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<pie_>
im thinking it might be kind of nice to have a winePackages
<samueldr>
elaborate
<samueldr>
(not that I'm against, just curious for real-world use here)
<pie_>
i dont have any concrete thoughts, but theres always the fiddling with winetricks and crap
<pie_>
and now that i think about it, wine has the appdb, but no real package manager
<pie_>
which is kind of strange now that i think about it
<pie_>
i mean theres stuff like....i forget what it was called, one sec
<samueldr>
PoL, lutris?
<pie_>
crossover, playonlinux
<pie_>
i rememeber the playonlinux UI being kind of horrible though
<samueldr>
playonlinux being PoL
<pie_>
right
<samueldr>
definitely its own kind of UI
<pie_>
haha
<pie_>
i dont have a lot of experience with them thoug
<pie_>
but of course nix would probably be nicer in all its declarative senses
<samueldr>
though, with a bunch of pre-built binaries, maybe it could better be thought of as an external nix expression/attrset?
<pie_>
i guess
<samueldr>
could also more easily refer to specific nixpkgs versions if required?
<pie_>
actually nix might be even a pretty good match for the wine/winetricks model, where there is no concept of uninstall >_>
<pie_>
something doesnt work/fucked up? new wineprefix! (ugh)
<samueldr>
well, I kinda liked the fact that wineprefix worked fine for that
<pie_>
samueldr, thoguh I *personally* would prefer things to be upstream
<pie_>
*upstreamed
<samueldr>
upstreaming is always good
<pie_>
err, not sure if that was the right word here
<pie_>
i meant in nixpkgs
<samueldr>
oh
<samueldr>
hm, words 'r hard
<pie_>
:
<pie_>
* :P
<pie_>
politics/workload question thing: i wouldnt be able to code this myself, but lets say i could for the sake of argument; i wouldnt really want to be the sole maintainer, and i kind of feel like quality would probably be better if things were in nixpkgs, or at least affiliated with nixpkgs
<pie_>
i wonder if it would make sense for there to be multiple official nixpkgs related repos, but not everything in nixpkgs itself
<pie_>
so maybe, subrepos or something, and nixpkgs pins some version at any given time
<samueldr>
for more "leafy bits" (end-user programs which aren't dependencies) they could probably be done that way easily
<samueldr>
(I say leafy bits, as in a tree of dependencies, noething depends on a leaf)
<pie_>
and then have separate repos for languages and such
<samueldr>
there's some exploration being done, but whew, what a change this would mean
<pie_>
alternatively, have EVERYTHING in nixpkgs, but noone seems to want that?
<samueldr>
that's because sometimes something in e.g. ruby-land has pythony and go-phy dependencies!
<pie_>
MONOREPO :D
<samueldr>
how do you tell which pythonshire revision a rubyland revision depends on?
<pie_>
i dont really know how it would be good to do things, just thinking out loud i guess
<samueldr>
yeah!
<pie_>
hm i guess you have a point there
<samueldr>
AFAIK, this is the toughest nut to crack with regards to the idea
<pie_>
so basically version access needs to be independent of a given nixpkgs version
<samueldr>
I don't know much of what was thought of, but I know there's sometimes interest in that to allow e.g. an ecosystem to move at its own pace
<pie_>
well a (the?) fundamental dichotomy here with the nix philosophy is that a given nixpkgs should fully pin down your system
<pie_>
or somethinh
<samueldr>
something like that yeah
<pie_>
well i guess that not actually a philosophical issue
<pie_>
as lng as you have access to the versions of other things
<pie_>
/within/ that nixpkgs
<pie_>
ok so i think this boils down to nixpkgs providing a "currently works" blessed version of everything, or allowing you access to multiple versions of things somehow
<pie_>
currently thats sort of done by picking a nixpkgs version, but that "concept" would need to be transformed into being able to pick a version of something inside nixpkgs, while nixpkgs is being versioned by git
<pie_>
is what im trying to say coming across at all?
<pie_>
xD
<pie_>
rephrased, versioning is currenctly sort of implicitly handled by git
<pie_>
or something...
<pie_>
the concept of versioning exists /outside of/ nixpkgs knowledge of itself
<pie_>
an annoying case is how haskell packages break over time because of rolling ghc api breakage (something something)
<pie_>
(thats just ow ghc does things)
<samueldr>
I'm not sure what you meant, but "versions of things within nixpkgs is coherent within a revision of itself" is how I'd explain it
<pie_>
maybe asimpler way to say it is nixpkgs only has one working version of things at any given time
<samueldr>
(we may be tripping on two different meaning of "versions", there is the version of the package trees, and the version of the things inside the tree)
<pie_>
idk, and my knowledge of this is very limited to begin with
<pie_>
tl;dr: "we should introduce an explicit layer of versioning in nixpkgs, that can be navigated in the context of a nix expression, and not by changing the nixpkgs repository version"
<pie_>
i think thats what what i'm saying boils down to
<pie_>
the problem is the introduction of complexity and youd be versioning the inner databases redundantly
<pie_>
...but maybe its not *really* redundant
<pie_>
persistend data structures instead of some canonical most recent state
<pie_>
persistent
<pie_>
samueldr, ...basically need to have access to all versions of everything at any time ever :I
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<sphalerite>
maybe stracing sshd on the server could be informative too?
<manveru>
that kinda straces my active ssh session too
<sphalerite>
no, it shouldn't
<sphalerite>
since there's a process for each connection
<sphalerite>
(which also means stopping sshd won't kill existing connections, which can be handy :D )
<manveru>
operation not permitted :P
<manveru>
i slowly start to think that's related to a new version of vpsadminos
<manveru>
lemme check with them
<manveru>
well, my guess atm is that sshd tries to connect to systemd-logind for some reason, but since that constantly fails to start, it gives up a after a while and does the normal thing
<manveru>
probably should move that server to hetzner too... no reason to keep it on vpsfree
<sphalerite>
yeah if logind is broken…
<manveru>
i liked their idea of making a whole VPS OS with NixOS, but the way it's implemented seems to be a different shade of buggy every week :P
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<deltasquared>
^ ever get one of those times when you watch something and feel unable to comprehend the hidden complexities
<infinisil>
Yeah
<infinisil>
Have been trying to get to the source code to see how it works, but I can't find it lol
<pie__>
deltasquared, i discovered pyqtgraph has a really interesting koch curve demo the other day >_>
<deltasquared>
pie__: can't say I've used much of python or QT heh
<deltasquared>
QT more recently but I felt the C(++) api to be somewhat clumsy...
<pie__>
what do you use
<pie__>
man i cant put my finger on where i know this mbostock guy from
<sphalerite>
pie__: d3?
<sphalerite>
(d3.js)
<deltasquared>
I don't do a whole lot of UI programming at the moment
<deltasquared>
insofar as I do programming with something that could be *seen* (that isn't a terminal), it's writing minetest mods in lua
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<deltasquared>
huh, no cabal in plain nixpkgs, what's going on here
<deltasquared>
oh wait, it's there, it appears I'm not that good with searching via nix-env yet
<sphalerite>
`nix search` tw
<sphalerite>
ftw*
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<deltasquared>
oh, that's a neat little wrapper... now I just wish evaluating the core nix expression didn't take so long >_>
<sphalerite>
that's why nix search has caching :)
<deltasquared>
oh, so it does
<deltasquared>
I'll have to remember that one
<deltasquared>
does it have a way of detecting when I run e.g. nix-channel --update?
<sphalerite>
no, you have to manually use -u when you think it might have gone stale
<deltasquared>
consider it a feature request I guess, heh
<pie__>
add a cron jerb?
<deltasquared>
pie__: perhaps. to be fair, if it's only caching package names for that, then the worst that could happen is a version displays wrong or a package vanishes.
<sphalerite>
exactly
* deltasquared
proceeds to rip out host distro's ghc/haskell libs causing him issues
<pie__>
"Am I out of touch? No it is the children who are wrong."
<deltasquared>
pie__: hmm?
<deltasquared>
ah, nothing like seeing all your cores going at a build job
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<sphalerite>
idea: combination powerline adapter/ethernet adapter/USB-C PD charger. Laptop/phone power and wired LAN in one!
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<joepie91>
sphalerite: I've passed your idea on to somebody at $localHackerspace who's starting to design USB thingems, so who knows... :P
<sphalerite>
joepie91: :D
<joepie91>
maybe it'll magically come into existence in a few months
<sphalerite>
not sure how wide the range of applications for that really is, but y'know
<joepie91>
sphalerite: I mean, his current project is a USB PD analyzer/debugging tool
<joepie91>
so, lol
<sphalerite>
ah sweet
<joepie91>
I don't think "small market" is really a problem there, haha
<sphalerite>
and actually I guess it could make sense for big companies to reduce the costs of deploying a bunch of people in an older office building?
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<sphalerite>
Although idk how well powerline scales.
<sphalerite>
Probably not very.
* joepie91
waves at Peetz0r
<Peetz0r>
16:29:18 <@joepie91> Peetz0r: [15:13] <sphalerite> idea: combination powerline adapter/ethernet adapter/USB-C PD charger. Laptop/phone power and wired LAN in one!
<Peetz0r>
he told me to work on that as my next product
<joepie91>
sphalerite: ^ said person
<sphalerite>
oh hi
<Peetz0r>
and I actually might :)
<joepie91>
My Work Here Is Done
<sphalerite>
ooh sweet
* joepie91
off to shower
<Peetz0r>
emphasis on *might*
<Peetz0r>
what would you pay for it? and when do you want it?
<sphalerite>
that's better than "won't", which is what I was expecting before joepie91 told me he's passed the idea on :p
<sphalerite>
I want it whenever it's ready :p and I don't know how much I'd pay for it. Starting my first "real" job soon so I imagine my spending habits might change a bit
<Peetz0r>
oh, yeah :)
<Peetz0r>
I'll not ask you to invest money in me then :p
<sphalerite>
:D
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<gchristensen>
some tool that looks at what features a system uses out of the default kernel's options and emits a minimal config would be neat.
<gchristensen>
in particular for people who need to compile their own anyway.
<sphalerite>
gchristensen: yes! I found myself wishing for this a while back too…
<sphalerite>
maybe some combination of zgrep =y /proc/config.gz and the directory listing of /sys/modules could do it. But that's probably a bit optimistic of me
<samueldr>
exciting... can't spawn a terminal, can't switch tmux tab, though at least I can run commands using ssh
<samueldr>
tmux seems to be having a field day; burning 100% cpu usage :/
<samueldr>
(and I start a tmux with each session)
<srhb>
samueldr: Recursive tmux? :-P
<samueldr>
nope, I think something went wrong on a terminal resize
<samueldr>
everything just seized up
<srhb>
Meh :(
<samueldr>
at least I had nothing of importance running in one of those
<sphalerite>
samueldr: this sounds familiar
<sphalerite>
samueldr: iirc this happened with vim, in insert mode, or something
<sphalerite>
it would stop tmux from responding to pane resizing and sending SIGWINCH to its children
<sphalerite>
never figured out why
<samueldr>
oh in my case tmux just stopped doing anything except burning CPU
<sphalerite>
oh
<sphalerite>
idk then. strace to the rescue? :D
<samueldr>
too late, killed it
<samueldr>
when / if it'll happen again :)
<sphalerite>
I'm not such a big fan of tmux anymore…
<sphalerite>
no fun when the tool you're relying on for persistent long-lived terminal sessions crashes, taking down all the terminal sessions at once with it
<sphalerite>
and I've had 2 such crash bugs, one related to cursor shape setting and one that I don't know the cause of :/
<samueldr>
first time it happened to me
<samueldr>
since I've been using such a setup, I had more issues with the machine freezing up to unrelated things than tmux crashing; and machine freezing up is exceedingly rare!
<infinisil>
Oh my god
<infinisil>
Starting state: a totally new gpt partitioning, all previous data gone
<infinisil>
Step 1: Install NixOS with a simple config
<infinisil>
Step 2: Load all backup data and put it into the right place
<infinisil>
Step 3: Rebuild with the previous config
<infinisil>
Resulting state: A fully working NixOS system that's 99.9% like before with almost no problems
<infinisil>
I just arrived at that, it's magical :D
<sphalerit>
The only thing missing is the fresh feeling you get when you reinstall Debian! :p
<infinisil>
Heh yeah
<andi->
when everything is missing you and google for that one file that you had to drop somewhere years ago?
<infinisil>
In my case I'm so so glad to have this working so quickly again, because I'll need this machine tomorrow
<infinisil>
I was lucky for everything to have broken down just before the weekend, gave me enough time to go through these steps
<emily>
sphalerit: I think that fresh feeling only works for about the first week after a new Debian release.
<emily>
after that it's a stale feeling.
<sphalerit>
emily: sure but it's nice while it lasts!
<infinisil>
Today I learned that step 2 should come before step 3
<infinisil>
Alright, off to bed now
<infinisil>
Good night :)
<{^_^}>
Night!
<samueldr>
when the SSD in my work laptop broke, it was bliss to be up and running on my backup laptop in... minutes, and then back on a fully configured laptop in the time it took to download and build