gchristensen changed the topic of #nixos-chat to: NixOS but much less topical || https://logs.nix.samueldr.com/nixos-chat
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<pie_> im thinking it might be kind of nice to have a winePackages
<samueldr> elaborate
<samueldr> (not that I'm against, just curious for real-world use here)
<pie_> i dont have any concrete thoughts, but theres always the fiddling with winetricks and crap
<pie_> and now that i think about it, wine has the appdb, but no real package manager
<pie_> which is kind of strange now that i think about it
<pie_> i mean theres stuff like....i forget what it was called, one sec
<samueldr> PoL, lutris?
<pie_> crossover, playonlinux
<pie_> i rememeber the playonlinux UI being kind of horrible though
<samueldr> playonlinux being PoL
<pie_> right
<samueldr> definitely its own kind of UI
<pie_> haha
<pie_> i dont have a lot of experience with them thoug
<pie_> but of course nix would probably be nicer in all its declarative senses
<samueldr> though, with a bunch of pre-built binaries, maybe it could better be thought of as an external nix expression/attrset?
<pie_> i guess
<samueldr> could also more easily refer to specific nixpkgs versions if required?
<pie_> actually nix might be even a pretty good match for the wine/winetricks model, where there is no concept of uninstall >_>
<pie_> something doesnt work/fucked up? new wineprefix! (ugh)
<samueldr> well, I kinda liked the fact that wineprefix worked fine for that
<pie_> samueldr, thoguh I *personally* would prefer things to be upstream
<pie_> *upstreamed
<samueldr> upstreaming is always good
<pie_> err, not sure if that was the right word here
<pie_> i meant in nixpkgs
<samueldr> oh
<samueldr> hm, words 'r hard
<pie_> :
<pie_> * :P
<pie_> politics/workload question thing: i wouldnt be able to code this myself, but lets say i could for the sake of argument; i wouldnt really want to be the sole maintainer, and i kind of feel like quality would probably be better if things were in nixpkgs, or at least affiliated with nixpkgs
<pie_> i wonder if it would make sense for there to be multiple official nixpkgs related repos, but not everything in nixpkgs itself
<pie_> so maybe, subrepos or something, and nixpkgs pins some version at any given time
<samueldr> for more "leafy bits" (end-user programs which aren't dependencies) they could probably be done that way easily
<samueldr> (I say leafy bits, as in a tree of dependencies, noething depends on a leaf)
<pie_> and then have separate repos for languages and such
<samueldr> there's some exploration being done, but whew, what a change this would mean
<pie_> alternatively, have EVERYTHING in nixpkgs, but noone seems to want that?
<samueldr> that's because sometimes something in e.g. ruby-land has pythony and go-phy dependencies!
<pie_> MONOREPO :D
<samueldr> how do you tell which pythonshire revision a rubyland revision depends on?
<pie_> i dont really know how it would be good to do things, just thinking out loud i guess
<samueldr> yeah!
<pie_> hm i guess you have a point there
<samueldr> AFAIK, this is the toughest nut to crack with regards to the idea
<pie_> so basically version access needs to be independent of a given nixpkgs version
<samueldr> I don't know much of what was thought of, but I know there's sometimes interest in that to allow e.g. an ecosystem to move at its own pace
<pie_> well a (the?) fundamental dichotomy here with the nix philosophy is that a given nixpkgs should fully pin down your system
<pie_> or somethinh
<samueldr> something like that yeah
<pie_> well i guess that not actually a philosophical issue
<pie_> as lng as you have access to the versions of other things
<pie_> /within/ that nixpkgs
<pie_> ok so i think this boils down to nixpkgs providing a "currently works" blessed version of everything, or allowing you access to multiple versions of things somehow
<pie_> currently thats sort of done by picking a nixpkgs version, but that "concept" would need to be transformed into being able to pick a version of something inside nixpkgs, while nixpkgs is being versioned by git
<pie_> is what im trying to say coming across at all?
<pie_> xD
<pie_> rephrased, versioning is currenctly sort of implicitly handled by git
<pie_> or something...
<pie_> the concept of versioning exists /outside of/ nixpkgs knowledge of itself
<pie_> an annoying case is how haskell packages break over time because of rolling ghc api breakage (something something)
<pie_> (thats just ow ghc does things)
<samueldr> I'm not sure what you meant, but "versions of things within nixpkgs is coherent within a revision of itself" is how I'd explain it
<pie_> maybe asimpler way to say it is nixpkgs only has one working version of things at any given time
<samueldr> (we may be tripping on two different meaning of "versions", there is the version of the package trees, and the version of the things inside the tree)
<pie_> idk, and my knowledge of this is very limited to begin with
<pie_> tl;dr: "we should introduce an explicit layer of versioning in nixpkgs, that can be navigated in the context of a nix expression, and not by changing the nixpkgs repository version"
<pie_> i think thats what what i'm saying boils down to
<pie_> the problem is the introduction of complexity and youd be versioning the inner databases redundantly
<pie_> ...but maybe its not *really* redundant
<pie_> persistend data structures instead of some canonical most recent state
<pie_> persistent
<pie_> samueldr, ...basically need to have access to all versions of everything at any time ever :I
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<adisbladis> Heh. I felt a bit like this today https://xkcd.com/1987/ trying to look into how python module loading actually works
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<pie__> adisbladis, ;_;
<manveru> anyone know a reason why SSH takes over 90 seconds from initial connection until key exchange even starts?
<manveru> wireshark doesn't show any traffic in that timeframe, and `ssh -vvvv` outputs nothing during that time either
<manveru> seems like some kind of timeout, but for what?
<manveru> and it happens only for one of my nixos servers
<sphalerite> manveru: wireshark on the client shows nothing?
<manveru> yeah
<sphalerite> huh
<sphalerite> tried strace?
<manveru> strace seems stuck at a read call
<manveru> i wonder if it's maybe related to PAM and my yubikey
<manveru> but i don't even use that for SSH...
<sphalerite> which file descriptor?
<manveru> 3
<manveru> lemme check what that points to
<sphalerite> guess: the socet
<sphalerite> socket*
<manveru> jup :)
<sphalerite> the TCP socket to the server
<sphalerite> and only SSH has this problem? And it's not sending the SYN at all?
<sphalerite> only SSH to that specific server, even
<manveru> it sends SYN and gets ACK
<manveru> just that super long pause after...
<manveru> hm
<manveru> the logind seems to have trouble
<manveru> `systemd[1]: systemd-logind.service: Failed to reset devices.list: Operation not permitted`
<manveru> `systemd[16904]: dbus.service: Failed to adjust OOM setting: Read-only file system`
<manveru> `dbus.service: Failed at step OOM_ADJUST spawning /nix/store/4a21vwbrs9735h468xiy2gakch40mf0i-dbus-1.10.24/bin/dbus-daemon: Read-only file system`
<manveru> stuff like that
<sphalerite> maybe stracing sshd on the server could be informative too?
<manveru> that kinda straces my active ssh session too
<sphalerite> no, it shouldn't
<sphalerite> since there's a process for each connection
<sphalerite> (which also means stopping sshd won't kill existing connections, which can be handy :D )
<manveru> operation not permitted :P
<manveru> i slowly start to think that's related to a new version of vpsadminos
<manveru> lemme check with them
<manveru> well, my guess atm is that sshd tries to connect to systemd-logind for some reason, but since that constantly fails to start, it gives up a after a while and does the normal thing
<manveru> probably should move that server to hetzner too... no reason to keep it on vpsfree
<sphalerite> yeah if logind is broken…
<manveru> i liked their idea of making a whole VPS OS with NixOS, but the way it's implemented seems to be a different shade of buggy every week :P
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<infinisil> Holy batman, this looks cool as hell: https://beta.observablehq.com/@mbostock/altered-world
<deltasquared> ^ ever get one of those times when you watch something and feel unable to comprehend the hidden complexities
<infinisil> Yeah
<infinisil> Have been trying to get to the source code to see how it works, but I can't find it lol
<pie__> deltasquared, i discovered pyqtgraph has a really interesting koch curve demo the other day >_>
<deltasquared> pie__: can't say I've used much of python or QT heh
<deltasquared> QT more recently but I felt the C(++) api to be somewhat clumsy...
<pie__> what do you use
<pie__> man i cant put my finger on where i know this mbostock guy from
<sphalerite> pie__: d3?
<sphalerite> (d3.js)
<deltasquared> I don't do a whole lot of UI programming at the moment
<deltasquared> insofar as I do programming with something that could be *seen* (that isn't a terminal), it's writing minetest mods in lua
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<deltasquared> huh, no cabal in plain nixpkgs, what's going on here
<deltasquared> oh wait, it's there, it appears I'm not that good with searching via nix-env yet
<sphalerite> `nix search` tw
<sphalerite> ftw*
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<deltasquared> oh, that's a neat little wrapper... now I just wish evaluating the core nix expression didn't take so long >_>
<sphalerite> that's why nix search has caching :)
<deltasquared> oh, so it does
<deltasquared> I'll have to remember that one
<deltasquared> does it have a way of detecting when I run e.g. nix-channel --update?
<sphalerite> no, you have to manually use -u when you think it might have gone stale
<deltasquared> consider it a feature request I guess, heh
<pie__> add a cron jerb?
<deltasquared> pie__: perhaps. to be fair, if it's only caching package names for that, then the worst that could happen is a version displays wrong or a package vanishes.
<sphalerite> exactly
* deltasquared proceeds to rip out host distro's ghc/haskell libs causing him issues
<pie__> "Am I out of touch? No it is the children who are wrong."
<deltasquared> pie__: hmm?
<deltasquared> ah, nothing like seeing all your cores going at a build job
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<sphalerite> idea: combination powerline adapter/ethernet adapter/USB-C PD charger. Laptop/phone power and wired LAN in one!
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<joepie91> sphalerite: I've passed your idea on to somebody at $localHackerspace who's starting to design USB thingems, so who knows... :P
<sphalerite> joepie91: :D
<joepie91> maybe it'll magically come into existence in a few months
<sphalerite> not sure how wide the range of applications for that really is, but y'know
<joepie91> sphalerite: I mean, his current project is a USB PD analyzer/debugging tool
<joepie91> so, lol
<sphalerite> ah sweet
<joepie91> I don't think "small market" is really a problem there, haha
<sphalerite> and actually I guess it could make sense for big companies to reduce the costs of deploying a bunch of people in an older office building?
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<sphalerite> Although idk how well powerline scales.
<sphalerite> Probably not very.
* joepie91 waves at Peetz0r
<Peetz0r> 16:29:18 <@joepie91> Peetz0r: [15:13] <sphalerite> idea: combination powerline adapter/ethernet adapter/USB-C PD charger. Laptop/phone power and wired LAN in one!
<Peetz0r> he told me to work on that as my next product
<joepie91> sphalerite: ^ said person
<sphalerite> oh hi
<Peetz0r> and I actually might :)
<joepie91> My Work Here Is Done
<sphalerite> ooh sweet
* joepie91 off to shower
<Peetz0r> emphasis on *might*
<Peetz0r> what would you pay for it? and when do you want it?
<sphalerite> that's better than "won't", which is what I was expecting before joepie91 told me he's passed the idea on :p
<sphalerite> I want it whenever it's ready :p and I don't know how much I'd pay for it. Starting my first "real" job soon so I imagine my spending habits might change a bit
<Peetz0r> oh, yeah :)
<Peetz0r> I'll not ask you to invest money in me then :p
<sphalerite> :D
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<gchristensen> some tool that looks at what features a system uses out of the default kernel's options and emits a minimal config would be neat.
<gchristensen> in particular for people who need to compile their own anyway.
<sphalerite> gchristensen: yes! I found myself wishing for this a while back too…
<sphalerite> maybe some combination of zgrep =y /proc/config.gz and the directory listing of /sys/modules could do it. But that's probably a bit optimistic of me
<gchristensen> yeah
* gchristensen grumpily watches thunderbolt compile
<andi-> wasn't there a standard linux make target that does exactly that (at least for modules)?
<sphalerite> gchristensen: also is there a particular reason why the community box allows password login?
<gchristensen> nobody disabled it
<gchristensen> how is that for a reason :P
<sphalerite> right but no actual use case for allowing it?
<gchristensen> right
<sphalerite> that's what I meant :p
<sphalerite> PR incoming shortly ;)
<gchristensen> yay!
<gchristensen> also, I think it'd be neat if the host created virtualizedenvs per user so you _could_ trust it
<sphalerite> virtualised as in VMs? Or some namespacing wizardry?
<gchristensen> VMs I guess? some way where you can't taint anyone else's store
<sphalerite> nix-community/aarch64-build-box#30
<{^_^}> https://github.com/nix-community/aarch64-build-box/pull/30 (by lheckemann, 15 seconds ago, open): openssh: disable password, challenge-response auth
<sphalerite> oh wrong chat, sort of
<sphalerite> ah well, it worked :p
<sphalerite> https://bunniefoo.com/bunnie/pc18/pc18-paper-v-breadboard.png hahaha paper natively suppoorts comments
<emily> :D
<joepie91> lolol
<samueldr> exciting... can't spawn a terminal, can't switch tmux tab, though at least I can run commands using ssh
<samueldr> tmux seems to be having a field day; burning 100% cpu usage :/
<samueldr> (and I start a tmux with each session)
<srhb> samueldr: Recursive tmux? :-P
<samueldr> nope, I think something went wrong on a terminal resize
<samueldr> everything just seized up
<srhb> Meh :(
<samueldr> at least I had nothing of importance running in one of those
<sphalerite> samueldr: this sounds familiar
<sphalerite> samueldr: iirc this happened with vim, in insert mode, or something
<sphalerite> it would stop tmux from responding to pane resizing and sending SIGWINCH to its children
<sphalerite> never figured out why
<samueldr> oh in my case tmux just stopped doing anything except burning CPU
<sphalerite> oh
<sphalerite> idk then. strace to the rescue? :D
<samueldr> too late, killed it
<samueldr> when / if it'll happen again :)
<sphalerite> I'm not such a big fan of tmux anymore…
<sphalerite> no fun when the tool you're relying on for persistent long-lived terminal sessions crashes, taking down all the terminal sessions at once with it
<sphalerite> and I've had 2 such crash bugs, one related to cursor shape setting and one that I don't know the cause of :/
<samueldr> first time it happened to me
<samueldr> since I've been using such a setup, I had more issues with the machine freezing up to unrelated things than tmux crashing; and machine freezing up is exceedingly rare!
<infinisil> Oh my god
<infinisil> Starting state: a totally new gpt partitioning, all previous data gone
<infinisil> Step 1: Install NixOS with a simple config
<infinisil> Step 2: Load all backup data and put it into the right place
<infinisil> Step 3: Rebuild with the previous config
<infinisil> Resulting state: A fully working NixOS system that's 99.9% like before with almost no problems
<infinisil> I just arrived at that, it's magical :D
<sphalerit> The only thing missing is the fresh feeling you get when you reinstall Debian! :p
<infinisil> Heh yeah
<andi-> when everything is missing you and google for that one file that you had to drop somewhere years ago?
<infinisil> In my case I'm so so glad to have this working so quickly again, because I'll need this machine tomorrow
<infinisil> I was lucky for everything to have broken down just before the weekend, gave me enough time to go through these steps
<emily> sphalerit: I think that fresh feeling only works for about the first week after a new Debian release.
<emily> after that it's a stale feeling.
<sphalerit> emily: sure but it's nice while it lasts!
<infinisil> Today I learned that step 2 should come before step 3
<infinisil> Alright, off to bed now
<infinisil> Good night :)
<{^_^}> Night!
<samueldr> when the SSD in my work laptop broke, it was bliss to be up and running on my backup laptop in... minutes, and then back on a fully configured laptop in the time it took to download and build
<infinisil> Oh neato
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