gchristensen changed the topic of #nixos-chat to: NixOS but much less topical || https://logs.nix.samueldr.com/nixos-chat
<infinisil> A bit more about what the failure looked like today: Random occasional freezes, which got worse over the course of maybe 10 minutes until I almost couldn't do anything anymore
<infinisil> I checked out my zpool, which it told me was FAULTED, with too many errors, I saw the error count go up to the 100-200 mark
<infinisil> I think dmesg showed some ATA errors
<infinisil> This is the error I'm always seeing: https://paste.infinisil.com/nOIx7noTag.jpg
<infinisil> ivan: Oh and my SATA controller shouldn't be problem, because my HDD is connected via SATA as well I think
<infinisil> (yeah it is, I couldn't have switched the SSD's cable if it wasn't)
<infinisil> NVMe ordered, I'll finally join y'all with your fast disks!
<infinisil> I'll just have to use my laptop until then, can't be bothered restoring all my data to the HDD when I'll just move it to the NVMe in a couple days
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<ivan> infinisil: SSD requires more bandwidth and IOPS
<infinisil> Ah I see, maybe I'll see if I can test this somehow
<ivan> infinisil: sometimes motherboards have a good SATA controller and a bad SATA controller
<ivan> the good one is more likely to be with the bigger cluster of ports closer to the CPU
<ivan> (or the SSD could be bad, but you know that)
<infinisil> ivan: as far as i know i only have a single cluster of 4 ports
<infinisil> And apparently one SATA express somewhere
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<ar> infinisil: sata express typically reuses sata ports
<ar> infinisil: you probably have a smaller square port next to the sata port
<ar> +s
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<andi-> GitHub shows me comments from the future.. "in 40 minutes". Very interesting
<MichaelRaskin> Maybe your local clock or timezone is off
<gchristensen> probably continued confusion from last night's daylight savings time shift
<andi-> MichaelRaskin: my local analog wrist watch shows the same time as my computer and my phone.. I guess that rules my local clock out :-)
<andi-> Why isn't GitHub just using UTC? Being confused by DST sounds silly
<andi-> Probably is harder then expected.
<gchristensen> probably started with America/San_Francisco and never got around to switching it
<gchristensen> (no idea... tumblr was on America/New_York :):):):))
<andi-> I also never got why people use their local locale on a remote server on the other side of the planet... You should just use en_US & UTC.
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<andi-> Might be nostalgic but when I started with computers your locales error message didn't bring up any search results..
<andi-> gchristensen: it is confusing seeing you on IRC at this early time. It feels wrong :P
<gchristensen> :D
<eyJhb> Yup, I am screwed tomorrow. Got up at around 10, feel very very tired... So will be great getting up at 05.30/06.00 :(
<eyJhb> andi-: there are many things that are annoying with time, UTC would make sense. Following more weird US standards is a no-go for me
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<srhb> mumblemumble znc mumblemumble
<srhb> Did we have some contact for NixOS cloaks?
<eyJhb> srhb: znc not playing well?
<eyJhb> I remember we talked about it, but that was about it...
<__monty__> srhb: Yeah, gchristensen handles that afaik.
<srhb> Not sure why it broke this time, but I think I'll leave it broken. :P
<srhb> __monty__: Ah, thanks :)
<eyJhb> So just given up on the znc srhb ? :p I have a somewhat simple config if you would like
<srhb> I'm annoyed with design decisions in the software, not configuration as is. Thanks though :P
<eyJhb> What kind of design decisions are you talking about? :p
<__monty__> srhb: Maybe a matrix home server'd be more your thing?
<eyJhb> Noooooooo, do not join the dark side
<__monty__> eyJhb: But matrix has a really cool low latency protocol.
<srhb> It's opinions on mutations for one
<srhb> But whatever, it's dead now, and I'm happy with its demise.
<__monty__> Your server or the project?
<eyJhb> __monty__: I would expect the matrix+IRC Bridge to have more latency than pure IRC
<eyJhb> Thinking the ZNC have been killed off
<srhb> __monty__: My server :P
<eyJhb> Oh, so close!
<__monty__> eyJhb: No, I know, the current home server implementations leave a *lot* to be desired.
<eyJhb> Does Matrix have some nice mobile apps so far? Because that is the only thing I am missing from IRC
<infinisil> Riot is kind of ehh on iOS
<infinisil> eyJhb: I think RiotX just released on Android though, which is a complete redesign
<eyJhb> There is riot.im and riotx
<eyJhb> But riotx is basically just the beta of the other, right infinisil ?
<infinisil> Hm I guess it's not released after all, but I've heard good things about it already
<leons> Oh wow, didnt know theyve released RiotX as an early access yet
<infinisil> eyJhb: It's a total rewrite, making improvements all around as far as I know, I'd give it a go
<infinisil> I don't have android so I can't say more than what I heard
<leons> Just installed it, using it for this message, super snappy so far :O
<eyJhb> Whooo :D
<eyJhb> I am wondering if I can replace my messenger app with something that integrates with my IRC server, as I use bitlbee anyways
<eyJhb> Would be nice!
<leons> Everything seems about 10x faster, maybe that's why its called RiotX ^^
<infinisil> Hehe, it's probably made by 10x devs too
<infinisil> I'm really wondering how good Chatty will be, the riot client they make for the Librem 5
<leons> It actually has a useful home screen showing rooms with new messages, and a usable search for rooms ...
<__monty__> eyJhb: Ah, I meant low *bandwidth* rather than latency, though ofc there *is* a correlation. Slides: https://matrix.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/2019-02-03-FOSDEM-Low-Bandwidth.pdf Fosdem presentation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZBvy4abB1o
<__monty__> This actually sounded like the future of chat.
<__monty__> It literally has the power to connect the world.
<__monty__> IRC is close ofc but losing out on what's said is really annoying on spotty connections.
<eyJhb> leons: trying to keep everything KISS on my mobile, e.g. I use KISS Launcher, and I love it :D
<eyJhb> Yeah..
<leons> Considering the usual _chat protocol handshake issue_ on conferences etc, for me it actually resolves to Matrix more often than WhatsApp and the like now. Its amazing
<leons> eyJhb: Oh, just now got what you meant to say. I'm referring to the in-app main screen, sort of like a RiotX dashboard
<leons> Actually, let's try sending a screenshot to a bridged IRC room, what can go wrong
* leons uploaded an image: IMG_20191103_12204-1.jpg (31KB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/is.currently.online/IdZJMsnRIYFTkujGqIpzaMGK >
<eyJhb> Ohh, nice :D
<eyJhb> I wonder how well it works with Bitlbee+Facebook
<eyJhb> I might die
<__monty__> leons: If it's already better than whatsapp then the future must be bright. I don't think they've actually using the low bandwidth protocol yet.
<eyJhb> It's fun when we talk about low bandwidth protocols, etc. and then we have things like Slack + Discord that just takes all the ressources in the entire world to run, and I might be wrong, not very optimised in general
<__monty__> You're not wrong.
<__monty__> Riot's like that too.
<leons> Actually, I've got an excellent blog post on that: https://tonsky.me/blog/disenchantment/
<eyJhb> One of the reasons I like using IRC, is that is it lightweight, doesn't require much, is snappy and easily navigated using VIM shortcuts (Weechat + VIMode). If I run messenger in browser it just uses more and more memory
<__monty__> I also hate the usual argument "Hardware's cheap anyway bruh, why should I even care about such old junk?" Well, I'm in a first-world country running a pentium, how do you suppose third-world inhabitants are supposed to get their hands on these "cheap" (i.e., multi-month wages) devices?
<__monty__> Also love the usual argument that "IRC's too hard, ergo discord's just better."
<leons> IMHO Matrix isn't on par with WhatsApp regarding performance, and never will be on par with IRC, but it has potential. AFAIK the protocol is fine, it's just the clients that suck (and get better)
<__monty__> Sure, but only if you have the luxury of expecting everything to be a couple clicks of effort. Most of the world doesn't have that luxury.
<eyJhb> `Modern text editors have higher latency than 42-year-old Emacs. Text editors! What can be simpler? On each keystroke, all you have to do is update a tiny rectangular region and modern text editors can’t do that in 16ms. ` I have experienced this crap with Atom... Writing applications like webapps (Electron) really sucks performance wise. I hate all these Electron applications, because I know
<eyJhb> they will eat up everything they can
<qyliss> Text layout is haaard, fwiw.
<leons> monty: But yes, we're wasting to many resources just cause it's cheaper to glue huge and inperformant software stacks together. The solution(TM) will be technology, which is pretty high level but nonetheless very optimised (e.g. Rust). Manual optimization is often not required if you're not building things on a huge pile of crap
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<qyliss> Modern text editors could be better than they are, but it's not fair to simplify it that much.
<__monty__> You can write performant software in JS.
<__monty__> Not fair to blame this on Electron. I've had this discussion before.
<__monty__> joepie91'll tell you what's up.
<eyJhb> qyliss: It isn't at all, but some editors are so slow and still become popular. E.g. Sublime Text is quite fast, but I would never use Atom because of how slow it is in general, and the boot time...
<eyJhb> __monty__: but it is a easy gateway to write terrible things, which is mostly what I have seen so far
<leons> __monty__: It is a very philosophical discussion, and you can't blame it on one technology or one decision, but it's tempting to do so
<eyJhb> leons: easy! Blame it on people
<eyJhb> :D
<eyJhb> Those guys suck!
<leons> :)
<eyJhb> This blog post just reminds me, that I have to track down dependencies in my code..
<eyJhb> Because X library depends on Y for some reason altso Z and ABCDEFG, but I only use it to parse command line arguments
<eyJhb> Hate it. So my binaries are over 15mb in size. Could probably be only 5MB or so
<gchristensen> srhb: want a cloak?
<srhb> gchristensen: Yes please. <3
<infinisil> ,cloaks
<{^_^}> Ping ${"gchris" + "tensen"} if you'd like to get a nixos/user cloak. Read https://nixos.wiki/wiki/IRC:Cloaks for instructions.
<{^_^}> infinisil: Did you mean cloak?
<__monty__> Ah, eyJhb, here's a demo of joepie91's that shows performant UIs could be possible: http://cryto.net/projects/jsde/demo/
<eyJhb> I somehow feel like we will see a JS Os at some point now
<eyJhb> I am so close to starting a while True loop, just so I can break the flow without doing anything return related
<eyJhb> Ohh no...
<eyJhb> Well, that just seems like a VNC connection to a OS?
<manveru> nope
<eyJhb> That's pretty cool!
<manveru> fabrice is the guy behind ffmpeg and qemu... he's done so much cool stuff :D
<leons> Holy ..., it uses a WebSocket VPN for the virtual nic?!? ^^
<leons> Wondering whether I should be amazed or terrified that Windows 2000 runs so smooth
<eyJhb> Not SO smooth for me
<manveru> someone wrote an actual OS in js... kinda
<leons> I can't really see a difference between qemu software emulation and the JS thing on my mobile i5
<qyliss> Fabrice's new JS interpreter is awesome too
<eyJhb> leons: generation?
<eyJhb> qyliss: which?
<qyliss> QuickJS
<leons> eyJhb: Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-8265U CPU @ 1.60GHz
<qyliss> It can create native executables for JS code!
<qyliss> The code is still interpreted at runtime, but it's a cool way to distribute programs
<manveru> neat :)
<eyJhb> leons: yeah because I could say it doesn't run smooth on my i7. But without generation it doesn't make sense :p Also, that is not mobile :D `Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-3520M CPU @ 2.90GHz`
<eyJhb> But my CPU is getting hammered as well because of *sigh* DisplayLink...
<leons> eyJhb: Oh shoot. Well I think it's mobile in the sense that you can't really buy it in a standalone package
<eyJhb> Mobile is more powerfull but more power hungry in general. But no doubt when it comes to like , the 8th generation it still kills my 3rd
<__monty__> Are you sure the U suffix isn't for mobile CPUs?
<eyJhb> __monty__: U is used in mobile CPUs/laptop, but it isn't the actual mobile series which is suffix M
<leons> __monty__: I'm quite certain it's for low energy, and that in turn is specifically for laptops and such.
<eyJhb> ^^
<__monty__> Are you sure it doesn't stand for Underpowered? : )
<leons> __monty__: I think that's implied :)
<eyJhb> i
<eyJhb> It does, or at least, that is what I always think. That is also why my x230 is more powerfull then the x240 and x250 as far as I remember, because they switched to the U series
<infinisil> Unrelated, but oh no, this is the only reply mentioning Nix in that thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21425444 :/
<infinisil> This is not how you onboard new people
<gchristensen> time to reply yourself? :)
<joepie91> I do share the frustration, but yeah, that's... not a great attitude
<leons> eyJhb: Okay, so U's for _ultra low power_. I'm wondering what'll happen when they reach the levels of ARM. I'd recommend the prefix _i_ for imaginary
<leons> *suffix
<infinisil> gchristensen: Did that, just a short one though https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21433484
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<__monty__> Hmm, the blogpost that's a comment on really doesn't seem to understand cabal-install : s
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<__monty__> Looks like UPM's UX is pretty nice. Talking about the GUI mostly.
<joepie91> infinisil: I'd maybe pick 'unknown' rather than 'unpopular', a lot of people interpret 'unpopular' as 'people do not like it' :P
<gchristensen> I had the same thought
<infinisil> Ah yeah good point
<infinisil> Changed it
<qyliss> I'm not sure how much effort they think has gone into Linuxbrew
<qyliss> But I have to say I'm shocked to see someone have that impression, as a former maintainer
<ajs124> Why is adb still the easiest way to transfer files to an android phone? Neither kdeconnect nor mtp work for me right now, at all.
<__monty__> ajs124: I suspect it's the same reason they don't want you to have easily expandable storage.
<ajs124> oh wow, I actually got kdeconnect to work by disabling and re-enabling stuff on the phone.
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<__monty__> Anyone running btrfs with automatic snapshots? (Just some files in ~, not / snapshots.)
<andi-> __monty__: used to pre-nixos, never again.. FS performance was trash after a few hundred snapshots.
<__monty__> Does ZFS handle that many snapshots? Or LVM?
<__monty__> I don't need tons of snapshots.
<__monty__> I mean, it'd be nice but it's not their intended use case from what I've seen.
<__monty__> Really they're intended for atomic backups.
<gchristensen> ZFS performs fine with several thousand snapshots in my experience
<__monty__> Good to know. Will keep it in mind next time I consider switching filesystems.
<andi-> Zfs does snapshots with a fixed cost. No additional overhead with more snaps
<infinisil> andi-: And btrfs doesn't?
<infinisil> Kind of surprising
<andi-> infinisil: I think for btrfs they are truely incremental. Meaning each snapshot depends on the previous snapshot and the live data depends on the latest snapshot. So changing a bit means traversing a list of snapshots and creating a copy of that block.
<andi-> Iirc btrfs works on ~5MB blocks and that means you'll have a huge list of blocks fragmented through snapshots. Not really an issue for ssds but it still stucked :/
<gchristensen> ah whereas zfs is just a tag of an old block pointer?
<__monty__> Does that mean btrfs trades off access speed for space?
<gchristensen> I'm not sure how that would be trading space
<gchristensen> ?
<__monty__> Misunderstood how zfs snapshots would work.
<__monty__> But I don't understand why btrfs would do it this way then?
<__monty__> If it doesn't make any sense? Surely a filesystem programmer must have stronger basic reasoning skills than me?
<gchristensen> then there are probably trade-offs and design decisions you don't know
<__monty__> Maybe I'm asking about what they are?
<gchristensen> probably work asking the btrfs people
<__monty__> But it's probably highly nuanced. I need to be spoonfed polarising facts! ; )
<andi-> The more I play with different FS I just try to avoid any kind of state... Not worth the trouble.
<gchristensen> andi-: same ......
<andi-> Maybe I should look into printers and scanners...
<__monty__> Let's all switch to UDF so everything works with everything.
<andi-> o.O
<__monty__> Worry about how it was only designed for DVDs later.
<gchristensen> more to andi-' point, just erase your data all the time
<__monty__> But my IRC logs though.
<andi-> I would rather not delete official documents on every reboot and request them from the authorities on each reboot
<gchristensen> sure not all your data
<gchristensen> just as much as possible
<leons> andi-: That would be a fun way to loose all your documents and DOS your government at the same time
<leons> Both digitally and in the real world :)
<__monty__> *Or* let's connect the world using syncthing. I'm sure someone somewhere still retained the file you're looking for.
<andi-> leons: yeah and never get them back because spam filter :P
<infinisil> IPFS!
<andi-> __monty__: I do provide syncthing mirroring for a few close friends. I just never look at their data and they can upload as much as they need.
<__monty__> Very nobel.
<__monty__> *noble
<leons> infinisil: You stop reading my mind please?
<gchristensen> andi-: I still want to send backups to you :|
<__monty__> Do you provide backups in at least three distinct geographic locations though?
<andi-> gchristensen: get ipv6 and we get that done today! I have to migrate a few things to grant you v4 access :P
<leons> __monty__: Does the original count? ;)
<__monty__> Also, are you an r/datahoarders connoisseur? Teach me your ways.
<andi-> stupid legacy stuff
<gchristensen> andi-: how much can I send you? :)
<gchristensen> andi-: also, would you like to trade?
<andi-> gchristensen: No need to trade. I can take a few TB
<gchristensen> ipv6 is annoying for me :/ but maybe can sort it.
<andi-> Once I am home for 2 consecutive weekends I'll get the migration done. So far that might happen in 3 weeks..
<leons> gchristensen: Are you doing community federated backups? I've got some highly unreliable {1-3}00GBs of borgbackup to share
<leons> Like space, not data
<__monty__> I like the idea of remote backups but upload bandwidths of ~8Mbps aren't exactly encouraging if you're looking at backing up 2-3TB of data o.O
<leons> But I guess I should upgrade my server first before offering anything to anyone
<infinisil> I'm wondering what the best way is to give somebody else storage space. Because I'd want to use zfs
<infinisil> Could do ssh access
<leons> If everyone agrees on borgbackup, that solves many problems
<__monty__> But "don't put all your eggs in one basket?"
<infinisil> There's also https://nbd.sourceforge.io/
<gchristensen> andi-: ipv6 is annoying because it means I woud need to tunnel through a server and Packet's bandwidth is expensive
<infinisil> "With this compiled into your kernel, Linux can use a remote server as one of its block devices"
<MichaelRaskin> NBD over WAN? Please don't
<andi-> gchristensen: let's chat in a bit. I can do DNAT for now...
<qyliss> I'm curious about tahoe-lafs
<gchristensen> I like Tahoe a lot
<infinisil> MichaelRaskin: Why not?
<leons> gchristensen: You've talked about Hetzner. They've unlimited traffic
<thefloweringash> gchristensen: is he an option for you? https://www.tunnelbroker.net
<infinisil> Hm I guess it needs something to secure it
<MichaelRaskin> infinisil: NBD don
<MichaelRaskin> doesn't like network problems too much
<MichaelRaskin> I ran it on a LAN with non-perfect reliability, and NBD disconnection was a lot more trouble than say USB HDD disconnection
<gchristensen> leons: not "my" machines :(
<gchristensen> I pay for them but they are not mine
<__monty__> Would a P2P cooperative backup network work? As in, "Want a single copy of all your data? Offer half your disk space to the network," "Want three copies? Offer 3/4 of your diskspace to the network."?
<andi-> That doesn't sound right. I have >50TB of capacity but only want three copies of like 10GB
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<__monty__> andi-: Well, I guess there's nothing stopping you from offering more space to the network for free.
<__monty__> This does sound a lot like IPFS I guess.
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<infinisil> __monty__: Doesn't work on small scales
<__monty__> Why not?
<__monty__> Because of availability?
<andi-> But ipfs is kinda bad in terms of discovery and speed.. I tried it a lot but if my desktop doesn't find things from my notebook or server within 40min it just doesn't work.
<infinisil> One person having 1TB space, wanting a copy of their 500GB, another person has 1GB and wants a copy of their 500MB
<__monty__> We're talking "My data is *safe*." Not "I can access my data 99.9999% of the time."
<infinisil> With only those people, it can't work
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<__monty__> Oh, true.
<infinisil> But with more people this would even out
<gchristensen> andi-: want to host ~30TB of some type of data? :)
<__monty__> That's *very* small scale though : )
<andi-> gchristensen: some type? Depends
<gchristensen> 50% text files 50% .xz files
<__monty__> andi-: Careful, you're gonna end up serving the binary cache.
<andi-> gchristensen: I already have a copy of 19.03 channels...
<gchristensen> :|
<infinisil> Oh you know what would be cool, a shared /nix/store between trusted members
<andi-> O.o
<infinisil> Like the hydra caches, but extended to any trusted members
<__monty__> infinisil: Add a DHT on top and you have an idea that's in my irc logs : )
<andi-> I am not sure I want that. I would require reproducing everything in there .
<MichaelRaskin> infinisil: and not even fully trusted, if builds are reproducible…
<edef> 16:24:46 < __monty__> Would a P2P cooperative backup network work? As in, "Want a single copy of all your data? Offer half your disk space to the network," "Want three copies? Offer 3/4 of your diskspace to the network."?
<edef> 16:27:49 < __monty__> This does sound a lot like IPFS I guess.
<infinisil> Well the trust should come from who has access to it
<edef> this specifically sounds like filecoin, the ipfs sister project
<MichaelRaskin> infinisil: well, if you believe in the checksum, you don't even need to trust whoever gives you content
<edef> also see the #untrustix work adisbladis is doing and a bunch of us were interested in doing similar things, which is meant for solving the binary cache trust end of things
<qyliss> Was there untrustix stuff at the hack day? Did I miss it?
<leons> infinisil: Here's an issue: Say we share a store, I package smth., manipulate the file in the shared store, you review my PR and reuse the cached thing
<edef> qyliss: i definitely missed it, i don't think we really did any work on it
<leons> Now we have something different in nixpkgs than you've tested
<infinisil> leons: You change a file in the store?
<edef> ime hack day ended up being more of a social event than specific pre-planned work getting done
<qyliss> I got a bunch of work done!@
<edef> which i found more valuable in the end overall
<infinisil> leons: That's illegal
<infinisil> !
<edef> i got to talk to a lot of people and give suggestions
<edef> and gather ideas from them that i had not considered
<leons> infinisil: Yes, but technically possible with a shared store right? Like my initial publish could be manipulated
<leons> If it weren't reproducible. And then someone would need to reproduce
<infinisil> leons: I'd say the store should be read-only (aka only the nix daemon can write to it via derivations)
<MichaelRaskin> And single-builder data should not be believed in a shared store
<leons> But the storage medium (e.g. hdd) isn't
<infinisil> I'm saying that this shared store should only be writable to by trusted members
<infinisil> Not anybody
<qyliss> So basically multi-user Nix between multiple machines?
<MichaelRaskin> Ideally, only by agreement of independent trusted members
<infinisil> qyliss: Yeah
<leons> infinisil: Yes, that point I wanted to emphasize. The impact of a trusted member doing something malicious
<qyliss> Wasn't there something like that at NixCon?
<qyliss> something to do with CI, maybe?
<leons> adisbladis talked to a lot of people about such ideas.
<infinisil> They're called "trusted" members because we can trust them to not do that
<infinisil> If we don't trust them, they won't be trusted members
<leons> I don't think you can have the idea of "trusted" members at any larger scale, so that the system remains trustworthy but useful
<infinisil> We have nixpkgs that works like that doesn't it?
<infinisil> Over 100 people that could just push malicious stuff to master and nobody would notice
<adisbladis> We had a session on untrustix
<leons> But that's source, so in theory easy to verify. But even that is flawed in that it could be abused easily, on accident or on purpose
<adisbladis> I haven't had much time to actually work on it since then though
<leons> * verify in the sense of readable
<infinisil> Relevant is rfcs#55
<{^_^}> https://github.com/NixOS/rfcs/pull/55 (by tilpner, 3 weeks ago, open): [RFC-0055] Retire inactive nixpkgs committers
<infinisil> leons: Hm yeah
<infinisil> So maybe such a shared nix store should only be for pure sandboxed derivations that had the same exact bit-reproducible output for 2+ different people
<infinisil> That might be nicer yeah..
<infinisil> Slap some rfcs#17 on that, then use any content-addressable distributed storage to implement it :D
<{^_^}> https://github.com/NixOS/rfcs/pull/17 (by wmertens, 2 years ago, open): [RFC 0017] Intensional Store
<infinisil> And then give access for any nixpkgs committer to publish stuff
<infinisil> And zablam! Lots of build hours and storage saved
<leons> infinisil: Committer maybe, but the notion of trusted (or better: verified) is key here still. You don't want one individual to appear as two publishers
<infinisil> Yeah, is there some way to prove 2 people aren't the same maybe?
<qyliss> How do you prove they aren't working together, too?
<leons> Also consider the legal implications for proprietary stuff! Redistribution :/
<MichaelRaskin> infinisil: they were both at NixCon ?
<infinisil> Hehe yeah, could still be working together though
<MichaelRaskin> Or be housemates with shared infrastructure…
<infinisil> Or perhaps we only need to prove that two nix builds aren't the same?
<leons> On a related note regarding windows update: How to prove Microsoft isn't actually evil? ^^
<infinisil> Probably similarly impossible!
<leons> That should've actually been my statement of "it probably isn't possible to achieve a 100% bulletproof trust model"
<infinisil> Let's leverage the web of trust for Nix: You sign builds with your gpg key, and Nix only downloads stuff if you trust their key
<infinisil> I like that
<leons> Talked about that with adisbladis extensively. The WoT is complicated and has a lot of flaws. In a community such as Nix it would probably even work, but for anything larger / less active?
<leons> Also, I agree with adisbladis that the trust model should be largely independent on the way signatures and binaries are propagated
<infinisil> I'd think for users that don't need anything special, trusting hydra's key is the only thing they'd have to do
<leons> I like WoT, don't get me wrong, but it seldom works
<leons> infinisil: Which doesn't get you many benefits of WoT
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<infinisil> leons: Why not?
<adisbladis> I would love to discuss these things, but I don't have time right now :/
<leons> You get the implementation complexity of transitive trust, but 99.99% of the users trust only one (n) party(ies)
<adisbladis> The short version: WoT is orthogonal to my proposed scheme
<__monty__> leons: What's the alternative though? Centralised certs?
<adisbladis> And it's not wise to widen the scope to include that
<leons> __monty__: I'm not proposing an alternative, and it won't be centralised for sure, just brainstorming
<__monty__> How about we PoW this? You publish your hash, I verify by rebuilding, if it's good I attach my next hash to the top of the chain.
<infinisil> leons: Hm but that's kind of natural: When you get software from X, you automatically trust X because you run their code, so it makes sense to trust their caches as well
<infinisil> Though I guess caches are external and could change, whereas a binary can't change
<infinisil> __monty__: Problem with this I can see is that it's easy to automate 100 builders for building something you want to be trusted by others
<infinisil> Although, if it has to be distinct and only trusted users (which you probably meant), this might work
<leons> infinisil: Actually, personally I'd maybe trust you, but don't wanna let you control over which parties I should trust. I could still benefit from this, if the OUTPUT hashes of dependencies were build inputs. This way, I'd only have to build the dependencies not built by someone I trust
<leons> If I've verfied all of the dependencies, I would be able to take your binary
<__monty__> infinisil: Ah right, that brings us right back to identification. Though it does rely on the "Most people are good reasoning." So I don't expect much better than a 33% (not sure what the exact number was) attack.
<adisbladis> __monty__: Go to #untrustix and check the paste in the topic
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<__monty__> How far along's the implementation?
<manveru> that's neat
<manveru> but no url to the project... can't find it via ddg either :(
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<__monty__> Nor google.
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<andi-> I would join #untrustix but I reached my channel limit on freenode :'(
<gchristensen> :(
<gchristensen> maybe you can get it increased
<andi-> Shall I dare to try?
<andi-> I will..
<ajs124> freenode has a channel limit?
<gchristensen> besides how are you going to join #nixos-power9 without raising it
<andi-> 123 or so is the limit
<andi-> 120 to be exact
<andi-> The #freenode reccomendation is to connect a second time..
<gchristensen> :| :| :|
<gchristensen> andi--
<gchristensen> :~D
<andi-> I left a random channel.
<gchristensen> yes but still power9
<andi-> /o\
<andi-> I guess after 10y of no communication I can leave a channel.. that is fair
<gchristensen> lol
<gchristensen> #nixcon channel could go away now I guess
<andi-> no!
<MichaelRaskin> I guess there are a few more 5-year-idle ones in reserve
<joepie91> andi-: now after andi-, we'll also have andi+!
* andi- ponders
<andi-> I have one network with two connections alreayd. Not going that route.
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<MichaelRaskin> Hm, having andi+ and andi+++ on the same channel might make the karma computation go crazy
<andi-> mhmm
<andi-> tempting
<gchristensen> how about an andi- and an andi+ like blood
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<andi-> andi++ is not a valid nick ;-)
<__monty__> andi-: You stay in every channel you ever visit?
<samueldr> FOMO is real
<MichaelRaskin> And staying won't help, as even I who skims all Nixpkgs issue headlines don't try to keep up with #nixos
<__monty__> It's not as hard if you ignore the bot : )
<MichaelRaskin> Doesn't actually matter
<andi-> I have a chanmon buffer where all the messages from all the channels scroll through. That isn't that much traffic. Most of the time you can read along
<leons> andi-: But you have a large number of states to maintain when reading linearly?
<samueldr> I believe it's called cooperative mutltasking
<adisbladis> __monty__ manveru: it's not public yet, on purpose
<manveru> ok :|
<adisbladis> I don't want to get bogged down in language discussions and stupid things like that.
<__monty__> gchristensen: Is Power9 an open architecture? Quick comparison between it and RiscV?
<samueldr> it's been opened recently IIRC
<adisbladis> Tbh there's already been enough bikeshedding even without code being public
<__monty__> adisbladis: Well, bikeshedding's all we can do until the code's public : >
<gchristensen> yeah iirc they're working to open everything they have about power9
<__monty__> Very cool.
<__monty__> Could still use an ELI5 on POWER9 v. RISC-V.
<samueldr> an interesting design point of most (all?) POWER9 stuff is how the BMC and firmwares are kept open and using (a slimmed down) Linux
<gchristensen> yeah I don't know the difference really
<samueldr> just like an ELI5 of x86 vs. ARM... probably not ELI5able much
<gchristensen> X86 is CISC. ARM is RISC. RISCV is RISC. POWER9 is POWER9
<__monty__> Doesn't need to be literally *5*.
<gchristensen> if you look it up, let me know
<__monty__> Looking up bmc currently.
<__monty__> Is it like a bios or even more low level?
<qyliss> You can buy a Talos II and run entirely free software on it, down to the firmware level.
<gchristensen> is POWER9 CISC or RISC?
<__monty__> I could be wrong but I thought PPC was a RISC.
<qyliss> iunno
<__monty__> I assume POWER9 is a continuation.
<__monty__> Can RISC-V only compete with ARM or intel CPUs too?
<manveru> adisbladis: well, i'll just lurk around then, but i'd definitely want to help by running a builder or something :) (and i'm not fuzzy about languages...)
<adisbladis> manveru: I expect to open up things in a few weeks :)
<adisbladis> Time permitting
<manveru> cool :)
<__monty__> But time never permits! She's one cold-hearted mistress.
<MichaelRaskin> __monty__: I think right now RISC-V needs some expertise accumulation; afterwards it will become the question of process availability…
<__monty__> MichaelRaskin: So nothing's holding the architecture back from competing with either of intel and arm?
<gchristensen> like most things, tech is only a small part of the battle
<MichaelRaskin> Overcentralised manufacturing, peripherals violating their own specs, man-millenia of compiler polishing…
<samueldr> I think the fact that implementors can add their own magic sauce (instructions) on top of RISC-V may poison the well with the first few implementors having an upper hand :/
<samueldr> and then something about distributions targetting (willfully or accidentally) one of those derivative
<andi-> I hope that spans our like on x86 where we basically agreed on a recent enough subset. There is the `G` variant of the CPUs that is what most distros seem to target. That is a general purpose instruction set and IIRC a superset of all the standard instructions sets.
<andi-> If some random corp comes around and adds a few more instructions that doesn't harm as long as they don't create their entirely new base set. IIRC they can't / should not call it RISC-V then...
<gchristensen> RISCV might like to use the PHP license
<gchristensen> (something like the)
<MichaelRaskin> I think what matters is what WD and SyFive do
<andi-> I am not sure if you are serious
<gchristensen> I am serious
* andi- goes read PHP license
<gchristensen> it explicitly called out using the name as against the license
<__monty__> But the name's a trademark?
<__monty__> They can't just use it.
<MichaelRaskin> RISC-V is
<MichaelRaskin> And combo-copyright-trademark-licenses are a good way to start a megaflamewar, look at Mozilla and Debian
<gchristensen> :)
<__monty__> What's going on with Mozilla and Debian? Do you mean all the iceweasel things?
<MichaelRaskin> Yes, and the discussions around it
<__monty__> But isn't that *exactly* what we want here. For those implementors *not* to be able to use the RISC-V name?
<qyliss> I wish SPARC64 had picked up
<gchristensen> yeah?
<MichaelRaskin> Commercial use of RISC-V trademark requires even RISC-V Foundation membership
<qyliss> It's GPL so wouldn't have had a problem with magic instructions.
<__monty__> Except hardware's not software. So do the terms of the gpl really apply the way we'd want them to?
<MichaelRaskin> qyliss: does implementing ISA require disclosing full internal schematics?
<gchristensen> interesting question :)
<MichaelRaskin> The problem is that it locks you out of most foundries
<MichaelRaskin> If you want to fix desktop-range CPU mess, start small, practice on web browser engines
<__monty__> MichaelRaskin: Schematics? Why? Processes I'd understand. But isn't the hardware designer rather than the foundry supposed to come up with the schematic?
<MichaelRaskin> The internal details of an IC printed at a foundry depend (and reveal) NDA-ed process details
<__monty__> But the schematic is pre-all of that, no?
<MichaelRaskin> I think careful application of GPL will require drawing quite a few lines here and there
<MichaelRaskin> Of course, NVidia blatantly violates software GPL…
<__monty__> Ugh, those smug badgers.
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<__monty__> Why are there only 2 major graphics card vendors (3 if you count intel's iGPUs)? There's multiple major CPU vendors and upwards of 5 architectures.
<gchristensen> do you have any guesses?
<__monty__> Not really, except for graphics are niche.
<__monty__> But that's no longer true.
<MichaelRaskin> Do you count Mali GPUs as GPUs, if you count ARM as an architecture?
<__monty__> Maybe it's still true comparatively.
<__monty__> Don't know about them.
<samueldr> don't forget about powervr
<samueldr> and adreno
<__monty__> Are you sure these are products and not just marketing? : >
<samueldr> powervr was even used within atom chips up until like 2013
<samueldr> in addition to the best console, the dreamcast
<samueldr> well, I say atom chips, those cellphones and tablets targeting atom, not the laptop targeting atoms
<samueldr> adreno is IIRC still in use with either of qualcomm or samsung
<drakonis1> __monty__: it'll be 3 next year, as intel will ship their discrete gpus
<ashkitten> i hope the drivers don't suck
<ashkitten> i remember trying to use their crappy glsl implementation on my ivy bridge laptop
<drakonis1> i thought intel was supposed to have excellent drivers at this point?
<MichaelRaskin> For many usecases it's nice and low-hassle
<MichaelRaskin> But as the expectations about functionality support from GPU are approximately as stable as from web browser…
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<pie_> intel web browser when
<joepie91> hey look, Google is trying to kill the open web: https://twitter.com/drybones_5/status/1190694123965210625
<drakonis1> sick
<drakonis1> but i still get urls
<infinisil> Soo the usual?
<MichaelRaskin> pie_: are you sure there is none in ME?
<joepie91> infinisil: when I warned people of this last year, before these changes started appearing, I was called "paranoid"
<infinisil> I'm glad I'm mostly independent of google crap
<leons> The only service I'm using from Google (knowningly at least) is Google
<leons> (the search engine, btw)
<MichaelRaskin> It would be nice to recognise use of recaptcha as illegal in EU, though
<__monty__> Tbf, isn't that how most people use browsers? "Let me google google" isn't a meme for nothing.
<leons> Oh shoot, and youtube /o\
<__monty__> leons: And probably those captchas : )
<__monty__> Oh, how about maps?
<__monty__> OSM is great I guess.
<leons> Let's rephrase that to "knowingly or forcibly"
<__monty__> The routing's not amazing though. And the UI's kinda hard to grok.
<MichaelRaskin> Fortunately, Google UIs are also user-hostile!
<leons> Yep, actually using OSM on the Desktop. deepl is way better than Google Translate now anyways
<pie_> joepie91: blehhhh :(
<pie_> nixos must dissent :P
<leons> I used to use another navigation app, backed by OSM material but still proprietary software, because the routing was pretty okayish
<MichaelRaskin> OSM is great for maps. Pedestrian routing is good enough to use as a rough guide then make the changes that make sense on the ground
<pie_> well, i mean cmon, google basically *is* the internet at this point right? ;P
<leons> Ahh, the app's called "Scout". Haven't used it in ~3 years, so could've gotten worse...
* pie_ cries tears of beans
<__monty__> MichaelRaskin: I never had a hard time understand google maps UI the way I have with OSM though.
<pie_> oh that reminds me
<__monty__> I far prefer the quality of OSM maps btw.
<pie_> i heard recently mozilla went through with the migrating dns to cloudflare?
<pie_> s/migrating/routing
<leons> Oh wow, Scout expliclity asks you whether you want to participate in their floating car data program, and gives you the ability to decline without any questions asked.
<MichaelRaskin> __monty__: dunno, the level where I have any trouble with OSM is the level where Google just won't let me go (detailed structure of map entries, that kind of things)
<leons> Quite shocking how long the routing takes when it's done on your phone, and not by beefy google servers :)
<__monty__> MichaelRaskin: I'm talking about very basic things. Like just selecting an address, "London" gives you multiple results that seem to mean the exact same thing, what's the difference? Then when you select one you get this table of tags, internationalized names and other stuff I don't care about, then members which seems to be a list of points used to define the boundary, what? Have these accessible,
<__monty__> sure, but not front and center.
<__monty__> Then when you click directions, rather than filling in the last result you have to start over.
<__monty__> Only this time, it *doesn't* allow you to select a specific result for London. It just goes with the first one.
<__monty__> Then there's the option to select the kind of routing. I'm not into routing services/algorithms. How am I supposed to make a sensible choice between OSRM and Graphhopper?
<__monty__> The resulting routes are very different.
<__monty__> But I have no way to gauge which one's more reliable. I guess I'd go with OSRM because it's the default?
<infinisil> leons: For youtube I'm doing https://github.com/NixOS/nixpkgs/pull/67664
<{^_^}> #67664 (by Infinisil, 9 weeks ago, open): Invidious: init
<infinisil> Self-hosted (or you can use a public instance) alternate minimal youtube frontend
<pie_> things that make me sad: the effort needed to replicate drivers across operating systems
<infinisil> (underneath it of course still relies on youtube, but no google login necessary for subscriptions, no google javascript necessary either)
<leons> infinisil: Looks great, maybe I'll self host that
<infinisil> (no javascript at all in fact)
<infinisil> With the module I'm writing in that PR (which needs a bit more work) you should then be able to just do `services.invidious.enable = true` and it would just work :D
<leons> Hopefull google doesn't my instance with a couple of users
<infinisil> Man I love that part of NixOS
<colemickens> infinisil: so does the self-hosted version work better than the shared hosted instance? I could never get videos to playback for more than a second or two.
<infinisil> colemickens: Hm I think it's the same
<infinisil> For shared ones you can also turn on some option to download videos locally, not through the instance
<infinisil> But there are some videos that just don't work with invidious unfortunately, not sure what google does with those
<MichaelRaskin> Does youtube-dl also fail on them?
<infinisil> I don't think so
<leons> colemickens: Since infinisils message, I've been watching some videos and actually forgot I wasn't on youtube ^^
<leons> (With the invidio.us instance)
<colemickens> thx. I want to hack on some sort of extension that will auto grab youtube/etc urls, toss them to youtube-dl, add the video to my archive and/or Plex and then start the video with mpv instead.
<__monty__> I usually use rss or google to find videos and then mpv to watch tem.
<colemickens> Even insidious can't help firefox not supporting vaapi :(
<infinisil> I think this is the issue for videos not playing: https://github.com/omarroth/invidious/issues/811
<{^_^}> omarroth/invidious#811 (by simmstein, 3 weeks ago, open): Video unavailable
<infinisil> Hm wait that is rather recent, but probably about the same
<colemickens> mine was able to start, but would buffer for two seconds and then just hang. I kept it installed (and intermittenly disabled) for a month or so and seemed consistent.
<infinisil> Hm can't say I've seen that
<infinisil> Even if it's not perfect, I'm glad there's an alternative anyways
<eyJhb> What did I miss?
<drakonis1> i'm watching the whole nixcon discovery track
<drakonis1> get my nix chops sharpened
<andi-> I will try to upload the other main track content once my laptop works again...
<pie_> > <nixpkgs/nixos>
<{^_^}> /var/lib/nixbot/nixpkgs/master/repo/nixos
<pie_> huh...i guess i must have typod something locally
<drakonis1> for the next nixcon, it'd be good to improve voice recording quality
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<adisbladis> drakonis1: That will happen
<gchristensen> each nixcon we get more equipment as the orga team can afford it
<drakonis1> nice.
<gchristensen> pretty hard to go from nothing to a perfectly executed conference :P
<drakonis1> year to year nix growth is pretty impressive
<adisbladis> My plan (personal plan, not established with the rest of the orga yet) is to get our own lapel mics
<gchristensen> yay
<adisbladis> Ideally we wouldn't rely on the venue for much beyond the beamer
<MichaelRaskin> mwahaha. Beamer, you can bring; outlets, lightning, internet, ventilation — …
<drakonis1> bring your own gear
<drakonis1> byog
<adisbladis> MichaelRaskin: :D
<adisbladis> You know what I mean ^_^
<MichaelRaskin> Well, with enough craziness you probably can supplement the venue lightning…
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<gchristensen> I mentioned at nixcon having a laser light show
<infinisil> +1!
<drakonis1> dance party?
<gchristensen> to learn nix in style
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<MichaelRaskin> Just get a 10+klumen torchlight and connect it via a DC adapter
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<adisbladis> I have one of those! :)
<MichaelRaskin> of course, its cooling assumptions (any physically possible battery that fits will drain before the device overheats) will be broken…
<MichaelRaskin> I only have stuff around 1K
<adisbladis> MichaelRaskin: My one is a diving torch, technically water cooled ;)
<MichaelRaskin> NixCon: challenge your infrastructure assumptions
<gchristensen> NixCon: Goruck
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<andi-> adisbladis: I support that :-)
<andi-> I also want a proper sound mixing board and not just software mixing..
<andi-> it is annoying having to adjust the volumes depending on who is speaking because all mics are on the same input
<adisbladis> Let's get a dummy head and a VR camera setup for an immersive streaming experience :3
<andi-> mhmm
<andi-> While doing the Discovery recordings I was thinking if we could overlay just the person onto the slides so that pointing there would show up properly on the slides.
<gchristensen> g'night
<__monty__> nn, g
<samueldr> andi-: thought about it too, but the presenter would need to have to know about the camera angle and all when recorded, unless they can physically touch the projected display
<samueldr> (wouldn't have worked on the main track I mean)
<andi-> yeah
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<drakonis1> aw crap i updated and kde broke
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<pie_> how hard is it to get a device image in this list? :P
<samueldr> depends
<samueldr> what is it, and why?
<samueldr> consider we're about to remove the raspberry pi 4 image
<samueldr> oh... I'm free enough to actually test and fix things with the rpi 4 and generic image :3
<colemickens> moving to an external repo ?
<samueldr> pie_: what is it, and why does it need to be in there?
<pie_> the raspberry pi image was kind of why i was asking heh.....
<samueldr> the main reason it was added is because the raspberry pi has a tremendous install base, and it wasn't known when u-boot+kernel would be ready for the generic image
<samueldr> but still, pie_, what is it? maybe the generic image can work
<pie_> im actually trying to get https://github.com/qzed/linux-surface/ to work on my device, but i just ran out of battery while trying to compile the kernel xD im not sure if my charger was too weak or badly connected (no battery stats yet)
<pie_> patches are involved
<samueldr> definitely not relevant to that section :) sorry
<pie_> yeah i didnt htink so :P
<pie_> the generic image does boot and run kde and stuff, theres just hardware bugs
<pie_> i dont suppose including custom kernels is an option
<samueldr> not really, I figure maybe if there was a tremendous user base, still it wouldn't be in that file if there was
<pie_> yeah that would go elsewhere
<pie_> hm, i have an idea *attempts to build iso with new kernel*
<samueldr> it *is* annoying when hw manufacturers make basic stuff like battery charging software-controller
<samueldr> I have this chuwi tablet with keyboard dock where it is
<samueldr> for the longest time I had to use a patchset over the mainline kernel
<samueldr> *thinking* I should look into its androidy bits to see if I can somehow make mobile-nixos installable through fastboot on it
<samueldr> just for kicks