gchristensen changed the topic of #nixos-chat to: NixOS but much less topical || https://logs.nix.samueldr.com/nixos-chat
<pie_> sooo...nix-on-droid lets me use taskwarrior on my phone
<pie_> not sure where that gets me and typing or horrible
<pie_> but yay?
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<{^_^}> #73192 (by pasqui23, 4 days ago, open): nixos-shell:init at 2015-05-23
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<tilpner> __red__: I think there might be a few people interested in seeing your module for that
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<Twey> clever: Are you working on IOHK?
<clever> Twey: yeah, ive been with iohk for over 2 years
<Twey> clever: May I ask what you're on/what it's like? It looks like a pretty interesting group
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<clever> Twey: i'm on the devops team, dealing with CI and maintaining the servers in aws, and nixops is a must
<Twey> clever: Are you UK-based? Or remote?
<clever> Twey: atlantic canada, and remote
<__monty__> IOHK's 100% remote, no?
<clever> __monty__: yeah, pretty much everybody is remote
<Twey> Neat
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<__monty__> Let me know when IOHK starts looking for juniors.
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<aleph-> clever: How is nixops in production?
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<ashkitten> is nixops particularly helpful for single servers? i just mostly want a tool to let me test config changes on my server without having to edit it on the server end
<cransom> imo, no. `nixos-rebuild --target-host <somewhere else>` is plenty.
<ashkitten> oh i didn't realize that was a thing either
<ashkitten> ty
<cransom> --build-host and --target-host if you wanted to build somewhere else as well
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<infinisil> Well damn
<__monty__> Hot damn! : )
<infinisil> I wanted to figure out how many kbps I need for opus so I couldn't distinguish it from original flac quality
<__monty__> It's super small, right?
<infinisil> So I wrote an AB-test script, did a bunch of measurements
<__monty__> 64 or less?
<infinisil> I can distinguish 160kbps from flac..
<infinisil> Oh wait!
<infinisil> Hold up
<adisbladis> It's pretty good
<__monty__> SWEET, if you decline their cookies you get pure html : D
<infinisil> I made a mistake in my script, I did `--gain 15` for opusdec (to convert it to wav), but that clips loud noises!
<__monty__> Why would you convert it *to* wav?
<infinisil> But if I don't do that, my flac file is so much louder than opus, which is obviously detectable
<__monty__> Gain just obviously distorts sound though.
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<__monty__> Maybe try ffmpeg for the encoding?
<infinisil> __monty__: Convert flac -> opus -> wac/flac, then I use the same player to play the files
<infinisil> More uniform
<infinisil> It's also what https://www.opus-codec.org/examples/ does
<infinisil> adisbladis: I'll check it out
<adisbladis> Shameless plug for transcoding: https://github.com/adisbladis/bulkrecode
<__monty__> Is that a fair comparison though? The resulting flac could be way bigger.
<adisbladis> (it's just a python script that shells out to ffmpeg)
<infinisil> __monty__: They're all about 15MB
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<__monty__> Ah, the plain html version doesn't have the quiz : /
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<infinisil> I still like my script more, can choose my own songs :)
<infinisil> adisbladis: Oh but that has only uncompressed, mp3 320 and 128
<infinisil> I'm trying to figure it out for opus :)
<__monty__> I barely hear a difference between 64Kbps opus and flac. Still store flac though.
<adisbladis> infinisil: Ahh :)
<adisbladis> __monty__: Regardless flac is a better archive format
<adisbladis> Transcode to anything \o/
<infinisil> Do I need that though?
<infinisil> Takes up a lot of space
<adisbladis> infinisil: I store in flac on my file server and vorbis on all playback devices
<adisbladis> It's not that much space, even a 1T drive can fit almost all my music
<infinisil> Yeah I'm also choosing flac as storage whenever available, opus playback through http stream
<__monty__> Why vorbis? Compatibility? Most things play opus now, no?
<adisbladis> __monty__: Because for music fidelity opus may or may not be better than vorbis
<adisbladis> And vorbis "just works"
<adisbladis> Also I've been using vorbis for close to 15 years now :)
<adisbladis> Force of habit
<__monty__> Yeah but opus is newer, so obviously you have to shun vorbis.
<infinisil> ALright I fixed my script
<infinisil> Had replaygain tags on the input file
<infinisil> Alright, gonna test 16, 32, 64 and 128 kbps opus vs flac now
<__monty__> Pastebin it so we can critique the approach if the results aren't what we want them to be >: )
<adisbladis> infinisil: I'm curious what gear you have :)
<adisbladis> Fellow nixos audiophiles unite!
<__monty__> Also wonder why you don't throw in aac for example?
<infinisil> Hehe my setup is horrible, I'm just using my gaming headset to listen
<infinisil> __monty__: I don't really care about aac :P, I think opus is the future
<__monty__> And you can *still* hear a difference? Are you randomizing?
<adisbladis> infinisil: At higher bitrates it's highly gear dependent if I can hear any difference
<adisbladis> infinisil: The quiz I sent you I can only get full score on my IEMs & one of my open backs
<adisbladis> A lesser pair of open backs are not revealing enough
<infinisil> Here's the script if you want to play along: https://paste.infinisil.com/CC6STBIjHw
* samueldr encodes at 56kbps to steam from a boopy-doop-beep modem
<infinisil> Call it with a .flac file as an argument
<samueldr> to stream*
<gchristensen> how about those audiophile-grade SATA cables
<adisbladis> gchristensen: Aww yiss
<gchristensen> I hear it is the most important cable you're not using https://jcat.eu/audiophile-sata-cable/
<adisbladis> gchristensen: Hmm, there must be an untapped market for audiophile grade nvme
<__monty__> samueldr: Would that work with VBR codecs though?
<samueldr> no idea, haven't researched the subject matter enough for a quick quip on IRC
<infinisil> Wait remove the --pure from the script, it can't connect to pulseaudio if you don't
<drakonis__> is this satire
<samueldr> no, it's SATA-re
<adisbladis> :D
<adisbladis> Drakonis__: Welcome to the world of high end audio
<adisbladis> Where nothing makes sense
<__monty__> When are we getting ECC cables though?
<drakonis__> 250 euros
<drakonis__> jfc
<samueldr> ethernet cables with an arrow for the right data flow direction
<adisbladis> samueldr: You must turn it off before unplugging so the bits dont fall out
<samueldr> don't forget the split USB cables, so data and power do not travel parallel
<adisbladis> samueldr: Is that a thing?
<samueldr> yes
<gchristensen> it is not satire, but it is a joke
<drakonis__> there are people that actually bought this
<drakonis__> tf
<samueldr> audiophile gear is...
<samueldr> it just is
<__monty__> Airgap your USB cable : )
<gchristensen> USB data-diode maybe
<adisbladis> samueldr: Suddenly I feel like a bad audiophile :)
<samueldr> oh oh oh
<tilpner> gchristensen: Did you not see my pings, or did you see them exactly when I was offline (I was offline lots today)?
<samueldr> you know
<samueldr> gold plated
<gchristensen> tilpner: I saw your pings and asked {^_^} to ping you back :P
<adisbladis> USB chain is: Computer -> monitor (hub) -> soundcard
<samueldr> optical
<adisbladis> How can I live like this?!
<samueldr> adisbladis: you're gonna get images bleeding all over your sound
<adisbladis> Crap
<adisbladis> How to throw more money at the problem
<samueldr> (though those gold plated cables are not audiophile cables... since they're cheap)
<__monty__> infinisil: Rather than picking two random elements and comparing why not files[$i] and files[1-$i]?
<infinisil> __monty__: Yeah that's an idea
<infinisil> Though it's also interesting to know whether you can detect bigger differences
<__monty__> Handcrafted using the mix of purest silver & gold alloy with silver copper conductors in special geometry
<__monty__> Ah, yes, that ArCu metal. They used that in Avengers, right? Sounds legit.
<drakonis__> audiophile woo
<__monty__> infinisil: Ah, thought you were doing just two at a time.
<__monty__> What have your results been? Is it just low - flac?
<__monty__> Or are there surprises like 16 is better than 90?
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<infinisil> __monty__: I did once have a 64kpgs > flac
<infinisil> But often I can also detect flac > 128kpgs
<infinisil> s/g/p
<infinisil> Gotta do some more tistng
<infinisil> testing
<__monty__> I wonder whether enc/dec is lossy twice?
<infinisil> decoding opus to wav shouldn't be lossy
<__monty__> Sure, *shouldn't*.
<drakonis__> decoding flac shouldnt be lossy either
<infinisil> This is hard..
<infinisil> Trying with bitrates 64 96 128 160 now
<infinisil> Two times in a row it showed me 96 vs 128. One time I said the former is better, another time the latter -.-
<infinisil> (well that's the point of ab testing I guess, but still!)
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<__monty__> You should add a third option "idk" and test AA so you can see whether you're guessing a lot.
<infinisil> I do have that option, but I just never feel the need to use it
<infinisil> I can always find a tiny thing that seems better in one of them
<infinisil> So I think I'll just to a whole bunch of tests, then look at the probabilities
<__monty__> Then do the AA tests so you can see whether that's really hearing a quality diffence or just bias.
<infinisil> How would that work?
<infinisil> I mean with an AA test I know I'll choose either of them 50% of the time
<__monty__> That's why you need that third option.
<__monty__> If you don't use it you're unreliable.
<__monty__> If you use it a *lot* you don't hear a significant difference.
<infinisil> We're humans that's what we do!
<infinisil> I can just look at the probabilities of the AB tests, if I have 50% for two samples, I can't distinguish them
<infinisil> The further away from 50%, the more distinguishable
<__monty__> Sure but you need a lot more samples.
<__monty__> Maybe you could come up with a score, where you take into account the probabilities and the size of the files.
<__monty__> Definitely needs some hypothesis tests : )
<infinisil> __monty__: Gotta randomize the bitrates themselves!
<infinisil> Or not randomize
<infinisil> But like, smartly select bitrates to find exactly the point at which it becomes indistinguishable
<infinisil> Something that would be called probabilistic binary search
<__monty__> We need game theory up in here!
<__monty__> Have the computer trie to "shortchange" you. It wants to give you the lowest bitrate it can get away with : )
<infinisil> Hehe yes
<infinisil> Every day it reduces bitrate by 1kbps until you notice
<infinisil> But maybe for deciding which is better, it should be like a slider, where you can say how much better one is than the other
<infinisil> I guess this also solves my "but I feel like this one is a tiny bit better"
<infinisil> Or maybe implement a timeout too: If you haven't decided within 30 seconds, they feel the same
<infinisil> That would be an interesting project tbh
<__monty__> Oo, you should get it to switch back and forth within a song.
<__monty__> If you don't notice it's switching you can't tell the difference.
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<infinisil> __monty__: Yeahh
<infinisil> Didn't know how to do that with mpv unfortunately
<aanderse> i joined office hours meeting but it hasn't started... just me?
<drakonis__> no meeting apparently
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<LnL> I wish we had a non convoluted way of doing things like this, instead of having to maintain a git branch https://gist.github.com/LnL7/d150e9dd10f3e226971419abada7e9ff
<gchristensen> ouch
<infinisil> LnL: How about using the patched nixpkgs directly/
<infinisil> (Can't do that in configuration.nix though)
<LnL> that's what I meant, I think it would be really nice if nixpkgs could be customized in some way
<LnL> not necessarily from configuration.nix but rather nix-channel (ie. flakes?)
<infinisil> Oh yeah I think this was one of flakes goals actually
<LnL> I've not been following it closely enough to know if this would fit in
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<eyJhb> Can anybody remember the word for when you combine everything at once, and pray that it works, instead of testing each individual module ? (software development)
<eyJhb> I remember there is SOME word for it, but I am not sure what it is
<samueldr> holistic?
<samueldr> >> characterized by comprehension of the parts of something as intimately interconnected and explicable only by reference to the whole.
<MichaelRaskin> monolith?
<eyJhb> Might just be my professor at uni that called it something like, chaotic testing, etc.
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<__monty__> I'd call it the Yenga model of construction. Build something, poke at it, layer things on top for as long as you can balance it.
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<clever> aleph-: main nixops issue is trying to deploy over 100 machines at once
<aleph-> Nod, over SSH right? So slow?
<gchristensen> it tries to evaluate nixos 100 times, requiring gobs of ram
<aleph-> Ahhhh
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<tazjin> I hacked together this thing to automatically import a repository layout into an attribute set: https://github.com/tazjin/depot/blob/master/read-tree.nix
<tazjin> it's part of my monorepo-with-nix tooling investigation
<gchristensen> oh cool, tazjin
<tazjin> a better way to read what is going on there is probably the PR description: https://github.com/tazjin/depot/pull/9
<{^_^}> tazjin/depot#9 (by tazjin, 21 minutes ago, merged): Configure automatic package layouts via repository structure