gchristensen changed the topic of #nixos-chat to: NixOS but much less topical || https://logs.nix.samueldr.com/nixos-chat
<infinisil> I mean $EDITOR is pretty much that!
<samueldr> heh
<infinisil> Since with Nix(OS) you usually have your scripts wrapped with explicitly declared dependencies, I don't think it would be a big problem for all CLI's with same functionality have the same command name
<ashkitten> i have ls aliased to exa but that's because i don't want to train myself to type exa when i need ls
<ashkitten> and ls is a very common command, anyway
<infinisil> ashkitten: Yeah same
<armin> i wouldn't do that as i simply sometimes rely on adapting ls arguments to my needs
<JJJollyjim> Exa is really nice
<samueldr> alias firefox=iexplore.exe
<armin> exa is great yea, but stop fucking with my ls
<JJJollyjim> nuuu
<ashkitten> armin: exa takes mostly the same arguments as ls, i think
<armin> ashkitten: oh totally not, no
<JJJollyjim> Sorting is definitely different
<JJJollyjim> (I prefer exa's but had to relearn)
<ashkitten> i am always sad when i'm on a foreign machine and ls -T doesn't work because it's not exa ;-;
<infinisil> ashkitten: My only problem with this ls alias is that exa doesn't list files incrementally. So doing an exa in e.g. /nix/store takes quite a while until it actually outputs something
<ashkitten> ah
<gchristensen> ls does?
<JJJollyjim> Yep
<JJJollyjim> I think exa might sort by default?
<gchristensen> nice
<infinisil> JJJollyjim: Oh yeah that might be it
<armin> exa is pretty great and whatnot but what about --group-directories-first, -F, etc? :D
<armin> don't tell anyone i'm the guy who installs coreutils on macos just to have gls with --group-directories-first kek
<gchristensen> heh
<armin> and yeah, exa is just ONE letter more to type than ls
<armin> quite cool :D
<armin> i'm actually just listening to a minidisc i recorded over headphones, playing some music by an artist called SUBJEX
<armin> wow is that good music
<ashkitten> armin: exa has -F?
<armin> ashkitten: but does it have --group-directories-first?
<ashkitten> yes
<armin> oh, they added that?
<ashkitten> apparently
<armin> wasn't so last time i tried!
<ashkitten> are you happy now? c:
<armin> yes! :D
<ashkitten> :D
<ashkitten> armin++
<{^_^}> armin's karma got increased to 1
<abathur> should write a bash library that rotates your PATH every time you run a command
<armin> abathur: oh THAT'S a good one
<ashkitten> abathur--
<ashkitten> cursed!
<gchristensen> maximize pain?
<armin> hahaha :)
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<ashkitten> especially on nixos where our PATH is long
<armin> wow, it actually does "exa --group-directories-first -F" these days?
<armin> not bad.
<samueldr> simple, make a symlink tree first and have a single-dir PATH
<armin> still, if you like IDM, you'll *LOVE* subjex
<armin> what a great artist
<gchristensen> one day I'd like to revisit my patch to glibc which prevents exec() from working unless it the thing it is exec'ing is in its nix closure
<abathur> heh heh
<armin> last year, i started to collect vintage media, including vinyl, minidiscs, and tapes. people ask me why and i fail to find an explanation.
<MichaelRaskin> gchristensen: riiiiight, let's make glibc depend on Nix
<abathur> (because you like to write things in bash)
<armin> RUDE!
<armin> :DF
<abathur> :p
<samueldr> armin: collecting the media or collecting the thing on the media?
<gchristensen> MichaelRaskin: nah no such dependency
<abathur> I can't even explain how excited I got at some of the little tiny details in bash 5
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<armin> samueldr: well both, i was listening to mp3 exclusively for almost a decade or so, i wanted something physical i can really collect, put on my wall, hold in my hands.
<samueldr> right, but you're not looking for different media types per se, but mostly for the music in a tangible form?
<samueldr> so, no need to stretch and get a DCC (digital compact cassette) or anything esotheric à la techmoan
<armin> samueldr: i don't know, i have 8 tapedecks, 3 vinyl players, but on the other hand i'm an electronic music artist who uh makes music i guess?
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<samueldr> techmoan (a youtuber) has a knack for getting the different media formats, and presenting them
<armin> samueldr: i also have 17 mechanical keyboards
<armin> yeah i love techmoan!
<samueldr> (context for those who don't love techmoan yet https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC5I2hjZYiW9gZPVkvzM8_Cw )
<armin> samueldr: so yeah in total i have over 20 computer keyboards
<armin> samueldr: that doesn't make sense, no
<gchristensen> yikies
* gchristensen can't talk, having 3 kinesises
<abathur> my desktop's nonmechanical logitech from ~2009 with flaking arrow keys would probably make you sad
<armin> eww :(
<armin> it would yea
<abathur> but I can think of at least 3 other people I know with multiple multi-hundred-dollar mechanical keyboards, so I can't pretend it's surprising
<armin> my most expensive build is about 700 i guess?
<armin> that's just crazy, don't do that
<samueldr> to be fair, I haven't tried a fully mechanical keyboard, but I found that the more slim-line keyboards with chiclet keys more comfortable to type on
<samueldr> so K360 from logitech it is, for me
<armin> samueldr: yeah you didn't type on a good mechanical keyboard then yet
<samueldr> got, in total, 5 of them for dirt cheap refurbed from logitech
<abathur> samueldr: yeah, similar, I don't like the height of the mechanicals I've used
<samueldr> yeah, every mechanical keyboard I've seen the height of the whole thing makes me uncomfortable
<armin> well there are many very different switches with different heights and whatnot
<samueldr> but with a couple of those keyboards ready to replace a failing one, in the future, I don't think I'll be shopping :)
<abathur> samueldr: honestly even the height of my logitech is a little offputting now after having ~lived on macbooks for nearly 7 years
<samueldr> I'm probably good for 15-20 years with those :|
<samueldr> minimum
<samueldr> they are replacing another logitech model that uses sunlight to recharge its internal battery, but there's not enough sunlight here during winter for its too-small internal battery to recharge :(
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<abathur> oh, yeah, wired only
<abathur> ok with wireless-with-usb-charging as long as they can be used while charging I guess
<samueldr> the one I'm using uses eneloop rechargeable cells... which I'm not sure I've recharged yet since getting the keyboard
<samueldr> which concerns me considering I think it was quoted 6 months on batteries
<samueldr> I might also be misremembering
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<armin> do yourself a favour and get a keychron k2 at least, but hey, i'm biased about keyboards :D
<samueldr> I need a numpad
<armin> gchristensen: kinesis advantage?
<armin> samueldr: you don't.
<samueldr> I do
<armin> samueldr: imagine you would have all those keys DIRECTLY under your right hand, without even having to move your right hand, just by pressing a button with your left thumb, wouldn't that be superior?
<samueldr> no because it requires coordination between my hands, which I don't have
<armin> samueldr: it just requires your hands to remain where ther are if you type with 10 fingers
<abathur> going to go buy a nice mechanical keyboard and post a mod video on youtube where I dampened all of the switches
<armin> lol
<abathur> farm those downvotes
<armin> the first 2 days are hell and then you realize how weird your thinking of typing in general was
<armin> then you edit your custom keymap.c and suddenly you're faster than on a normal full size
<abathur> I'll grant that, shrinking things can be good
<abathur> though I'll also say that applies to travel
<abathur> I'm a little faster and happier on the macbook with the butterfly switches and negligible key travel
<armin> well the biggest keyboards i use these days are 75%s
<armin> i can only to the highest recommend getting blank keycaps
<armin> really, it's 2 days of pain and you'll learn how to type
<abathur> and honestly the keys are big, but I guess with a mass-market laptop there's only so small the keys can git
<armin> i did that when i lost my job back in 2004 or something
<armin> downloaded the first thing i found with "ms dos typing trainer" and emulated that in doxbox until i completed the endgame level
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<armin> i think that one was considered "shareware" even :D
<abathur> that seems pretty true; MUDding taught me not to need to look much, unless it's a dark keyboard with dark keys in a dark room and no backlight or something
<armin> MUD?
<samueldr> I wouldn't mind blank keycaps; especially since I buy US layout keyboards, while typing on another layout
<abathur> text-based predecessors to MMOs
<abathur> well
<samueldr> so only letters/numbers are the same, most symbols and shift/altgr are different
<abathur> text-based MMOs
<abathur> :)
<armin> ok :)
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<samueldr> I'm always a bit nostalgic about a MUD I frequented a couple times
<samueldr> can't remember the exact name, and can't find traces of it existing online
<samueldr> it was "scripter's MUD" or something along the line
<abathur> I technically admin one, though my current years-long yak-shave has me neglecting that
<samueldr> even only knowing the MUD engine it was using would be fun
<abathur> hmm
<abathur> guess @ year?
<samueldr> ~2005 I would guess
<samueldr> ±2 years
<abathur> did it involve eating/drinking?
<armin> though shalt not shave the yak, for circumventing infinite recursion, avoid thee at its end
<samueldr> I don't remember, the MUD itself was open-ended, more like it was 2nd life in a MUD form than a proper MMO
<samueldr> people were expected to script
<abathur> yeah, interesting
<abathur> definitely haven't played it
<samueldr> I remember the community being rather small, but really friendly
<abathur> there are some general MUD communities around still, someone might might remember if you asked around
<abathur> tends to be a small-ish world
<abathur> these days at least
<armin> it's crazy how i got into minidiscs and suddenly realized there's literally noone around me who uses that
<armin> like, it's impossible to find someone who would be crazy enough to buy a deck
<samueldr> you can go less niche, still using an iPod from before iOS, and an pretty much alone
<samueldr> modded to solid state storage
<armin> that thhing can't even record arbitrary things, nor can i easily tag songs when lying on the bed
<samueldr> I think the MUD might have been a MOO
<armin> this minidisc deck here i got with >100 MDs for 70 bucks or so
<samueldr> (reading on wikipedia)
<armin> it's great, there's no better way to rip spotify
<armin> i literally do that all the time
<armin> nevertheless, i understand everyone who refuses to get into that weird niche hobby, yea
<abathur> niche hobbies are good
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<abathur> I'm guessing most people with a niche hobby haven't felt the need to get extremely into baking right now
<abathur> which isn't to say baking isn't a fine hobby in its own right, but it is to say I think a lot of people taking it up probably could have benefitted from having a niche hobby for many years
<gchristensen> as a long-time baker, I welcome all the new bakers in to the fold
<gchristensen> I hope they keep it up :) it is fun to learn how incredible yeast is
<abathur> I hope a lot of them stick with it, too
<abathur> or stick with something
<gchristensen> +
<gchristensen> 1
<abathur> I think most people need a hobby
<gchristensen> +2
<gchristensen> ideally away from the computer :x
<abathur> unfortunately, my damn hobby is yak-shaving :)
<abathur> upside, I haven't had to wonder what to do next for 8 years or so running
<armin> well baking is quite cool :D
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<andi-> well armin you also (used to?) have that hobby and systemd ;-)
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<andi-> s/and/with/
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<cole-h_> Good news: I got VFIO working!!! :D Next, I need to deal with getting my torrent software setup.
<colemickens> i uh, hm https://lobste.rs/
<colemickens> We haven't been able to find yeast for ... 9 weeks now?
<colemickens> granted we only look when we make our every-other-week or i-need-this-thing-urgently runs, but still, a bit unnerving
<hexa-> >systemctl start cron
<hexa-> yikes
<bqv> Lol
<colemickens> oh, they did it https://github.com/microsoft/winget-cli
<colemickens> also, I am baffled at what people think they're donating to for this touchpad thing that keeps popping up on HN.
<gchristensen> hexa-: I don't envy the world seeing your sysadmin'ing :P
<hexa-> gchristensen: pretty sure that is a direct quote from lobste.rs :P
<JJJollyjim> colemickens I have no idea either but fuck I want my trackpad to work better
<JJJollyjim> Please give me a black hole I can throw money into so I can just have OSX trackpad drivers
<colemickens> What does that mean?
<colemickens> Like, what does that actually mean?
<hexa-> JJJollyjim: pretty sure you can drop your money here https://github.com/gitclear/libinput
<colemickens> based on what?
<colemickens> they don't have a dev picked out.
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<hexa-> idk
<colemickens> someone threw up a blog post, didn't discuss any attempts at interacting with the existing OSS community (that is friendly, from my own experiences)
<colemickens> idk, maybe I'm missing context.
<JJJollyjim> yeah I don't know the specifics
<gchristensen> hexa-: oh it is I saw it too :P
<hexa-> don't you ever accuse me of starting crond :P
<gchristensen> :D
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<gchristensen> c'mon aarch64 + openssl ....
<gchristensen> "make[1]: warning: jobserver unavailable: using -j1. Add '+' to parent make rule." noooo
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<emily> I'm a little confused by the x11Support parameter in pkgs/development/libraries/gtk/3.x.nix
<emily> it appears to be completely unused?
<emily> colemickens: right? there's several years of blog posts and the consistent theme is mostly shilling the person's own random companies
<emily> the weird guilting tone of the latest blog post complaining about everyone not having immediately signed up as a regular github sponsor when there's 0 lines of code and no developer is really weird too
<emily> the whole thing strikes me as very, um, "project manager"... but I guess that's unfair to good project managers :p
<colemickens> also libinput supports multitouch, is the budget also including touching KDE? GNOME? etC? to flesh out MT support? Does it include an xdg spec for that? Is it just libinput? Did they reach out to Hugh or anyone at all?
<emily> I'm just confused by all the HN comments excited that someone is finally Doing Something About The Problem like asking for money and hoping a developer will show up to figure out all the details is doing something
<emily> but then I guess that is literally what the HN startup crowd count as Doing Something in general
<colemickens> ahhhh I feel crazy, I have to stop reading it.
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<colemickens> I'd pay good money to see those results if everyone were put on libinput, and a compositor that actually allowed it to be configured, and `gebaar-libinput` with a default config that matched their DE. None of which involves any actual work done to libinput.
<colemickens> it is
<colemickens> it's just some use case for their product
<colemickens> I really can't with this.
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<eyJhb> colemickens: wish I could give some feedback, but my touchpad is just disabled. The Linux touhpads are generally not good
<colemickens> politely, i don't know what anyone is meant to do with that information
<colemickens> it's hard to know when people say that what they've tried and how seriously to take such blanket statements
<colemickens> especially when I have apparently very different experiences on a variety of touchpads over the years with libinput (though I did have to file a bug once due to a regression when some sensitivity support was added)
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<eyJhb> I haven't done it so much since my Acer Aspire 3820TG, because.. Leveno and the trackball thing
<eyJhb> But I would assume you are correct. When some say try, it is out-of-the box for 30 minuets
<bqv> The worst part about using xonsh is just that its so little used that there's no precedent for anything
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<bqv> I've got an issue where I can't seem to get powerline to work in nested xonshes. Which is fine cause I don't really like powerline, but it has got a convenient fully featured prompt
<bqv> No idea why it could be bar environment variables leaking through or prompt_toolkit bugging out
<JJJollyjim> colemickens: personally, i feel like trackpad interaction is a daunting subject i know little about, all i know is that i've had better experiences on osx, even with the same hardware.
<JJJollyjim> It would be inappropriate to file a bug report on libinput saying "make it feel better" or "make it more like apple"
<JJJollyjim> But the UX research to *figure out* what people don't like is valuable in itself
<JJJollyjim> (again, idk the specifics of this HN thing, just trying to provide context for why people might be so hungry for improvement)
<Irenes[m]> okay so
<Irenes[m]> there is a package, oneko, which is a piece of software that has not been modified in 20 years
<Irenes[m]> I believe that it is an essential feature of any modern operating system, so I took the liberty of updating it
<Irenes[m]> then I realized that the original has some dubious intellectual property of the kind that nobody had to worry about in the 90s
<Irenes[m]> I don't want to get it removed from nixpkgs but I kind of also don't want to host my own repo on github and call attention to it
<Irenes[m]> I also kind of want to submit a pull request which just applies my changes as a patch
<Irenes[m]> thoughts?
<eyJhb> What C/IP is it?
<sphalerite> Irenes[m]: my first response would be "we're not debian". Unless someone actively pushes to remove it, it won't get removed.
<Irenes[m]> it's somebody's pixel art of two anime characters
<Irenes[m]> unfortunately the US licensee of the anime in question is really vigilant about DMCA requests
<Irenes[m]> even to this day
<Irenes[m]> my practical question for nixpkgs would be whether a PR that applies a patch would be likely to be accepted
<sphalerite> Irenes[m]: in that case, I'd recommend adding unfree to its licence list
<Irenes[m]> ah, sure
<sphalerite> Irenes[m]: that way it won't be built by hydra and we won't be redistributing the dubious content.
<Irenes[m]> nice :)
<Irenes[m]> and I can confirm that my patch won't have to touch any of the files that have the dubious parts
<sphalerite> Old versions will still contain it, but hey, maybe that'll give the nixos foundation its first experience with a DMCA request. Ha.
<Irenes[m]> lol
<Irenes[m]> all right, if nobody sees an obvious reason that a PR like that wouldn't be accepted, I'll go ahead and put it together
<eyJhb> Guessing the pixel art is actually in the binary, and not just the source as comments?
<sphalerite> lol " Last modified: Fri Jul 2 08:08:07 JST 1999 " "still under construction..."
<Irenes[m]> well, it's an .xbm, which if you don't know the file format, is C source code containing an image as an array constant lol
<sphalerite> eyJhb: irrelevant, since the cache will also contain the source tarball
<Irenes[m]> so it's in both the source and the binary, but not one of the source files I modified
<Irenes[m]> sphalerite: yeah lol
<Irenes[m]> alternatively I could host my cleaned-up repo on GitHub
<Irenes[m]> I transcoded a bunch of files from ISO-2022-JP to UTF-8 so I could run them through Google Translate to look for the copyright notice (it's public domain, except for the parts that aren't)
<sphalerite> lol
<Irenes[m]> yeah I was pretty amused
<Irenes[m]> I also converted tabs to spaces
<sphalerite> blasphemy!
<Irenes[m]> so there is "real value" to hosting an updated copy lol
<Irenes[m]> but they weren't even consistent! one of the authors before me had mixed spaces in with them lol
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<Irenes[m]> actually changing the license to unfree makes sense from a nixpkgs standpoint
<sphalerite> tabs for indentation and spaces for alignment are an acceptable way of mixing tabs and spaces.
<Irenes[m]> I'm going to host it on GitHub and see what happens
<sphalerite> :p
<Irenes[m]> and send a PR to change the upstream
<Irenes[m]> lol yes but that wasn't what happened
<Irenes[m]> I got a real close look at it since I was rebasing my substantive changes against the original to make a minimal patch
<sphalerite> tab then space then tab, on the other hand, is completely unacceptable.
<Irenes[m]> I seem to be the closest thing this orphaned digital kitty has to a maintainer, so I made the call that spaces are the future
<JJJollyjim> sphalerite: find some old perl code edited by emacs users :P
<eyJhb> sphalerite: I had a professor who used all the coding styles.
<sphalerite> eyJhb: in the same file, right?
<eyJhb> sphalerite: Yes. If he could do it on the same line, I am sure he would have done so
<eyJhb> Like all these mixed together
<eyJhb> However, there is missing one that really makes it OK to kill someone
<sphalerite> eyJhb: for when your java isn't pythony enough
<sphalerite> eyJhb: idk, with an appropriate editor plugin/script that manages them automatically I can see that being an acceptable style
<bqv> Irenes[m]: I feel like a pr changing tabs to spaces is slightly rude :p
<sphalerite> 😈
<Irenes[m]> if I am able to contact any of the previous authors, who last looked at it in 1999 and who may or may not speak English, I will let them know
<eyJhb> :( Not sure I like you anymore sphalerite. :( That is just chaos!
<eyJhb> And if we indent by spaces, and the other part by tabs
<bqv> eyJhb: good lord
<bqv> Thats terrifying
<Irenes[m]> I would not do it for software that was maintained, of course :)
<eyJhb> Irenes[m]: else do a Google Translate ;) Seems to work for the ebay sellers
<Irenes[m]> yes, I am in fact going to do that
<Irenes[m]> I expect if I do manage to reach them, they'll be happy somebody remembers it
<sphalerite> eyJhb: spaces for indentation, a single tab at the end of each line to separate the code from the brace noise, combined with a tab width of 200
<Irenes[m]> the history of the code is such that it never really had a maintainer per se, every author made exactly one change
<Taneb> I'm fond of negative indentation, so your inner loops are at the far left of the screen#
<eyJhb> Or ping adisbladis Irenes[m], he might have some skills! But that might be from China, so might not help you
<eyJhb> sphalerite: get out
<eyJhb> :p
<Irenes[m]> I do have friends who can facilitate if I end up needing that, yes
<sphalerite> Irenes[m]: so it's like those little towers of stones that you sometimes see out on hikes. Someone passes, adds something to it, and moves along :D
<Irenes[m]> yes for sure :3
<Irenes[m]> I like that comparison a lot
<sphalerite> and now it's your turn
<ashkitten> Irenes[m]: you're a hero for saving the digital kitten
<eyJhb> Taneb: Not sure what is real and what is fake anymore
<bqv> the readme makes it sound like anime girls chase your cursor
<Irenes[m]> thank you!
<Irenes[m]> bqv well they can do that but if you start it in default mode it's a kitten
<bqv> Ah ok
<adisbladis> eyJhb: Huh, what kind of mess are you trying to pull me in to
<Irenes[m]> it's not sexualized fwiw
<bqv> I presumed: p
<Irenes[m]> I like to be explicit about these things lol
<bqv> Appreciated
<eyJhb> adisbladis: you deserve all the mess I can give you! Such is the life of a Emacser :p
<eyJhb> But it was Hong Kong you where at for some time, right adisbladis ?
<adisbladis> Hai r!
<adisbladis> Dim gai a?
<eyJhb> Don't you use that language with me! (?) :p
<adisbladis> Cantonese? Sure :(
<bqv> Thats not mandarin… or even cantonese, is it?
<bqv> Oh
<adisbladis> I cannot for the life of me type chinese characters
<bqv> lmao
<adisbladis> I'm trying my best
<bqv> :D
<eyJhb> adisbladis: you have your compose key, right? \s :p
<adisbladis> ^_^
<FireFly> the thought of using compose to input hanzi is slightly terrifying :p
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<bqv> Slightly?!
<FireFly> I guess I have a fairly high tolerance for weird ideas :p
<Irenes[m]> okay, I emailed the previous author and it didn't immediately bounce, so no nixpkgs PR until I hear back or decide I'm not going to
<Irenes[m]> good night
<FireFly> sleep well
<Irenes[m]> thank you
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<Woutifier> how do people decide what goes in the system-wide configuration.nix and what goes in the user config? (home-manager?)
<Woutifier> I'm in the process of experimenting, and trying to find the correct/good approach to where to store config files for what
<__monty__> I just put everything I can in home-manager.
<__monty__> The idea being I can reuse that on top of nix-darwin.
<__monty__> So configuration.nix is just for whatever can't go in home.nix.
<Woutifier> right, time to figure out home-manager then :-)
<bqv> Woutifier: I have no distinction cause I use the combined module
<bqv> Better everything in one place
<__monty__> I use the HM module too. Still a semantic difference.
<bqv> Ditto then, I guess
<__monty__> I actually don't use the module on nixos, I do on nix-darwin.
<Woutifier> ah there is a module?
<Woutifier> So I can integrate everything into a single file/structure, which has my preference
<bqv> Exactly
<adisbladis> eyJhb: Your jab made me fix my WM input mode :P
<Woutifier> bqv: where is the combined module located?
<adisbladis> MOZ_USE_XINPUT2 is not related to the input mode, that's making the touch screen work
<Woutifier> thanks
<adisbladis> You just stick `imports = [ ./path/to/hm/nixos ];` in your in configuration.nix
<bqv> ^
<adisbladis> `home-manager.users.adisbladis = { ... }: { home.file.blah.source = /somefile; }`
<bqv> `home-manager.users.bqv = { blah }` works for me
<Woutifier> right, I'm thinking if I should keep home-manager itself as a submodule of my config gitrepo
<adisbladis> That's what I'm doing :)
<bqv> Submodules… scary
<adisbladis> nixpkgs is a submodule too
<adisbladis> Huh, I still have emacs in there
<Woutifier> the whole workflow around submodules is a bit esoteric indeed :-P
<bqv> .gitmodules inspires mortal fear in me
<bqv> Interacting with it is never good news
<adisbladis> I'll move over to subtrees any year now
<bqv> Nyeh, I'm gonna stick to separate or not separate repos
<bqv> Simpler
<bqv> Warning
<bqv> > There is no notion of an escaping character in xonsh like the backslash (\) in bash.
<{^_^}> error: syntax error, unexpected IN, expecting ')', at (string):310:45
<bqv> Gah.
<adisbladis> bqv: Why would you want to?
<bqv> For one, for the convenience of things like nixpkgs#xonsh, which now get interpreted as a comment
<bqv> but also, I can't figure out a way of escaping an env var for echo without using python
<bqv> Though I guess I should just be doing that in python mode anyway
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<sphalerite> joepie91: not only does geizhals have great filtering and data, it also works excellently without javascript and loads delightfully fast :D
<sphalerite> joepie91: I'd pay for this if I had the option
<andi-> anyone else noticed that GitHub is now sending edits of comments via Mail? I huge improvement. Now if those mails would also say that they are for an edit and not just be another mail that would be great :)
<__monty__> I always wondered whether they at least cached a comment for a bit before sending a mail. I invariably end up editing my comments right after submitting.
<ar> sphalerite: you kind of are, at least if you buy/add to cart things from the links you click
<manveru> man... electron-builder on nixos is a dumpster fire...
<MichaelRaskin> Now just to find a way to create GitHub issues by sending emails from a registered address…
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<adisbladis> s/on nixos//
<adisbladis> manveru: ^ ftfy
<manveru> :D
<manveru> true that
<manveru> i'm halfway into making a working nix-build for an electron app for this, and the rabbit hole keeps going deeper
<__monty__> Feel free to make it completely generic so I can reuse your work. Have an electron app somewhere on the todo list.
<__monty__> : )
<bqv> MichaelRaskin: then maybe create PRs too! Then who needs a browser
<infinisil> I've been thinking a bit about how to store data for e.g. the karma here, and one idea I really like is to do it without any on-disk state, only logs. So instead of storing "foo has 10 karma", it stores 10 log entries that increase the karma
<MichaelRaskin> Well, logs are on-disk state
<MichaelRaskin> Append-only is nice, but there is some overhead at some point
<infinisil> Yeah, but like nothing is changed, only appended (I guess the files are changed, but you get what I mean!)
<MichaelRaskin> So you might end up with logs plus checkpointing
<infinisil> This has the advantage that I can change how state is represented in memory without doing any migrations
<infinisil> (assuming I can keep the log format forwards compatible, but that's not too hard)
<infinisil> MichaelRaskin: I think for the state of this bot, I should get by with only one checkpoint per state structure (so I discard the checkpoint if the memory representation of the state changes)
<infinisil> This means recomputing everything if I make any changes to it, but that won't be very often, and there's no too much state anyways
<infinisil> If I wanted to reuse checkpoints of previous versions, this would already require migration, which I'm trying to avoid
* infinisil isn't sure if this is a good idea
<infinisil> Eh, even if it takes a minute to compute the state for a new version, that's probably fine. And I doubt it will take a minute with how much state there is, computers are fast
<infinisil> But if it *does* become a problem, I'm thinking about "compressing" the state change logs, e.g. I'd compress "increase 1, increase 1, increase 1" into "increase 3", giving the same effect but with only one log entry
<bqv> JJJollyjim: the font
<bqv> My god
<JJJollyjim> hm? it's the default bootstrap picks
<JJJollyjim> what are you seeing?
<bqv> Some dodgy cursive
<bqv> I can barely read it
<bqv> Glad it wasn't intentional
<JJJollyjim> wtf
<JJJollyjim> it should be -apple-system,BlinkMacSystemFont,"Segoe UI",Roboto,"Helvetica Neue",Arial,"Noto Sans",sans-serif,"Apple Color Emoji","Segoe UI Emoji","Segoe UI Symbol","Noto Color Emoji"
<JJJollyjim> have you seen it on other bootstrap sites?
<bqv> Also no
<JJJollyjim> that's really odd, the th inherits the same font-family from body that everything else does
<JJJollyjim> ... and it's rendering numbers as emoji?
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<bqv> Yeah, yikes
<manveru> JJJollyjim: can you add https://linux.die.net/man/1/sipsak ? or do you only track security tools in kali?
<drakonis> this also exists https://blackarch.org/
<JJJollyjim> Hmmm
<drakonis> seems to have way more packages than kali
<JJJollyjim> I was only counting the ones from their "tools" metapackages, it looks like sipsak is a debian package too
<JJJollyjim> So I wouldn't really consider it in scope (it's got the same status as apt or firefox essentially)
<manveru> ok, cool :)
<JJJollyjim> god the aesthetic of that website drakonis
<JJJollyjim> i cant decide whether to hate it
<JJJollyjim> hmmm, i wonder how many of the blackarch packages could be machine-translated into nix packages :P
<JJJollyjim> would be neat if i could just install them all and manually package them one-by-one
<drakonis> i'm not sure how to feel about this
<drakonis> first they're using nxos.org
<JJJollyjim> lol
<drakonis> looks like it will be solved soon
<xd1le> I remember using arch as my daily driver. But the thought of using arch today almost feels barbaric xd
<drakonis> i do wish they'd stop using nxos.org
<JJJollyjim> i'm still a barbarian :(
<JJJollyjim> i wanna move my laptop over asap
<JJJollyjim> but i'm so proud of my desktop install
<JJJollyjim> because it represents 7 years of being serious enough about debugging that i never gave up and reinstalled
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<drakonis> arch is most deffo archaic at this point
<drakonis> real talk though
<drakonis> how many arch users are migrating to nixos right now?
<drakonis> is it trendy to run nixos?
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<drakonis> also regarding the directx12 on linux thing
<drakonis> its not getting upstreamed lol
<drakonis> to nobody's surprise, the kernel devs arent allowing upstreaming proprietary code shims
<eyJhb> Anyone here using Discord , and have gotten screen sharing to work with a single screen?
<xd1le> to me it just "feels" like arch is still popular because I still see it being mentioned a lot. otoh ive seen a lot of people in the nixos community say they came from arch over the years.
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<manveru> eyJhb: i guess the same as all the other non-xrandr aware apps... either turn off the other monitors, or go through obs
<ornxka> i still use arch lol
<ornxka> in a container
<adisbladis> Nice save
<ornxka> i use it whenever i want to run binaries
<ornxka> since i cant be bothered setting up buildfhsuserenv or whatever
<xd1le> drakonis: isn't that for WSL? How is WSL related to the Linux kernel? I know nothing about WSL but curious how
<JJJollyjim> WSL 2 is just linux in a VM
<xd1le> Ah, ty
<JJJollyjim> (wsl 1 was a syscall translation layer)
<xd1le> That's what I thought it was and so was curious
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<eyJhb> manveru: any good way of doing that, besides sharing the OBS studio window?
<MichaelRaskin> I think OBS studio way meant «v4l2loopback»
<eyJhb> Well, requires I add that to my system and rebuilds. Right?
<MichaelRaskin> No idea
<manveru> yeah, i have the config here...
<manveru> and then configure obs to stream to `rtmp://`
<manveru> eyJhb: ^ :)
<bqv> ornxka: but you can just use patchelf or that ld-linux option that got hidden away somewhere
<bqv> or better yet, just not regularly run random binaries :p
<emily> "just don't use your computer, for ideological reasons", and other extremely successful historical arguments of the free software movement
<emily> ironically "running software that just wants a normal distro" is something where the more effort you put in, the worse sandboxing you get
<bqv> if "don't give random people your password" managed to catch on, i don't see why "don't give random untrusted binaries unfettered system access" can't
<emily> just run a VM → set up a container → make it work in the global environment
<ornxka> well, i run it in a container exactly because i dont want to give it unfettered system access
<ornxka> and since im already there i might as well pick the one that involves the least amount of work to get things working
<bqv> i'd have to ask why you're running it in the first place, but that borders on nosy
<ornxka> i like to play video games on my computer :p
<bqv> well there's your problem!
* ornxka install supertuxcart instead
<bqv> it's the only game you'll ever need
<ornxka> honestly you can get pretty far with gzdoom and custom wads
<ornxka> the modding scene for that game boggles my mind
<sphalerite> supertuxkart ♥
<MichaelRaskin> bqv: you are denying the glory of Tuxracer??
<bqv> haha, oh yes :D
<sphalerite> I recently discovered that supertuxkart now has online multiplayer
<ornxka> >Similarly to Warmux, the official characters are the mascots of free and open-source projects, for instance Thunderbird (Referee) (for Mozilla Thunderbird), Tux (mascot) (Linux kernel), Adiumy (Adium), Beastie (BSD),
<ornxka> this is literally just a foss version of hyperdimension neptunia
<emily> lmao
<MichaelRaskin> But also, LiquidWar
etu1 is now known as etu
<emily> bqv: well, for instance, "don't give random [websites] your password" proved untenable since pretty much nobody is immune to spear-phishing, hence the benefit of password managers that filter by origin
<emily> people are always going to run arbitrary code, the best thing you can do is make the most convenient thing also the most secure thing
<emily> of course if you religiously block JS and audit all code on your system before you run it this probably won't convince you (but I'm not sure I'd use nixpkgs in that case...)
<bqv> i mean i'm not tinfoily enough to block JS, but gentoo/nixos/guix etc. make it pretty easy to get by just fine without running anything you don't have explicit source for
<emily> also, people have weird ideas about what counts as "running arbitrary code"
<emily> git clone && cd && ./configure is precisely as dangerous as curl | sh is precisely as dangerous as /some/random/elf/file
<bqv> not exactly
<emily> (ok, not precisely, there are marginal additional threat models with curl|sh, but in practice it's not what people actually freak out about)
<bqv> former allows for review of the source, so even if you don't personally do it, it's likely it's done. latter allows for binaries to even be swapped without your knowledge, especially given most people can't be arsed with all the hash checking nonsense
<bqv> like, i'm not a privacy nut, but even i don't see how you can deny that sourceful code is safer than random binaries
<emily> "it's likely it's done" sadly, this is... unwarranted optimism
<ornxka> i think the only reason why running random binaries is bad is because linux has a bad security model where programs run by the user by default have access to everything in your ~
<emily> it's usually like nobody bothers looking for N years, then someone finds some awful low-hanging fruit, it blows up, and then people go at it for vultures for a while before giving up
<MichaelRaskin> Well, there are no guarantees that ./configure only runs things shipped as source code
<ornxka> in the future running random elf files will be as safe as running js
<MichaelRaskin> Of course, we have seen CPUs have so bad security model that running JS in a perfectly implemented browser on a perfectly implemented OS is still insecure
<emily> ornxka: attack surface is attack surface and exposing the kinds of OS/HW APIs you need for, say, a modern desktop application running in a Turing-complete language comes with inherent attack surface
<emily> which is not to disagree with your point about security model, but rather: running JS isn't very safe either
<emily> plenty of JS-based 0-days used in the wild etc.
<ornxka> yes this will have to happen after formal methods take off and arbitrary code execution stops existing
<emily> (of course, it's all relative.)
<emily> sadly fundamental hardware changes are required too :(
<ornxka> oh yeah the side channel stuff also makes it hard
<emily> in the meantime, piling on the mitigations...
<MichaelRaskin> Good computer security being infeasible is actually better than the alternative
<ornxka> sort of
<MichaelRaskin> Because we can be pretty sure by now that the only security threat model the hardware vendors consider is the horrible threat of the buyer actually using the device they have bought as they please
<ornxka> lol
<Taneb> This is why I refuse to use computers and any internet-connected device
<ornxka> yeah its kidn of a blessing sometimes that stuff doesnt really work
<ornxka> since otherwise jailbreaking would be impossible
<xd1le> I guess coq/agda is the most secure language then :p
<xd1le> s/is/are
<emily> MichaelRaskin: whenever I read the (admittedly arcane) chrome OS firmware and security chip reflashing docs, I wonder what confluence of events even lead to it having a user-exposed closed-case debug mechanism that can replace all the keys with your own if you want, because it surely can't be Google corporate priorities
<emily> (from having seen comments by relevant developers on the internet I think the answer is honestly just "the firmware team really wanted it and nobody else could stop them")
<ornxka> emily: clearly the work of gnu sabbateurs working from the inside
<MichaelRaskin> Well, Google does not want to see the morale impact of restricting open source collaboration, so I guess these procedures were exploited to get a sign-off
<MichaelRaskin> «We open-source the Chromebooks OS, right? Please sign off on our component list for it, and the proposed procedures for OS reinstallation by user»
<emily> "Google does not want to see the morale impact of restricting open source collaboration" ahahaha
<emily> you clearly haven't heard about the process for getting approved for open-source contributions
<emily> esp. with non-Google copyright line (and there's things they'll just refuse to have their name on, so, catch-22)
<MichaelRaskin> Hmmmmm
<emily> I think unless your job at Google involves working on free software or your free software contributions just consist of "dropping code dumps on the GitHub google account" it's... not as great as you might hope (though still better than many corporations that wouldn't allow it at all of course)
<MichaelRaskin> Well, Chrom* does claim to have free software core
<emily> yeah, different rules if you're on the Chrome side or things or Android or such (though maybe less so with the latter these days)
<emily> (maybe not "different rules" per se so much as less local friction around it)
<emily> (but I think there's still crappy bureaucracy bottlenecks)
<emily> MichaelRaskin: still, e.g. the Pixelbook is notably friendlier to user freedoms than the Pixel 3, even though both are Google hardware running an open-core Google OS with a Google security chip providing boot security
<emily> so there's clearly something beyond that general context happening there (and I guess most of it is "luck")
<MichaelRaskin> Well, also «market reference point»
<__monty__> Maybe flagshipness matters? Chromebooks are more bargain-bin so they're a less significant market share and attracting devs becomes a relatively more important proposition?
<emily> the Pixelbook was definitely not bargain bin
<emily> like ~$1k
<emily> though I think its replacement is cheaper
<MichaelRaskin> Well, Pixelbooks get compared to Thinkpads or Zenbooks.
<emily> but yeah, higher dev appeal is probably a large part of it
<__monty__> It's more bargain bin in terms of performance and features yeah.
<emily> the perf is about as good as you could hope for out of a fanless "i7", tbh
<emily> (which is admittedly not that much, remember when i7 meant something?)
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<cole-h> emily: Do you have a swap partition, a swapfile, or neither?
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<emily> cole-h: on what, my laptop? well, it's the same everywhere really: I have a swap partition even though I probably don't need one
<emily> linux behaves weird if you have absolutely 0 swap and disk is cheap and I open a lot of tabs so I just make a big one and then wonder why everything is slow
<cole-h> Do you have it at the beginning (just after boot) or at the end (after everything else)?
<emily> also theoretically I might want to use hibernation, though in practice there's a bunch of things preventing that (e.g. random swap encryption)
<emily> before, apparently. that's weird because I thought it was after
<cole-h> The NixOS install guide wanted it at the end, which I thought was weird, but I've never set up a swap partition before lol
<emily> I guess my meaningless aesthetic preference cosmic bitflipped
<emily> it won't matter unless you're on spinning rust
<cole-h> And if I was, what would be the best -- the end?
<cole-h> (I mean, I currently am, but I'll be installing to my SSD once this trial is over anyways)
<emily> I should have a mirrored boot partition on the server really, these kind of suck
<emily> what would be best: uhhhh, I have no idea. maybe theoretically before because you're more likely to have data towards the start of the disk when the partition is less full, and so the swap will be closer?
<emily> the real answer is "swap on mechanical disks has terrible performance and you never want to use it, so just make enough for safety or hibernation and try not to use it"
<cole-h> "~> doas" 👀
<cole-h> Thanks for the insight, I appreciate it.
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<sphalerite> emily: or in some place where the position on the physical platter is as far inside as possible, for lower latency. lol.
<emily> sphalerite: right, I guess it's even more complicated... is there a good way of predicting where that would actually be?
<emily> gonna write a viral blog post on the optimal place to position your partitions for maximum speeeeeeeeed
<MichaelRaskin> Lower latency is outside
<MichaelRaskin> Sorry, higher speed is outside
<MichaelRaskin> Latency is one rotation anyway
<ajs124> because of higher angular velocity?
<MichaelRaskin> Linear for the same angular
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<__monty__> So if you mostly swap, outside is best while if you alternate swapping and reading/writing files inside might be better?
<__monty__> How about splitting your disk in half and having a swap partition in the middle?
<Taneb> Commands take a lot less time to run if you remember to press "enter"
<joepie91> can confirm: pressing enter accelerates execution
<__monty__> Instructions unclear, enter stuck in radiator, send help.
* joepie91 presses F1
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<emily> does anyone have suggestions for GIMP-replacing free software raster image editors that don't depend on, like, GTK+ 2 / Python 2 / ...? I know Krita is good for digital painting but I'm more interested in the general "raster manipulation" functionality (which I guess it might be fine at too, the interface just didn't seem very optimized for it the last time I tried)
<__monty__> On a mac there's seashore don't know any other contenders.
<gchristensen> seashore: save your work often
<__monty__> Inkscape sufices for most of my image editing needs tbh.
<infinisil> Nooooo
<infinisil> I accidentally checked and committed and pushed a 250 MB zip file into my system repo
<gchristensen> eh, rollback and force push
<cole-h> RIP
<infinisil> Ah I haven't pushed yet!
<infinisil> Nice
<infinisil> False alarm!
<gchristensen> I'm not sure github lets you push such a large file
<adisbladis> 50MB limit iirc
<adisbladis> Migrating an old client to GitHub is how I learnt about `git filter-branch`
<infinisil> Ah nice
<adisbladis> They checked in _all_ vendor sdks
<adisbladis> Which in their case was a few gigs in total
* cole-h is currently documenting how he set up his system this time to make the next install go smooth as
<infinisil> Damn
<ornxka> cole-h: always a good idea
<ornxka> for a long time i just turned off bash history max length
<ornxka> but it turns out it gets truncated anyway no matter what you do, for reasons i cant be bothered understanding
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* etu helped the frontend team to migrate their repository from some other git hosting to github enterprise which kindly rejected their repo because of a 1GiB core dump that they had commited and removed
<adisbladis> cole-h: 1. Follow the NixOS manual to do a fresh install 2. Copy hardware-configuration.nix to my repo 3. nixops deploy
<adisbladis> That's pretty much my workflow around new machines
<adisbladis> etu: Haha
<adisbladis> Tbh Git should have a max file size default
<cole-h> adisbladis: It's my first real install in a while, so I want to be more thorough than that :P
<adisbladis> cole-h: Absolutely it's a good thing to document more :)
<adisbladis> It took me a good while to get to this point
<etu> cole-h: I recently did an install in a VM to document my installs: https://elis.nu/blog/2020/05/nixos-tmpfs-as-root/
<cole-h> Right now I've two sections: partitioning step, and pre-install step (which is basically install since it uses `nixops deploy` :D)
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<emily> so it turns out that krita is x11-only :(
<emily> now I'm wondering if I should just package up the unstable gtk3/python3 gimp 3.x branch
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<{^_^}> #67576 (by jtojnar, 38 weeks ago, open): gimp: Testing dev version with Meson
<emily> jtojnar: does that gimp3 package work at all?
<emily> (on linux ofc)
<eyJhb> etu: are you made of ram?
<eyJhb> Also suggestion, the bright blue is unreadable in the code snippets without hightlighting it :(
<adisbladis> eyJhb: Running / on tmpfs requires surprisingly little ram
<eyJhb> Suspect having /tmp as tmpfs requires more
<eyJhb> I demand the $HOME as tmpfs post etu :p
<eyJhb> adisbladis: do you use homemanager?
<eyJhb> And would be awesome for nix itself, to touch $HOME
<adisbladis> eyJhb: Yes
<adisbladis> tmpfs / (& /home) would be near unusable without home-manager
<cole-h> adisbladis: Do you use the NixOS module, or no?
<adisbladis> cole-h: Yes
<adisbladis> In fact, this setup _only_ works if you use the NixOS module
<cole-h> Heh
<adisbladis> You need the home activation systemd thing to be set up already when you log in
<gchristensen> https://twitter.com/nlhkabu/status/1263132447971172352 "The pip team needs your help!Do you have complex project dependencies?We want you to try to break pip's new dependency resolver..." some people here might be interested :P
<emily> hrm, what's the correct way to refer to the system (like x86_64-linux) of a nixos system in its config?
<emily> (trying to do nix.package = inputs.nix.packages.${system}.nix; rather than use the overlay for <reasons>)
<eyJhb> The nixos module?
<__monty__> eyJhb: The HM module for nixos/nix-darwin.
<emily> oops, just realized this is -chat
<emily> adisbladis: why do you need home-manager for tmpfs / without tmpfs /home?
<bqv> tmpfs home as in, you have no state persistence on your system whatsoever?
<bqv> that sounds less than useful
<sphalerite> bqv: with appropriate mounts for explicitly desired state :)
<lovesegfault> Hmm Iosevka isn't all bad
<lovesegfault> Think I'm getting used to is
<bqv> right
<bqv> interesitng
<bqv> but that also sounds painstaking
<bqv> my goal is similar but rather than perfectly specifying every directory, i'll just do a nix-like solution and have a $HOME for each individual package i need
<bqv> then they can have whatever tree they want and i can still nuke them with extreme prejudice
<cole-h> lovesegfault: My favorite font tbh
<cole-h> If only because it's so customizable
<drakonis> bqv: that's similar to flatpak
<lovesegfault> cole-h: I like hack
<bqv> heh, it is isn't it
<lovesegfault> but I was attracted to the idea of a narrower, taller, font
<cole-h> The only thing I hate about Iosevka is its build system
<drakonis> every application has its own tree
<cole-h> It pegs all 4 of my cores to 100% for like 7 minutes just to build the font
<lovesegfault> I don't like the curlies
<lovesegfault> they are like CURLY
<lovesegfault> {
<lovesegfault> Too curled
<cole-h> Is this the default curly?
<lovesegfault> Yes
<cole-h> I'm shocked. I quite like it. But there's also `v-brace-straight`: https://i.imgur.com/ysVPERQ.png
<sphalerite> blaaaargh. How do I get my server to boot
* pie_ hands sphalerite a boot
<pie_> D:
<MichaelRaskin> No, the goal is to get a server to boot, not a boot to the server
<bqv> Does it have to be the right size?
<__monty__> Pretty sure there's a saying, when the server can't get to boot, boot has to go to the server.
<lovesegfault> cole-h: Oh, those are nice!
<lovesegfault> How do I configure my iosevka?
<cole-h> lovesegfault: I think you need to override and set `privateBuildPlan = { design = [ "variant1" "variant2" ]; };`
<cole-h> I use an overlay now, so I can set the recursive hash so it doesn't rebuild all the time... lol
<cole-h> That's the basic of my overlay. Mostly taken from the existing derivation in nixpkgs, but modified for me.
<lovesegfault> Going to resist the temptation of overengineering my font
<cole-h> btw lovesegfault that screenshot was from the Iosevka repo, if you didn't already notice.
<cole-h> s/notice/know/
<gchristensen> comic-mono is the perfect middle ground between "not caring at all" and "over-engineering"
<lovesegfault> gchristensen: is it based on comic sans?!
<gchristensen> yes
<gchristensen> you might say comic-mono is the pragmatic choice
<cole-h> Oh no
<gchristensen> oh yes cole-h
<lovesegfault> tbh Hack is the easiest good mono font
<__monty__> Monoid and fira are other options if you insist on ligatures.
<cole-h> I really hate the dot-zero, tbh
<__monty__> Dejavu Sans is still king though.
<lovesegfault> cole-h: the what?
<lovesegfault> I strongly dislike ligatures
<__monty__> lovesegfault: Isn't iosevka ligature heavy?
<lovesegfault> cole-h: Oh, I love that
<lovesegfault> __monty__: it can be, but Alacritty doesn't support ligatures :P
<cole-h> Yeah, I explicitly disabled ligatures in my custom iosevka :^)
<pie_> so which way do you roll your toilet paper
<lovesegfault> Are you serious? there's only one way
<lovesegfault> with the paper coming from the top
<gchristensen> cat-proof
<__monty__> Clearly you haven't been introduced to vertical TP mounting.
<lovesegfault> __monty__: that's too fancy
<cole-h> pls no
<cole-h> Means I have to twist my hand
<lovesegfault> I WANT ERGO TP HOLDERS NOW!
<bqv> Do you not have opposable thumbs?
<cole-h> Nope, I am a canid.
<sphalerite> I want corona-safe hands-free tp dispensers.
<__monty__> Like a bidet?
<sphalerite> I've never used one, but maybe.
<srhb> If your bidet is hands-free you probably have your fiber intake covered well and good and don't need the bidet.
<__monty__> OR you plumb it up to firehose-grade pipes : >
<srhb> fwooooooompf
<gchristensen> a two-for-one special: a free colonic with every use.
<srhb> how did we get here even
<gchristensen> I ask myself that daily
<gchristensen> letting the days go by
<MichaelRaskin> Let me just remind you all that high-pressure water-stream cutting is a thing
<gchristensen> this is not my beautiful operating system
<gchristensen> this is not my beautiful community
<MichaelRaskin> So, needs careful calibration
<gchristensen> how do I work this
<gchristensen> same as it ever was
<viric> Mh it seems I have valuable certificates in firefox's cert8.db. But firefox now uses cert9.db.
<gchristensen> once in a lifetime
<__monty__> gchristensen: So existential?
<MichaelRaskin> viric: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Mozilla/Projects/NSS/Reference/NSS_tools_:_certutil : --update-merge maybe? With proper backups, as usual
<viric> MichaelRaskin: I just found that link. I have to find certutil...
<viric> thank you. I promise I posted here after failing to find anything valuable
<MichaelRaskin> viric: nss.tools
<viric> nssTools..
<viric> oh multiple outputs.
<viric> that doesn't work with nix-env -iA I see.
<MichaelRaskin> nix-env -iA does not like specifying nss.tools explicitly??
<viric> MichaelRaskin: it likes that, but installs the 'dev'
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<MichaelRaskin> Ouch. Wow.
<MichaelRaskin> Now I am intrigued
<viric> or it installs something that doesn't put certutil in path.
<viric> at last.
<viric> at least. But the command brought the store path for the tools in the terminal so I installed that apth.
<MichaelRaskin> It's .out
<viric> it installs .out you mean?
<MichaelRaskin> Yes
<viric> hm could be. I said 'dev' because it was the last "copying path" I saw printed.
<viric> but tools are apart.
<viric> damn it, the --upgrade-merge command wants a dozen of arguments I don't know about
<MichaelRaskin> What about not giving it these?
<viric> giving only the minimum (I invent the 1):
<viric> certutil --upgrade-merge --source-dir . --upgrade-id 1
<viric> certutil: function failed: SEC_ERROR_BAD_DATABASE: security library: bad database.
<viric> but how common people deal with that?
<MichaelRaskin> Common people do not have custom certificates?
<viric> it's very common to do administration things with the state
<viric> I wonder maybe we don't give firefox some dependency for the old dbm files...
<viric> or even nss. nss has sqlite but not dbm as input.. mh
<viric> nss includes the dbm source code in it.
<emily> probably a good idea to keep precious private keys/certificates backed up outside a browser's internal store
<viric> MichaelRaskin: I managed to run the upgrade (inventing upgrade-id numbers) and I get: database already upgraded. but my old certs are not in the new db :)
<MichaelRaskin> Maybe run in a directory with the old DB but without the new?
<MichaelRaskin> Just as a check…
<viric> yes I do that; otherwise it opens only the new.
<viric> I guess it has to do with the id but I don't know what's that
<viric> I can pretty print the cert with "certutil -L -n name" but I can't extract the key. grmbl.
<gchristensen> is it easy to run a qemu vm and say "actually, just give the guest unabated access to my hardware?"
<pistache_> gchristensen: if the hardware in question is not used by the host and sits in its own IOMMU group, it's quite easy
<gchristensen> in this case the host would be running entirely out of ram (netbooted) and I wouldn't want to have to enumerate hardware to pass through
<emily> you can't just pass through arbitrary devices that are in use on the host system in general
<gchristensen> yeah
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<etu> emily: I wouldn't say that you need hm for tmpfs / if you have a persistent /home
<etu> eyJhb: It's fun that I leave notes about my weird setup in each post so people request the follow-up :D
<MichaelRaskin> gchristensen: well, you might need special care to make sure something PCI is not formally speaking in use
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<gchristensen> mmm
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<cole-h> gchristensen: You might be interested in my libvirt setup -- I give the guest "unabated access" by passing through my singular GPU and all my USB hubs to the guest: https://github.com/cole-h/dotfiles/tree/nixos/nixops/scadrial/libvirt
<cole-h> Though if you're running out of ram, things might look different
<cole-h> s/might/will probably/
<gchristensen> hmm cool
<gchristensen> thanks, cole-h!
<cole-h> Additionally (may or may not help), but the Arch wiki article on PCI passthrough via OVMF is extremely well-fleshed out: https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/PCI_passthrough_via_OVMF
<cole-h> (article looks like a fake word -- I have to look it up to make sure I'm spelling it right like every single time)
<cole-h> gchristensen: Why does Skills Matter want my phone number? :(
<eyJhb> etu: get going with it!
<gchristensen> no idea!
<gchristensen> don't give it to 'em!
<eyJhb> Thinking of taking my other x230. plug in a SSD and try it out
<cole-h> gchristensen: It's required to "Confirm Registration" :'((((
<gchristensen> cole-h: I will ask questions.
<eyJhb> But in-between about tmpfs and ZFS. gchristensen have you ever needed to recover a file in /?
<gchristensen> +1-512-867-5309, cole-h
<cole-h> Cheers!
<eyJhb> Crank call gchristensen ? :o
<cole-h> See you on the 28th :^)
<eyJhb> Finally some use for my Skype credits!
<eyJhb> cole-h: you have a lack of tweets!
<cole-h> Yeah, I don't really use Twitter that much :P
<cole-h> In fact, I've used twitter the most in the past ~month (interacting with Graham, mostly lol) than I've ever used it prior
<eyJhb> I use mine less. Never got the feel of Twitter
<cole-h> Really, I just use it to check for what cool things Nix-adjacent people are doing, as well as checking up on SoloKeys every once in a while
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<gchristensen> I asked the skillsmatter people why a phone number is required, and in the mean time I'd encourage everyone to use a variation on +1-xxx-867-5309
<__monty__> And that works why?
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<cole-h> One sec
<gchristensen> it is a traditional protest phone number
<cole-h> That video will explain it all
<eyJhb> Ahh, thanks bot on Discord - https://i.imgur.com/OK1O5bj.png
<__monty__> Hmm, video unavailable.
<gchristensen> it is Jenny, by Tommy Tutone
<cole-h> Oh, sorry :( Stupid region locks
<cole-h> "Tommy Tutone - 867-5309/Jenny"
<cole-h> (Note the phone number -- that's "Jenny"'s number)
<__monty__> Ok, thanks, TIL.
<viric> we have something broken in nss
<viric> hence it fails to update
<viric> certutil tries to open one of its .so libs in the directory of the db.
<viric> the outcome of the errors is reporting "database already upgraded" but it has never opened the old db (checked with strace)
<eyJhb> gchristensen, etu: SSD found, beginning the journey!
<gchristensen> woo!
<eyJhb> Not sure if you answered, but have you ever lost something in /, that you needed to restore?
<eyJhb> Tagging you a little gchristensen , if that is OK :D
<gchristensen> ah
<gchristensen> I have certainly thought dang I wish I hadn't deleted it
<gchristensen> but nothing which was, like, world-ending
<gchristensen> and also: I would never move an existing system over to an erasable root
<eyJhb> But could you have used ZFS to restore those files at all?
<eyJhb> And, that is what might worry me. Loosing some files :p
<eyJhb> Kind of a data hoarder
<gchristensen> not the way I do it,n o
<eyJhb> Damn.. But this might teach me to order my things better
<eyJhb> I have been known to put things into /tmp
<eyJhb> That I wanted
<gchristensen> I have also put things in to *scratch* that I wanted
<andi-> I have a ~/tmp for things that I think aren't worth the disk space..
<andi-> I only delete there manually.. too many files lost by kernel crashes etc..
<eyJhb> gchristensen: is there any good way to do ZFS + Encryption?
<eyJhb> andi-: I have that as well
<eyJhb> + Downloads
<gchristensen> I use luks, but if I reinstalled today I'd just use zfs' encryption
<eyJhb> Loving all the commands this guide want me to throw at it
<andi-> On another distribution I'd probably not use ZFS but on NixOS I can be sure the kernel driver is still there are a reboot
<jtojnar> emily: the gimp works for me
<viric> MichaelRaskin: something is broken with the nss. grmbl.
<adisbladis> If you create your pool with that zpool create command every other dataset will inherit encryption
<viric> maybe nixos related
<eyJhb> adisbladis: thanks, will try to piece it together
<andi-> viric: tell me about it. Someone claimed I would be the defactor maintainer (I just bump it sometimes... know nothing about it...)
<eyJhb> Never used ZFS before, worried if 16 GB ram is enough for tmpfs and ZFS + other stuff
<viric> andi-: oh! I feel lucky
<adisbladis> eyJhb: The ZFS memory requirements are not that high
<adisbladis> Unless you enable dedup
<viric> andi-: I have in firefox cert8.db + key3.db (that's Berkeley DB). There I have certificates and keypairs of an identity of mine.
<eyJhb> adisbladis: I somewhat want dedup
<andi-> make sure to restrict the cache size.. My XPS13 often had hickups before I limited that to 4GB
<andi-> eyJhb: no you dont
<adisbladis> You really, really, really don't want dedup
<eyJhb> andi-: ZFS cache size?
<srhb> eyJhb: Not zfs dedup at least :P
<eyJhb> And why not?
<viric> andi-: firefox should update that to the new sql format (cert9.db + key4.db) and IMPORT all previous data into the new db, but does not.
<cransom> i thought i wanted dedup, but once i had it, i turned it off.
<eyJhb> Why do you all hate on the little dedup? :p
<adisbladis> The costs of dedup are too damn high
<andi-> viric: interesting, no idea.
<srhb> eyJhb: It'll oom and freeze your system. :)
<etu> eyJhb: you don't want dedup :p
<srhb> If you're lucky.
<adisbladis> eyJhb: Use Nix store optimisation
<MichaelRaskin> viric: I have never actually used anything persistent about certificates except maybe per-site trust exceptions
<viric> andi-: an equivalent command for raw nss for that operation should be: certutil --upgrade-merge --source-dir dbm:. --source-prefix "" -d newdir --upgrade-id foo
<andi-> eyJhb: what is the biggest space consumer on your system? Maybe just doing nix-store --optimise and similar is enough. Do not forget about compression.
<adisbladis> Also ZFS compression
<eyJhb> But... You all can't suddenly become active and not want dedup! :p
<andi-> viric: are you on 20.03?
<srhb> eyJhb: Yes, because it's dangerzone :P
<eyJhb> But okay then, no dedup for me :$
<viric> andi-: but this only creates the new void cert9 and key4 files and says "already upgraded", and strace shows that it doesn't even read the old cert8 and key3. I'm on 20.03, yes.
<adisbladis> The use cases for dedup are super narrow
<etu> nix-store --optimize will create hardlinks and that's kinda a dedup without zfs dedup :)
<andi-> viric: do you have a link to the Mozilla docs about that feature?
<viric> andi-: I see that it tries to open "newdir/libnssckbi.so"
<etu> eyJhb: But zfs compression and encryption is nice
<adisbladis> I wonder when you actually want dedup
<andi-> adisbladis: I have friends that use it because they know thei data is mostly duplicates of backup folders containing backup folders containing backup folders containing ..
<srhb> adisbladis: Maybe with toooons of RAM an vm inheritance?
<eyJhb> So, I will try to set it up with encryption, but there is a good chance I will fail hard
<andi-> ,locate certutil
<{^_^}> Found in packages: nssTools.tools, nss_3_51.tools
<andi-> eyJhb: try nix-shell -p nss_3_51.tools and try with those?
<viric> I tried with 3.51
<viric> sorry, 3.52. Mine said 3.52
<andi-> whatever was the additional one I added to 20.03
<andi-> that should be new enough
<viric> no difference
<eyJhb> Never done anything zfs related before, the crate command seems magic
<andi-> eyJhb: it will just work(tm)
<viric> andi-: I also found this: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=554375 2010
<gchristensen> hmmmm.... I think I'm verging on "red-team" activities ... I need to find a way to, inside a docker container, install a package on the alpine host.
<viric> not useful but someone with similar pain as mine
<srhb> gchristensen: Without access to the docker daemon?
<MichaelRaskin> Isn't it apporximately the definition of container escape?
<andi-> viric: that bug report is the perfect example why closing by age is just not the right approach (in most cases)
<gchristensen> srhb: I think I have access to the daemon, I'm also privileged
<srhb> gchristensen: Oh, just mount whatever into the container fs and go nuts as root then.
<viric> andi-: the report is terrible though
<adisbladis> gchristensen: Alright, easy peasy
<srhb> gchristensen: daemon access is root anyway.
<eyJhb> Can I change the flags after I have made the ZFS pool?
<andi-> viric: maybe it only upgrades *on change*?
<gchristensen> yeah but now I need to actually put the pieces together :P
<srhb> gchristensen: there's a mount flag to the run command, just mount / into /mnt in the container or whatnot ^^
<viric> andi-: That step creates the new format files. And next operations work only on the new format files, not the old.
<gchristensen> hmmm let's see if I can do that
<gchristensen> thanks srhb
<etu> eyJhb: I think it depends
<etu> eyJhb: Say: you enable compression
<viric> I need those keypairs and I have no idea how to recover them from firefox.
<etu> eyJhb: Then ZFS won't go and compress all of the files unless you rewrite all of the files.
<srhb> gchristensen: Think it-s -v /:/mnt
<gchristensen> I haven't docker'd much since a *long* time
<viric> andi-: firefox does this upgrade automatically if only old format files are present. But does the same as certutil: does not import anything.
<MichaelRaskin> viric: does firefox have export?
<srhb> gchristensen: And I always docker through k8s, so I'm rusty with the CLI.
<eyJhb> etu: can I force it to check/do so?
<MichaelRaskin> Maybe an old enough Firefox could export them?
<srhb> gchristensen: (And I k8s through nix, so... you know...)
<viric> MichaelRaskin: I think so, to pk12. but I'd need an old firefox.
<gchristensen> :D
<viric> firefox < 50 I think
<MichaelRaskin> We have binary caches !
<etu> eyJhb: just copy the files into a new dataset and mount that instead is one way
<gchristensen> oh cool it is even kind enough to -v /var/run/docker.sock:/var/run/docker.sock for me
<srhb> gchristensen: lol
<adisbladis> How "kind"
<MichaelRaskin> I mean, you don't need to let it connect to the scary network
<viric> MichaelRaskin: I understand
<srhb> "Containerize your stuff for security! Also, here's root access!"
<andi-> security.. As long as you interface with a computer you can make it do something.
<gchristensen> srhb: I think this containerization is really an attempt at having closures :P
<andi-> Even if it is ignoring you or wasting CPU cycles.
<srhb> gchristensen: Something like that, yeah.
<srhb> gchristensen: Works pretty well for "runs for me"-closures.
<etu> eyJhb: So things like compression and ashift=12 is things you *WANT* to have set to begin with
<gchristensen> yeah
<gchristensen> srhb: by design, the job of my container is to achieve persistence on the host, so this isn't so unexpected
<viric> MichaelRaskin: nixos 17.09 should do..
<srhb> Sure sure :)
<srhb> I'm only bitter because it's actually difficult even when you want to properly and security isolate something with docker.
<srhb> securely*
<MichaelRaskin> srhb: it's actually difficult when you want to properly and security isolate
<gchristensen> for sure
<MichaelRaskin> The rest is just context not necessary for the statement to be true
<etu> eyJhb: and encryption ofc
<srhb> MichaelRaskin: The context is important for my meaning to carry though, Docker is promoting itself in what I feel is dishonest ways in this space.
<srhb> "Plug and play" security -- lies and damn lies :P
<MichaelRaskin> Yes, I agree with your latest statement
<MichaelRaskin> For Docker, and in general
<adisbladis> etu: Compression can be enabled after the fact
<adisbladis> I'm not sure about encryption
<adisbladis> asheft, definitely not
<adisbladis> ashift*
<cole-h> etu: I was just going through your config since you seem to be the only one on search.tx0.co that uses sonarr... and I saw this: https://github.com/etu/nixconfig/blob/bb40bcfeb9e5e0ee63bc6e5a682b7f387702e6e8/hosts/fenchurch/configuration.nix#L110
<gchristensen> encryption cannot be enabled on a dataset after the fact
<cole-h> "root.initialHashedPassword = hashedEtuPassword" lol
<etu> gchristensen: Reasonable :)
<adisbladis> I figured as much
<adisbladis> Compression can be though :)
<etu> cole-h: I seem to have swapped them lol :D
<adisbladis> Any new blocks will be compressed
<eyJhb> Lets create the pool
<adisbladis> Lets spin the wheel
<eyJhb> I really cannot type qwerty anymore
<etu> eyJhb: That's a good sign
<eyJhb> Not on my laptop, but on anything elso than my x230, I can somewhat
<adisbladis> I still can!
<adisbladis> I don't want to, but I can
<eyJhb> adisbladis: do like Elsa and get out, showing off and stuff haha :p
<adisbladis> Huh?
<eyJhb> I want to and cannot :p
<adisbladis> Elsa?
<eyJhb> (Banished my cat Elsa from my work area atm. she was annyoing and curious)
<eyJhb> (white fur and big blue eyes => Elsa)
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<eyJhb> adisbladis: how often do you use qwerty?
<adisbladis> eyJhb: A few times a year maybe
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<viric> MichaelRaskin: it worked!
<viric> MichaelRaskin: BUT it lists certificates expired in 2016.
<eyJhb> I think I am basically none-funtional on anything but my ergodox-ez by now...
<eyJhb> What is the difference between -O and -o? Why ZFS
<etu> eyJhb: zpool create [-dfn] [-m mountpoint] [-o property=value]... [-o feature@feature=value] [-O file-system-property=value]... [-R root] pool vdev...
<MichaelRaskin> viric: I think we are past the point of «do it properly» and in the zone of «let it export everything it should, and maybe more»?
<viric> MichaelRaskin: with "certutil -L ....." I get a certificate valid until Mon Jun 15 07:18:28 2020
<viric> MichaelRaskin: it can't export everything
<srhb> eyJhb: -O is for file system level properties that can only go on the root file system, I think.
<MichaelRaskin> Hm, it _only_ exports old certificates?
<srhb> eyJhb: So it sort of makes sense.
<viric> MichaelRaskin: you have to choose what cert to export export
<viric> MichaelRaskin: AH found it. It's not under "People" certificates, but "Others" certificates. o_O
<MichaelRaskin> Certificates are multiple messes t once!
<viric> mh it seems firefox 56 sees the certificates but not the private keys...
<viric> maybe a firefox update lost the keys. mh...
<MichaelRaskin> Maybe you need to import it using another page?
<viric> I can only export to 'pem', crt.... that's without private key.
<MichaelRaskin> Or maybe _export_ needs to be done in multiple parts?
<MichaelRaskin> Hm
<viric> no no. I did this before. Firefox doesn't know the private key for this. They are gone. mh.
<viric> I have to look for backups...
<aleph-> Neat
<viric> no old enough backups for ~/.mozilla I'm afraid.
<pie_> aleph-: thats funny i just started sketching a nix knockoff for a game package manager
<viric> MichaelRaskin: but starting firefox 56 from 17.09 has been qyite a thing.
<aleph-> pie_: heh
<aleph-> pie_: I'm continuing getting openstack going and fixed up
<aleph-> May the Lord have mercy on my soul for this
<MichaelRaskin> viric: Nix makes this «oh right I can also do this» instead of «ouch how do I do this»
<srhb> aleph-: _all_ of openstack?
<viric> MichaelRaskin: definitely
<aleph-> srhb: A good portion at least
<srhb> aleph-: Color me interested :)
<viric> so firefox with its nss is losing the keys.
<aleph-> Need compute, storage, image storage, dashboard, networking, etc
<drakonis> https://nix.dev/ woah dude
<aleph-> srhb: I mean there was already a module. I'm building off that
<aleph-> drakonis: Oh thanks. Was meaning to show that to push
<srhb> aleph-: Oh, I thought that was removed ages ago
<__monty__> drakonis: That's the reST demo, right?
<aleph-> srhb: It was! I'm stealing it and working off it
<srhb> aleph-: Ah, gotcha. :)
<aleph-> Since I doubt I'll ever upstream this
<srhb> aleph-: Oh, I was about to say ping me when you PR :P
<drakonis> aleph-: when did you find out about it?
<aleph-> Maybe leave it in an importable setup like the mail server module
<aleph-> drakonis: Eh few weeks ago?
<drakonis> oh, huh.
<drakonis> neat.
<pie_> woah what is this <drakonis> https://nix.dev/ woah dude
<pie_> i see
<pie_> im tellin you man we need our own friggin search engine sigh
<aleph-> Lol
<andi-> whats the point of that nix.dev documentation when there is already the wiki?
<drakonis> its a reference document
<drakonis> the wiki can change at any time
<drakonis> its not unlike the arch wiki
<andi-> that website can also go down at any point or change o.O
<drakonis> nix.dev would be curated documentation
<drakonis> that's by domen kozar tho
<viric> MichaelRaskin: firefox from 19.03 also knows to import the certificates properly to the new format. 20.03 (and its nss) not. cc andi-
<andi-> If it works ;)
<andi-> viric: oh well /o\
<viric> but I lost my keys
<drakonis> given time
<andi-> I wish we had a sane way to do upgrade tests (between package versions, between nixos realses)
<drakonis> it can also replace the nix pills
<viric> I bet the keys vanished in some problem of nss in firefox
<viric> I use the keys once a year so...
<viric> I can ask new keys.
<viric> to the state authority
<drakonis> well actually
<drakonis> its on its way to replace it
<eyJhb> well, "filesystem `rpool/local/nix` cannot be mounted, unable to open dataset"...
<drakonis> the main issue with the pills is that its accuracy goes down as nix changes
<eyJhb> Created a zpool rpool, with encryption, created a zfs -p -o mountpoint=legacy zpool/local/nix, mounted tmpfs on /mnt, created dir /mnt/nix/ and mounting with `sudo mount -t zfs rpool/local/nix /mnt/nix`
<eyJhb> adisbladis, etu, gchristensen, srhb any ideas?
<gchristensen> do you need to decrypt it?
<eyJhb> maaybe, no clue. How do I see that?
<eyJhb> I shouldn't, should I ? Just created it, etc. Can't see anything in the NixOS guide
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<eyJhb> Can it be because I have used `-R /mnt` when creating the zpool gchristensen ?
<eyJhb> Also, key already loaded for the pool
<MichaelRaskin> viric: how did you even receive the key so that the Firefox kept the only copy?
<infinisil> > randomPackage
<{^_^}> "pkgs.twemoji-color-font: Color emoji SVGinOT font using Twitter Unicode 10 emoji with diversity and country flags <https://github.com/eosrei/twemoji-color-font>"
<infinisil> > randomPackage
<{^_^}> "pkgs.primusLib: Low-overhead client-side GPU offloading <https://github.com/amonakov/primus>"
<infinisil> Very nice
<infinisil> (only does top-level packages)
<MichaelRaskin> An emoji font and a tool to work around Nvidia driver situation being bad? Not sure I like that roll of dice…
<infinisil> > randomPackage
<{^_^}> "pkgs.pmount: Mount removable devices as normal user <https://bazaar.launchpad.net/~fourmond/pmount/main/files>"
<cole-h> lol
<MichaelRaskin> Definitely much better!
<infinisil> :P
<infinisil> > randomPackage
<{^_^}> "pkgs.xfractint: <https://www.fractint.net/>"
<infinisil> No description :/
<infinisil> Oh actually, an *empty* description
<cole-h> No/empty descriptions should be banned
<infinisil> (the function filters out packages that don't have a description)
<infinisil> And the homepage 404s!
<infinisil> Oh wait no
<cole-h> lol
<cole-h> That > got you, didn't it
<infinisil> Oh are you serious, why does my url clicker use https://www.fractint.net/>
<infinisil> Yup!
<cole-h> :^)
<infinisil> The <> are like a standard!
<cole-h> Alacritty doesn't have that problem for me ;^)))
<infinisil> Yeah alacritty works too, but I use weechat's urlselect script so I don't have to use the mouse for urls
<infinisil> Apparently that doesn't handle >'s correctly
<cole-h> Oh, heh
<cole-h> Yeah, my styurl plugin goes all the way to the closing " lol
<infinisil> "use_simple_matching" hah, the regex is twice as long as the "non-simple" one
<cole-h> lmao
<eyJhb> Reboot, still no dice. I can see the dataset in zfs list etc.
<cole-h> ((?:https?|ftp)://[^\s/$.?#].[^,\s]*) <- That's my url regex
<infinisil> > randomPackage = let inherit (r randomPackage') name value; in "pkgs.${name}: ${value.meta.description} < ${value.meta.homepage} >"
<{^_^}> randomPackage defined
<cole-h> lol
<infinisil> > randomPackage
<{^_^}> "pkgs.gppcscconnectionplugin: GlobalPlatform pcsc connection plugin < https://sourceforge.net/p/globalplatform/wiki/Home/ >"
<cole-h> That's a long pname
<infinisil> pggcsc reminds me of names like ncmpcpp or dhcpcd
<infinisil> Layers of abbreviations!
<eyJhb> Guess it is because of tmpfs
<bqv> I never get ncmpcpp right first time
<Valodim> try gppcscdconnectionplugin
<bqv> No thanks
<Valodim> once you know it's just globalplatform's "gp" and "pcscd" it's kind of ok :D
<infinisil> Should've been cppcscdcp
<infinisil> Should've been gppcscdcp*
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<lovesegfault> Does anyone know where I can buy those fancy fidget toys?
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