<elvishjerricco>
ottidmes, __monty__: I’ve been messing around with running windows in a VM with VFIO. Trying to get something that behaves like a standard dual boot setup, but with Windows restricted by a VM, and a ZFS zvol for the disk for snapshotting and rolling back.
<elvishjerricco>
It’s almost working, but I’m having some graphics driver issues
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<drakonis>
arghhh
<drakonis>
the container is breaking a ton of stuff outside it
<drakonis>
i wanna run lutris
<aleph->
lol
<aleph->
drakonis: Lutris doesn't work outside a container?
<drakonis>
it works, kinda.
<drakonis>
actually no
<drakonis>
lutris doesn't work on nixos it seems
<drakonis>
apparently there's a lutris flatpak, that might work
<drakonis>
but i'm having issues with the bind mounts breaking firefox in spectacular ways
<drakonis>
also breaking steam
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<drakonis>
i'm not sure why i can't get internet on some applications
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<jasongrossman>
drakonis: FWIW, I've had good results with flatpaks on NixOS. I haven't tried lutris though.
<lejonet>
(I was sooo happy to not need to do any hoops like that when I ventured into vfio land, but when I was debugging some graphics related dohickies I stumbled across that nVidia drivers really don't like VMs)
<elvishjerricco>
lejonet: No dice :(
<lejonet>
elvishjerricco: :( you've verified that you've got a working uefi vbios and all?
<elvishjerricco>
lejonet: Nope. No idea how to verify that :P
<lejonet>
iirc you have to jump through a lot of more hoops if you don't have a uefi capable vbios and don't boot your VM with like ovmf uefi
<lejonet>
sure, have a hard time seeing a 1050 Ti not having a UEFI capable vbios but still :P
<elvishjerricco>
lejonet: Yea, I am using ovmf, and the system boots fine. Windows just runs in a garbage resolution since it stopped the driver after error 43
<lejonet>
elvishjerricco: as I suspected, that is partly what the hv_vendor_id=nvidia43FIX is for, did you look in the link I posted? There seems to be a few more hv options you should enable for it to work properly
<elvishjerricco>
lejonet: Yea I've got all the options recommended in that link now
<lejonet>
elvishjerricco: maybe need to reinstall drivers (be sure to wipe it first), would not be surprised if the registry screws something up
<elvishjerricco>
good idea. I'll give that a shot
<elvishjerricco>
`zfs rollback` to the rescue again :P
<lejonet>
yeah, its awesome working with snapshots :P
<elvishjerricco>
This is the whole reason I'm doing this hypervisor style, rather than a typical dual boot. Other than wanting to limit access to my hardware, I really wanted the ability to snapshot the windows disk since there's so much stateful garbage in windows.
<elvishjerricco>
oh
<elvishjerricco>
that did it
<elvishjerricco>
the driver installer hasn't even run yet, and the graphics are already fixed? Makes no sense, but I'll take it :P
<lejonet>
Well, like I thought, there was probably some crap in the registry :P
<lejonet>
and fully agree there
<lejonet>
I've opted to go the qcow2 route, as I'm using btrfs, which doesn't have an equivalent to zvol sadly
<lejonet>
which also means I need to shutdown the VM to take snapshots :(
<lejonet>
But as it has its own disk anyway, I probably could use ZFS for it, to make the snapshot handling smoother
<elvishjerricco>
Lol, ZFS on a disk, with a zvol taking 100% of the space. I'm sure that's not what they had in mind when they invented zvols :P
<lejonet>
most likely not xD
<lejonet>
But I have a habit of making invetors squirm or roll in their graves so... xD
<lejonet>
inventors*
<elvishjerricco>
lejonet: Thanks for the tips. Windows is running quite beautifully now :)
<lejonet>
elvishjerricco: no problem :) I've been running vfio vga-passthrough for over a year now and it is soooo nice to not have dual-boot
<elvishjerricco>
lejonet: Mine still functions like a dual boot unfortunately. I've only got the one video card. Maybe I should get another, and one of those KVM switch thingies, so I can just start the VM from my main desktop and flip a switch to go to it.
<lejonet>
elvishjerricco: ah, yeah, that does pose a problem, I have 2 different cards, and a separate cable running from the passthrough'd card to my middle monitor
<lejonet>
so I just change input on the screen and I'm in the VM
<lejonet>
(I'm running libvirt for simplicity, started with raw qemu, but you can't do CPU pinning with raw qemu)
<elvishjerricco>
lejonet: You can't? Why not? I thought libvirt usually just used qemu under the hood
<lejonet>
elvishjerricco: qemu has no support for CPU pinning, except an unofficial patch for an ancient version :(
<lejonet>
and CPU pinning isn't directly related to qemu persay, libvirt has semantics in its XML for wrapping cpuset so that you don't have to write some own script to figure out which threads of the qemu process is the actual vCPUs and such
<lejonet>
(and a hint is using the higher numbered CPUs for pinning, as the linux kernel favours the lower numbered for scheduling of like kernel tasks and so)
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<elvishjerricco>
Sweet. ZFS is successfully reclaiming space from the zvol after downloading and deleting a game, thanks to `discard=unmap,detect-zeroes=unmap`
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<sphalerite>
elvishjerricco: oooooh nice
<sphalerite>
elvishjerricco: are those options that are set using zfs set?
<sphalerite>
on the zvol?
<elvishjerricco>
sphalerite: No they’re options for the qemu drive
<sphalerite>
aah ok
<elvishjerricco>
So when windows tells the disk to discard a block, qemu does an unmap on the zvol, and zfs reclaims the space
<sphalerite>
neat
<elvishjerricco>
I *believe* this relies on Windows supporting TRIM, so any system that doesn’t do TRIM probably won’t get this
<sphalerite>
yeah that's what discard is AFAIU
<elvishjerricco>
And of course this doesn’t affect the actual space usage of the zvol itself since zfs has to pessimistically assume the disk could be fully overwritten with random data at any time, so it only affects the space usage of the snapshots of the zvol.
<sphalerite>
still good
<lejonet>
elvishjerricco: what?! Are you saying that block devices aren't truthful to the underlying fs? Oh right... the block device doesn't know it has a underlying fs ;)
<lejonet>
and yeah sphalerite discard == TRIM, so don't forget to disable discard if you're using a SSD as a base for your luks container :)
<sphalerite>
lejonet: you mean enable?
<lejonet>
sphalerite: nope, disable :)
<sphalerite>
you need to enable it explicitly, it's disabled by default
<sphalerite>
on the luks side
<sphalerite>
I don't mind the information leak, so I enable it
<lejonet>
Ah they've fixed that then
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<drakonis>
elvishjerricco: only nvidia drivers are bad, intel and amd are the best
<drakonis>
when running linux never get nvidia
<ldlework>
i keep hearing this but my nvidia card works fine on nixos
<samueldr>
same, but I think I have an explanation
<samueldr>
nvidia's own drivers are closed, and they don't play ball with some of the linux teams doing graphics stuff
<drakonis>
yeah it works fine, but it works in a half baked way
<ldlework>
what does that even mean
<ldlework>
do i care as a GPU owner
<ldlework>
or hobbiest shader writer?
<drakonis>
you should
<ldlework>
why? does it impact me whatsoever?
<samueldr>
in the case of what I was saying, things like wayland won't work because nvidia's own drivers don't implement a linux-specific thing, since their drivers are architected to work on other unix-like, like freeBSD
<samueldr>
so in a sense, nvidia's drivers a probably better suited for multi-platforming
<drakonis>
because nvidia dictates how you should run your card
<ldlework>
what does that mean?
<ldlework>
is there more than one way to run my card?
<drakonis>
it means that nvidia doesn't want you to use it on a VM or on datacenters
<gchristensen>
pretty sure y'all aren't going to agree on this
<simpson>
Actually, yes, there's multiple ways to use your card.
<sphalerite>
samueldr: I don't think so. I think a typical FreeBSD installation that's not using nvidia would use mesa
<drakonis>
the nvidia drivers are a fat shim btw
<drakonis>
apparently the freebsd and solaris drivers are a shim on top of linux
<drakonis>
kind of horrible, really.
<simpson>
For starters, nVidia has a firmware that configures your card to be an nVidia™ GPU device. And then they replace the entire kernel interface for GPUs, all the way up to GL and other app-level interfaces.
<samueldr>
sphalerite: then I don't know :) but I did read the way the nvidia drivers are made is to allow it to work better on a series of operating systems, while not locking them to one specific
<ldlework>
yeah but why should i care
<sphalerite>
ldlework: because you can't use wayland
<ldlework>
was i trying to?
<samueldr>
^ that's probably the only reason, if you wanted to
<drakonis>
if you go on the terminal, its on low resolution :|
<samueldr>
(and Free things)
<ldlework>
this is definitely reason enough to mention this all the time
<drakonis>
it breaks sway :|
<ldlework>
lol
<drakonis>
i wanna try wayland
<drakonis>
not having tearing seems like fun!
<samueldr>
though I'm not sure I like how wayland is being really-linux-specific
<simpson>
There's a collective-action argument, too. nVidia's attitude is propped up by a solid core of fans who won't stop purchasing their hardware.
<samueldr>
(from what I understand, which may not be the whole picture)
<simpson>
And there's not much popular support for the reverse-engineered nouveau drivers because of this.
<drakonis>
wayland is linux specific because freebsd is a tiny fraction of users relative to linux
<drakonis>
and they don't interact with anyone
<samueldr>
that's a sour way to see things
<samueldr>
let's do a monoculture since we don't interact with other cultures
<drakonis>
its very sour, yes, but they backed themselves in a corner with their general attitude to things
<drakonis>
brb
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<gchristensen>
they only have like 5%. they would be more impactful if they contributed directly to linux
<sphalerite>
this sounds like the same argument as why mozilla should give up and work on chromium instead :x
<gchristensen>
oh! oops
<gchristensen>
I guess I got them mixed up
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<sphalerite>
(that was quite a hot take, not sure if the analogy really holds)
<gchristensen>
(it was definitely a very spicy, very garbage take :P)
<simpson>
ldlework: To give a concrete example that many gamers care about, nVidia often bins their GPUs and their software stack is designed to enforce the binning. So one consequence of Free Software and RE efforts is that folks can configure their GPUs as they like.
<ldlework>
As far as I understand binning means selling different performance-tested chips as different SKU's (different products for different prices) and I don't have any conception of how software plays into that
<ldlework>
Also people have accused AMD of doing this as well. It also is not something you ever hear gamers actually talk about..
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<ldlework>
If you think there was a case presented here to worth cautioning people against NVidia at every conversation (even though these reasons never come up and can hardly be expected to be inferred/implied) then 👌
<simpson>
ATI/AMD GPUs tend to be fused off; the registers that control the pipe counts are read-only.
<samueldr>
hot take: wayland is the systemd of graphical environments (this is a personality test, the way you interpret this will reveal your inner self)
* samueldr
ducks for the inevitable tsunami of mentions
<gchristensen>
LOL
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<simpson>
ldlework: There's a pattern of actions. nVidia's preferred path on Linux used to be that people would load nv, a tiny crappy no-acceleration bare-bones driver with obfuscated magic numbers, open-source but totally unreadable without the obfuscator.
<simpson>
nv would run Firefox, slowly, and then people could download nvidia.
<ldlework>
the horror
<simpson>
In response to nouveau's existence, which started out as a deobfuscation of nv, nVidia's engineers threw a tantrum and stopped supporting any path on Linux.
<simpson>
...Yes. Obfuscated drivers are *the* reason why the Free Software movement exists, right?
<samueldr>
the Freedom bit is the bit that annoy me from nvidia the most, and which does make me want to switch... but all the hand-me-downs I get are nvidias :/
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<ldlework>
you didn't really make a case for GPU owners but political extremists
<simpson>
ldlework: Compare and contrast: The community wanted to clean out some magic numbers from r300, a driver for ATI Radeons, right after the ATI/AMD merger. ATI/AMD contributed docs and engineers, leading to r500, r600, r300g, r600g, amdgpu, etc.
<simpson>
Intel owns half the market. They contribute engineers and code; they don't give docs, but they don't obfuscate any magic numbers either.
<samueldr>
the Freedom case is more than extremism, imho, it brings in a good guarantee that your hardware will continue to work with recent software, while most closed source bits will end up hampering hardware compat with software :/
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<samueldr>
(and it's general to hardware, not specific to GPUs)
<simpson>
nVidia contributes the bare minimum when it comes to GPU work, and sometimes not even that. They alone refuse to use the standard Linux subsystem for doing GPU registration, GPU memory management, GPU command submission, etc.
<ldlework>
"more than extremism"
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<ldlework>
well put :)
<samueldr>
hmmm, maybe my words aren't right, but I didn't mean "more extreme than extremists" but "should have more value than being seen as extremism"
<ldlework>
well any activist believes that
<samueldr>
maybe I am the extremist
<ldlework>
i mean, i did say the case was made for them - if that's the case to be made, it _was_ made
<samueldr>
especially considering how these days more and more I have to try and wake up people to the whole e-waste horror happening right now
<ldlework>
but I can't imagine gpu owners, where "gpu owners" is the encompassing class, give a shit
<ldlework>
i certainly don't
<simpson>
You don't say!
<ldlework>
have never heard anyone outside of freenode ever talk about it
<sphalerite>
ldlework: related to what samueldr is saying: if nvidia decides on a whim to stop updating the driver, I'm stuck on the last kernel version they supported or have to buy new hardware.
<samueldr>
all the bootloader-locked, closed hardware, not only your fancy gadgets, but the non-fancy one; and on the hardware side, all the glued down special components
<simpson>
Seriously, compare and contrast. I think that you have produced a false equivalence between ATI/AMD and nVidia here.
<gchristensen>
sphalerite: in general, I find gpg too hard to use safely, and even then -- too hard to feel comfortable thinking I'm using it safely.
<sphalerite>
ldlework: so I have a card in my computer that's stopping me from getting security updates.
<ldlework>
no i have made the case that the concerns behind mentioning the difference are of no real concern to anyone outside of activists
<ldlework>
no that there is an equivalence
<ldlework>
i balked that this conversation is not worth having each time gpus are used as a noun in any conversation
<simpson>
Then remember that next time and don't start it!
<ldlework>
uh
<ldlework>
that's not the actual history but ok
<simpson>
Actual history: Somebody points out that nVidia's track record isn't as good as ATI/AMD's and Intel's. You wonder why that is. We explain. You balk.
<simpson>
I get that you're invested in your card and thus in not wondering why it is that the producers of the card want to hurt and abuse you.
<ldlework>
lol my entire point is that what card is in there is basically of no consequence
<ldlework>
but you have such a good reading here..
<simpson>
I mean, would it matter if it were a Voodoo?
<ldlework>
now who's making useless equivlancies?
<simpson>
Or do you *like* the horsepower that the nVidia folks have provided?
<simpson>
Hey, Intel has about half the GPU market, and that includes both pretty powerful GPUs and pretty poor GPUs. AMD's starting to have a similar spread, and nVidia actually varies quite a bit between their desktop and embedded lines.
<ldlework>
the card goes in, i can do just about anything people are doing with cards these days, like run any game, or play with shaders and open cl. for the vast vast vast majority of people who own GPUs nothing mentioned here bears upon their experience.
<simpson>
My point is that you picked nVidia.
<ldlework>
i did not pick nvidia
<ldlework>
i couldn't *care less* which card came with my xps
<ldlework>
it's hilarious how invested you are in the strawman you hope to burn me down by
<sphalerite>
ldlework: I cared that my xps came with an nvidia card, because I couldn't use it. Enabling the driver caused the system to freeze when X started.
<ldlework>
my simple point was that this conversation is a trope and basically no one cares
* gchristensen
actually doesn't know what gpu he has
<simpson>
Literally the folks in front of you care.
<ldlework>
i have literally not had to think about what gpu i have beyond initially telling nixos to use it
<simpson>
sphalerite cares; they purchase GPUs. I care; I wrote GPU drivers. nVidia cares. Linus cares.
<ldlework>
and then i set up some aliases to prefix commands with optirun
<ldlework>
yes, you're political activists
<ldlework>
i clarified that the point was made for that class already
<sphalerite>
ldlework: I'm a political activist for not liking that my computer won't boot?
<ldlework>
in integrate what you say
<ldlework>
try the same
<ldlework>
sphalerite: you are not a software freedom activists?
<ldlework>
sphalerite: people have problems with all hardware
<simpson>
ldlework: Don't *you* run Linux on an nVidia GPU? You activist~!
<ldlework>
they only care when there is a problem
<ldlework>
yes, but that's totally incidental
<ldlework>
no idea how it makes me an activist
<sphalerite>
ldlework: I'm not sure. I care about software freedom. But that's not why I care about my computer not booting.
<joepie91>
[16:19] <samueldr> the Freedom case is more than extremism, imho, it brings in a good guarantee that your hardware will continue to work with recent software, while most closed source bits will end up hampering hardware compat with software :/
<joepie91>
concrete example of this
<simpson>
ldlework: Ah. When other people buy hardware or choose to run software, they're activists. But when you buy hardware or run software, it's incidental. That's convenient~
<ldlework>
sphalerite: i've no idea how what the things that were mentioned have to do with your computer not booting
<joepie91>
prior to the amdgpu thing, my AMD GPU ended up in the 'deprecated' list
<ldlework>
did you get it to boot
<joepie91>
meaning it no longer got new proprietary drivers
<ldlework>
was it a nvida card that just never worked with any linux
<ldlework>
what's the point
<joepie91>
as a result, I could not use it with newer Xorg, and therefore couldn't update my OS
<joepie91>
(radeon drivers insufficiently supported this card)
<ldlework>
people certainly have troubles getting amd cards to work with linux sometimes
<joepie91>
this problem is prevented nowadays because of the amdgpu change, but previously this was a big issue
<ldlework>
should they go around crusading against amd in conversations to the point of trope
<ldlework>
doubtful
<joepie91>
an issue that would not occur with open-source drivers
<sphalerite>
ldlework: yes, it booted fine without the nvidia driver.
<sphalerite>
using only the intel graphics.
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<joepie91>
cc sphalerite
<ldlework>
i have side-by-side intel and nvidia and am using linux
<sphalerite>
"it works for me"
<ldlework>
yes, because the counter point is "didn't work for me"
<simpson>
And that's great! We hope that, every generation, more and more stuff works for people.
<ldlework>
there is some moral issue here
<ldlework>
why people shouldn't use nvidia
<ldlework>
but those points don't bear upon the vast majority of gpu owners
<simpson>
My counterpoint was that nVidia is not good to their customers, and the not-goodness prevents people from using their hardware as they like.
<ldlework>
and only are perceived by those affected by software freedom issues
<joepie91>
ldlework: you're likely going to have a very unpleasant experience a few years into the future, when you suddenly can't upgrade your OS anymore because the proprietary drivers no longer support your new Xorg or Wayland or whatever, since AFAIK nVidia has made no steps to provide an open-source basis for their drivers (whereas AMD has)
<sphalerite>
the vast majority of gpu owners aren't running linux :')
<sphalerite>
joepie91: nah ldlework will have a new GPU by then
<ldlework>
joepie91: that will never happen because i'll have a new gpu
<ldlework>
yes
<ldlework>
and so will the majority of people
<ldlework>
the only people who will even understand the issue is activists
<ldlework>
the only people who mention it to each other
<simpson>
ldlework: This sounds a lot like the arguments against consumer-protection regulation: Only a tiny percentage of people are maimed/killed by faulty systems; most people are never affected.
<ldlework>
are activists
<ldlework>
lol
<joepie91>
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I mean, if your attitude is "I can just buy a new one" then yeah, I'm sure that none of this matters to you
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<joepie91>
but that's also an attitude that's not really reflective of how hardware is normally used
<ldlework>
of course it is
<joepie91>
nor really relevant to the whole discussion of practical consequences of lack of freedom
<joepie91>
no, it isn't; most people don't buy a new PC every 3 years
<ldlework>
you can put an arbitrary extreme number on it that works in your favor
<ldlework>
but it doesn't touch the truth of the matter
<joepie91>
I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about at this point
<ldlework>
most people do buy new hardware over time
<ldlework>
the percentage of the hardware buying market that faces linux limitations in propretary drivers not working with new kernels is
<joepie91>
"over time", yes. where "time" generally translates to "the old hardware literally won't work anymore"
<ldlework>
diminuative
<ldlework>
lo
<joepie91>
no, it's not
<ldlework>
ok
<sphalerite>
ldlework: I'm guessing you (most people?) don't particularly give a shit about the environment either?
<ldlework>
I'm saying this conversation has no bearing on the vast vast majority of gpu owners
<ldlework>
nothing else
<ldlework>
it doesn't deserve trope status
<ldlework>
it isn't that important
<joepie91>
your idea of "the vast majority of gpu owners" appears to be significantly techie-tinted
<sphalerite>
ldlework: is it ok for me to recommend that people don't get an nvidia GPU when they want to run linux because the last machine I got with an nvidia GPU wouldn't boot with the driver enabled?
<joepie91>
yeah, so, really not very representative of "most people" at all
<ldlework>
the idea that there is a significant majority of gpu consumers that care about anything you've said in this conversation is what's techie-tinted
<joepie91>
ldlework: I'm sorry, it's "techie-tinted" to consider that the majority of GPU users might care about their hardware literally no longer working due to software issues?
<joepie91>
how does that work, exactly?
<ldlework>
because of kernel deprecation issues?
<ldlework>
lol jesus
<ldlework>
get a grip
<joepie91>
what *do* 'normal' users care about, if not "does my hardware work"?
<simpson>
ldlework: nVidia makes up about a quarter of the GPU market but about three-quarters of the gamer GPU market; if you're not a gamer, then I'm sorry for having assumed it based on statistics.
<joepie91>
ldlework: ridicule is not a valid argument
<ldlework>
joepie91: i'm allowed to express my reaction to your disconnected argument
<joepie91>
how is it "disconnected", exactly?
<joepie91>
because I see a lot of disagreeing, and precious little reasoning
<simpson>
ldlework: That said, nVidia's customers are being ripped off thrice, once by hype-driven marketing, once by firmware-enforced binning, and once by Stallman-level issues about drivers.
<__monty__>
joepie91: Fair warning, this is a battle without victors.
<ldlework>
joepie91: it's ok when other people break form on your behalf though :)
<simpson>
ldlework: Issues that folks have complained about when using nVidia's `nvidia` driver on Linux include slow drawing and tearing with basic 2D and video.
<joepie91>
that doesn't look like an answer to my question...
<sphalerite>
__monty__: some people enjoy arguing, and I suspect ldlework and simpson might belong to that category. In that sense, they could both be considered victors :)
<ldlework>
i made a very small point that most people don't care about gpu binning or anything else that was mentioned here
<ldlework>
and the entire channel is affected
<ldlework>
but ok
<simpson>
ldlework: Maybe this means that your opinion is in the minority!
<simpson>
This isn't a bad thing, but it is a thing.
<ldlework>
or maybe this is a channel dominated by software acrivists?!
<ottidmes>
as someone with a GPU that only works with a very outdated closed source driver (in this case an edge case ATI GPU), I can confirm it sucks, and I very much do care, I can choose either having outdated software and have 3D support or have only 2D support but up to date software.
<ldlework>
consider your aggressive tone and need to dominate the argument
<sphalerite>
ldlework: I would be curious about your answer to my last question?
<ldlework>
sphalerite: now that you've accused me of bad faith and just wanting to argue?
<__monty__>
I wonder whether intel's embedded GPUs will dethrone nVidia any time soon, for average consumers. I think they're a more significant threat to nVidia than RTG if current hardware's any indication, sadly.
<samueldr>
__monty__: they may make a move withing the next ~2 years to discrete GPUs
<simpson>
ldlework: Well, yeah. You're like a walking example from the alt-right playbook.
* ldlework
blinks
<joepie91>
__monty__: I'd be happy to see Intel building more serious GPUs, I just hope it doesn't go like last time where they have to license third-party design stuff leading to no open-source drivers...
<simpson>
I'm not sure whether you *have* good faith. You seem to think that my genuinely-held political positions are trolls and strawmen.
<samueldr>
yeah, hoping it uses the same driver lineage as the current intel gpu drivers, fully open
<simpson>
Further, you seem to be offended that people want to own and use their hardware. Great! Be offended.
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<gchristensen>
may I suggest we move this topic, for people who want to participate, to #nixos-chat-gpus
<joepie91>
__monty__: I'm actually wondering whether AMD's competition on CPUs might drive Intel to diversify into discrete GPUs...
<sphalerite>
ldlework: where did I accuse you of bad faith? What I said was just an idea of why you might want to continue discussing it
<ldlework>
Activism was explicitly discussed and associated with.
<joepie91>
__monty__: since AMD is currently killing their cash cow :P
<__monty__>
Oh, I wasn't talking about discrete gpus though. I'm wondering about when embedded will be enough for everyone but the most avid gamers.
<joepie91>
__monty__: aye, my first statement was about GPUs in general, including embedded
<joepie91>
gchristensen: I've already pretty much detached from the GPU driver discussion since I'm not getting any actionable answers :) this is just idle pondering about Intel's business strategies..
<ldlework>
if i had claimed someone was associated with racist political groups
<ldlework>
i would be banned
<gchristensen>
well, I think my request stands
<__monty__>
Considered and denied, gchristensen ; )
<ldlework>
for the record, i'm not at all alt-right, I grew up in the american mid-west, illinois, a blue state, consider myself classically liberal, believe in welfare and other social programs, believe in equality of all etc
<gchristensen>
wtf, where did alt-right come from?
<ldlework>
but thanks for making me defend against being a racist simpson, you prick
<sphalerite>
yeah I agree the alt-right comment was unnecessary
<ldlework>
i have no idea what that link is but it just doesn't justify what you said
<ldlework>
everyone in here is obviously on the side of software freedom, and said it to contextualize why this conversation is particularly important to those in here, not to degrade anyone's character
<simpson>
gchristensen, sphalerite: "The Alt-Right Playbook" is a series of videos which deconstruct and examine patterns of argument common on the Internet, particularly those which start out apolitical and become political.
<ldlework>
Yeah, that totally justifies your accusation
<ldlework>
You couldn't say "You're making something apolitical, more political than it needs to be" without accusing me of associating with racists and neo-nazis
<ldlework>
good job
<__monty__>
ldlework: Uhm, where did simpson accuse you? You brought up racism all on your own afaict.
<gchristensen>
please stop
<ldlework>
09:44 <simpson> ldlework: Well, yeah. You're like a walking example from the alt-right playbook.
<joepie91>
I feel like this discussion can't possibly go anywhere positive
<__monty__>
ldlework: Ah. Missed it.
<__monty__>
joepie91: You see, my original comment was about preventing something similar to what happened. Guess I'm a prophet : )
<mdash>
huh, so nvidia gpus are racist. glad i didn't buy one
<ottidmes>
lejonet: I am curious about your setup, you mentioned you have been "running vfio vga-passthrough for over a year", did you use it for a Windows VM like elvishjerricco was setting up? And did you too use a Nvidia GPU?
<gchristensen>
this conversation devolved and became quite unfairly accusatory, I'm really disappointed. it isn't what we're about.
<lejonet>
ottidmes: I do use it, still, for a Windows VM, but not with a nVidia GPU, but a AMD RX 580
<ottidmes>
lejonet: and how is the overhead, would you recommend it if I was using Windows 90% for gaming?
<ldlework>
ottidmes: you mean gaming through the VM?
<ottidmes>
lejonet: I wonder if software like https://parsecgaming.com/ would still work in such a setup. A friend of mine is using it to access his desktop remotely, so he can have great gaming experience without needing an especially good GPU on the laptop
<ottidmes>
ldlework: yeah, just curious how well it performs, to see if I could consider such a setup when I finally buy a new desktop
<ldlework>
would be interesting to run nixos on my gaming rig and just have windows in a VM :P
<ldlework>
probably not suitable for VR
<lejonet>
ottidmes: I haven't "hard-core" benchmarked it, but I'm not missing many % of performance if you go from general benchmarks, I get maybe 97-98% of the performance honestly
<ottidmes>
lejonet: yeah it probably has some limitations, but I am curious to know what those limitations are
<lejonet>
and yes, I mainly have the windows VM for gaming :)
<ldlework>
nice
<ottidmes>
lejonet: awesome, good to know!
<lejonet>
ottidmes: well, the main limitation is that I have 2 graphic cards in my rigg even tho I really only ever use one of em, in the VM, for anything but regular desktop
<lejonet>
But as far as windows in the VM is concerned, its connected to a fully blown RX 580, so VR would most likely work fine
<lejonet>
to be able to play I have hooked up a cable between the passthrough'ed GPU and my middle screen, so I need to switch input to access the monitor of the VM
<ldlework>
even on my 1080 some games drop below the 90fps and timewarp and friends kick in, so basically any overhead can be painful for VR. But it sounds like you're confident there's very little so it would definitely work for games where you have some margin.
<ottidmes>
lejonet: my current desktop is a Intel pre-onboard GPU, and the best GPU I own is the only one able to handle my 4k monitor, so I will have to wait to either buy a new desktop or GPU, to be able to really test such a setup
<lejonet>
ottidmes: so if you can manage with 2 graphic cards (I have a RX 570 for the host system, mainly because any lower cards didn't have 3 DP outputs)
<lejonet>
ldlework: Yeah, the "benchmark" I've used is deus ex: mankind divided and the built-in benchmark in the game
<ldlework>
in VR?!
<lejonet>
not in VR no lol :P
<ldlework>
oh god
<ldlework>
my eyes were wide i was super exicted
<ldlework>
what did you think of that game anyway
<lejonet>
The RX 580 barely reaches 60 fps average with high settings on 1920x1080, I am horrified to think what the framerate would be in VR xD
<ldlework>
heh
<lejonet>
Sadly, I've hardly played the actual game... real life took over xD
<ldlework>
it was not bad
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<ldlework>
i had fun
<lejonet>
I loved human revolution, and the maybe 1h of mankind divided that I've played
<lejonet>
I like the style of the game, both game mechanics wise and visually
<ldlework>
me too, i loved the visuals so much i took screenshots throughout the game lol https://imgur.com/a/orwxJ
<lejonet>
ottidmes: if the CPU side of the 2400G wasn't so "weak" (compared to a 2500/2600), if you only have 1 monitor you could always go that route
<lejonet>
ldlework: I came across the "concept album" of both human revolution and mankind divided last year and just had to buy it lol
<lejonet>
mdash: their AI was top-notch for the time, where they would actually "search" for you if they lost sight, and even behind items and stuff
<lejonet>
ldlework: hahaha, do eet!
<gchristensen>
graphics are getting too good these days
<gchristensen>
sometimes I can't tell what is real :/
<lejonet>
gchristensen: indeed
<lejonet>
Nowdays they usually even get shadowing and lightning correctly, that was usually the give aways with "nearly like real life" games before, like crysis
<gchristensen>
yeah :(
<ldlework>
gchristensen: there is this game called The Solus Project. It's a VR game that is basically what you'd get if you mixed The Legend of Zelda with Lost the TV show and put it in good looking VR. It sounds fun.
<ldlework>
But it is actually exhausting!
<lejonet>
ldlework: I've not really bought into the VR concept yet, mainly due to the fact that I don't have the space to properly utilize it xD
<ldlework>
To constantly encountering dramatic and effective ecounters from crazy monsters, to epic tombs, to insane weather, to high cliffs.
<ldlework>
lejonet: I was waiting my whole life.
<lejonet>
ldlework: I love the idea and such, I just don't have the space for it :( (nor time... really)
<mdash>
lejonet: ha, what's funny is that a postmortem I read for the game said they regretted using the default Unreal Engine AI because they had to mod it so heavily
<lejonet>
mdash: I can imagine xD
<ldlework>
I learned how to fly and operate the weapon systems of the Su-25t Frogfoot fighter Jet, I've participated dogfights in outer space, I've won dirt rally championships, I've taken fractal drugs with strangers in impossibly fantastic underground nightclubs, I've cooperatively built sculptures with friends, I've toured all the best places on the Earth
<lejonet>
ldlework: that is the coolest part of VR honestly
<gchristensen>
what is this, OASIS?
<lejonet>
I love the real life implications that the VR tech is having for people, especially those disabled and different-abled
<ldlework>
there's so much stuff to do already
<lejonet>
gchristensen: if only.. :P
<ldlework>
yes you can see the pixels if you cross your eyes and focus on the thing right infront of your eyes
<ldlework>
but your eyes don't naturally do that
<ldlework>
and when you're on a cliff side during a tornado running low on food rations...
<ldlework>
you straight up don't even percieve that stuff
<lejonet>
mhm
<ldlework>
its worth going to a best buy and at least trying out :)
<lejonet>
oh I have tried it, I have a friend that both have the space and the VR gear, so I've tried it :)
<gchristensen>
I'm scared to
<ldlework>
when i brought it to the family, all the old people absolutely could not get over Google Earth VR
<lejonet>
and if I had the space to spare, I would have it :P
<ldlework>
They would drag each other back to the VR from all over the house for hours
<ldlework>
As they each discovered places they had been
<lejonet>
^^
<ldlework>
and had memories about
<ldlework>
we cried so many times, no joke
<lejonet>
gchristensen: have someone you like hold your hand? :)
<ldlework>
old people also absolutely love the fake rollercoasters
<gchristensen>
I'm scared I'll get hooked :P
<ldlework>
there is this app that basically no one knows about called Titans of Space 2
<ldlework>
it's built up like it is this educational thing about the solar system
<ldlework>
the planets
<ldlework>
and for the large part that is what it is
<ldlework>
but at the end there is this feature it doesn't advertise
<joepie91>
[18:01] <ldlework> but your eyes don't naturally do that
<ldlework>
it says "Before you go do you want to learn about some of the stars we know about to?
<joepie91>
what hardware was this on?
<ldlework>
I've tried vive and rift
<joepie91>
because I tried a Vive at some point I believe, and I found the pixelation massively problematic
<ldlework>
it's a bit worse on rift
<ldlework>
err
<ldlework>
vive
<lejonet>
gchristensen: haha, fair point honestly :P
<joepie91>
ah, hm
<ldlework>
joepie91: tried it for how long?
<samueldr>
can't wait (if it isn't already) for when reading "normal sized" text at arm's length is fine
<joepie91>
ldlework: not that long, but it was actively preventing immersion for me
<ldlework>
like if you're standing in the store critiquing the hardware for the first time you're gonna notice everything
<joepie91>
it felt like I was looking through a grate constantly
<ldlework>
but if you buy one eventually you hit the hours and hours mark and your brain does things
<joepie91>
never quite able to see things clearly
<cransom>
i should probably try it sometime just to see if the motion sickness kicks in. because that would be a deal breaker if i wear a headset for 20 minutes followed by an hour of dry heaving.
<ldlework>
nah
<gchristensen>
cransom: it'd be *VR* dry heaving!
<ldlework>
with regards to motion sickeness my perception of public perceptions is that the media overblew this facet early on and not as many people are as serverely affected as reported
<ldlework>
that said, some applications don't implement acceletation in their locomation well and will give anyone sickness
<cransom>
gchristensen: so immersive. it's like your are *really* vomiting.
<joepie91>
ldlework: this wasn't in a store btw, it was trying out somebody elses VR setup, so I went in relatively uncritical :P
<ldlework>
google VR is a classic example
<ldlework>
joepie91: even so, you're reporting it as unusable
<ldlework>
but its been a success
<ldlework>
think about driving
<joepie91>
not unusable, just not pleasant
<ldlework>
after a few minutes you don't even see the sides of the road
* joepie91
doesn't drive
<ldlework>
it's very much like that
<ldlework>
but... you can imagine.
<joepie91>
I mean, I have a general idea of how humans adapt to continuous environments, yes
<joepie91>
but it certainly felt too severe for that to happen, for me
<joepie91>
:p
<joepie91>
I had no motion sickness issues at all though
<gchristensen>
that is okay, maybe next revision
<ldlework>
joepie91: sure i'm not saying it wasn't extremely bad for you for some reason, just that given the success people are by and large not experiencing blocking SDE effects
<ldlework>
i read that someone wanted to fix motion sickeness with a prosthetic you wear on your ear that sends electrical signals into your ear
<lejonet>
I had some mild uneasiness in one of the games I tried, can't remember the name, but that was mainly due to a veeeery poor implementation of locomotion
<ldlework>
i tried to imagine getting the same people who i got to try it before to try it again with that :P
<joepie91>
ldlework: sure, not saying they do
<joepie91>
just explaining why I asked about hardware :)
<ldlework>
joepie91: i think its objectively worse on the vive in any case, like measurements wise
<ldlework>
oh there is this game
<gchristensen>
there was this nintendo switch game where the world rotated around your character as you moved across the terrain and it had me dry heaving after a few minutes. I still couldn't get a refund :(
<ldlework>
O_O
<ldlework>
oh in 2d?
<gchristensen>
yea
<ldlework>
hehe
<gchristensen>
I wish I could remember the name.
* ldlework
huggles gchristensen
<ldlework>
there is this game called Hotdogs Horseshoes and Handgrenades and the premise is that they've implemented a few hundred real life firearms very closely to how each gun works in real life
<ldlework>
it's pretty awesome, it's like the matrix, you can just spawn guns from various times in history
<ldlework>
and try them out in a shooting range or whatever
<lejonet>
gchristensen: yeah, there are a few games that try to screw with your perception that are usually very... annoying and at times unease to play
<ldlework>
but it has this mode which is strucuted much like a random dungeon crawler, like nethack, where there are items, guns and other powerups randomly around the level and you have to go deeper and deeper
<ldlework>
but it's VR, and the enemies are these vicious nightmare hotdog creatures
<ldlework>
that also have realistic firearms
<ldlework>
i have never ever ever been scared by any horror game or horror movie (psychological thrillers fuck me up though)
<ldlework>
but oh my god, the absolute terror of trying to load a shotgun in VR as a mob of insane hotdogs approach you...
<ldlework>
*shudder*
<ldlework>
that game some how makes you truly fear like you are in danger
<lejonet>
just the fact that they are hotdogs would probably get me killed waaaay more than I would like to admit xD
<lejonet>
I'd die laughing
<ldlework>
lol they're smart too!
<gchristensen>
oh man, just looking at a picture of the game brought it back.
<lejonet>
ldlework: even better lol, smart hotdogs, oh boy xD
<lejonet>
ldlework: if someone tried to eat me, I'd probably try to kill em too ^^
<ldlework>
gchristensen: oh i could see how that could be nauseating jeeze
<ldlework>
lejonet: haha
<ldlework>
seriously though, if you told 13 year old me that soon enough I would have unlimited virtual paintball (and space flight, and ...) in my living room I would be quite excited :P
<lejonet>
gchristensen: oh wow, interesting concept, but I can definitively see how it causes uneasiness
<ldlework>
you can imagine what my inspiration was :)
<lejonet>
^^
<lejonet>
its spongebob, isn't it? ;)
<ldlework>
Maybe for the release date.... "75 Years Later..."
<ldlework>
game-development is a fricken fractal
<lejonet>
it is indeed
<sphalerite>
I didn't really get motion sickness as such from VR when I tried it, but I did almost fall over several times
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<lejonet>
sphalerite: there is definitively an adjustment period before your brain is okay with it
<sphalerite>
I'd probably prefer it with an omnidirectional treadmill :p
<lejonet>
Yeah, it helps the "immersion" bit quite a lot I can imagine :)
<ottidmes>
sphalerite: the exercise machines of the future ;)
<lejonet>
ottidmes: I definitively wouldn't mind :P
<sphalerite>
getting chased by zombies really motivates you to run
<ottidmes>
lol
<lejonet>
braaaains!
<ottidmes>
a lot more motivating than standing on a threadmill in some gym, imagine that in the feature when replying "ow, I gamed for 5 hours yesterday" that the response would be, "what good of you!" :P
<ottidmes>
* future
<lejonet>
Mhm
<lejonet>
I like the omnidirectional theardmill, geared towards shooting games which had, besides the threadmill, a way to simulate different climates when it came to temperature at least, AND a soft air gun rigged to shot you from the direction you were shot, in-game :P
<ottidmes>
lejonet: lol, that would motivate you not to get shot even in games were it not matters much (e.g. shield regen)
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<lejonet>
ottidmes: mhm
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<ottidmes>
lejonet: I have seen some videos of such a threadmill, were they even sprayed water on you to simulate certain things, not sure whether I like that feature :P
<lejonet>
ottidmes: could've been the same "system" that I'm talking about :)
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<infinisil>
Wanting to delete a single /nix/store path, been running for like 10 minutes, because it's the first time I'm running garbage collections in like forever
<infinisil>
That might take a while, especially because ZFS isn't very fast with deletes, it goes to a HDD, and I just downloaded all emacs packages sources yesterday
<gchristensen>
you could just erase the superblock on your FS :D
<infinisil>
That certainly would be fast, buut..
* lejonet
throws infinisil disk into a degausser
<lejonet>
problem solved :D
<infinisil>
Is that some advanced math joke? I don't get it lol
<lejonet>
infinisil: nah, degausser is a fancy machine that kills mechanical disks with a very strong emp "blast"
<gchristensen>
actually kills them, not just erases them
<lejonet>
Yep, baaam dead!
<infinisil>
Ohh
<lejonet>
Its quite fun to fool around with em but you have to be sure you're erasing the right drive because well... there is really no going back once its done xD
<lejonet>
control track, alignment track etc, is completely gone if the degausser is a proper one
<gchristensen>
a typical datacenter well degauss a drive, and then punch a hole through the platters, then throw it in the garbage
<lejonet>
Yep
<lejonet>
"Real OPS"(TM) uses thermite!
<gchristensen>
whatever gets that hole punched
<infinisil>
I think I finally found the tool I should use to make sure nobody ever sees my minecraft let's play ever again
<lejonet>
gchristensen: thermite makes em crispy tho :) (and its a surprisingly bad method for destroying harddisk platters actually)
<lejonet>
infinisil: you found the real internet bleach?
<gchristensen>
lejonet: huh, I thought high heat would have disrupted the magnetism
<infinisil>
lejonet: The degausser i mean
<lejonet>
gchristensen: the platters are surprisingly resilient to heat, the alloy used for them (I still haven't figured out what the hell they use) is... really, really, really cool
<lejonet>
infinisil: haha, yeah :) a sane degausser is "surprisingly" cheap honestly
<gchristensen>
nice
<lejonet>
like 4k$ or so
<__monty__>
Sounds like the killer application of VR would be fencing simulation : >
<lejonet>
Fruit ninja VR is addictively hilarious and fun
<gchristensen>
anyone who needs a fencing "simulator" can come to my brother's ranch and help us put up fencing.
<infinisil>
__monty__: I mean, I don't like putting up fences all that much, but whatever floats your boat I guess
<gchristensen>
^.^
<lejonet>
I prefer the type of fencing that requires a sword.. :P
<lejonet>
But hey, farming simulator is getting into e-sports, so maybe the fencing simulator could be a subset of that?
<lejonet>
10^38 is 3.552713678800501e+23 times larger than 2^48
<infinisil>
I wrote that message myself, made it sound as discouraging as possible :P
<gchristensen>
s/Use with caution!/Do not use it!/
<lejonet>
^^
<infinisil>
Well, there are uses for it
<lejonet>
s/"Just this one time"/"NO!"/
<infinisil>
A good usecase for it I think is parsers, e.g. a proper yaml parser could be used in nix that way
<infinisil>
Not sure why anybody would need a yaml parser though tbh
<lejonet>
at least for a nix derivation
<lejonet>
I know, lets use a yaml-backed db to store the paths to all the files of derivations!
<lejonet>
Then we'd have a use-case for it :D
<joepie91>
"All we have to do is simply duplicate the vertices. It’s so “simple” in fact that I couldn’t find any explanation of what it meant to duplicate the vertices or why that fixed anything. "
<joepie91>
graphics programming in a nutshell
<lejonet>
Hahaha
<lejonet>
very nonsensical out of context, probably even more nonsensical with context?
<{^_^}>
the-pr-with-initially-1152-new-nixos-options defined
<infinisil>
So I don't forget
<joepie91>
lejonet: and now that I actually understood the problem, it was indeed fairly trivial to fix... https://shy-pug-92.localtunnel.me
<lejonet>
joepie91: yeah, and the reason why it happens makes perfect sense, the shader wants to resolve how to paint each point, which means that if you have more than 1 vector in the point, you normalize it to 1 vector and then paint it
<elvishjerricco>
I hate how often stdenv changes. I update NixOS on the stable channel once every month or two, and it always requires a mass rebuild of *everything*.
<infinisil>
Yeah..
<infinisil>
Maybe we could make a branch for stdenv, and only merge it into master on a new release
<elvishjerricco>
infinisil: I don't mind the changes on unstable. I just don't see why stdenv changes get backported to the stable channel so often.
<samueldr>
are we talking about changes to stdenv or updates to dependencies that change a bunch of stuff? because I sure want the bugfixes and security fixes in stable
<samueldr>
a quick `git log pkgs/stdenv/` shows few changes since the release, but this may not be the whole picture
<elvishjerricco>
samueldr: Hm... Maybe you're right. But what would cause a whole-world rebuild other than stdenv?
<samueldr>
things like openssl, glibc I guess
<samueldr>
icu too maybe?
<infinisil>
Ah yeah..
<samueldr>
there are a few usual suspects which will look like the whole world
<samueldr>
though I do see a couple "late" backports of things in stdenv which I'm not entirely sure if they should have been backported
<samueldr>
I think they're no-ops except in the specified cases though
<gchristensen>
also it is a bit dangerous to wait a few months between updates, elvishjerricco
<samueldr>
any changes here `nix-store -q --requisites $(nix-instantiate -A bash)` would likely look like a whole world rebuild (if I'm not mistaken on that bash's identity) since bash is used to build derivations (I may have picked the wrong bash)
<__monty__>
gchristensen: What's the danger? Is it like arch? "How long did you not update your system?" "Two weeks." "Well then it's your own damn fault, figure it out yourself."
<gchristensen>
the danger is in not having a patched system