gchristensen changed the topic of #nixos-chat to: NixOS but much less topical || https://logs.nix.samueldr.com/nixos-chat
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<pie__> So...what if we did http://redsymbol.net/articles/unofficial-bash-strict-mode/ for writeShellScriptBin and company by default? :P
<gchristensen> not a great idea
<gchristensen> (even though it looks like one at the outset)
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<pie__> I figured it wouldn't be so simple and it wouldn't have crossed my mind by default, but got coincidentally prodded in this direction
<pie__> why would it be bad?
<pie__> besides the large transition load
<pie__> thanks
<gchristensen> yep!
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<pie__> im just going to pretend i dont know about bash again and continue using my heuristic of if i want to use more than a single if statement i will switch to a saner language
* pie__ sticks his head in the sand
<gchristensen> good choice
<samueldr> bash is a perfectly cromulent
<samueldr> (sentence left unfinished intentionally)
<pie__> oh i didnt notice
<pie__> my parsers are bronek
<pie__> too much autocorrect
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<samueldr> hmmmm, there might be a (new) issue with netsurf and its build
<samueldr> tig
<samueldr> (wrong focus)
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<eyJhb> Does anyone have experience with - https://fossa.com/ ?
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<etu> bleh, I really don't like chef :p
<etu> nix is so much nicer
<gchristensen> that is why 3 years ago I set my sights on (1) Nix being my full time job, then (2) never having to use Chef again, then (3) liberating Chef users
<etu> gchristensen: If someone in my area would offer me a nix-job, I would probably just jump to it :D
<Taneb> etu: which is your area?
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<etu> Taneb: Stockholm Sweden
<Taneb> Sadly I do not know any nix jobs there :(
<etu> Taneb: Me neither :p
<etu> Taneb: I'm still trying to transform my job to become a nix-job :p
<Taneb> What kind of job is it currently?
<etu> Mostly php development, but some days I need to do devops as well on ubuntu servers. We have a a kinda big site.
<Taneb> Sounds like Nix would be useful, but I never don't think that
<aanderse> etu: keep fighting the good fight!
<aanderse> i think there is huge room for improvement of php infrastructure using nixos
<etu> Taneb: It would, but I need to convince the others that work with the infra as well :p
<aanderse> i'm (slowly) trying to transform the web environment here to take full advantage of nixos
<aanderse> worth the fight :)
<gchristensen> etu, aanderse what are your strategies?
<aanderse> gchristensen: well for web we're *big* time debian shop... i found a great way to convince people to not use debian for php is to let people use debian for php :D
<aanderse> but aside from that, we were looking for an ops solution
<aanderse> and fundamentally no ops solution has ever come across to me as satisfactory until i saw nix
<aanderse> we're slow to move around here
<aanderse> so existing devops solutions were being looked at, but no one was convinced enough to undertake the project of moving to one
<aanderse> so i presented nixops and explained why i think existing ops solutions are so inferior
<aanderse> it was enough to greenlight a pilot
<gchristensen> nice
<aanderse> ~25 nixops managed servers later i'm making steady progress :)
<etu> gchristensen: My team lead find nix too "different" and "not widely used" etc
<etu> gchristensen: So I haven't really got started... :/
<etu> gchristensen: My next shot will be to try to introduce docker containers built with nix.
<gchristensen> nice
<Taneb> We've released docker containers built with nix :)
<etu> sigh
<etu> our chef is too old to be able to create systemd services, guess template file is the way then
<gchristensen> ouch
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<ashkitten> lol, people talking about weird bash quirks last night?
<gchristensen> just enough to regret it
* ashkitten used to use zsh for scripting, now would probably use powershell for anything significant
<gchristensen> let's rewrite stdenv in powershell
<ashkitten> partly because i think powershell is pretty good aside from its naming conventions, partly because it'd make all the suckless devs cry
<gchristensen> bahaha
<adisbladis> Ohh, making suckless devs cry
* adisbladis is all for
<joepie91[w]> lol
<das_j> aren't suckless devs crying when literally anything happens?
<adisbladis> Every time you add 1 SLOC you make one suckless dev cry
<das_j> This is literally the cringiest part of their website: https://suckless.org/sucks/systemd/
<das_j> (imo)
<das_j> their terminal emulator is still the best one around imo
<das_j> I still want to write them that while many points are valid, systemd isn't just PID 1 and not everything from the codebase runs there. But who would listen to reason when you could also use sinit!
<gchristensen> not worth engaging
<das_j> yep
<das_j> > Registrations are now open for slcon6 that will be held in Bad Liebenzell
<{^_^}> error: syntax error, unexpected IN, expecting ')', at (string):255:57
<das_j> well
<das_j> about 1h from here...
<ashkitten> do a presentation about reimplementing systemd in powershell
<ashkitten> with uhh
<das_j> if you give me the slides
<ashkitten> emacs as the window manager
* ashkitten thinks of other things suckless devs probably hate
<das_j> they love donations: Tobias Heider donated 0.01 EUR
<das_j> they probably hate browsers
<das_j> they even hate their own
<samueldr> do they use overhead projectors with hand-written transparencies for their talks?
<das_j> no, wait
<das_j> not even that bad imo
<samueldr> where's the wordart?
<das_j> submit a patch maybe?
<das_j> 1000 LOC now, 5000 LOC afterwards
<ashkitten> my gf says she wishes they'd "suck a bit less"
<ashkitten> since she likes some of their tools and shares some of their philosophy, but also they tend to be assholes
<das_j> agree. some tools are awesome like st and surf
<das_j> dwm is probably cool as well, I don't think I need all i3 features
<ashkitten> if i get a new wm it'll be a wayland compositor
<ashkitten> and for that i need to wait until i can get an amd gpu
<das_j> this is literally my exact problem
<das_j> it would be sway though
<joepie91[w]> suckless have the broken-clock problem
<samueldr> right twice a day?
<joepie91[w]> they seem to be contrarian (and generally assholes) for the sake of it, and every once in a while they hit on a thing that really is suboptimal in existing things
<joepie91[w]> and so sometimes they have better things, but not consistently :P
<ashkitten> oh yeah and i forgot about them hating dotfiles, their tools are only configurable via a header file and recompilation
<manveru> hmm, someday i should come up with a way to turn my vpn on/off without doing a nixos-rebuild :P
<manveru> it's just that it needs so much configuration, not only openvpn but also davmail/docker/hosts/dnsmasq... not sure it's gonna be as easy or clean
<gchristensen> oof
<manveru> guess if i wasn't on NixOS, i'd just stay on the company VPN forever out of convenience :P
<adisbladis> ashkitten: Honestly the thing with the headers is not so bad.. You can write a Nixos module that makes it look like a proper config file ^_^
<ashkitten> adisbladis: sure *i* could, but the suckless devs don't seem to have any concept of a barrier to entry, not that i'd expect people like them to give half a shit about accessibility
<ashkitten> minimalism over accessibility & such
<gchristensen> sorry did I hear bloat?
<ashkitten> you're right i used more words than i needed
<gchristensen> too many words, such bloat, wow
<Shados> And thus you have the bloat of an entire compiler toolchain on any system on which you may need to reconfigure your suckless system. Clearly much lighter than parsing INI or some other trivial key/value format.
<das_j> From their DWM readme: Because dwm is customized through editing its source code, it's pointless to make binary packages of it. This keeps its userbase small and elitist. No novices asking stupid questions. There are some distributions that provide binary packages though.
<ashkitten> at least they know they're being elitist
<das_j> I'm honestly thinking about giving a systemd talk now
<Shados> ...so their kryptonite is novice users, and they can be defeated by making all their software configurable, eh...
<das_j> "The CfP for interested participants will end on 2019-06-30." damn it
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<adisbladis> das_j: You can claim you're an uninterested participant. Their deadline is not defined.
<das_j> adisbladis: Yeah but I want to hold the talk
<gchristensen> das_j: just tell them that systemd was at fault for giving you the bad time
<das_j> oohhh
<das_j> quote: (rants are welcome as well).
<das_j> just pretend ranting
<das_j> like the "Linux sucks" talks by this one dude
<adisbladis> I saw on Lennart Poetterings twitter that they usually invite him ;)
<ashkitten> just bring a soapbox and stand next to the other soapboxes
<ashkitten> but make sure your soapbox is bigger
<ashkitten> so like
<ashkitten> refrigerator soap
<das_j> a bloated soapbox
<ashkitten> do you think suckless devs hate nixos?
<das_j> nix is kinda bloated, isn't it
<das_j> builtin sandbox and stuff
<gchristensen> SLNOS, baby!
<das_j> heavy systemd dependency
<das_j> gchristensen: SucklessOS?
<gchristensen> it is a "suckless" fork of NixOS
<das_j> "I've heard it all ended in a big blood bath when one of them spoke about using systemd"
<das_j> makes me wanna hold the talk
<das_j> "As far as I know it was supposed to be a joke, but no one understood it because it was encoded in an harmful language"
<samueldr> >> All of these tragic events were recorded in farbfeld and subsequently lost forever. ;-D
<gchristensen> this is too good
<samueldr> I don't really grok how inventing a custom format is less bloat than using... dunno... bmp?
<das_j> Going there is probably just a fancy way of suicide
<gchristensen> I think you do know, samueldr
<samueldr> I said "grok how [it] is less bloat" not "why they did it"
<gchristensen> aw, I spoiled my own joke
<ashkitten> i feel suckless is probably the kind of people who would hate simd cpu instructions
<joepie91[w]> ashkitten: well, I mean, they are not pure, so
<joepie91[w]> :P
<ashkitten> because simd is a way to do things faster but it's also "another way of doing it"
<ashkitten> i think that falls under their definition of bloat, whatever that is
<ashkitten> gchristensen: "the church of suckless nixos"?
<ashkitten> wat
<gchristensen> ...yep
<gchristensen> they have a pope and everything
<Taneb> You always know something's worth listening to when the speaker describes themselves as a "self-proclaimed pope"
<gchristensen> I'm glad they did it
<Taneb> Did they get anywhere?
<gchristensen> I dunno
<samueldr> (let's give tim pope, of vim fame, a pass... pope being the surname)
<gchristensen> but them doing it takes the pressure off of making NixOS compatible with their otherwise strange wants
<Taneb> Fair
<ashkitten> tbh i think guix is a cool idea for taking nix and making everything sorta uh, more.. self contained? like, no shell and python and perl scripts in derivations
<gchristensen> on one hand yes
<ashkitten> and if it had nonfree packages i'd probably be using it
<gchristensen> on the other hand bash isn't so bad for such limited cases
<gchristensen> the coold thing about Nix/Guix/etc is all the details of how it was built evaporates at the end
<ashkitten> yeah
<ashkitten> but it'd be nice for maintainability if everything was sorta all written in the same lang
<gchristensen> it might be
<joepie91[w]> a thing
<gchristensen> on the other hand, it is a good thing we don't use (Assembly, C,C++, Rust, Bash, Perl, Ruby, Python, PHP, HTML, XML, CSS, Coq, Haskell, Ada) for everything, and instead we have languages which are really great at domains
<gchristensen> joepie91[w]: I can't get past the first screen, so I guess I win
<joepie91[w]> samueldr: reminds me, I need to order flash storage
<adisbladis> Also I _really_ like to be able to write python build tooling in python, js tooling in js etc etc
<joepie91[w]> gchristensen: there is more :)
<gchristensen> joepie91[w]: THIS IS HORRIBLE
<joepie91[w]> :D
<joepie91[w]> Blood Pressure: The Game
<samueldr> I'm frustrated KNOWING it's made to be frustrating
<gchristensen> I am so angry this exists
<__monty__> Wow, that is horrible.
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<Drakonis> https://github.com/debarshiray/toolbox this would actually be pretty nice to have once the go rewrite is out, since it appears they might allow it to work with other images instead of just fedora's image
<Drakonis> would make it a hoot to have a mutable container environment
<infinisil> joepie91[w]: THIS WEBSITE IS HORRIBLE
<infinisil> It took me 8 minutes!
<__monty__> Dammit, now I feel challenged.
<Drakonis> coreos also has something like this, but its also in shell
<joepie91[w]> hahaha
<joepie91[w]> 04:55 here
<Drakonis> what horror show website is this you're talking about?
<joepie91[w]> drakonis: https://userinyerface.com/
<infinisil> I could probably have done it faster if i didn't laugh my ass of
<infinisil> off*
<infinisil> joepie91[w]: you on mobile too?
<Drakonis> i'll touch that later
<joepie91[w]> nah, desktop
<Drakonis> it was irritating me already
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<__monty__> Can't get past the validation.
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<__monty__> Yeah, I don't care this much.
<joepie91[w]> lol
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<manveru> hmm, literate programming again? or is that different
<__monty__> Sounds more like CI for docs.
<gchristensen> not really, no
<gchristensen> I haven't read it, but there is a list of 4 points about "living documentation: the very short version" and one of them is really nice: "thinking about documentation is a way to draw attention to the quality or lack thereof in a system"
<manveru> i think that should do it
<gchristensen> I have that ,but it doesn't
<manveru> then the server might send the wrong mime-type :|
<__monty__> Ff doesn't preview pdfs for you?
<__monty__> Weird it comes with pdf.js nowadays, doesn't it?
<manveru> yeah
<gchristensen> it does sometimes
<manveru> but if ff doesn't know that it's a pdf, it won't work
<gchristensen> but if I do a downolad, it'll say cool how do you want to open it? and then is useless
<samueldr> if it's the issue I have, is that when the server says "please download", firefox will not want to just view it
<manveru> ah, yeah, if it's using Content-Disposition that might also happen
<gchristensen> but that doesn't matter I don't care
<gchristensen> the thing I do care about is when I click the "recently downloaded" button and click on the file, I'd love for it to just open in ff
<manveru> of course there's an extension for that too :)
<gchristensen> I guess I was thinknig it might be like an xdg thing I'm missing? but this works too :P
<__monty__> Have you checked your xdg config? `xdg-mime default firefox.desktop application/pdf
<__monty__> `
<gchristensen> ah ha! bing!
<manveru> man, first time i look at .config/mimeapps.list ... it's a mess
<manveru> should probably generate that with home-manager
<gchristensen> oh this is great, I can just symlink this file in to place
<__monty__> You *could* also use `rifle` rather than `xdg-open` if you want a launcher with a straightforward config : >
<gchristensen> oh, I don't use either of those programs :P
<__monty__> I'll convert you yet : )
<gchristensen> alias rifle=firefox
<ashkitten> lmao
<manveru> is rifle in nixpkgs?
<__monty__> manveru: Yeah, it's part of ranger.
<manveru> ah, ok
<__monty__> Can be used seperately though.
<gchristensen> what is ranger?
<__monty__> A TUI file manager.
<gchristensen> huh
<qyliss> ranger is pretty great
<qyliss> imagine if midnight commander was usable
<__monty__> <3
<gchristensen> lol
<gchristensen> > pkgs.ranger.meta.homepage
<gchristensen> I don't really use anything like that, but I gather maybe I should
<adisbladis> gchristensen: There is always dired
<__monty__> gchristensen: It's in a terminal, with vim like bindings, what more could you want?
<__monty__> adisbladis: Shh! No talking about the competition.
<gchristensen> I don't use dired either :P
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<samueldr> gchristensen: wine explorer.exe?
<__monty__> Wait did I end up in a dystopian parallel reality by rebooting?
<eyJhb> samueldr++
<{^_^}> samueldr's karma got increased to 96
<eyJhb> eyJhb++
<{^_^}> eyJhb's karma got decreased to -4
<samueldr> :/
<eyJhb> Keeping the streak going
<eyJhb> what samueldr ? :D
<samueldr> yours seems awfully low
<eyJhb> Yeeeaaahh... I am quite good at giving myself karmaag
<eyJhb> !* and nobody else it helping, sooo :p
<samueldr> if I didn't for the CTF fun, <3 eyJhb
<{^_^}> eyJhb's karma got increased to -3
<samueldr> now stop peeking at it, like a scab, just let it be :)
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<andi-> argh this s3 bucket is *still* deleting things... Lifecycle policy is already set to 1 day :/
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<gchristensen> s3 or DO Spaces?
<andi-> DO
<gchristensen> aye. ouch
<andi-> it was just 380k files or os.. that while true; s3cmd …; done has been running since monday. managed to remove 80k files
<andi-> (it always times out)
<gchristensen> contact DO support and say you don't want t obe charged for them since it is their system incapable of deleting them? (lifecycle rule)
<gchristensen> :)
<andi-> ha, my support experience with them isn't exactly a success story
<gchristensen> nor me
<andi-> after a few weeks you might get a reply on spaces topics
<gchristensen> same with that company whose entire company was deleted without a single human check
<andi-> oh look another 500 :/
<ashkitten> yeah, DO spaces have... really bad deletion times
<ashkitten> on another note i just started playing dancer in ffxiv and it's *really fun*
<__monty__> ,smart-questions
<{^_^}> How to get better and faster answers to your questions: https://www.mikeash.com/getting_answers.html
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