-state system thing
* pie_ throws up arms in the air
<pie_> how do the rest of us not have this
<abathur> also, plus my own scripts to back up the state directory and port it between laptops
<abathur> yeah, I don't understand it either
<pie_> i know nothng about macs but ive been wondering about them for a few weeks how *maybe* they have some things that are actually good and noone else seems to care about
<pie_> but nevermind
<pie_> s/care/have resources/whatever/
<pie_> the obvious solution is that i should forget all the things im working on and start a new session again
<abathur> I'm honestly not sure I could force myself to do much serious work on a linux without it (aside, obviously, from figuring out why everyone toots tmux's horn)
<abathur> though it's got a weak spot, which is that there's no real regular cross-system workflow here
<pie_> abathur: note the tmux thread i linked is to get this scrollback functionality that we dont really have
<pie_> well we have it via tmux continuum but its a pile of bash scripts
<abathur> nod
* pie_ continues screaming internally
<pie_> abathur: did i already say i appreciate your sympathy?
<abathur> do you want to see one? I suppose I can bother a screenshot if I can find an old tab without any dirty laundry in it
<abathur> <3 pie_
<{^_^}> pie_'s karma now has 2 digits!
<pie_> i wish i could do gchristensen's stateless things
<pie_> and people that keep their tab counts low
<pie_> but thats just not how i work
<pie_> so it reduces to constrain state, and manage the state that i do have ergonomically
<pie_> or something
<pie_> anyway...
<pie_> im not even good at implementation __I cant build ALL this stuff myself__ give ro take a few years
<pie_> do i start #nixos-knowledgemanagement or somethin
<infinisil> #nixos-wiki?
<pie_> abathur: at least theres some evidence that im not crazy
<pie_> infinisil: that doesnt seem right?
<samueldr> I think pie_ wants ##notnixos-chat-about-knowledge-management :)
<samueldr> not sure
<pie_> something something
<abathur> my oldest actual scrollback in a tab goes back to ~march 2018 it looks like
<samueldr> though I think here is fine
<pie_> why is the sun up at 4:30 am nooooo
<samueldr> pie_: because even though things seem to be at a standstill, the earth continues to revolve around the sun
<pie_> throw me into the sun
<lovesegfault> samueldr: did something in the rpi4 image change again? I can't reboot into my config :P
<samueldr> lovesegfault: I haven't touched the rpi4 image since the moment it was introduced
<samueldr> and the image build shouldn't affect existing deployments
<lovesegfault> idk what's up then; should FIRMWARE mount to /boot or /boot/firmware?
<hexa-> to /boot
<lovesegfault> it's a new deployment
<lovesegfault> hexa-: Ah, then that's why
<hexa-> you have it like that already apparently
<hexa-> but yeah, if your boot isn't mounted properly …
<samueldr> since the rpi4 abuses the sd image stuff without touching the partition names, "FIRMWARE" is actually "/boot but for raspberry pi bootloader stuff"
<samueldr> so yeah, it needs to be mounted at /boot
<samueldr> I'm still annoyed at how the foundation apparently did no work at all to make it mainline palatable...
<abathur> pie_: I also basically wrote a sublime text extension that lets me do this there, too, kinda
<pie_> ok bed time i can rant more tomorrow
<abathur> pie_: it just like, saves a "group" of sublime projects, so that I can open/close them all together, which helps me manage some of these yak-shaves that turn into 8 subprojects
<abathur> since I can just close the whole group when I need them out of my face for 15 months to shave some other yak
<pie_> i have a 200 line project setup envrc that still has more things to be added to it
<pie_> abathur: well yeah something like that is what id like to do
<pie_> and another crazy scheme i came up with is instead of having a root repository for a project i have a root directory with git worktrees in it, so if i end up in some uncommitted intermediate state i can make another worktree
<abathur> I'd kinda like a browser extension around the same concept
<pie_> but yes
<pie_> what this all boils down to
<abathur> though I guess the real promised land is merging them all
<pie_> is i want a goddamn pause button
<abathur> oh yeah
<abathur> I also put a thing in my backup run
<abathur> that like, saves the output of git status
<abathur> for every git repo it finds
<abathur> to like, .git-status in that directory
<pie_> also something something orthogonal persistence
<pie_> half the reason im so nuts about this stuff is my machine used to crash periodically
<pie_> abathur: what does that do
<abathur> we all have scars
<pie_> abathur: i mean whats the poin tof savng that
<abathur> oh sorry I didn't finish the thought
<abathur> ls
<abathur> I need to find one
<abathur> it also saves a diff between the previous status next to it
<abathur> so that if I restore it, I can see what I was doing there the last time the status reports differed
<abathur> well, even if I don't restore it
<pie_> stil not *quite*following but i could keep doing this for a few more hours we should talk about this more later
<pie_> abathur: any chance you want to do a bit of a braindump in a text file?
<abathur> so a .git_status and .git_status.diff
<abathur> I also have a sad sublime project named braindump that is full of text files :(
<pie_> crazy thought: half my problem with the buku stuff is bad datawrangling, obviously i should use R
<pie_> aaaaaa
<abathur> oh I forgot how I do it
<abathur> I am smarter than I think sometimes
<abathur> .git_status.diff is appended each time
<abathur> so I have a log of the status at each ~2x daily~ backup
<abathur> just in case?
<pie_> abathur: i would appreciate a brain dump of your pause button mechanisms
<pie_> but i gotta sleeep
<abathur> oui
<pie_> i could keep going for a while but i shouldnt
<abathur> yes
<abathur> I need to make food, and I have a deploy later
<pie_> how many of my problems does emacs already solve?
<pie_> i need to start a patreon and get enough people to throw money at me that i can work on this
<pie_> somehow i dont see that being viable
<pie_> jtojnar: oh no i just rememebered i think i stopped using tree tabs because it forgot the structure like you said
<pie_> jtojnar: does that always happen?
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<emily> sad to report that I have the path /nix/store/jfhl7ga5drz1c1jp7ki4cba78mzagj0x-nicotine-plus-unstable-2020-05-18/lib/python3.7/site-packages/nix/store/ihy2vly61ndky6qlv1q4dfdiv28vszkh-python3-3.7.7/share on my system
<emily> python stuff loves looking at sys.prefix
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<jtojnar> emily the install paths in setup.py need to be relative
<jtojnar> and there is gtk3-x11, emacs and vim use it iirc
<emily> can't use gtk3-x11 to test a non-X11 nicotine that was just built, though
<emily> it would have to be an entirely separate build to test it
<emily> (I could condition the tests on whether gtk3 supports X11 but it doesn't seem to actually expose that as an attribute :( )
<emily> but yeah, fixed the install path stuff, just need to upstream it...
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<jtojnar> I recall upstream issue being linked in https://github.com/NixOS/nixpkgs/issues/23438
<{^_^}> #23438 (by bennofs, 3 years ago, open): Python packages installing absolute paths to $out/lib/python-xxx/site-packages
<jtojnar> but apparently, I misremeber
<emily> not sure if it's correct but it worked
<emily> setuptools at least says that relative paths are recommended and should just work I guess
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<ashkitten> why are there google packages on my lineageos phone :/
<ashkitten> i haven't installed gapps of any form
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<colemickens> anyone ever used a pcie<->nvme adapter? it should *just work* but doesn't?
<colemickens> aha, it's a sata drive with an m2 connector -_- cool
<clever> colemickens: the first time i used one (a proper pcie one), i just didnt insert it all the way into the socket
<clever> took a few hours to figure out
<clever> the key is usually on a different side, to stop a sata one from fitting into a pcie adapter
<colemickens> my sata one had cut outs on both sides :| it seemed like it also would've been possible to insert upside down
<colemickens> which was also a concern for a second
<clever> the keys are slightly different distances from the edges
<clever> but that implies it should be both pcie and sata
<colemickens> the adapter itself only had one notch
<colemickens> the drive had two, uh, female notches?
<colemickens> my terminology here is weak
<clever> the adapter should always have at least one key, to ensure it goes in the right way
<clever> hmmm, yeah, now i'm confused, lol
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<eyJhb> colemickens: what drive is it?
<eyJhb> Haven't used one, but should be straight forward
<eyJhb> Also, not sure it it is the female/male terminology that is confusing or just how to describe it :p
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<bqv> Yo dawg…so I put a nix store in your nix store…
<Valodim> tfw you google "nix hydra" and the first page contains no relevant hits
<MichaelRaskin> «Google» — that's your mistake right there
<MichaelRaskin> In DDG github:NixOS/Hydra is 11th result, fits first page
<srk> ,hydra
<bqv> 5th on qwant
<bqv> Imagine actually using google in 2020
<MichaelRaskin> But no-JS version of Qwant finds nothing at all
<MichaelRaskin> (not sure how they achieved that)
<bqv> Rip
<MichaelRaskin> But yeah, Nix Hydra Games — who also have their own store, of course! — indeed win the slot competition.
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<Valodim> MichaelRaskin: in bing, you mean
<MichaelRaskin> In bing it is fourth
<MichaelRaskin> DDG mixes sources
<MichaelRaskin> And slightly reorders, and has a small own index.
<bqv> Qwant is sovereign ;)
<MichaelRaskin> Hmm, in Yandex the repo is 10th
<__monty__> DDG uses google search results?
<MichaelRaskin> On a reload, in DDG it is 8th
<Valodim> "hydra nix" works just fine tho :)
<MichaelRaskin> __monty__: I think Google is one thing they do not use
<__monty__> bqv: What does sovereign mean? I assumed federation for some reason.
<bqv> Works on its own, no dependencies
<bqv> Has its own index
<__monty__> Are the search results any good though?
<bqv> Yes
<bqv> I haven't used anything but qwant since 2019
<bqv> No regrets
<__monty__> Does it have a french bias?
<bqv> No?
<bqv> I'm in britain…
<bqv> I just like that its not american
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<__monty__> Is it just me or does this sentence make little sense? Implementations SHOULD close the connection when the security services in a SASL security layer report protocol data report lack of data integrity.
<joepie91> __monty__: that reads like an editing error
<joepie91> I suspect they used to say "protocol data" and then clarified it to "SASL security layer" and forgot to remove the original
<joepie91> (if this is an RFC, e-mail one of the authors about it)
<__monty__> joepie91: Yeah, the double report makes it weird though.
<__monty__> I will. You think they want typo reports too?
<joepie91> __monty__: "the security services in a SASL security layer report [...]", "protocol data report [...]"
<joepie91> if you look at it as forgetting to remove the latter, it makes sense
<joepie91> __monty__: yeah, it's probably fine to send anything that makes a spec hard to understand
<joepie91> I've submitted a bug report to the HLS spec before, it was vague about something, and that got patched too
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<pie_> firefox 76 seems to be more responsive than 70 but it swaps harder..
<pie_> and my windows are acting hella broken
<pie_> ok maybe the firefox process handling those specific windows is screwed
<pie_> lol i managed to bug it out in a way that pressing alt makes the menu show up but none of the buttons are there
<pie_> alternative theory: i wasnt there to press the continue button on "script is lagging out firefox" so it killed the ui renderer
<sphalerite> wat
<pie_> yes thats a thing sort of
<sphalerite> I mean, I'm familiar with that offer
<sphalerite> but why is firefox so slow for you?
<sphalerite> bqv: huh, xonsh aliases are weird. That seems like the wrong way round to define aliases.
<pie_> sphalerite: 5k tabs
<pie_> swapping
<pie_> im gonna start a new profile again today i think
<__monty__> pie_: You accumulate tabs in profiles and then just start new ones?
<pie_> this "attempt to improve my workflow" thing didnt really work out
<__monty__> Do you ever go back to old profiles?
<pie_> sometimes
<__monty__> How are tabs easier to find again than bookmarks, btw?
<pie_> usually hte problem is i was gonna try to bookmarkize some stuf fbut nothing can handle it in a reasonable manner
<__monty__> Org-mode?
<pie_> s/usually hte//
<joepie91> I've been pretty happy with Simple Tab Groups
<joepie91> it also has a good tab search
<pie_> __monty__: bookmarks take extra steps
<sphalerite> pie_: what, you mean "bookmark all tabs" then closing the window?
<__monty__> pie_: ^D<CR>?
<pie_> i do that for windows that all contain the same content but most of my windows arent that organized
<pie_> tree style tab also has the right idea i think
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<pie_> well, i duplicated my session and individually dumped 150 windows into a bookmark folder each. ok.
<pie_> this still sucks.
<gchristensen> wow
<pie_> hm. weird that tree tabs is abandoned, it seems better than tree style tabs on the surface.
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<pie_> what was that weird nested knowledge management tool
<pie_> it had a very unique interface of nesting pages or someting like that
<pie_> joepie91 iirc maybe you know what im talking about?
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<joepie91> pie_: treesheets?
<pie_> yes thanks
<pie_> kept thinking treenotes treenotes thats not it
<pie_> so what im actually looking for is there was a guy that had en expansive blog reviewing stuff like this
<__monty__> pie_: Lots of note-taking method/software reviews can be found if you start at "zettelkasten."
<pie_> might have been https://www.mind-mapping.org/blog/ , im not sure the color scheme isnt as i remember it
<pie_> (sound familiar __monty__ ? ^ xD )
<__monty__> Not that particular one, no.
<infinisil> Just checked out treesheets a few days ago, really nice concept
<infinisil> I'll consider using it for note taking in the future
<julm> is there an easter-egg in nix or nixpkgs? like apt-get moo?
<pie_> __monty__: no i mean the color scheme problem
<pie_> might have been this blog though https://pauljmiller.wordpress.com/tag/onenote/
<pie_> well anyway this is a rabbithole for later
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<__monty__> joepie91: Requested Comments sent. Does this mean I have contributed to The Internet?! : o
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<joepie91> __monty__: yes, congratulations, you are now an official Greybeard
<joepie91> :P
<__monty__> 🤔 guess I should start growing one.
<jtojnar> treesheets are cool, I would like something like it for a window manager
<joepie91> I'm honestly surprised that >1 people here know of it
<infinisil> jtojnar: I learned about it from this recent thread: https://lobste.rs/s/7catij/how_do_you_take_notes_organize_your
<infinisil> Oh that was meant for joepie91
<joepie91> ah, nice
<joepie91> I still want a collab version of it :P
<joepie91> so if anyone's looking for a project...
<jtojnar> I think I saw a nixpkgs issue about it or something, long time ago
<andi-> I once contributed to an RFC lead by a few google people. Years later they asked me to give *Google* my copyrights on the material. IMHO RFCs are common good / public domains so I declined.
<pie_> yeesh
<pie_> i like how all the firefox sync docs still refer to the irc channels
* pie_ shakes fist
<__monty__> andi-: Guess you can't blame 'em for trying?
<andi-> I do. It is just the entirely wrong approach. If they want to establish a standard of sorts they shouldn't *own* it.
<andi-> If they needed that to submit it okay but they just wanted the standard CLA agreement.
<andi-> s/ agreement// (that was redundant)
<joepie91> andi-: oof
<joepie91> unfortunately not that surprising..
<joepie91> (and why I don't usually contribute to projects run by big tech companies)
<andi-> Yeah. And people can blame me for it but if I contribute something and those shit corps try to fuck with us I am very happy to "sabotage" their process of gaining code authorship. Probably doesn't change anything but at least I can do something..
<joepie91> andi-: I'm not sure what there is to blame
<joepie91> it's open-source work, said corporation can use it just like anyone else can
<joepie91> no need for them to have magical additional privileges or ownershop
<joepie91> ownership*
<andi-> joepie91: the usual Google defense is like "at least they did something! Don't you complain about it not being 100% proper."
<joepie91> did something as compared to...? :P
<andi-> all those lazy corps!!!11 ;)
<joepie91> andi-: ah yes, all those lazy corps that don't bother going through the effort of exploiting other people
<joepie91> other people's work *
<joepie91> which is, of course, an entirely reasonable baseline to measure against, in an ecosystem that is supposed to be a public commons and a public good, explicitly outside of the area of private ownership
<joepie91> :P
<andi-> Communist!!!
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<joepie91> andi-: https://logicmag.io/failure/freedom-isnt-free/ was an interesting read on the topic
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<emily> just got an important order for nixpkgs https://gist.github.com/emilazy/9ca0e484241f8e62b9ad539f02eb9680
<emily> can someone handle it plz
<emily> (in my spam folder)
<__monty__> Well now I'm curious what the order is.
* emily uploaded an image: Screenshot from 2020-05-19 15-41-28.png (125KB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/PFxXRXqdvqyEUWVvbWYNscZD >
<andi-> are they offering a Nix linter?
<emily> seems legitimate
<__monty__> Well?! What did it say after entering your password?!
<emily> I like how the "Forgot Password?" isn't a link, it's just underlined. it's just taunting you. haha, you forgot your password? moron
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<andi-> how dare you forget your password
<emily> __monty__: not sure, but after entering a string that definitely isn't my password it forwarded to https://www.dropbox.com/s/dl/rub5ul60pj6uxen/SCAN_PAYMENT_20190509.pdf.uue, maybe I should reply telling them they messed up the URL
<emily> and maybe also ask why they uuencoded a pdf
<joepie91> are there any known issues that make baloorunner break on NixOS 20.03?
<joepie91> since my upgrade, I don't have alt+spacebar anymore...
<joepie91> KDE settings claim the binding is still active
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<joepie91> ("Run Command" is how it's listed in Global Shortcuts)
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<joepie91> hm. apparently this is actually KRunner?
<joepie91> right-click desktop -> Show KRunner still works...
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<joepie91> aha, found the problem
<{^_^}> #88175 (by joepie91, 12 seconds ago, open): KRunner (KDE "Run Command") global keybinding broken after upgrade to 20.03 (+ workaround)
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<pie_> spacebar heating ? <joepie91> since my upgrade, I don't have alt+spacebar anymore...
<joepie91> hahaha
<joepie91> nah :P
<joepie91> it's the command runner
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<ajs124> joepie91: can confirm, ran into this as well
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<gchristensen> there is a thing packaged in nixpkgs for making a dedicated browser appear to be a program for a single website. anyone know the name?
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<Valodim> nix search kiosk?
<yorick> gchristensen: chromium --kiosk
<yorick> may be called chromium --app
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<gchristensen> nice
<gchristensen> thanks
<__monty__> Spreadsheets don't have a MAX_INDEX function?
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<cole-h_> gchristensen: How do you start your sway session again? You use systemd-run, right?
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<cole-h> lovesegfault: omg I figured out how to get non-crappy cursors with h-m
<lovesegfault> cole-h: :)
<cole-h> lovesegfault: https://paste.rs/NPf
<cole-h> Literally all that's needed
<cole-h> (If you want a different cursor theme, you need to make sure it has `<pkg>/share/icons/<name>/cursors` -- breeze-icons doesn't and I didn't feel like looking through all its related packages to see if I can find it)
<cole-h> tbh that xsession.pointerCursor thing isn't even really necessary -- could just do what it does and add `gtk.gtk.extraConfig = { "gtk-cursor-theme-name" = name; size = size; };`
<lovesegfault> cole-h: Oh, nice :D
* lovesegfault tries
<lovesegfault> cole-h: that xsession thing works on sway?
<cole-h> Did for me. But that's just because all it does is set gtk settings in ~/.config
<cole-h> (Note: probably need to restart sway when messing with this... maybe)
* lovesegfault nods
<lovesegfault> aight I'm trying
<cole-h> Or rather, I didn't test /without/ restarting sway
<lovesegfault> Yeah it doesn't do anything if I just reload the sway config
<lovesegfault> I'll restart it proper when I'm done with this meeting
<cole-h> :D
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<drakonis> nix on wsl will be truly something
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<drakonis> linux has finally won
<drakonis> across the board
<drakonis> nix on official windows repos when
<ornxka> wait, does nix even work on WSL?
<gchristensen> oh sure
<drakonis> it is a linux vm
<ornxka> ahh
<drakonis> time to submit a nix package
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<gchristensen> oh no
<lovesegfault> jesus lord
<cole-h> "oh sure" "oh no" lol
<drakonis> the story of my life
<emily> linking https://twitter.com/lambdakitten/status/1262816659531849733 since I'm sure other people here have run into needing this kind of thing; I wonder what people's workflows look like to keep their nixpkgs up-to-date with select PRs/branches applied?
<__monty__> Wonder whether they were worried cloud gaming would make their API obsolete?
<emily> I've considered doing declarative patching of some sort in a custom nixpkgs shim flake but didn't think of anything that would be less fuss than actually keeping a branch
<emily> drakonis: seems... surprisingly reasonable, tbh?
<joepie91> drakonis: if by "won" you mean "appropriated by a proprietary OS in an attempt to keep it from gaining marketshare", sure...
<drakonis> it is reasonable, yes.
<gchristensen> I don't patch, emily, I just use overlays to update
<emily> as far as GPU driver models go, WDDM has better isolation and defined APIs than Linux :')
<drakonis> actually microsoft is upstreaming that part into the kernel
<drakonis> its kind of impressive, really.
<drakonis> it has completely cornered the market
<emily> gchristensen: I have custom modules maintained as PRs to nixpkgs, maybe I could separate those out, but I also literally just patch stuff sometimes
<gchristensen> ah
<drakonis> everywhere except for desktops at this point
<emily> writing everything twice as both a diff to nixpkgs and a monkeypatch in my config feels like it'd be a step backwards :(
<gchristensen> sometimes I'll copy those locally and disable the module in my nixpkgs, and import my own
<drakonis> and now this pretty much means it has the desktop market to some degree
<cole-h> emily: Did you see bqv's PR flake input?
<joepie91> drakonis: Linux? no, it really doesn't
<emily> gchristensen: I also like being able to just see a PR that's relevant to me and be like "okay sure, I want that", and cherry-pick it in
<joepie91> drakonis: and it won't, if people accept a WSL setup as "Linux on the desktop"
<drakonis> the real interesting thing here is that microsoft could now theoretically run linux ports with directx 12 on the colud
<drakonis> cloud
<drakonis> for extra performance
<drakonis> this is a move to prevent vulkan from crushing them
<emily> useful for review if you can test the actual change on your actual system
<drakonis> technically speaking
<drakonis> or it is good in a different way
<emily> cole-h: oh yeah I looked at that, but it involves importing like 50 nixpkgs rather than patching one
<drakonis> because it makes it easier to get directx 12 games into the cloud
<cole-h> emily: Oh, I see.
<emily> which... would work, but it's not ideal
<emily> and would get confusing for nixos modules
<__monty__> Ah, so my hypthesis checks out.
<joepie91> drakonis: keeping in mind that the things that would actually benefit *Linux*, as opposed to benefiting Microsoft, are being kept closed-source
<joepie91> drakonis: yes, that's exactly my point, this is Microsoft trying to save their hide
<emily> with flakes, you plain can't download a .patch/.diff at all
<emily> afaik
<joepie91> it doesn't constitute a "win" for Linux, it doesn't constitute benefit to the open-source community
<joepie91> it's a power grab, plain and simple
<emily> I joked about making a web service to automatically wrap github patch files in tarballs so you could make them flake dependencies
<drakonis> it is admittedly a interesting move
<joepie91> it's what one does to make sure Linux doesn't win
<emily> honestly though, I'd be fine with just a git-based thing, let me maintain a base branch and a list of other branches to cherry-pick on top and just give me a nice sync command that rebases everything
<drakonis> it is technically a way to get more people to run code that runs on linux
<drakonis> the other thing microsoft is doing here is writing a layer to translate directx 12 to vulkan, opengl and opencl
<drakonis> so well
<drakonis> interesting play but we'll see how it works out
<drakonis> its largely targeting windows users
<joepie91> drakonis: no, it's technically a way to defend the marketshare of Windows.
<drakonis> i unfortunately know a lot of people who cannot handle linux but are fine with windows
<joepie91> "Linux" is irrelevant other than trying to take its marketshare by letting as much developed-for-Linux stuff run in the Microsoft ecosystem as possible, to create an easy unidirectional migration path
<joepie91> ie. it is easy to go from Linux to Windows but not the other way around
<joepie91> which is precisely what these projects are doing
<joepie91> a closed-source DirectX implementation isn't beneficial to Linux proper, for example - it can never become a proper part of Linux because it isn't open-source
<drakonis> the shim is part of linux proper but not the library itself
<joepie91> all it does is bridge the gap for those who want to run stuff with some sort of Linux-y layer inbetween on Microsoft stuff
<drakonis> (soon)
<joepie91> drakonis: that is irrelevant pedantry.
<drakonis> fair enough
<joepie91> "partly open-source" means proprietary.
<joepie91> it isn't open-source proper unless it is usable, in whole, under open-source conditions
<joepie91> and Microsoft's approach is just the typical approach of "open-source integrations, proprietary core" that so many tech companies try to take with their "open-source API clients" and what not
<ashkitten> i'm extremely suspicious of microsoft extending linux with windows-specific things like directx
<drakonis> interestingly enough
<ashkitten> we've already got embrace
<joepie91> it uses "open-source" merely as a way to reduce friction towards adoption of their proprietary actual product or service
<ashkitten> now it's extend time
<drakonis> hah
<__monty__> This doesn't make it possible to run DX12 on linx? Because that's what I assumed. So games would be developed for DX12 rather than Vulkan.
<drakonis> __monty__: it does, yes.
<joepie91> it has absolutely fuck all to do with supporting the open-source community in any way, shape, or form. nada, zero, zilch.
<joepie91> __monty__: yes... IF you are willing to include a proprietary DirectX core on your Linux system.
<__monty__> Which cloud gaming companies probably are.
<joepie91> yep.
<joepie91> which means games keep being targeted at Microsoft stuff.
<joepie91> which is the whole point of this exercise and all of Microsoft's previous "we <3 Linux" exercises
<joepie91> keep people in the Microsoft ecosystem.
<joepie91> tolerate that they use some non-Microsoft things, if the alternative is that they exit Microsoft's ecosystem entirely.
<__monty__> The previous WSL stuff seemed more aimed at developer retention.
<drakonis> they also have x11 passthrough with wsl2 now
<joepie91> sure, but it's the same approach, just to a different demographic
<drakonis> oopsie
<joepie91> all of it ultimately serves that central goal of keeping people in Microsoft-land
<drakonis> this is still developer retention related
<drakonis> because one of the things the blog also brings up is running cuda
<drakonis> which is notoriously garbage on windows
<drakonis> directml lol
<ashkitten> i'm absolutely fuming over this, honestly
<__monty__> Wouldn't it allow devs who are also "gamers" (and don't want to give up their games) to finally give up windows though? Running a proprietary *part* is better than a proprietary system I guess?
<drakonis> it likely would, yes.
<ashkitten> __monty__: dxvk works fine though?
<ashkitten> i don't understand how this helps
<drakonis> it would make linux a viable gaming platform as it would make it much easier to run native ports
<drakonis> it also pulls in more than just direct3d 12
<drakonis> which is what dxvk targets
<ashkitten> drakonis: dxvk targets everything from dx10 up i think
<ashkitten> either way i don't see how this helps at all actually
<ashkitten> the main issue with running windows programs on linux isn't the graphics api
<ashkitten> in fact i've never had an issue with the graphics api in any game under wine
<drakonis> oh boy
<drakonis> and it goes through mesa
<joepie91> __monty__: it would do so far better if it were actually open-source.
<joepie91> which it isn't. because Microsoft's goal here is not to help Linux users.
<drakonis> there is something to be learned here
<ashkitten> microsoft doesn't care about linux users at all, this is just to make a proprietary extension to linux specifically for windows interop
<ashkitten> i don't see why anyone should be excited about this
<drakonis> their posturing seems to point towards caring it seems
<drakonis> but then
<ashkitten> drakonis: posturing is only a facade
<drakonis> i dont know how it works internally other than them hiring a lot of people
<ashkitten> i don't know how to phrase it any more clearly than i already have
<ashkitten> this is exactly how microsoft operates
<joepie91> drakonis: if they cared, they would make the DirectX implementation open-source. they did not.
<joepie91> it's not "caring" to attempt and appropriate an ecosystem.
<ashkitten> they embrace linux, pretend to care for it, extend it with proprietary things that only benefit them, and then they kill it by getting people to move away from the original thing without their extensions
<drakonis> sucks
<eyJhb> Still get that dirty feeling when I use anything MS
<gchristensen> my position on all this is make hay on the land while we can, but don't build our house on it
<ashkitten> microsoft knows their operating system has been unusable for many things for a long time, they know linux has been growing
<ashkitten> i'm just waiting for the microsoft-canonical merger, tbh
<ashkitten> they're a real threat to open source
<gchristensen> heh
<gchristensen> canonicalL
<gchristensen> ?
<ashkitten> ?
<gchristensen> canonical?
<ashkitten> the for-profit corporation that oversees ubuntu and collects data on all their users under the guise of supporting linux
<ashkitten> i know that's a more cynical view than most people have
<gchristensen> yes, I'm asking you "they're" was "canonical" - sorry for not being clear
<gchristensen> but yeah, shady stuff there
<ashkitten> oh
<ashkitten> i mean, i consider microsoft an active threat to open source
<ashkitten> i don't trust canonical, though
<joepie91> my perception of canonical is more one of medium incompetence than one of malice, personally
<joepie91> (whereas Microsoft 100% knows what they're doing)
<ashkitten> i don't have any specific aggression against canonical
<ashkitten> microsoft is actively trying to destroy linux
<infinisil> We linux users might be the minority, but we won't give up so easily!
<samueldr> (I think Linux users are the majority in here)
<infinisil> Ah yes here definitely, in the general population not so much
<samueldr> just teasing :)
<infinisil> :P
<drakonis> that directx thing is a big oof actually
<drakonis> its really just for wsl2
<drakonis> "D3D12 wouldn’t be able to operate without a GPU specific user mode driver (UMD) provided by our GPU manufacturer partners."
<drakonis> the excitement has been dampened
<ashkitten> i still don't know why you thought it would be important for us in the first place
<ashkitten> i play games on linux all the time and don't really have an issue
<gchristensen> how do y'all pronounce "libre"?
<ashkitten> LEE-bray
<samueldr> just like I pronounce libre in french
<srhb> Like it's pronounced in french.
<samueldr> (but without that french accent)
<infinisil> leee bruhhh
<srhb> samueldr: I dare you. :-)
<samueldr> LEE brrrrrrrrr
<danderson> "open source"
* danderson ducks
<samueldr> (that's not french accent)
<srhb> Must have gotten lost in text ;)
<gchristensen> thanks everyone :)
<samueldr> I mean, there's only one objective way to say it, and it's with text
<samueldr> so get a sign with "libre" printed on it, and hold it up while saying nothing instead of libre
<srhb> It also generally attracts more attention. Bonus!
<samueldr> aaand you have something to smack open source detractors with!
<danderson> pronounce it super wrong and see if anyone feels awkward enough to point it out
<samueldr> la-hi-bur
<danderson> lie-bray
<ashkitten> la HEE
<samueldr> la-hi-bur and open source software
<danderson> la-hee-bur soft-war-ee
<danderson> there, it's official now
<sphalerite> danderson: soaft
<bqv> See I hate the idea of shell aliases normally, but xonsh is great with "abbrevs" which expand to the full form as you type, and I can totally get behind that idea
<bqv> I have some guilty pleasure aliases that I can now deprecate in favour of these
<sphalerite> bqv: you should see my guilty pleasure history entries.
<sphalerite> drakonis: what's more interesting is the d3d implementation on top of gallium (which microsoft has nothing to do with of course) that enables linux graphics drivers to implement d3d more efficiently than on top of opengl. Though I'm not sure how much of d3d and which version it actually implements.
<infinisil> bqv: So if you e.g. have an abbrev that expands `hi` to `hello`, Just having `h` in the buffer and typing `i` would change it to `hello`?
<infinisil> Or do you need to press something
<sphalerite> drakonis: err, not just linux. Mesa runs on other kernels too I believe :D
<ashkitten> sphalerite: i believe with valve's aco shader compiler, wine/dxvk can in some cases run windows games faster than windows can
<ashkitten> again, the main issue we have nowadays is not speed but compatibility with some more obscure apis
<ashkitten> i believe a longstanding one that's in the process of being solved is the media foundation api
<ashkitten> (used by some games for cutscenes and video playback)
<infinisil> Yay, I rated all my songs, finally, after all these years
<infinisil> That's almost 3000 songs
<cole-h> How many 1* do you have?
<samueldr> next step infinisil https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDD-kuXWCQo
<drakonis> sphalerite: there are some interesting things, but the current implementation explicitly targets wsl's use case of gpu passthrough
<infinisil> cole-h: How many with the lowest rating?
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<cole-h> Yeah
<infinisil> Ah one star
<infinisil> I'm using 1-10 points, let's see how many have 1
<cole-h> infinisil: btw, abbrevs expand on space or enter (at least in fish)
<infinisil> samueldr: Hehe nice. Actually when I was using macOS still, I made a program to annotate songs with BPM information automatically
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<samueldr> that's something he touches on as he did that beforehand!
<infinisil> cole-h: 89 songs have 1 star :)
<infinisil> I should make a quick graph with the distribution
<cole-h> infinisil: Does any specific artist/album have the majority?
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<infinisil> The majority of worst ratings?
<infinisil> Not really, rather random collection of songs there
<bqv> infinisil: yep!
<cole-h> And what about the highest-rated songs -- is there a random collection there as well, or do you appear to favor an artist/album more than others
<infinisil> Nope, also pretty random there :)
<infinisil> 43 songs have 10 stars
<infinisil> Oh also, I have a category of intentionally unrated songs I call "nope", because it's just songs I don't even want to listen to anymore
<cole-h> lol
<infinisil> 718 songs are noped, so I guess I didn't rate 3000, but only like 2300
<infinisil> These are mostly things I inherited from my dad's collection
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<__monty__> Dad, 70% of your music is terrible.
<sphalerite> joepie91: what do you think about valve's involvement in linux?
<infinisil> __monty__: If I mentioned what artists I noped, I bet many here would get a little irritated hah
<infinisil> A lot of classics
<sphalerite> infinisil: "nope" counts as a rating, so 3000.
<sphalerite> :D
<__monty__> Weird to have a 12 level grading system though.
<joepie91> sphalerite: so far their incentives have roughly aligned with those of the broader open-source community; but that will probably not forever remain the case, especially considering that Steam also doesn't mind a bit of lock-in into their platform
<joepie91> that having been said, from a business perspective they are much less of a threat than Microsoft, because Linux to them is a tool, not a competitor
<infinisil> sphalerite: True!
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<joepie91> (mainly, a way for them to ensure that they have a way to continue distributing games without being screwed over by an OS vendor like Microsoft)
<joepie91> (who might launch a competing store or even block Valve out)
<joepie91> buuuuuut they are still a business and they are definitely making business decisions, community comes second
<infinisil> cole-h: Here's the distribution of ratings: https://paste.infinisil.com/XZYitNdFlg.png
<cole-h> So you feel "meh" about most of your songs :P
<sphalerite> joepie91: true
<sphalerite> infinisil: now train a neural network on your data so that you can have it listen to all the songs in the world and pick out the ones you'll like!
<infinisil> cole-h: The rating wouldn't be that useful if I rated all songs high!
<joepie91> that having been said; they made the dxvk/proton stack open-source, and they didn't have to to meet their business goals, so while I doubt that they would ever take a decision for the benefit of the community when it disaligns with their business goals, at least when it doesn't conflict they seem willing to do the right thing, so that is something
<cole-h> sphalerite: lol
<cole-h> infinisil: :D
<infinisil> I intentionally made an effort to really think about how the songs make me feel, whether I enjoy them. *Not* whether they're good songs
<sphalerite> joepie91: well, that could be seen as just a business move to cultivate benevolence from the community I guess? :p
<joepie91> sphalerite: possibly, but I don't think Valve really needs it
<joepie91> they already have an (IMO unjustifiably) good rep
<joepie91> so my bets are on a "management didn't care so sure, why not open-source it" situation rather than a "marketing ploy to win over the community" situation
<joepie91> but I don't have special insight into Valve, so I can't say for certain of course :)
<sphalerite> joepie91: true
<infinisil> cole-h: Do you also have a rated music library perhaps?
<cole-h> infinisil: Not yet. Maybe I'll embark upon that journey soon.
<cole-h> Still messing with my NixOS setup, though, so it might be a little bit...
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* joepie91 uploaded an image: Selection_999(097).png (28KB) < https://pixie.town/_matrix/media/r0/download/pixie.town/vajRjZjceINoeznAfHDhHfzv >
<joepie91> nice.
<eyJhb> joepie91: grafana?
<joepie91> eyJhb: no, qBittorrent :P
<cole-h> infinisil: An overview: most of my higher-rated songs would be jazz, the middle-tier would consist of electronic + pop-y songs, and I don't know what my bottom crust would look like. Really, it just comes down to my mood most days.
<eyJhb> Close enough I guess
<sphalerite> I wonder if rating information could also be deduced from skip events when playing everything on shuffle :^)
<infinisil> sphalerite: There is a beets plugin that does that
<MichaelRaskin> joepie91: I guess re: community they might want to have the goodwill of people who will report bugs to developers if their Windows-only games on Steam do not run on Proton, and people who report bugs as a hobby might appreciate Proton being open and thus use it a bit more
<cole-h> While I'm setting up NixOS, I've only got 1 album playing on repeat :P
<eyJhb> Also the discussion about MS and Linux/Opensource, I thinkt that sadly a lot a developers are happy at MS about the opensource initiative, but uppermanagement will push forward the agenda
<infinisil> But since I continuously play my music in a radio-like fashion, that won't be very useful
<eyJhb> cole-h: which one?
<eyJhb> infinisil: always the publci stream <3
<joepie91> MichaelRaskin: dunno, I would expect their SteamOS ventures to result in more reports of that, especially since bugs can be reported automatically, especially with the degree of integration Steam has in games
<eyJhb> cole-h: that is a sure way to start hating it at some point :p
<cole-h> eyJhb: I've been listening to this album for the past ~2 years -- I don't think I'll get tired of it anytime soon, tbh.
<MichaelRaskin> Well, using the vocal minority to create human bugreport pressure while maintaining plausible deniability…
<adisbladis> I belive Microsoft is a changed company when both Windows and Office are opened up
<bqv> Wow, xonsh's shell history has a nontrivial garbage collector…
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<infinisil> Aw yeah, now I can run commands like `beet play rating:7.. added:-6m..`, which plays me all decent and recent songs
<adisbladis> bqv: I just thought of something I need to show you re xonsh
<infinisil> (yes I'm using beet to manage my music library)
<adisbladis> bqv: ^
<adisbladis> from nixpkgs.numpy import numpy as np
<eyJhb> adisbladis: tbh. I just want a little office support on Linux at times
<eyJhb> Forced 2FA Office365 is no fun
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<bqv> adisbladis: way ahead of you :p
<bqv> I did that this morning
<bqv> Spotted you in some github comments too
<bqv> I should probably push my current config, but my branches are a mess and my head is detached
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<eyJhb> adisbladis: didn't know that Libreoffice has a ribbon like interface now
<eyJhb> However very very messy
<bqv> Haven't actually tried using it yet though
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<adisbladis> I "love" python... In a Nix build a wheel is built by pip/setuptools, but the same wheel cannot be installed by pip/setuptools :/
<adisbladis> Because of how wheel compatibility is checked
<adisbladis> "Fantastic"
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<pie_> adisbladis is this that weird platform string thing
<pie_> all i remember is i always have issues googling about problems related to that because we are nixos and noone else does our weird crap
<pie_> xD
<adisbladis> pie_: Which weird platform string thing? ;)
<pie_> cant rememebr lol
<adisbladis> There are more than one thing that comes to mind
<pie_> oh n
<pie_> o :P
<adisbladis> I guess you're talking about pep508 ?
<adisbladis> In this case it's not, it's some weirdness in pip
<adisbladis> I'm still amazed it can produce a wheel it cannot install itself
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<pie_> i dont find that surprising...
<adisbladis> I have an idea... What if I just patched out the check completely
<adisbladis> It's stupid anyway... All the inputs are under my control
<pie_> *flexes*
<adisbladis> <3 pie_
<{^_^}> pie_'s karma got increased to 11
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<abathur> python packaging rarely fails to frustrate me
<abathur> had me banging my head against the wall last week even, though in python's defense this is a 2.7 thing
<infinisil> Is there any big ecosystem that doesn't have awful packaging?
<joepie91> JS IMO, aside from the universal "cannot cleanly represent dependencies outside of the own ecosystem" problem
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<joepie91> (which is a real problem, but not really something that can be fixed without distro cooperation unfortunately)
<adisbladis> Actually I agree
<infinisil> It could be fixed if Nix was the standard for everything :P
<adisbladis> While NPM & Yarn & friends aren't great the underlying packaging is pretty alright
<joepie91> infinisil: thus why I'm here :P
<joepie91> (or well, part of why I'm here)
<infinisil> Imagine Nix having taken over the world in ten years. `nix-build` has become the standard for building any project, all package managers have great integration with it, etc.
<infinisil> All CI's require Nix builds to work
<cole-h> Stop, I can only get so erect.
<infinisil> xD
<infinisil> "Works on my machine" has been eradicated, as everything is run with pure evaluation, sandbox enabled, and properly wrapped outputs
<infinisil> No project would get "I can't compile this on <distro> I get"
<infinisil> That would be wonderful
* colemickens tosses in a grenade-shaped object with a sticker labeled "docker" on it, laughs, runs away
<armin> evil
<cole-h> I'm happy to report that, after switching to NixOS, I no longer experience those freezes in Emacs that ended with a segfault. I get the freezes still, but not the segfaults :D
<armin> lmao
<adisbladis> colemickens: Oh, we support that too ^_^
<armin> fun chat tonight, i had to laugh hard reading through the backlog ;)
<adisbladis> In this nice hypothetical future it's a target
<infinisil> adisbladis: I think using something like docker purely as a way to run linux binaries on any platform might be nice
<infinisil> I guess then it's just a VM
<infinisil> Though, I guess qemu can be used for that too right?
<armin> in a way
<armin> your description is a bit blurry
<armin> do you want to share the kernel with the host OS or not?
<infinisil> Not very experienced with VM's I am
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<armin> i honestly don't care much about what you use to run my code as long as you keep it running lol
<armin> if you want to wrap it within 5 layers of complexity go ahead
<armin> i mean docker is a very very trivial thing under the roof
<adisbladis> infinisil: OCI is kinda nice in this regard
<armin> the magic happens on the layer on top of that, the whole networking in docker is awkward
<adisbladis> Just plug a container runtime and go on your way
<infinisil> adisbladis: Oh yeah that sounds pretty nice
<armin> the whole fact that docker does things to your iptables can be insanely time consuming. if you don't exactly know what's happening there have fun spending hours of debugging.
<adisbladis> Right, I have some WIP work for Kata containers somewhere, which is for Qemu
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<armin> well there still is lxc.
<armin> anyways, no matter if you choose a container runtime or some hypervisor, make sure you know what the differences are.
<adisbladis> armin: Have you tried Podman?
<armin> adisbladis: yes.
<cole-h> Well, here goes nothing. Testing VFIO. See y'all on the other side (hopefully).
<armin> adisbladis: i heard great things about it so far, but i personally don't have any strong opinion about it (yet).
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<cole-h> OK I'm back already. What's the syntax of buildEnv? `pkgs.buildEnv { path = with pkgs [ ... ]; }`?
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<gchristensen> with pkgs; [ ... ];
<cole-h> It's `paths = with pkgs; [ ... ];`, not `path = ...`, OK.
<cole-h> OK, attempt #2.
<cole-h> Another failure. PATH is too long :( Time to substituteAll in the scripts...
<armin> for whatever reason i managed to exceed 2000 LOCs today in bash
<gchristensen> path = [ ... ]; works fine too, but `with` is always `with attrset; scope where the things inside attrset are in scope;`
<armin> consider me insane
* infinisil considers armin insane
* gchristensen too
<gchristensen> 50 loc and like 3 if's is my limit for "is this a good idea?"
<samueldr> I hope it's 2000 with code generation
<armin> for some ugly reasons i managed to become real good at bash, but people usually consider me arcane
<gchristensen> armin: I mean, me too, but ... :P
<adisbladis> armin: Oh no
<armin> gchristensen: i don't know, it's still the thing i use to manifest ideas
<gchristensen> me too, 100%
<gchristensen> and I'm annoyed the entire time I'm porting it to python/rust/whatever
<infinisil> The better I get at bash, the less I want to use it
<armin> i'm happy rewriting all that in go, python, tcl, haskell, whatever your fancy later on, but bash is the very first thing i do
<gchristensen> same
<gchristensen> maybe I should learn go ...
<armin> eww, don't
<armin> terrible language, i wrote a prompt builder for zsh in it
<abathur> my bar for bash-crazy was really pushed out there by the ble.sh guy
<gchristensen> hehe
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<gchristensen> abathur: yeah well .... show armin resholved.
<armin> it works amazingly great, really, but no, don't consider this to solve all the problems in your life, no
<armin> you have to have serious mental problems to write something like this, but here i am
<abathur> I might be crazy, but I think I saw someone say ble.sh was ~30k lines of bash
<gchristensen> abathur: noooo...
<armin> 30k is unmaintainable. i stop understanding shit at around 5k or so.
<adisbladis> gchristensen: Go is terrible for stuff you'd consider using python/bash for
<samueldr> I think the solution is truly $pet_solution
<armin> adisbladis: go is terrible for other things as well but i love it
<gchristensen> adisbladis: yeah, oh well :) (let's not dog on go here)
<armin> i also love tcl a lot, and boy is that a broken language
<adisbladis> I love Go for some things
<adisbladis> Their crypto libs are second to none
<abathur> my "persistence" script which handles my bootstrapping/backup/etc. is a little over 2k lines
<gchristensen> armin: expect is my love language
<adisbladis> But it lacks the expressiveness associated with shell scripts and dynamic languages
<abathur> though I guess there are also several hundred lines of comments in there
<armin> expect is great :D
<armin> i've actually written graphical applications in tcl/tk
<armin> man don't do that
<armin> just don't :D
<armin> oh and haskell can be mind squashing, too
<abathur> *though, it's also *only* as short as 2.3k lines because it's also leaning on a few other shell libraries for abstractions to make things a little more modular
<armin> also the funny part about c is when you think you have FINALLY understood c. that's where the nightmares begin.
<adisbladis> armin: I have some multi thousand line nix projects
<armin> adisbladis: the fuck?
<abathur> hehe
<armin> adisbladis: you be kidding right
<adisbladis> No, not kidding :)
<elvishjerricco> My NixOS config alone is 3000 lines
<armin> elvishjerricco: WHAT
<elvishjerricco> I do... a lot of weird stuff with NixOS :P
<armin> wow!!!
<elvishjerricco> Because NixOS actually makes them possible lol
<abathur> I'm not sure how to unpack the total length of mine off the top of my head since I broke it all into pieces
<adisbladis> https://github.com/nix-community/poetry2nix for one has 3k locs
<armin> i could easily write that in bash in 1-2 days, but nix? wow.
<cole-h> OK, attempt #3 at booting my VFIO VM...
<lovesegfault> Trying the iosevka font instead of hack
<lovesegfault> it's definitely narrow
<armin> i'm very questionable when it comes to bash. i think i've written well over 20 projects where people did not understand why i chose bash.
<MichaelRaskin> VFIO — Intel GPU?
<lovesegfault> Not sure whether I like this narrowness or not
<armin> you can really do MAD things in bash
<elvishjerricco> and that's why you shouldn't use bash :P
<lovesegfault> Bash is God's language
<MichaelRaskin> Actually bash allows to do _some_ of them cleanly
<abathur> I can't claim writing bash doesn't piss me off frequently, but it seems like a lot of the yaks I find a little cute live in bashland
<armin> i think i'm a pretty good example what happens when you do too much bash
<MichaelRaskin> You should not do the others
<elvishjerricco> I think bash has bewildered me more times than any other language
<armin> i seriously love bash
<abathur> gchristensen: speaking of resholved; once it gets merged I can PR that bash event/promise library :]
<gchristensen> :D
<elvishjerricco> I think that's the first time I've seen someone say that :P
<MichaelRaskin> Love is great
<MichaelRaskin> Especially towards Bash
<MichaelRaskin> People fail to understand the power of bash
<gchristensen> ^
<abathur> I'm both afraid and really want to show someone the ~kwargs implementation I have in bash
<gchristensen> abathur: O . O
<MichaelRaskin> Well, you should not use the power of Bash, you should use POSIX Shell
<MichaelRaskin> Which Bash implements pretty fine
<samueldr> abathur: please share
<armin> MichaelRaskin: are you planning to run your code on some white plastic box router in your basement?
<armin> MichaelRaskin: most computers nowadays have a fully functioning bash interpreter, no need to stick with sh
<ashkitten> my nixos configs are 1200 loc
<armin> wow
<gchristensen> nixos configs are messy, andwill always be messy, because they are solving a messy problem
<gchristensen> trying to make them sparkling clean is counter-productive imo
<abathur> samueldr: I think it starts about here https://github.com/abathur/shell-hag/blob/master/hag.bash#L190
<armin> the one on my desktop computer is 170 lines
parsley936 has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<MichaelRaskin> gchristensen: half of the time the correct solution would be to notice that is not the problem that should be solved, though
<samueldr> find . -name '*.nix' -exec 'cat' '{}' ';' | wc -l -> 5798
<gchristensen> :)
<samueldr> oh, should have been find /etc/nixos
<gchristensen> MichaelRaskin: the ol' nose + handlebar problem
<ashkitten> armin: my nixos configs cover my desktop, server, and laptop, and cover dotfiles in home-manager
<infinisil> samueldr: Btw tokei is a nice tool for counting locs
<ashkitten> infinisil: i always forget the name of tokei when i go to use it
<samueldr> yeah, but I guess the next time I'll need a LOC count I'll not remember that either :)
<infinisil> Shows breadown per-language and split into code/comments/empties
<armin> ashkitten: running that command in my ~/git/nixos-config-computername directory reveals 234
<infinisil> Hehe, also took me a while to remember its name
<samueldr> nix: 3736 code lines, 1252 comments, 809 blanks
<lovesegfault> gchristensen: my NixOS config is sparkling clean
<gchristensen> nice
<ashkitten> infinisil: i always remember that i dropped cloc for something, and don't remember what it is
<lovesegfault> So clean no human can understand it anymore
<gchristensen> nice.
<armin> at some point in my life i started to realize that complexity is the enemy
<samueldr> alias cloc="echo use tokei you dummy" # may help
<ashkitten> ✨ samueldr
<{^_^}> samueldr's karma got increased to 231
<infinisil> Or `alias cloc=tokei` because might as well
<abathur> samueldr: they use `local | xargs printf "%s\n"` on one side, and then something like `IFS=$'\n'; local $1 $(event emit __hag_pre_invocation_$2_vars); unset IFS` on the other side
<armin> don't unset IFS
<infinisil> Maybe CLI's with the same functionality should have the same command name
<armin> be careful with that :)
<samueldr> infinisil: in my opinion, it's better to make you stop and consider what you're really using, unless it's a drop-in compatible replacemet
<samueldr> alias emacs=vim # perfect
<armin> samueldr++
<{^_^}> samueldr's karma got increased to 232