gchristensen changed the topic of #nixos-chat to: NixOS but much less topical || https://logs.nix.samueldr.com/nixos-chat
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<iqubic> What is does a diff of a diff look like?
<gchristensen> +- foo
<gchristensen> + bar
<gchristensen> (that is wrong)
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<colemickens> Any opinions? - should I use iscsid or fujita/tgt?
<gchristensen> never heard of fujita or tgt
<infinisil> > asciiquarium.meta.description
<{^_^}> "Enjoy the mysteries of the sea from the safety of your own terminal!"
<infinisil> We have this in master now, pretty fancy!
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<drakonis> fun
<drakonis> if i had a big screen i'd put that on
<gchristensen> hah
<drakonis> i'd totally leave it looping on my wall
<gchristensen> you can scroll it
<infinisil> :O
<infinisil> gchristensen: Well, it just makes it speed up for me when i scroll
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<elvishjerricco> Smash bros ultimate has stolen many hours from NixOS. I was supposed to setup my backup system tonight :P
<samueldr> NixOS has stolen many hours from smash bros ultimate here :)
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<samueldr> just this week I unlocked every characters, while I got the game day one
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<samueldr> out of 3494 attributes depending on gdk_pixbuf, 2125 may need to have wrapGAppsHook added to them, of them only a small handful verified to exhibit issues immediately, one to seemingly work until it doesn't, and this excludes any qtbase-5.12 packages
<samueldr> since qtbase-5.12 depends somehow on gdk_pixbuf
<samueldr> (most probably some integration support with the gnome look and feel)
<samueldr> qemu is the one that seemingly works until it doesn't; running a qemu test vm, graphical, from an unstable checkout works, the winow shows up, but opening a menu segfaults
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<elvishjerricco> There's too much to learn about making pizza. I wanna learn both New York style and Chicago style, but both are very in depth.
<ar1a> elvishjerricco: learn italian style pizza
<elvishjerricco> ar1a: my pizza info bandwidth is limited :P I'm confident that Chicago style is a priority, but New York style is less certain
<ar1a> theyre both bastardisations >:(
<etu> ar1a:
<etu> ar1a:
<etu> Meh
<etu> Missclicks
<ar1a> etu:
<ar1a> etu:
<etu> ar1a++
<{^_^}> ar1a's karma got increased to 1
<ar1a> ooooooh thanks
<elvishjerricco> ar1a: to be fair, Chicago style is barely pizza at all :P But it's still my favorite for sure.
<ar1a> pizza casserole
<elvishjerricco> Yea
<elvishjerricco> So good though :P
<Arahael> I'm trying to figure out how to delete these two directories:
<Arahael> I have two questions: 1) Why can't I even look at them, and 2) How do I ultimately do so and then delete them?
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<MichaelRaskin> Arahael: you cannot look, because they have been touched by Android, and Android is cursed by Google
<MichaelRaskin> You can "chmod u+rwX -R sdcard?"
<ar1a> what's that do
<MichaelRaskin> ar1a: there is sdcard0 directory copied from Android that is unreadable for the owner
<infinisil> What the hell, didn't youtube work on their recommendations alg?
<gchristensen> did you get WP'd?
<infinisil> Today's recommendations are clickbait after clickbait, nothing even remotely relevant
<MichaelRaskin> They worked, and concluded clickbait is more profitable
<MichaelRaskin> What is WP'ing?
<gchristensen> youtube's algo tends to direct people to white power / white supremacy videos
<MichaelRaskin> Because engagement!
<gchristensen> their algo is terrible. you watch one dell tech support video and all of a sudden they think you'd rather watch those than someone you've been watching for months.
<MichaelRaskin> Look, it is Google, they didn't even care to handle XMPP presence remotely correctly in GChat
<ar1a> lol infinisil just wait till youtube starts thinking you're a nazi and recommends you a million ben shapiro owning the libtards and the golden one videos
<infinisil> Lol
<infinisil> Alright so i told them "Not interested" on like 20 of those clickbait videos now, let's see if they get the gist (they won't, but it's worth a try)
* jasongrossman recommends hooktube
<infinisil> Oh un
<infinisil> Um, I'm at fault lol
<gchristensen> not logged in?
<infinisil> I was logged into a different youtube accound
<gchristensen> :D
<infinisil> Well, it's still tons of clickbait.. but yeah, probably not on my actual active account
<infinisil> Now I know what people see in recommendations when they don't have a big watch history
<gchristensen> it is horrifying
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<tilpner> gchristensen: Do you want to ban that murd3r person maybe?
<tilpner> (And how about adding current release managers to the channel access list?)
<infinisil> Saying it again, I think having another one or two people with op wouldn't hurt
<tilpner> infinisil: There are others than grahamc: goodwill, kmicu, and niksnut
<tilpner> But goodwill is idle for 73 days, and kmicu defected to GNU c.c
<tilpner> MichaelRaskin: Don't give them the satisfaction of showing attention where they can see it
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<infinisil> tilpner: Yeah, what I really meant was active ops
<MichaelRaskin> Should we give up and go beg on #freenode ?
<ldlework> Don't let it affect you and patiently wait until gchristensen gets back. It's just text, who care about the person and what they said. Soon enough they'll be removed. No biggie :)
<MichaelRaskin> If it were not #nixos but something more out of the way, I would consider out-trolling, but in #nixos meh
<ldlework> They might have well not have said anything or even exist because soon they'll be gone.
<ldlework> I've been an emacs user for like 8 years or so now
<ldlework> And I'm writing a vscode extension in typescript! :O
<ldlework> It's actually been quite a joy
<ar1a> damn of course i part #nixos and miss the troll
<__monty__> Wasn't a troll, just a spammer.
<ar1a> ah
<ar1a> tilpner: defected to GNU?
<__monty__> Guix I assumed.
<tilpner> Right, they are online in #guix, but not in #nixos
<__monty__> Is there any work that'd make guixpkgs compatible with nix?
<__monty__> Would be kinda cool if the repositories could merge halfway.
<tilpner> I don't think that sounds practical
<__monty__> No?
<tilpner> But they seem to have an importer that can import Nix packages, somehow
<__monty__> It just seems like there's a lot of work that's gonna be done twice because the repos provide many of the same packages.
<tilpner> Twice? What about Debian, Arch, and the RPM distros?
<tilpner> And Alpine, Gentoo, etc.
<__monty__> Yeah, but those don't do enough work to make packages almost drop-in replacements.
<tilpner> You're right in that there's a lot of duplication
<ar1a> dont forget slackware
<iqubic> ldlework: How could you abandon emacs ever?
<ar1a> iqubic++
<{^_^}> iqubic's karma got increased to 1
<iqubic> Thanks.
<ar1a> emacs for life
<ar1a> literally, i made a deal with stallman
<ldlework> I haven't abandoned it :)
<iqubic> Something I learned the hard way was: Trying to increase your own karma lowers it by 1, and yes, it can go negative.
<ldlework> But there is only one debugger implemented for Tabletop Simulator's Lua, and that's in VS Code
<ldlework> So I'm porting the Atom extension over to VS Code which does all sorts of other useful stuff for TTS development
<ldlework> And I'm introducing Typescript transpiling
<iqubic> You know what... That's a great reason to do this.
<ldlework> so hopefully soon people will be able to develop TTS mods in TypeScript!
<iqubic> What are you planning on making in TTS?
<ldlework> A quality mod for playing Go
<ldlework> Currently there is just a dead board with dead stones and the physics engine
<ldlework> Not really a mod, but just the models
<iqubic> And, would you be willing to share the TypeScript transpiler with me when you are done?
<ldlework> So I'm going to make a legit mod which records the game history, supports scrubbing back and forth
<ldlework> That's already available I didn't write it I'm just integrating it
<ldlework> oops
<__monty__> Will you support im/exporting games?
<iqubic> I see. Will you share the VSCode extensions when you are done with those?
<ar1a> iqubic: so the sum of all karma is 0? thats... strange
<iqubic> no.
<iqubic> iqubic++
<{^_^}> iqubic's karma got decreased to 0
<iqubic> Like that.
<iqubic> So if you want to undo that, you can. But I can't.
<MichaelRaskin> MiсhaelRaskin++
<{^_^}> MiсhaelRaskin's karma got increased to 5
<iqubic> How??
<iqubic> What are youding that I'm not?
<MichaelRaskin> Magic not available to everyone
<iqubic> I see.
<MichaelRaskin> (it is actually available to you)
<tilpner> tilpner++
<iqubic> Huh?
<ar1a> ar1a++
<{^_^}> ar1a's karma got decreased to 0
<ar1a> ar1a++
<iqubic> What sorcery is this?
<{^_^}> ar1a's karma got decreased to -1
<ar1a> D: NO
<MichaelRaskin> ar1a++
<{^_^}> ar1a's karma got increased to 0
<iqubic> how did you do the clever thing to increase your own karma?
<MichaelRaskin> Things are not what they seem to be
<iqubic> I can tell you typed something that wasn't your own username.
<ldlework> __monty__: didn't understand your question
<ldlework> oh you mean like SGF files into the Go mod?
<ldlework> hell yeah
<ldlework> I want to have a Joseki dictionary and have a Tsumego engine
<ldlework> I wanna make it good for playing, but also teaching
<ldlework> What's nice about TTS vs like, a Go website, is that you can point and move your pointer around in realtime when talking about the board and stuff and that's incredibly useful in a review.
<ar1a> MichaelRaskin: probably used zero width space
<MichaelRaskin> Nope
<MichaelRaskin> When I said that magic is not available to everyone, I put a more literal sense in these words
<MichaelRaskin> It is available to you, though
<iqubic> IDK what you did.
<iqubic> Will you just tell me?
<MichaelRaskin> You can just copy my message and analyze it
<ar1a> im doing that now
<ar1a> he used unicode
<iqubic> Did he really?
<MichaelRaskin> Not any interesting Unicode, just Cyrillic letters
<simpson> iqubic: See for yourself!
<ar1a> instead of the c there's 0xd181
<{^_^}> https://github.com/NixOS/nixpkgs/pull/441 (by ierton, 5 years ago, merged): Udisks2 xfce
<ar1a> bad facebot
<samueldr> MichaelRaskin: usage of characters outside of ASCII is prohibited, you will be fined
<samueldr> ;)
<iqubic> iqubiс++
<samueldr> (this is left open for abuse, as ASCII also has fun things)
<tilpner> But why does the bot allow that homoglyph?
<iqubic> Well, that didn't work for some reason.
<ar1a> аr1a++
<tilpner> It should require that nick to have spoken recently
<samueldr> tilpner: oh right
<iqubic> Can I get this to work?
<ar1a> strange, not working for me either!
<samueldr> though
<MichaelRaskin> samueldr: special-casing of ASCII is prohibited, you will be prosecuted by Unicode Consortsium
<tilpner> Does it do some weird normalisation, or did you /nick to it?
<iqubic> iqubiс++
<samueldr> MichaelRaskin: :)
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<infinisil> Huh, did somebody crash the bot??
<ar1a> #411
<{^_^}> https://github.com/NixOS/nixpkgs/pull/411 (by ocharles, 5 years ago, merged): gnome-themes-standard: Initial expression
<ar1a> nope
<tilpner> infinisil: They're putting in homoglyphs
<MichaelRaskin> ar1а++
<ar1a> bullied
<infinisil> Ah lol
<simpson> ar1a--
<ar1a> more bullying
<samueldr> I'm thinking the one that worked already had karma, which made it a working example
<MichaelRaskin> MiсhaelRaskin++
<{^_^}> MiсhaelRaskin's karma got increased to 6
<iqubic> But why does that particular homoglyph work for MichaelRaskin and not me or ar1a?
<tilpner> "It should require that nick to have spoken recently"
<MichaelRaskin> Unclear
<MichaelRaskin> I never used that mix as a speaking nick
<iqubic> Weird...
<iqubic> I'm so confused now.
<iqubic> iqubic++
<{^_^}> iqubic's karma got decreased to -1
<iqubic> See, that fails.
<tilpner> MichaelRaskin: You may have initialised that counter before infinisil implemented that check
<iqubic> Also, can someone give me a karma?
<MichaelRaskin> iqubic++
<{^_^}> iqubic's karma got increased to 0
<simpson> iqubic--
<iqubic> Nope. postfix decrementin doesn't work.
<iqubic> ++iqubic
<iqubic> And prefix operators are just a no go.
<MichaelRaskin> iqubic+=1
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<iqubic> TIL: Recursive symlinks are a thing. As in a folder can be a symlink to something higher up in the directory hierarchy.
<infinisil> tilpner: MichaelRaskin: Yeah, while migrating the state from the old way, I might have moved over some names that weren't actually used
<iqubic> Oh. I see.
<iqubic> So the magic isn't going to work for everyone?
<__monty__> iqubic: Well, it doesn't work at all, right?
<__monty__> @karma MichaelRaskin
<__monty__> .karma MichaelRaskin
<__monty__> Anyway, my point is that you're not actually affecting *your* karma. Just that of a nick that *looks* similar to yours.
<MichaelRaskin> It seems to work for exactly one version of mangling my nickname
<MichaelRaskin> Yes, indeed
<__monty__> You could just /nick homographnick say hey /nick yournick and from then on the "trick" would work.
<MichaelRaskin> Not sure if it would be enough, maybe?
<infinisil> Yeah that would work
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<MichaelRaskin> And of course one can do that in #bottest and even request some expression evaluation
<infinisil> Request expression evaluation? What's this got to do with karma
<__monty__> |-|aXx
<MichaelRaskin> Just to say something that looks natural without getting into a conversation
<MichaelRaskin> If you do nick changes in the same room as the rest of the trick, it might send notifications to other people present
<__monty__> Oh, yeah, you'd have to leave the channel first.
<MichaelRaskin> Or connect with another client
<MichaelRaskin> (and that's how you convert any conversation into a small Unicode Awareness Day)
<ar1a> insert eevee post on unicode here
<__monty__> Now we only need to work i18n bidir in there
<joepie91> ar1a: hmm... are you the aria I know?
<ar1a> joepie91: don't know, which aria do you know?
<ar1a> gotta give me more info than that man
<ar1a> im australian if that helps
<joepie91> ar1a: ah, I think that's a no :P
<joepie91> intentionally not giving much info, heh, as that aria disappeared for a while and I don't know whether it was intentional or not
<joepie91> (in another channel)
<ar1a> joepie91: like, query me if you want to be sure. there's not too many arias in the world
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* aleph- springs up
* joepie91 appears
<aleph-> But yeah lovely man
<aleph-> Well lovel-ish
* ar1a can use /me too
<aleph-> Just very for personal freedom
* joepie91 /me
<joepie91> aleph-: ahh, the at-the-cost-of-anothers-freedom type, or?
<aleph-> Ehhhhh sorta I think?
<aleph-> Where as my other grandfather we can't tell if he's kinda a Nazi
<aleph-> Like he loves Poles and Russians
<aleph-> But he's made some comments about the Fatherland
<aleph-> Tons of fun I tell yah :P
<joepie91> seems more soviet-y
<joepie91> fun heritage you have there, though :P
<aleph-> Well he was born in Nazi Germany
<aleph-> Back in... '41?
<aleph-> Ish
<aleph-> Or it might have been '40
<aleph-> We were actually quite rich up until war time. Even during the depression after German Reparations via Versailles
<MichaelRaskin> So, will new glibc bootstrapping procedure include a musl Python?
<elvishjerricco> MichaelRaskin: why would that be?
<ldlework> Anyone down for a game of Go?
<ldlework> real casual.
<aleph-> I mean I'm writing some Go
<aleph-> That count? :P
<ldlework> nope :)
<ldlework> i watched a Nick Sibicky lecture yesterday about how 3/3 invasions have worked historically, to how we now understand them post-AlphaGo. It was very interesting to learn how the computers favor or prioritize influence vs direct territory.
<ldlework> In Go, there are these known progressions in the corner where it's said that white and black played equally and got an equal trade. Usually one player gets the corner territory while the other gets some influence towards the middle.
<__monty__> Doesn't that depend on the ruleset you play?
<ldlework> But the computers play in a more spread out pattern inviting more fighting but resulting in a stronger position on the outside.
<ldlework> Doesn't what depend on the ruleset?
<__monty__> Japanese counting's based on influence, chinese on territory, no? So which is better would depend on which "go" you're playing.
<ldlework> No, there's no counting system based on influence.
<ldlework> The differences are area vs territory scoring. The includes the stones you play, in addition to the empty points you surround. But influence is a term which means something else.
<ldlework> The former includes*
<__monty__> Ah.
<ldlework> If there is a corner or side position, where one player has some territory, and the other player is blanketing over them, it's said that the player doing the blanketing, their stones still project influence into the middle of the board - that is, they can still work advantageously with stones out in the middle or elsewhere on the board
<ldlework> where as the player with the territory, capped underneath, their stones don't have any influence
<ldlework> (a simplification)
<MichaelRaskin> elvishjerricco: because glibc now wants Python
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<elvishjerricco> MichaelRaskin: why would they do that?
<MichaelRaskin> I am inclined to answer that this has become a project tradition by now to do something interesting
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<MichaelRaskin> It's not like eglibc story came out of nowhere
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<gchristensen> forgot to deploy to some of my systems since April :X
<drakonis> how's the preparations for gsoc?
<Arahael> MichaelRaskin: Thanks for that, for the android sdcard stuff, I must've been missing the 'r' permissions - already had 'x' setup, but 'X' was new.
<MichaelRaskin> X means «add x if someone else has it»
<MichaelRaskin> I was giving a recursive command and wanted to make sure it does the best approximation
<Arahael> MichaelRaskin: Yeah, I had already done chmod +x -R, but wasn't enough, apparently. Your command did the trick though.
<Arahael> MichaelRaskin: Now that I think of it, the parent also has to be readable, so that could be why.
<MichaelRaskin> Ah, I could skip +X as the data was already destroyed by a+x, I see
<Arahael> MichaelRaskin: I'm "cleaning out" my old files, I just needed to look into it all. :)
<Arahael> Can use find to just clear the x's from the individual files anyway, but yeah, better to do it only for directories in the first place :)
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<infinisil> Lazy file loading for packages via fuse, I'd love to see something like that in Nix
<etu> infinisil: I almost do that, but not fuse. But with direnv/nix-shell :)
<tilpner> infinisil: Wasn't there a way to make command-not-found install the thing without asking and then run it? That sounds similar
<etu> wow
<infinisil> In a way yeah
<tilpner> More limited (just binaries), but the same direction
<infinisil> I'd love for the whole nix/store to be lazy in that way
<gchristensen> seems scary
<etu> gchristensen: [sks] Should I just skip the optional part?
<gchristensen> imo yes
<gchristensen> will ln overwrite a file or fail?
<etu> With ln -sfT it should overwrite it
<etu> and consider it a file and overwrite it
<gchristensen> ideally it would fail the service if it is a non-symlink file
<etu> Then I'll add a check for that :)
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<drakonis> alas i have finished getting my arch container working
<__monty__> Oh noes!
<drakonis> i can now route around some of my annoyances i suppose
<drakonis> its mostly so i can do things using an environment i can replicate at work
<drakonis> because work isn't going to use nixos
<__monty__> They like arch but not nixos? o.O
<drakonis> no i mean
<drakonis> its because arch is mostly similar to average linuxes so it would allow me to do things without needing a lot of steps
<drakonis> like with python, i can't just go "uhhh just install x thing and it will work" with nix
<drakonis> kinda defeats the point of running nixos, but it helps me out with things that nixos currently does not offer
<ottidmes> yeah, seems a fair use case to me, I did the same for while by keeping my laptop on Arch, havent had the need in a while so now it too runs NixOS, but when I finally buy a new desktop I think I will try to run Windows 10 with both NixOS and Arch Linux in Hyper-V VMs
<__monty__> Eww.
<drakonis> very ewww
<drakonis> now that defeats the entire point of running linux
<drakonis> i'd run windows on a vm instead
<__monty__> In the python case isn't there a pipfreeze2nix or something? I'd expect that much. Been doing manual nix-shell -p 'pythonWithPackages...[a b c])' though.
<drakonis> mainly because windows performs really badly in general
<drakonis> pipfreeze?
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<ottidmes> drakonis: right now its just a plan, I like the idea of having all 3 of them available at the same time, and I was thinking making Windows on top because it would allow easier intergration and have better remote control, but if the performance hit is too big or if its just too inconvenient, I am not set on it, so I would just go back to NixOS on top
<__monty__> Yeah, pip --freeze, it's what most people use to generate the common requirements.txt for python projects.
<__monty__> ottidmes: Weird way to look at it. Usually people say the host is underneath the clients.
<srhb> __monty__: Which way do your trees grow. :-P
<__monty__> Doesn't windows just do way too much uncontrolable bs in the background? I'd rather restrict that insanity to a vm.
<__monty__> srhb: Well you wouldn't describe an OS as being under hardware. So saying something between a vm and hardware is "on top" seems weird.
<ottidmes> I have to experiment, if GPU performance is still great in a VM, I just might put Windows in a VM instead
<__monty__> It should with passthrough but then again I've never done so. Good luck though.
<colemickens> If anyone has a nice/easy iscsi target setup for nixos I'd be curious to peek at it.
<ottidmes> __monty__: I will give it a shot whenever I buy a new desktop, but I won't until this one gives out or is no longer sufficient
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<mdash> ottidmes: vfio is the hot new thing there
<drakonis> ottidmes: the hit will be notably large to be honest
<drakonis> hyper-v is really not as good as kvm