waleee-cl has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
drakonis_ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
<pie__>
im just going to pretend i dont know about bash again and continue using my heuristic of if i want to use more than a single if statement i will switch to a saner language
* pie__
sticks his head in the sand
<gchristensen>
good choice
<samueldr>
bash is a perfectly cromulent
<samueldr>
(sentence left unfinished intentionally)
<pie__>
oh i didnt notice
<pie__>
my parsers are bronek
<pie__>
too much autocorrect
drakonis_ has joined #nixos-chat
Drakonis has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
Drakonis has joined #nixos-chat
<samueldr>
hmmmm, there might be a (new) issue with netsurf and its build
<gchristensen>
that is why 3 years ago I set my sights on (1) Nix being my full time job, then (2) never having to use Chef again, then (3) liberating Chef users
<etu>
gchristensen: If someone in my area would offer me a nix-job, I would probably just jump to it :D
<Taneb>
etu: which is your area?
LnL has joined #nixos-chat
<etu>
Taneb: Stockholm Sweden
<Taneb>
Sadly I do not know any nix jobs there :(
<etu>
Taneb: Me neither :p
<etu>
Taneb: I'm still trying to transform my job to become a nix-job :p
<Taneb>
What kind of job is it currently?
<etu>
Mostly php development, but some days I need to do devops as well on ubuntu servers. We have a a kinda big site.
<Taneb>
Sounds like Nix would be useful, but I never don't think that
<aanderse>
etu: keep fighting the good fight!
<aanderse>
i think there is huge room for improvement of php infrastructure using nixos
<etu>
Taneb: It would, but I need to convince the others that work with the infra as well :p
<aanderse>
i'm (slowly) trying to transform the web environment here to take full advantage of nixos
<aanderse>
worth the fight :)
<gchristensen>
etu, aanderse what are your strategies?
<aanderse>
gchristensen: well for web we're *big* time debian shop... i found a great way to convince people to not use debian for php is to let people use debian for php :D
<aanderse>
but aside from that, we were looking for an ops solution
<aanderse>
and fundamentally no ops solution has ever come across to me as satisfactory until i saw nix
<aanderse>
we're slow to move around here
<aanderse>
so existing devops solutions were being looked at, but no one was convinced enough to undertake the project of moving to one
<aanderse>
so i presented nixops and explained why i think existing ops solutions are so inferior
<aanderse>
it was enough to greenlight a pilot
<gchristensen>
nice
<aanderse>
~25 nixops managed servers later i'm making steady progress :)
<etu>
gchristensen: My team lead find nix too "different" and "not widely used" etc
<etu>
gchristensen: So I haven't really got started... :/
<etu>
gchristensen: My next shot will be to try to introduce docker containers built with nix.
<gchristensen>
nice
<Taneb>
We've released docker containers built with nix :)
<etu>
sigh
<etu>
our chef is too old to be able to create systemd services, guess template file is the way then
<gchristensen>
ouch
endformationage has joined #nixos-chat
veske has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
f0x has joined #nixos-chat
<ashkitten>
lol, people talking about weird bash quirks last night?
<gchristensen>
just enough to regret it
* ashkitten
used to use zsh for scripting, now would probably use powershell for anything significant
<gchristensen>
let's rewrite stdenv in powershell
<ashkitten>
partly because i think powershell is pretty good aside from its naming conventions, partly because it'd make all the suckless devs cry
<gchristensen>
bahaha
<adisbladis>
Ohh, making suckless devs cry
* adisbladis
is all for
<joepie91[w]>
lol
<das_j>
aren't suckless devs crying when literally anything happens?
<adisbladis>
Every time you add 1 SLOC you make one suckless dev cry
<das_j>
their terminal emulator is still the best one around imo
<das_j>
I still want to write them that while many points are valid, systemd isn't just PID 1 and not everything from the codebase runs there. But who would listen to reason when you could also use sinit!
<gchristensen>
not worth engaging
<das_j>
yep
<das_j>
> Registrations are now open for slcon6 that will be held in Bad Liebenzell
<{^_^}>
error: syntax error, unexpected IN, expecting ')', at (string):255:57
<das_j>
well
<das_j>
about 1h from here...
<ashkitten>
do a presentation about reimplementing systemd in powershell
<ashkitten>
with uhh
<das_j>
if you give me the slides
<ashkitten>
emacs as the window manager
* ashkitten
thinks of other things suckless devs probably hate
<das_j>
they love donations: Tobias Heider donated 0.01 EUR
<das_j>
they probably hate browsers
<das_j>
they even hate their own
<samueldr>
do they use overhead projectors with hand-written transparencies for their talks?
<ashkitten>
my gf says she wishes they'd "suck a bit less"
<ashkitten>
since she likes some of their tools and shares some of their philosophy, but also they tend to be assholes
<das_j>
agree. some tools are awesome like st and surf
<das_j>
dwm is probably cool as well, I don't think I need all i3 features
<ashkitten>
if i get a new wm it'll be a wayland compositor
<ashkitten>
and for that i need to wait until i can get an amd gpu
<das_j>
this is literally my exact problem
<das_j>
it would be sway though
<joepie91[w]>
suckless have the broken-clock problem
<samueldr>
right twice a day?
<joepie91[w]>
they seem to be contrarian (and generally assholes) for the sake of it, and every once in a while they hit on a thing that really is suboptimal in existing things
<joepie91[w]>
and so sometimes they have better things, but not consistently :P
<ashkitten>
oh yeah and i forgot about them hating dotfiles, their tools are only configurable via a header file and recompilation
<manveru>
hmm, someday i should come up with a way to turn my vpn on/off without doing a nixos-rebuild :P
<manveru>
it's just that it needs so much configuration, not only openvpn but also davmail/docker/hosts/dnsmasq... not sure it's gonna be as easy or clean
<gchristensen>
oof
<manveru>
guess if i wasn't on NixOS, i'd just stay on the company VPN forever out of convenience :P
<adisbladis>
ashkitten: Honestly the thing with the headers is not so bad.. You can write a Nixos module that makes it look like a proper config file ^_^
<ashkitten>
adisbladis: sure *i* could, but the suckless devs don't seem to have any concept of a barrier to entry, not that i'd expect people like them to give half a shit about accessibility
<ashkitten>
minimalism over accessibility & such
<gchristensen>
sorry did I hear bloat?
<ashkitten>
you're right i used more words than i needed
<gchristensen>
too many words, such bloat, wow
<Shados>
And thus you have the bloat of an entire compiler toolchain on any system on which you may need to reconfigure your suckless system. Clearly much lighter than parsing INI or some other trivial key/value format.
<das_j>
From their DWM readme: Because dwm is customized through editing its source code, it's pointless to make binary packages of it. This keeps its userbase small and elitist. No novices asking stupid questions. There are some distributions that provide binary packages though.
<ashkitten>
at least they know they're being elitist
<das_j>
I'm honestly thinking about giving a systemd talk now
<Shados>
...so their kryptonite is novice users, and they can be defeated by making all their software configurable, eh...
<das_j>
"The CfP for interested participants will end on 2019-06-30." damn it
pie__ has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
<adisbladis>
das_j: You can claim you're an uninterested participant. Their deadline is not defined.
<das_j>
adisbladis: Yeah but I want to hold the talk
<gchristensen>
das_j: just tell them that systemd was at fault for giving you the bad time
<das_j>
oohhh
<das_j>
quote: (rants are welcome as well).
<das_j>
just pretend ranting
<das_j>
like the "Linux sucks" talks by this one dude
<adisbladis>
I saw on Lennart Poetterings twitter that they usually invite him ;)
<ashkitten>
just bring a soapbox and stand next to the other soapboxes
<ashkitten>
but make sure your soapbox is bigger
<ashkitten>
so like
<ashkitten>
refrigerator soap
<das_j>
a bloated soapbox
<ashkitten>
do you think suckless devs hate nixos?
<das_j>
"I've heard it all ended in a big blood bath when one of them spoke about using systemd"
<das_j>
makes me wanna hold the talk
<das_j>
"As far as I know it was supposed to be a joke, but no one understood it because it was encoded in an harmful language"
<samueldr>
>> All of these tragic events were recorded in farbfeld and subsequently lost forever. ;-D
<gchristensen>
this is too good
<samueldr>
I don't really grok how inventing a custom format is less bloat than using... dunno... bmp?
<das_j>
Going there is probably just a fancy way of suicide
<gchristensen>
I think you do know, samueldr
<samueldr>
I said "grok how [it] is less bloat" not "why they did it"
<gchristensen>
aw, I spoiled my own joke
<ashkitten>
i feel suckless is probably the kind of people who would hate simd cpu instructions
<joepie91[w]>
ashkitten: well, I mean, they are not pure, so
<joepie91[w]>
:P
<ashkitten>
because simd is a way to do things faster but it's also "another way of doing it"
<ashkitten>
i think that falls under their definition of bloat, whatever that is
<ashkitten>
gchristensen: "the church of suckless nixos"?
<ashkitten>
wat
<gchristensen>
...yep
<gchristensen>
they have a pope and everything
<Taneb>
You always know something's worth listening to when the speaker describes themselves as a "self-proclaimed pope"
<gchristensen>
I'm glad they did it
<Taneb>
Did they get anywhere?
<gchristensen>
I dunno
<samueldr>
(let's give tim pope, of vim fame, a pass... pope being the surname)
<gchristensen>
but them doing it takes the pressure off of making NixOS compatible with their otherwise strange wants
<Taneb>
Fair
<ashkitten>
tbh i think guix is a cool idea for taking nix and making everything sorta uh, more.. self contained? like, no shell and python and perl scripts in derivations
<gchristensen>
on one hand yes
<ashkitten>
and if it had nonfree packages i'd probably be using it
<gchristensen>
on the other hand bash isn't so bad for such limited cases
<gchristensen>
the coold thing about Nix/Guix/etc is all the details of how it was built evaporates at the end
<ashkitten>
yeah
<ashkitten>
but it'd be nice for maintainability if everything was sorta all written in the same lang
<gchristensen>
on the other hand, it is a good thing we don't use (Assembly, C,C++, Rust, Bash, Perl, Ruby, Python, PHP, HTML, XML, CSS, Coq, Haskell, Ada) for everything, and instead we have languages which are really great at domains
<gchristensen>
joepie91[w]: I can't get past the first screen, so I guess I win
<joepie91[w]>
samueldr: reminds me, I need to order flash storage
<adisbladis>
Also I _really_ like to be able to write python build tooling in python, js tooling in js etc etc
<joepie91[w]>
gchristensen: there is more :)
<gchristensen>
joepie91[w]: THIS IS HORRIBLE
<joepie91[w]>
:D
<joepie91[w]>
Blood Pressure: The Game
<samueldr>
I'm frustrated KNOWING it's made to be frustrating
<gchristensen>
I am so angry this exists
<__monty__>
Wow, that is horrible.
<ashkitten>
AAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Drakonis has joined #nixos-chat
<Drakonis>
https://github.com/debarshiray/toolbox this would actually be pretty nice to have once the go rewrite is out, since it appears they might allow it to work with other images instead of just fedora's image
<Drakonis>
would make it a hoot to have a mutable container environment
<infinisil>
joepie91[w]: THIS WEBSITE IS HORRIBLE
<infinisil>
It took me 8 minutes!
<__monty__>
Dammit, now I feel challenged.
<Drakonis>
coreos also has something like this, but its also in shell
<joepie91[w]>
hahaha
<joepie91[w]>
04:55 here
<Drakonis>
what horror show website is this you're talking about?
<manveru>
hmm, literate programming again? or is that different
<__monty__>
Sounds more like CI for docs.
<gchristensen>
not really, no
<gchristensen>
I haven't read it, but there is a list of 4 points about "living documentation: the very short version" and one of them is really nice: "thinking about documentation is a way to draw attention to the quality or lack thereof in a system"