gchristensen changed the topic of #nixos-chat to: NixOS but much less topical || https://logs.nix.samueldr.com/nixos-chat
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<pie_> random ponderable https://12factor.net/
<joepie91> pie_: contrary to what it looks like, that is *not* a 'best practices' guide, but rather a 'this is how you're supposed to build stuff for Heroku' guide
<joepie91> one of the notable issues with it, is its recommendation of storing configuration (including credentials) in environment variables, which is a really bad idea from a security perspective (env vars are not considered secret, are inherited, and frequently leak) but is a recommendation that exists due to how Heroku's deployment system works
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<pie_> ok i didnt get that far with that train of thought but that was a bit head scratchy
<joepie91> (the correct storage mechanism for sensitive configuration is either a) an appropriately-permissioned config file like a config.json, or b) a tailor-made credential management system)
<joepie91> pie_: this is one of the handful of things that are very well-marketed as 'best practices' but that are actually service-specific guides and/or marketing props
<joepie91> another example of that is the "JAMStack", which makes no technical sense, and is basically just a way for Netlify to market their services
<pie_> never heard of that lol
<pie_> sounds like a sandwich
<samueldr> I don't know how "JAM" has gone through the marketing dept. considering traffic jams and such
<pie_> heh
<samueldr> or jamming something in something
<joepie91> another, older example of this is the "MEAN stack", which is MongoDB's marketing prop
<pie_> one more microservice should git just fine right...
<pie_> *fit
<pie_> just jam it in there
<joepie91> unfortunately this sort of marketing generally works very well, and is easily defensible as "they're just trying to help the community!" no matter how many errors there are in the recommendations
<pie_> my problem is finding errors for something like this is an open ended question
<joepie91> anyway. enough rant for today :) I should probably roll these two examples into my in-progress blog post about "stacks" and this sort of marketing
<pie_> like, if you have principles to compare against, that helps
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<pie_> but i still dont know what the runtime equivalent of nix is, as opposed to uhh...disk-time?
<pie_> spacetime
<joepie91> pie_: the tricky thing with these things is that they are often written to *sound* plausible to anyone who doesn't know the subject matter in-depth
<pie_> joepie91: i think thats what im trying to say
<joepie91> the most accurate heuristic I've found to detect these sort of untrustworthy 'best practices', is to see how well it explains the rationale for its recommendations, whether it addresses the criticisms/recommendations provided by others, and whether - if in doubt - the authors can defend their recommendations in good faith
<pie_> i kind of assume one is better off reading good academic papers
<pie_> but you know
<pie_> gotta find those too
<joepie91> once you're talking to the author(s), it usually becomes fairly easy to distinguish "they made a genuine mistake" / "they forgot to add a rationale" from "they are using shitty excuses to not have to address a criticism"
<joepie91> but ultimately, you're probably going to be dependent on people who do recognize the bullshit, writing angry ranty articles about how it's nonsense :)
<joepie91> (for anything you're not well-versed in yourself)
<joepie91> the upside is that these sort of marketing tactics are - for now - relatively rare
<joepie91> pie_: I mean, academic papers have their own problems of bias and bad science :)
<joepie91> just a (usually) better-functioning process for fishing out those cases
<pie_> hence the "good" qualifier 'xD
<pie_> but id _like_ to believe the incentives are somewhat less skewed :(
<pie_> i guess that makes sense re: process
<joepie91> pie_: dunno, they're pretty bad. basically, as a researcher, you don't want to be the one who writes the paper saying "we've found nothing"
<pie_> yeah....
<joepie91> so there's a strong incentive to write papers that find something, even if that something is pulled out of thin air
<pie_> joepie91: meta-marketing? :P instead of selling your product, shape the ecosystem so you win?
<joepie91> otherwise, you start risking your future funding etc.
<joepie91> pie_: I actually usually call it "ecosystem marketing", yeah
<joepie91> and that is basically how it works
<pie_> im pretty sure theres a technical economics term for this
<joepie91> shape the environment so that your product is the only logical conclusion
<joepie91> probably!
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<gchristensen> hmm looks like autotrim is a good thing to turn on
<gchristensen> (zfs)
<LnL> oh?
<gchristensen> https://vimeo.com/369887708 about 5:10:00 in
<tilpner> gchristensen: That graph says autotrim will make your zpool perform better, but AFAICT a reason frequently mentioned against autotrim is, that it'll eat through an SSDs lifespan
<gchristensen> right, the man page mentions this, too: Be aware that automatic trimming of recently freed data blocks can put significant stress on the underlying storage devices.This will vary depending of how well the specific device handles these commands. For lower end devices it is often possible toachieve most of the benefits of automatic trimming by running an on-demand (manual) TRIM periodically
<gchristensen> using the zpool trim com‐mand.
<tilpner> It probably makes sense if your workload is anywhere close to the scenario used in that video (copying kernel sources non-stop)
<gchristensen> however I wonder if other FS trim implementations issue trims every time a file is deleted? this isn't what zfs does
<tilpner> But a daily/weekly trim might just be enough for much less volatile workloads like a dev machine, with less life-eatin
<tilpner> *life-eating of your SSD
<tilpner> gchristensen: Right, I would consider differences in trimming strategies if that warning came from the fstrim or ext4 manpage
<ar> why would trimming shorten the lifespan of an ssd? it shouldn't zero-out the blocks, just mark them as free-to-reuse in FTL
<gchristensen> both of hese warnings are laden weasle-words. I wish there were some specifics. what counts as "lower end" (zfs) or "poor quality" (fstrim) devices
<tilpner> Yes, I agree. It's not clear that it would shorten lifespan
<tilpner> Again, it might make perfect sense for you to enable autotrim
<gchristensen> I think these warnings are bogus actually
<tilpner> But as I can't tell myself what the impact would be, and I don't have a very write-heavy workload, I just settle for weekly trim
<gchristensen> I say turn on autotrim and trust in the kernel to protect you https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux.git/tree/drivers/ata/libata-core.c#n4522
<tilpner> My device isn't listed there, and that could be because it's not "lower end"/"poor quality", or because nobody added it
<tilpner> Then again, of course an nvme disk is not listed in the ata blacklist
<gchristensen> :)
<tilpner> (And I may lose a little bit of confidence in the kernel protecting me, every time they automatically backport a major bug to longterm)
<gchristensen> lol yes
<gchristensen> anyway, it sounds like the fstrim scare words are basically saying it might wear out faster, not that it is actually doing something extra bad
<gchristensen> so if the onl yrisk is a bit of a slow-down ..... feels very safe to turn on.
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<ashkitten> zfs is cow anyways so if you're using snapshots it'll only free up blocks when the snapshots are deleted
<ashkitten> so it shouldn't matter since it'll batch the trims regardless due to the nature of the filesystem itself
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<gchristensen> infinisil, elvishjerricco: http://gsc.io/snaps/5c60eb8f-d2c8-45a4-b883-5dc703203d51.png disk write rate and snapshot frequency data. seems okay to me, especially when the HDDs being backed up to have a much longer write lifespan than the nvme in my laptops and servers which are all sending
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<Taneb> gchristensen: why do you ask about plugs?
<Taneb> (moving from -dev)
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<gchristensen> Taneb: oops, I thought I was in -chat :)
<gchristensen> I just hadn't seen any I don't think, and it is a nice idea to just have grounds for everything I think.
<adisbladis> gchristensen: Sometimes you'll even find power strips that don't have ground
<gchristensen> I was sort of expecting it to be law that everything be grounded
<adisbladis> gchristensen: In my parents old place they had the ground pin, but it was not connected anywhere
<gchristensen> nice
<gchristensen> some US houses are illegally done like that too
<adisbladis> This was not illegal, just old :)
<Taneb> Fun fact: the UK has a separate style of plug only for electric shavers
<adisbladis> The UK plug is full retard...
<adisbladis> I really dislike it
<Taneb> adisbladis: really? I quite like it
<adisbladis> It always falls on the floor with the pointy side up
<adisbladis> It's no more safe than the EU ones despite the annoying fuses that go off sometimes
<Taneb> The plugs in Italy always feel really unsturdy to me, like they could fall out at any moment
<gchristensen> you need it since it is just one enormous power loop :')
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<samueldr> the uk plug is the one with all the bell and whistles, security to the max, but lacks in the UX department
<samueldr> meanwhile, the north american plug is probably the best UX
<samueldr> but it is trivial to touch the prongs
<gchristensen> not sure that is good UX actually
<samueldr> the normal use UX
<samueldr> just slide it in
<samueldr> small
<samueldr> compact
<gchristensen> only slightly zappy
<samueldr> generally doesn't maim you
<gchristensen> lol
<samueldr> best UX when used as intended
<qyliss> app did not warn me about hurricane
<gchristensen> you in FL?
<qyliss> nono
<qyliss> I was referring to https://www.xkcd.com/937/
<qyliss> in regards to plug ux
<samueldr> ah, lol :)
<samueldr> also has an amazing track record in backwards compatibility (the north american plug)
<samueldr> IIRC, the only other plug used beforehand in north america was the light socket plug
<joepie91> samueldr: US plugs have much more sagging issues than schuko ("EU") plugs, I'd consider that a good reason why schuko plugs have better UX
<joepie91> more satisfying to plug in
<joepie91> even disregarding safety issues
<joepie91> and also generally a more obvious fit, ie. less "but is this the right one" doubt
<joepie91> note: specifically applies to schuko, not to the smattering of country-specific plugs that are kinda sorta maybe compatible but don't fit properly
<qyliss> I was impressed with the plugs in Switzerland
<qyliss> They can fit like 6 of them on a single wall panel
<joepie91> heh
<joepie91> "The standard defines a hierarchical system of plugs and sockets with two, three and five pins, and 10 A or 16 A ratings. Sockets will accept plugs with the same or fewer pins and the same or lower ratings."
<joepie91> nice
<Taneb> joepie91: Italy has their own standard but alsu uses Schuko. The sockets get pretty awe-inspiring
<leons> The only real world benefits of UK plugs are AFAIK the fuses, which allow thinner wires. The reverse polarity protection is nice, but you shouldn't rely on it as most electricians wiring up houses don't really care
<leons> Compared to Schuko
<__monty__> Anyone know why the common EU socket has the earthing pin off-center?
<gchristensen> :o
<__monty__> I've always wondered, most (all?) manufacturers don't bother putting two earth-pin holes on plugs so it forces right-angle plugs to cover other sockets often.
<__monty__> The springy bits on schuko sockets I've come across corroded which doesn't seem great when talking about conductance.
<leons> Never seen them corrode in my 20 years in Germany
<leons> __monty__ : Are you referring to the Type E? Then you would loose the nonstandardized and unused reverse polarity protection which it physically features. Oh no! </sarcasm>
<samueldr> off center to force live one way, neutral the other, generally
<samueldr> (assuming the wall plug is wired properly, always)
<samueldr> though many circuits can work the wrong way around, some will fail dangerously (even deadly) the wrong way around
<samueldr> (it's not the plug design's fault if the wiring is wrong)
<__monty__> What's that about actually? Don't understand AC well enough.
<__monty__> Is neutral the central conductor on a Y config?
<leons> samueldr: Something about full bridge rectifiers I don't really know anything about
<leons> Actually you can use Type-E plugs in the very common Schuko sockets without earth connected, but not Schuko in Type E (not assuming the combined plugs), which makes Schuko technically safer
<samueldr> leons: not everything is built using full bridge rectifiers :)
<leons> But most new plugs feature earth connections for Schuko and Type E, so it's basically irrelevant
<__monty__> leons: Except you can use schuko in unearthed sockets.
<samueldr> but yeah, those would be fine both ways, just like how here in north america we get non-polarized plugs for those
<leons> __monty__: I think Schuko sockets without earth are not allowed. For that you have euro sockets
<__monty__> The schuko wiki article mentions it as a drawback.
<__monty__> Basically they're equivalent afaict except schuko is reversible.
<leons> For devices not requiring earth (like hairdryers), which require more current than allowed on euro plugs, you'll have a shuko PLUG without earth, never seen a socket without earth before.
<leons> And that could also happen with Type E
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<andi-> gchristensen: /o\
<avn> adisbladis: Can I ask (returning to yesterday chat), what you use for interact with ttyUSB? (cu from uucp doesn't work correct, and is only one serial port tool I know well)
<gchristensen> I like picocom
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<cransom> typically in a pinch, i just use screen as it's already there
<cransom> screen /dev/ttysomewhere 115200
<adisbladis> avn: Mostly miniterm.py from pyserial (it's a cli program)
<adisbladis> picocom should be fine too
<avn> adisbladis: thanks, picocom looks fine for me ;)
<adisbladis> cransom: Most of my systems don't have screen :)
<gchristensen> tmux /dev/ttysomewhere 115200
<adisbladis> Wat
<adisbladis> I didn't know tmux also speaks serial
<adisbladis> But makes sense I suppose
<gchristensen> I made that up
<adisbladis> =)
<gchristensen> I assume it doesn't :)
<cransom> i tend to use tmux a lot. so, yeah, i suppose screen is just now my serial interface.
<andi-> avn: i like to use a proper cu: https://github.com/andir/nix-packages/tree/master/cu
<avn> andi-: why it not in main nixpkgs yet? ;)
<andi-> avn: it is a fork with heavily commented out features
<gchristensen> sigh yet another unannounced github outage
<cransom> we are feeling that too. noticed some webhooks were a few minutes behind.
<gchristensen> nice
<gchristensen> those crashes are due to github sending bogus data (and the evalutors designed to crash-and-restart, erlang-style)
<cransom> heh. and mbbx6spp trying to merge some very, very old prs and github is falling on it's face 'checking for conflicts'
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<infinisil> Yay I got my NVMe \o/
<infinisil> Now restoring my ~80GB backup from a server..
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<infinisil> I wish I didn't have all kinds of crap in this backup
<infinisil> Would be much smaller
<waleee-cl> eg ~/.cache/mozilla ?
<infinisil> Yea
<infinisil> Or all my ~/Downloads from firefox
<infinisil> waleee-cl: Or all the things compilers use as intermediate outputs
<infinisil> E.g. ~/.cargo, ~/.stack, ~/.cabal
<infinisil> Going through my files I'm also just noticing that telegram stores its cache in ~/.local/share/Telegram/../cache :/
<infinisil> Dear telegram, there's ~/.cache for the cache, please use it
<infinisil> Same for mozilla software too
<waleee-cl> cargo, stack & cabal, the unholy trifecta of accumlating GBs
<infinisil> Yeah..
<drakonis1> node also accumulates large amounts of data
<infinisil> I'll check it out more closely, currently running an ncdu over the data
<drakonis1> mozilla's cache usually accumulates 2gb
<drakonis1> you should backup your profile but not the cache
<infinisil> I'm lucky enough to not have to use node :P
<joepie91> I dunno about stack and cabal, but cargo accumulates data muuuuuuch faster than npm does in my experience, moreso when using rls
<waleee-cl> drakonis1: forgot the motherlode of course
<drakonis1> python enviroments also pile up data
<drakonis1> lots of duplication here.
<joepie91> (for Node, if this is a problem use pnpm instead)
<drakonis1> i have texlive and it eats up a cool half a dozen gigs
<infinisil> That lives in my nix store fortunately
<infinisil> (which I don't back up)
<drakonis1> it eats bandwidth
<drakonis1> every upgrade
<waleee-cl> joepie91: oh, nice. I don't do node stuff so regulary to keep up with all developements
<drakonis1> i have the full texlive packageset because i never know when i'll have to get more packages
<infinisil> Yeah that it does. For one of my projects using texlive I'm now manually adding each package if I need it instead
<infinisil> Much smaller
<infinisil> (starting with combined-small)
<drakonis1> i'd like to be able to install on demand
<joepie91> waleee-cl: it's fairly obscure even then, tbh. most developers just use npm or yarn
<joepie91> and pnpm has been around for years, but never quite got popular
<waleee-cl> isn't tectonic done with the premise of incremental (automatic) adding of packages?
<waleee-cl> * re: texlive
<drakonis1> no that's miktex
<drakonis1> miktex has a daemon that installs packages on demand when requested by the compiler
<drakonis1> texlive has a package manager
<drakonis1> but as far as i know, it doesnt install packages on runtime
<waleee-cl> * re: texlive discussion :)
<drakonis1> naet.
<drakonis1> neat.
<drakonis1> ah tectonic is available on nixpkgs
<waleee-cl> It was a bit buggy a while back though (~2 years ago when I tried it), but it may have improved
<drakonis1> i keep forgetting how it has every package under the sun
<infinisil> Oh boy, ncdu is done
<infinisil> Steam 10GB, I don't even use it anymore lol
<infinisil> (Rocket League being the main contributor to that)
<infinisil> 13GB of a series I put in my /home one time
<infinisil> And a bunch more things I could move out of /home, definitely some potential for smaller backups there
* waleee-cl hides my ~/videos under a stone
<waleee-cl> I always forget to do a separate data-partition
<joepie91> drakonis1: ... and several other federation planets
<drakonis1> is it too insane to want a nixpkgs sweep after flakes?
<drakonis1> nixpkgs 2.0
<infinisil> +1 from me!
<drakonis1> maintain the old one and transition everything to the new model
<joepie91> 'sweep'
<joepie91> ?
<drakonis1> start over
<drakonis1> a flake for the new one and a flake for the old one
<drakonis1> the new packages should be cleaned up and done again
<drakonis1> have a measure of quality at least
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<drakonis1> we have almost every package but the level of quality varies quite a lot
<joepie91> ah, right
<drakonis1> so a reset in the form of a new nixpkgs would be nice.
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<avn> Folks, -- `qt.qpa.plugin: Could not find the Qt platform plugin "xcb" in ""` any thoughs how to bypass it? (picocom not give results, hw vendor tell I must use cutecom, but it doesn't work)
<infinisil> avn: #nixos is the channel to ask :)
<averell> and #65399
<{^_^}> https://github.com/NixOS/nixpkgs/issues/65399 (by ttuegel, 14 weeks ago, open): Tracking issue for wrapQtAppsHook
<joepie91> drakonis1: question is, do we actually have sufficient quality guidelines and processes to end up with a better result? :)
<joepie91> the current state of nixpkgs does exist for a reason
<drakonis1> we can make one, cant we?
<infinisil> joepie91: I'd mainly try to redesign how mkDerivation works
<infinisil> And different package builders and package sets
<infinisil> And overriding
<joepie91> drakonis1: oh, sure, just saying that that'd be a dependency for a (useful) rework of nixpkgs
<drakonis1> we have a lava layer problem atm
<avn> infinisil: and interning of attr names in nix itself
* avn hides
<joepie91> (I'd be happy to contribute to that, though I can't drive the effort atm, too many commitments)
<infinisil> Would certainly need an RFC
<infinisil> Which almost certainly would be rejected :)
<averell> it also might get rid of a ton of old unmaintained packages
<averell> i wish cache data was more public for some popularity stats
<drakonis1> move all unmaintained crufty crap to a flake
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<joepie91> the flaky flake?
<joepie91> nixpkgs-flaky
<drakonis1> hmm
<drakonis1> yes
<drakonis1> that'd be perfect :V
<drakonis1> please read the the three lines with a pause in between
<joepie91> :P
<joepie91> we need 'pause' marks on IRC
<samueldr> we have them
<samueldr> "lol"
<avn> averell: we need some mechanisms to soft-deprecate packages (otherwise you will maintain forever stuff which you used 2 jobs ago)
<samueldr> why the heck am I receiving advertorial spam from firefox?
<infinisil> samueldr: What is it?
<averell> ah, not just me :)
<samueldr> >> Keep that weird thing you searched for private Inbox
<samueldr> >> You're receiving this email because [...] has a Firefox account and is subscribed to Firefox Account Tips.
<samueldr> no
<samueldr> someone set up the wrong default in their spam campaign
<infinisil> Huh, that kind of really sounds like a scam mail
<samueldr> it's a real deal genuine e-mail...
<samueldr> ... that sounds like crap
<infinisil> BILLION
<samueldr> 5 crazy ways you wouldn't believe you get tracked by on the INTERNET
<samueldr> ad execs hates them
<infinisil> Click Here Now To Not Be Tracked Anymore!
<joepie91> sheesh, did they hire the Demand Progress spamwriters?
<__monty__> Maybe opt-out's their new default policy : >
<__monty__> (Yes I went there and made a DoH joke.)
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<infinisil> When restoring zfs backups, don't forget yer -s on the zfs recv :)
<infinisil> (that allows you to resume sends when the connection failed midway)
<__monty__> Would want a zf backup.
<__monty__> *wouldn't
<infinisil> Why that?
<__monty__> -s : >
<infinisil> I guess it would be nice if it was enabled by default
<infinisil> But overall zfs is very good for backups
<gchristensen> zfs -s -> zf
<infinisil> Ahah lol
<infinisil> This time in /r/whoosh
<__monty__> r/whooh you mean?
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<__monty__> nn, peoples
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