gchristensen changed the topic of #nixos-chat to: NixOS but much less topical || https://logs.nix.samueldr.com/nixos-chat
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<pie_> when you accidentally kill the outer instead of inner tmxu
<pie_> tmux
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<samueldr> when it kills itself
<pie_> thats also fun
<pie_> is there a way i can attach to the log output of running nix builds?
<pie_> i somehow hacked it into working by accident once by running nix while lorri is running
<pie_> but id like to do it not accidentally
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* ldlework just learned Zelda 2 Palace Theme on mandolin
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<eyJhb> Morning' everyone
<danderson> man, flakes are really tempting to play with, but it feels like I'm just a little bit too early still and I'll just destroy my system.
<danderson> anyone using flakes with nixos "seriously" yet?
<danderson> (seriously as in deploying important machines with it)
<danderson> hm, "just before I go to sleep" is a bad time to ask questions... oops
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<eyJhb> danderson: solution, no sleep :p
<manveru> ldlework: i was asleep already... i'm in CEST
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<aleph-> I should give flakes a look
<aleph-> Since I have a new server I can image...
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<emily> danderson: insofar as anything in my life is important, I wholly rely on flakes
<sphalerite> cransom: much to my surprise, now that I've clipped the 8-pin chip off my little light, all the lights still come on when I power the thing
<sphalerite> cransom: … and start cycling through colours
<emily> danderson: there's not much in the way of docs and you can run into random bugs/infelicities from using an unstable nix. other than that I've found it pleasant and basically equivalent to an integrated version of niv
<sphalerite> actually no, not cycling. Just a little unstable.
<gchristensen> emily: that is cool to hear
<sphalerite> ok, I think this is just because there are some floating things that shouldn't really be floating.
<sphalerite> Is that dangerous?
<sphalerite> (in the sense that it might break the components, not in the sense that it might kill me)
<sphalerite> (though if it might kill me I'd REALLY appreciate a warning)
<emily> "Zoom Acquires Keybase" RIP
<emily> (ok, maybe the cryptocurrency pushing was the RIP)
<gchristensen> what why
<emily> why what?
<gchristensen> why would they buy keybase
<emily> "and Announces Goal of Developing the Most Broadly Used Enterprise End-to-End Encryption Offering"
<emily> that part, I guess
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<gchristensen> O.o
<emily> I find it very hard to believe Zoom's business interests will forever remain aligned with what I'd want out of keybase, hence the "RIP"
<emily> I guess they're doubling down on security/e2e stuff after the bad press
<infinisil> :/
<emily> over their client doing nasty stuff and the e2e not actually being e2e
<gchristensen> just not sure keybase's encryption tools or experience are really aligned with their needs
<MichaelRaskin> They don't need tools, they need brand
<emily> gchristensen: yes, it is weird in light of all the ways keybase has been diversifying. well, the keybase chat thing is presumably something they'd be happy to engulf
<emily> the core "trustless key distribution" makes sense as having value to them though
<emily> if they want to be able to argue "true e2e, you don't need to trust us, use us for your most sensitive government communications"
<adisbladis> I really don't understand what keybase is
<emily> though conversely it's hard to imagine anyone wanting that also wanting to verify identity via reddit comments :P
<emily> adisbladis: it helps other people verify your cryptographic keys in a method different to the web of trust
<emily> instead of relying on other people's signatures, it tracks proofs on things like DNS records, other websites with accounts, etc.
<emily> so that you can independently (without trusting keybase) verify "whoever controls this key also controls foo.org, @blah on twitter, and reddit user /u/whatever"
<emily> they also have, like, e2e dropbox and e2e slack clone and some dodgy cryptocurrency integration built on top of all of that, but that's the core
<adisbladis> emily: I think it's all the non-identity stuff that confuses me
<emily> (this is actually more useful in practice than verifying based on government ID or whatever -- "this person controls coolsoftware.org, @CoolSoftwareOfficial on Twitter, and [PGP release signing key]" probably matters to you more than "this person is Bob Q. Floop who Wikipedia claims is CEO of Cool Software Inc.")
<adisbladis> Good reminder, time to renew my most important domain name
<emily> (the whole idea of web-of-trust key signing parties based on cursory inspection of rather-forgeable government IDs that don't contain any information relevant to what people actually trust the keys for is... one of the many signs of OpenPGP's pervasive cultural rot, in my opinino)
<emily> (you can't solve the key distribution/trust problem without an actual usecase/"threat model" in mind)
<adisbladis> emily: I'm well aware, this skind of stuff used to be my full time job ;)
<gchristensen> adisbladis: nixos.expert ?
<adisbladis> gchristensen: Indeed!
<emily> adisbladis: I think that is just "once you have a seamless relatively-trustless key distribution platform/CLI app you can integrate a lot of convenient stuff into it" + "also we need to make money so uhhh make random things"
<gchristensen> :)
<emily> like being able to drop stuff into /keybase/private/myname,someoneelse is pretty convenient in theory
<emily> though the actual quality of a lot of their tooling doesn't seem the best
<emily> sadly keybase is literally unusable because you can't store your key on a hardware token (I might have biased priorities)
<adisbladis> emily: Software keys are broken :) <3
<emily> I really want a hardware token that allows doing deriving arbitrary numbers of keys for encryption keys (with the same trick they use for U2F/FIDO2 to avoid storing them), having to deal with a very limited number of key slots is really limiting...
<emily> especially since e.g. you definitely don't want tap-to-approve on keys you're using for realtime chat decryption
<emily> (at least not without a huge timeout)
<adisbladis> I think at that point it becomes less secure
<adisbladis> Because you'll start paying far less attention to what you're approving
<emily> well that's why you want to keep your realtime chat keys separate to your filesystem root decryption keys or such
<emily> I don't know about you, but I don't think I could deal with tapping my yubikey every time a message comes in on IRC in the glorious hardware-token-backed-e2e-by-default future :p
<adisbladis> Btw, I really think it's about time we got a non-gpg & non-pkcs11 standard for interacting with keys..
<emily> similarly, "I want a different PIN for this specific chat" is totally reasonable, but not viable with the limited key slots of PKCS#11 / OpenPGP
<emily> yes :(
<adisbladis> emily: Totally scalable ^_^
<eyJhb> joepie91, adisbladis: would you still use `Authorization: Bearer ` for a nanoid?
<emily> I keep being tempted to hack up my own for fun and profit, but (a) I'm not so overconfident as to believe it wouldn't end up full of holes and potentially with people using it anyway, and (b) all the secure element/HSM/... options are either NDA'd or kind of crappy
<adisbladis> emily: I have this laying around somewhere
<emily> there's like one non-NDA'd chip you can get that supports ed25519, it's a laptop EC, those don't exactly have the best reputation
<adisbladis> It was a demo for a client at my previous job
<emily> you could go down to the fpga level and base things on like opentitan or whatever, but then everything is even more complicated and also nobody has bought me a big enough xilinx dev board yet :p
<adisbladis> emily: Hmmm, I do know someone with access to a lab that can make custom asics ;)
<emily> adisbladis: fwiw, FIDO2, for all its flaws, is pretty good on the authentication front I'd say
<emily> it just completely punts on decryption
<emily> I guess "CTAP" is what I mean there
<emily> the terminology is literally the worst
<adisbladis> I'll make my own chip, with ....
<emily> an open hardware HSM ASIC would be so cool
<emily> and also so impractical
<adisbladis> emily: Yeah, I'm pretty happy with FIDO2/webauthn
<adisbladis> emily: Impractical how?
<emily> I've heard too many horror stories about the big commercial HSM options to trust them at this point tbh
<emily> adisbladis: $$$, mostly
<adisbladis> emily: I know someone who can make custom chips for $ instead of $$$
<emily> I mean if you want to make a startup I'd love to see it!
<adisbladis> Hell no :P
<adisbladis> I know _nothing_ about chip design
<emily> inb4 your dodgy mafia asic fab contact backdoors the design
<emily> [security empire in ruins] "oh, adisbladis... you should know by now, everything has its price."
<adisbladis> =)
<srk> gotta roentgen the chips when they arrive :D
<adisbladis> Gotta join in the clean room
<emily> adisbladis: now's a good time to get in, there are finally end-to-end FOSS EDA toolchains and some not-entirely-awful HDLs!
<emily> mostly FPGA-focused right now, but people are working on the ASIC side of things
<srk> I've heard about a plan for one OSHW HSM few days (with maybe :))
<srk> *ago
<adisbladis> emily: Which ones do you have in mind?
<srk> yosis/icestorm/arachne-pnr/next-pnr probably
<emily> adisbladis: yosys + nextpnr + icestorm for ice40 fpgas, project trellis for ecp5 fpgas, and there's ongoing work by multiple eparties on xilinx, altera, gowin, ... support
<emily> HDLs: clash, nmigen, chisel, ...
<srk> you can do xilinxes already using parts of their ISE with yosis iirc
* srk haven't tried yet
<srk> clash!
<emily> yeah, yosys works well with the vendor toolchains for pnr
<srk> cool, I have this spartan 6 on armv7 laptop :)
<srk> can't even run the toolchain on it
<emily> there's also https://symbiflow.github.io/ which is google with the labels sawn off, they do some contributions to the stuff everyone uses and some NIH stuff nobody but them uses
<srk> emily: also sifive kami and bluespec
<emily> yes! I knew I was missing some
<emily> kami is very cool and bluespec is FOSS now too
<emily> keep meaning to play with the latter
* srk with the former
<srk> if I manage to figure it out :D
<emily> gchristensen: fwiw, here's the keybase people trying to justify it: https://keybase.io/blog/keybase-joins-zoom
<emily> adisbladis: incidentally the free software toolchains are often like, an order of magnitude faster and less buggy than the vendor ones despite being overgrown thesis projects or hobbyist efforts rather than having the backing of major $$$
<emily> this is mostly because the vendor toolchains are really awful though :p
<emily> EDA has been decades behind software engineering in terms of tooling and general standards, the FOSS work starts to bring it into the glorious 90s
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<adisbladis> Orange website discussion on nix today https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23087197
<srk> mm, clash also on the front page :D
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<eyJhb> Sheldom have I made something this ugly...
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<joepie91> eyJhb: nanoid is just a library that generates a CS-random opaque key; a bearer token is an opaque key; therefore Authorization: Bearer remains valid :)
* joepie91 uploaded an image: IMG_1505.JPG (4032KB) < https://pixie.town/_matrix/media/r0/download/pixie.town/UZstttkIMWFhdwclsjQqGiEr >
* joepie91 uploaded an image: IMG_1506.JPG (3372KB) < https://pixie.town/_matrix/media/r0/download/pixie.town/rumFPzAsaJFMCXxeoJVRLfQr >
<joepie91> next phase of component sorting is complete
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<cransom> sphalerite: yeah, floating inputs. it's fine here
<sphalerite> cransom: https://sphalerite.org/dump/rgb.mp4
<sphalerite> cransom: thank you very much for your help!
<sphalerite> cransom++
<{^_^}> cransom's karma got increased to 5, it's a crit!
<sphalerite> (todo: go home and use an esp32 instead of a pi)
<cransom> noooooice.
<cransom> there are libs too, you could tap into that infrared detector and look for ir codes
<sphalerite> ooh, I was going to say it's too late since I destroyed the chip that does it x)
<sphalerite> but yeah that might be good
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<cransom> did you tap into the resistors leading to the transistors or go direct?
<cransom> esps are pretty dainty for the current rating on output. without resistors, it may be too much of a draw
<sphalerite> oh no
<sphalerite> I've put hot glue over the contacts because they're so tiny and can't take any strain
<sphalerite> well, worst-case scenario I'll use a pi x)
<srk> ws28?
<cransom> simlar story there. you can inline a resistor on your wiring. i'd maybe be even more cautious on a pi just because it's way more expensive
<sphalerite> srk: no, some generic thing
<sphalerite> cransom: oh, heh, well it worked on this pi :p
<srk> ok :)
<sphalerite> cransom: oh yeah of course I can inline my own resistor x)
<cransom> shorter life span really. it's just good hygiene to limit current.
<srk> sphalerite: cool, saw the video already :)
<gchristensen> docbook is freaking slow even with a tiny project's docs like nixops
<sphalerite> this was originally a pac-man ghost lamp
<srk> was about to ask
<sphalerite> https://www.menkind.co.uk/pacman-ghost-lamp exactly this I think
<sphalerite> it was a massive pain to disassemble. So much violence.
<srk> now it's gonna be a CI fail indicator? :D
<sphalerite> srk: hm it could be! But I want to use it at home in the bedroom
<sphalerite> for warm light in the evenings and cold-light alarm functionality
<srk> ++ have one ws2812 strip for that as well
<sphalerite> ws2812 isn't addressable, right?
<sphalerite> But yeah I should get my hands on some of that too
<srk> and a lamp with both cold and warm bulbs I can switch with relays
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<srk> yep, ws2812 is great
<sphalerite> well, going afk now :) ttyl
<srk> but go straight for esp8266 or esp32 as they are pain to pi
<sphalerite> and thanks again cransom
<cole-h> worldofpeace: ofborg doesn't get the identity of the editor, only the comment author, which is why your edit to build/test on darwin didn't work on me that one time
<cransom> i've got a window with a string of ... 200? ws2812 leds that stay up year round for random holiday themes, driven by an esp8266. one other thing on a shelf, i made a https://github.com/marian42/pixelpi that's also fun.
<srk> cool! want to build one matrix as well for game of life
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<cransom> i've been wanting to add a few more leds and make the window do pixel art instead of random (but cool) patterns. haven't gotten around to order more of those yet though.
<FireFly> sphalerite: ooh nice blinkenlights
<eyJhb> joepie91: most places denote it as a cryptograhic key, etc.
<eyJhb> Just went for `X-API-Key`
<joepie91> eyJhb: they're wrong
<joepie91> eyJhb: the only thing that one might negotiate about is that `Authorization: Bearer` is defined specifically for OAuth rather than as a general-purpose header
<joepie91> but there's also nothing that prohibits one from using the same header type for non-OAuth stuff, and the idea behind a "bearer token" in general is that of an opaque string; and it being opaque rules out the "cryptographic key" definition, because if it's opaque, you're not allowed to care about what it represents :)
<eyJhb> Might change in the future, atm. I need to do some heavy code cleanup, because this is ugly as is...
<eyJhb> And then there is always the question of how generic ones clases should be :p
<joepie91> eyJhb: well that's the nice thing about an opaque key, it doesn't matter if you change its representation in the future :D
<joepie91> eyJhb: one should not write classes at all :P
<joepie91> (but I say that with my JS hat on)
<eyJhb> Well, it is called packages in Go, so. Packages :p
<joepie91> I don't know enough about Go to know what 'packages' really means semantically, but AFAIK Go isn't really designed to be very abstraction-capable in the first place so this doesn't really help matters :P
<joepie91> at least in JS, it is entirely reasonable to just never use classes at all, and treat functions/objects (and modules) as the base units of code
<joepie91> pure functions ideally
<danderson> emily: thanks! Good to know flakes are at least not entirely broken :)
<danderson> The two things that excite me about flakes: being able to commit an exact set of builds to git, for our corp use; and <1s eval, so no 10s hangups whenever you run a command <3
<cole-h> What
<evelyn> the forward-looking statements SEC disclaimer is half as long as the article again
<evelyn> Forward-looking statements in this communication include, among other things, statements about the potential benefits of the transaction, our development of our end-to-end encryption offering, our ability to integrate the Keybase team, and potential growth opportunities. In some cases, you can identify forward-looking statements by terms such as “anticipate,” “believe,” “estimate,”
<evelyn> “expect,” “intend,” “may,” “might,” “plan,” “project,” “will,” “would,” “should,” “could,” “can,” “predict,” “potential,” “target,” “explore,” “continue,” or the negative of these terms, and similar expressions intended to identify forward-looking statements.
<evelyn> says it all really
<gchristensen> that is pretty much always there afaik
<gchristensen> would you want to set a legal precedent based on what you're hoping to do?
<gchristensen> s/precedent/requirement/
<joepie91> cole-h: whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat
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<__monty__> In what jurisdictions is something like that binding in the first place?
<gchristensen> SEC filings are serious business
<__monty__> And they regulate intentions?
<gchristensen> they are telling you it is an intention
<gchristensen> that is what that disclaimer is saying
<danderson> The SEC requires very strict separation between binding claims you're making to shareholders, and stuff you're just saying
<danderson> that disclaimer is how they do it. It's even read out at the start of the earnings conference calls for most publicly traded company
<danderson> "Hi I see everyone's here, before we get started here's the SEC Safe Harbor agreement: <blah>. Over to you, <CEO>"
<danderson> doesn't help that the reporting requirements require C-suite to sign a thing that effectively says "I will go to prison if any of this is untrue"
<danderson> so they slap the "this is just words, I promise NOTHING" disclaimer on as much as they can :)
<gchristensen> :)
<worldofpeace> cole-h: sounds right
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<emily> cole-h: https://keybase.io/blog/keybase-joins-zoom makes it pretty clear it's an acquihire
<emily> I expect the keybase stuff to die :(
<emily> __monty__: public companies have to follow very strict rules about what they say, yes
<emily> they will happily go after your CEO for tweeting dumb things too (see elon musk)
<danderson> two government arms you don't want to antagonize: IRS and SEC
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<danderson> they'll be very helpful and nice if you're cooperative, and will absolutely ruin your life if you don't
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<gchristensen> truth. they were very kind and gracious back when I needed an income tax repayment plan. very helpful. A+ would coorporate again
<danderson> yup. As long as you're talking to them, they'll be happy to help and try to make something work.
<joepie91> danderson: sheesh. the IRS can be helpful and nice? that's much better than the Dutch tax authority then...
<joepie91> nightmare to interact with
<joepie91> I have legitimately gotten more useful tax advice from the chamber of commerce (company registry) here than from the tax authority's own helpline
<gchristensen> the IRS is like the "eye-for-an-eye" strategy. if you're nice and cooporate, they'll be nice and cooporate.
<danderson> the IRS deliberately maintains that attitude. If you're trying to follow the rules, they'll do their best to help and collect what they can
<danderson> the minute you stop cooperating though, they have a *large* arsenal they can point your way
<danderson> up to and including "we'll just contact your bank and help ourselves to your bank accounts"
<joepie91> danderson: the latter part is true in NL also. the former part is unfortunately mostly "call them until they give you the answer you want to hear, then you can claim that you were following their instructions"
<danderson> ouch
<gchristensen> fwiw I've not found it easy to get advice from the IRS
<gchristensen> the helpful and cooporative times were when I've messed something up
<danderson> oh yeah, same. If you need advice, you need to hire an accountant
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<colemickens> Oh Keybase, maybe the Stellar was a warning...
<cransom> someone commented, 'maybe we can use our stellar lumens to get > 40 minute zoom calls'
<ashkitten> i've never considered keybase worthwhile, being a centralized entity
<cransom> its not all that useful, but it has facillitated the longest lasting pgp key i've ever had.
<colemickens> Didnt some more-open alternative just get posted to HN in the last week?
<colemickens> I always thought it was cool and had a nice UI and never actually used it in practice for anything.
<danderson> "just use blockchain!" - someone who misses the days where pgp was impossible to use by non-believers
<ashkitten> i was made aware of this today: https://metacode.biz/@wiktor/
<danderson> It's a pity keybase couldn't find a sustainable way to continue. Associating with Stellar was a fairly clear sign that they were struggling and were up for money from anyone
<cransom> we use it as our slack backup and pgp key exchange
<adisbladis> danderson: But if you put blockchain in there you get that sweet investor money
<danderson> adisbladis: I just had some blockchain company try to pay me in "exposure", so it seems like the whole "fund people reinventing the gold standard" thing isn't working so well any more :)
<cole-h> danderson: And you turned them down?! wtf blockchain exposure is so worth it!!!!
<gchristensen> `make` people, is there a way to specify in my Makefile to always use `-L`?
<abathur> do they just put your email address in a transaction?
<ixxie> gchristensen: hmmm `make people`
<danderson> cole-h: unfortunately my local store lives in the past and doesn't accept exposure as payment
<adisbladis> danderson: That was happening to engineering companies like crazy under the blockchain boom :P
<cole-h> danderson: Wow, sounds like you should be looking for a new place to live
<cole-h> I pay for all my things in exposure!
<adisbladis> Every time I expose myself in the shop they call the police..
<eyJhb> adisbladis: sounds like you need some FREEDOM
<cole-h> adisbladis: lol
<eyJhb> Is any other countries besides Denmark going Bingo crazy?
<adisbladis> eyJhb: Sweden for sure
<adisbladis> Not in the same way as the danes though
<samueldr> isn't there a california law warning against exposure to blockchain?
<adisbladis> samueldr: When I was living in Hong Kong they had advertising on the tube warning people against investing in blockchain
<MichaelRaskin> No, they are still working on teaching rats enough maths that they can be studied for getting cancer from blockchain
<eyJhb> adisbladis: won anything yet then? :p
<danderson> samueldr: there's a Prop 65 bot on twitter for that: https://twitter.com/prop65bot
<samueldr> yep
<samueldr> tried looking to see if it already twote about blockchain
<samueldr> but couldn't get the twitter search to work
<samueldr> (or there really was no result for something with blockchain in it)
<danderson> fairly sure I've seen it tweet that blockchain is known to the State of California to cause cancer
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<abathur> I guess at some fraction of global emissions dedicated to mining it becomes debatably true? :)
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<adisbladis> eyJhb: Umm, when I was a kid?
<adisbladis> I haven't played it in ages
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<eyJhb> I just got forced to it, kinda fun!
<eyJhb> But no winnigns :( Need more kids so that I could have more cards things
<eyJhb> adisbladis: always have more kids! They most turn a profit at some point
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<ldlework> hello
<cole-h> The Feigenbaum Constant is crazy
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<ldlework> cole-h: I'm watching the wolfram working sessions
<ldlework> this is what i'm looking at right now, http://logos.ldlework.com/caps/2020-05-07-20-13-29.png
<ldlework> :P
<ldlework> they are trying to formalize the features of horizons in their model
<ldlework> it's so cool to watch them work things out in real time, just fucking around in mathematica
<ldlework> at times is funny, just because of how strange it seems
<cole-h> Head hurty
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<ldlework> it's actually really fascinating
<cole-h> The Logistic Map is such a beautifully simple equation that produces such beautiful chaos (after a certain point)
<manveru> ldlework: been watching them for a while, i don't understand even 10% of it, but it's always cool to see people do what they love, and i really like graphs :)
<ldlework> i think i watched a 3blue1brown
<eyJhb> Not sure if I am stubborn for using , for as decimal point, instead of .
<ldlework> manveru: yeah i'm with you. not getting everything, but enough to make it both entertaining and thought provoking
<ldlework> it's incredible just how much varied domain knowledge they have
<ldlework> they do that thing where they complete each other's thought
<ldlework> but it's subtle specific implications of general reletivity and stuff
<ldlework> lol
<ldlework> kinda ridiculous
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<ldlework> also fun is when wolfram can't figure out how to do a thing in mathematica (the language he invented) he just complains passive aggresively, and his team fetches a mathematica expert and gets them on the audio call lol
<ldlework> that must be so fucking awesome lol
<cole-h> Hahaha
<cole-h> I'd put that on my resume. "Yeah, I advised Wolfram on how to do something in the language he invented."
<ldlework> hahahaha
<qyliss> I think that's not uncommon with language creators
<ldlework> it's a library issue really
<ldlework> not a language issue
<qyliss> matz, the creator of Ruby, admits that he's not a very good Ruby programmer, because he spends most of his time writing C
<ldlework> mathematica has an absurd amount of functions
<ldlework> it's not realistic to expect wolfram to have internalized all of them
<ldlework> literally thousands upon thousands
<ldlework> which don't just range programmery things
<ldlework> but all kinds of scientific domain knowledge
<ldlework> that there exists a guy you can call who will know the function you're looking for
<ldlework> that's haha pretty impressive though
<ldlework> another funny thing
<ldlework> they'll know what they want to do
<ldlework> but not know how to express it exactly
<ldlework> and they'll spend 40 minutes trying various things
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<ldlework> and then they finally get the expression they're looking for and the graph finally pops up
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<ldlework> and they go "well what the hell is that."
<ldlework> lol
<ldlework> gets me every time
<cole-h> haha
<cransom> i used to chat a bit with freebsd kernel developers who in the kernel in super intimate ways, but could not run a system to save their lives.
<ldlework> Honestly, I think these working sessions are going to do a lot for Wolfram's public image.
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<eyJhb> cransom: isn't that the same for Linus?
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<ldlework> I really wish wolfram would use more variables and functions
<ldlework> him just copying and pasting and then tweaking values drives me bonkers
<ldlework> like he is often confused about which thing he needs from above, and will sometimes work with the wrong expression for like 20 minutes before they go "oh oh oh, this is the thing we need the distance matrix of. ah okay so here we go"
<ldlework> it's like argh just fucking name things lol
<manveru> mathematicians and naming...
<joepie91> cransom: unfortunately this can also have negative consequences... eg. TC39 (the JS standards board) seems to be far-enough removed from how people actually use and design things in JS, that they're making some very questionable decisions in the design of the language :/
<cransom> joepie91: extremely negative. architects and designers shouldn't be looking at the minutiae, they need the big picture. it's like executives who feel the need to micro manage.
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<joepie91> cransom: also, related rant with more detail about one particular such design decision: https://twitter.com/joepie91/status/1254368447250694146
<joepie91> but yeah, I agree
<evelyn> are you still at 36C3? :P
<eyJhb> joepie91: do you have any benchmarks on JS vs. eg. Golang?
<joepie91> evelyn: I will continue pretending it has never ended!
<joepie91> eyJhb: nope
<joepie91> I don't bother with benchmarks really
<joepie91> the only benchmarks that *might* tell you something useful, are those that implement complete real-world applications in multiple languages, and short of some "we migrated our codebase to a different language and this is the result" (which has its own issues) basically noone does that
<joepie91> all other benchmarks are non-representative microbenchmarks
<joepie91> in practice, JS is basically fast enough for everything that isn't computationally-bound, and that's all I need to know really :P
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<samueldr> am I wrong in assuming a bunch of what makes people think JS is slow is rather how browsers apparently can't manipulate DOM or "lots of text" efficiently? (as I observed myself)
<samueldr> I mean, it's probably "efficient", but it was the bottleneck in something I worked on
<joepie91> samueldr: that's part of it. probably a bigger part of it is that the JS most people interact with on a daily basis, including on big platforms, is so incredibly badly and inefficiently written that I'm not sure the developers know *anything* about performance (and this in and of itself might be fueled by the notion that "frontend dev is not real dev" and so the people writing this code never get to learn about good
<joepie91> practices of any kind)
<joepie91> JS has almost become synonymous with slow because of shit like Twitter
<samueldr> I think I agree with the latter part too, but I was kindly avoiding blaming the devs here :)
<samueldr> yeah
<samueldr> it's "bad application design"
<joepie91> which seems to need two seconds to load 300 bytes of text
<samueldr> whatever the language I can produce bad code!
<samueldr> even when I found out the browser was the bottleneck in rendering millions of lines of text, I initially assumed I was doing something wrong
<joepie91> samueldr: well it's not so much blaming the devs on a personal level, as pinpointing the issue (and like I said, this is probably caused by an environmental factor, not because the devs themselves are necessarily unwilling)
<samueldr> yep
<samueldr> I meant that I didn't want to veer into that discussiou as it's mostly a dead-end ;)
* samueldr should take some time to actually write the HTML-based DoS he theorised
<samueldr> discussiou? am I dyslexic? spin that u 180 degrees n now it's fine
<joepie91> well I dunno about 'dead end', it's not an unsolvable problem :P
<samueldr> maybe more dead end about where I wanted it to go
<evelyn> dyslexia is more common than one would think
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<samueldr> I just about stopped me from opening that into my main browser instance
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<joepie91> lol
<MichaelRaskin> joepie91: it might be unsolvable modulo solving many _clearly_ hard problems, I mean, if these devs were told — or even allowed — to spend development time on performance work, they would write less horrible code. If the criteria is hooking features…
<joepie91> well, it's mainly a culture problem
<joepie91> or well, a two-pronged culture problem
<joepie91> 1) "frontend dev" being considered a separate thing to begin with (it's just software dev in a browser!), and 2) "frontend dev" not being considered "real software development"
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<samueldr> neat-o, it kinda did what I hoped it did and it locked up my computer from being usable for a small while
<evelyn> yeah but you can pay people less for it
<evelyn> empolyers see it as for worker drones
<MichaelRaskin> joepie91: if you consider them real devs, then eat their brains about delivering features faster no matter the quality, you still get the exact same output than now
<joepie91> MichaelRaskin: that pressure exists outside of "frontend dev" too and it still *does* produce different results
<joepie91> it's not just a matter of time pressure, that's only one component
<joepie91> it's generally not even recognized as a responsibility in the first place
<joepie91> (compare to "yes I know we should do this, but we don't have time")
<MichaelRaskin> Backend features are harder to see to execs
<MichaelRaskin> And frontend doesn't routinely have to work to avoid data loss, so they don't get _that_ leverage
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<samueldr> meh, my PoC doesn't work on firefox, not sure if it even would work on non-X11... I can lock-up the session, but for like 30s without involving the user too much, at which point I don't know if it would even be considered a DoS...
<ldlework> huh