<sphalerite>
wtf is up with the naming of the "--binary-files=without-match" option for grep
<sphalerite>
why isn't it --binary-files=skip or something
<srhb>
Gaah. I've acquired some sort of shell bug where suddenly, ctrl+c stops working unless I type it twice, and I've no idea when it happened, and it's not easily triggerable so it's hard to bisect my config. *infuriating*
<sphalerite>
srhb: but it is consistent?
<srhb>
sphalerite: Once it it triggers, it appears to persist forever in the shell, I have to close it and open a new one to get rid of it.
<srhb>
I might just have to redo my entire zsh. x_x
<sphalerite>
does stty sane affect it at all?
<srhb>
sphalerite: Nope, but good call to test that..
<sphalerite>
reset?
<srhb>
sphalerite: Nope :/
<sphalerite>
if not I guess it's some zsh setting
<srhb>
Hmm.
<sphalerite>
what I don't like about zsh is how horrendously complex it is
<sphalerite>
it's like, well, you took bash, and you bolted on 10× the features
<srhb>
Agreed
<srhb>
In many ways I want to go back to bash, but it's hard.
<sphalerite>
I'm using zsh on my main laptop and bash on pretty much everything else
<sphalerite>
in the end, bash does seem to be Good Enough™
<sphalerite>
I tried fish briefly as well, but not being able to use git reset @{u} without escaping irritated me to an unreasonable degree :p
<srhb>
Yeah, it's just a few things that I can't easily implement in bash.. But mostly habits.
<sphalerite>
like what?
<sphalerite>
Also, I have a broken (screen is mostly dead) nexus 4 phone which I'm looking to get rid of. Any idea if any place I can get it to easily might still appreciate it, or should I just throw it away…
<srhb>
Honestly right now I can't recall exactly which features I'll miss, but it's probably related to extended globbing support
<jD91mZM2>
But... zsh is good :(
<jD91mZM2>
Well, it has a lot of good plugins*
<sphalerite>
but at what cost?
<jD91mZM2>
No idea, never had any problems personally
* etu
runs fish:)
<jD91mZM2>
I used to use fish, but I never liked the non-compatibility with bash. Always caused issues when sourcing ~/.profile etc
<qyliss^work>
I always found fish to have weird display glitches, like commands overwriting the prompt and stuff
<qyliss^work>
I saw a friend using fish the other day and noticed that it looks like those still happen :(
<emily>
anyone tried elvish?
<jD91mZM2>
ooo built-in file manager
<etu>
jD91mZM2: Well, that's kinda part of the point :p
<etu>
qyliss^work: Display glitches? I've used it for 10 years and don't know what you're on about.
<qyliss^work>
You've never, eg, had the cursor misaligned when writing a command that wrapped?
<etu>
Uh, no? I don't think so? I have a monospace font, how would it misalign?
<qyliss^work>
The cursor ends up on a different character to where text is inserted
<qyliss^work>
Or the prompt and the command being typed get mixed up and the command writes over the top of the prompt
<qyliss^work>
I just opened it in a Nix shell and it does seem better now
<qyliss^work>
I can't get it to do something wrong within a couple of minutes of testing
<jD91mZM2>
etu: I know, but it does complicate things if you want a bash plugin or so
<etu>
qyliss^work: Well, there was *a load* of bugs in 1.23 that I used for like 4 years before 2.0 got forked and then released. But since 2012 it's been stable for me :)
<etu>
or 1.22.3 or whatever the version was
<qyliss^work>
hmm okay
<qyliss^work>
I wouldn't be surprised if the version I saw running the other day was super old
<etu>
jD91mZM2: Does it really? I mean, you can still run stuff in other shells as commands
<etu>
It was abandoned for like 6 years :p
<jD91mZM2>
etu: But what if you really want to `source ~/.profile`
<etu>
jD91mZM2: Well, .profile isn't used by fish so you don't want that. If you want to achive something that `source ~/.profile` would in a sh-compatible shell you have to do it "the fish way"
<etu>
You say that you want to parse a file with your shell. But not why. And why is quite a good question
<jD91mZM2>
etu: I mean basically just sourcing environment variables. I believe I used to use something called "bass" that ran the thing in bash and then copied all the environment variables back
<etu>
It's aimed to be very different, and that requires that you resolve things in a different way
<jD91mZM2>
Why? Because if I change .profile I need to either relog or `source` it
<etu>
jD91mZM2: I mostly use direnv for environment-variables that is per project or etc. Works in bash, zsh and fish. With the same config :)
<etu>
jD91mZM2: Also, a relog wouldn't help in fish if you changed your ~/.profile since fish doesn't read it anyways.
<jD91mZM2>
It's read by the X server when you log in, well, apart from in Nix for whatever reason
<jD91mZM2>
s/X server/display manager
<jD91mZM2>
I mean global stuff like `export RUST_BACKTRACE=1`
<etu>
that works in fish
<etu>
(export)
<qyliss^work>
I use Nix for environment variables :P
<etu>
At work we use chef, and that requires an env-variable to specify my username for shef
<etu>
chef*
<etu>
So when I enter the directory with the chef-stuff, direnv sets the env-variable for me :)
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<jD91mZM2>
etu: Yes, but if you have anything more complicated, like export RUST_SRC="$(rustc --print-source-path --this-param-doesnt-exist)"
<jD91mZM2>
qyliss^work: Nix only allows setting system-wide variables. I guess home-manager works though
<qyliss^work>
It allows setting whatever you want if you generate all your shell profile files with it :P
<jD91mZM2>
True, but then you have your variables set on shell init and not in ~/.profile, or you have the exact same problem as originally
<etu>
jD91mZM2: Stop expecting that another language that states that it has another syntax will follow bash syntax. You have the wrong expectations :p, and in that case it would be simple enough like this: export RUST_SRC=(rustc --print-source-path --this-param-doesnt-exist)
<sphalerite>
jD91mZM2: what's wrong with pam_env for setting variables for graphical sessions?
<jD91mZM2>
sphalerite: I guess nothing, and maybe that's my problem. I'm just used to .profile being written everywhere online
<sphalerite>
joepie91: I could really use some of that velcro tape you found the other day right now :D
<jD91mZM2>
etu: Sure, but it's convenient to have the shell follow the same syntax as the thingy that gets sourced on every display manager startup, so I can source it without relogging
<jD91mZM2>
So if I'm going to use ~/.profile for environment variables, it'd be great if my shell supported reloading it to make sure it works. However, since there seem to be a few alternatives to ~/.profile maybe that's where I'm wrong
<etu>
jD91mZM2: Yeah, maybe. Since I have used fish for 10 years I don't see the need really. But opinions differs, and if that's important for you - fish doesn't fit your needs :)
<jD91mZM2>
It wasn't really that important, it was just one of the few things that bugged me. Another thing that bugged me was that I don't think there were any bitshift operators in the language, but since then I've started using another calculator instead of `bc` so now I can just use that for bitshifting too instead of the shell
<sphalerite>
in fish?
<jD91mZM2>
Yep
<jD91mZM2>
In bash you can `echo "$((1 << 31))"`
<jD91mZM2>
Don't think fish had something like that built-in
<etu>
jD91mZM2: fish tend to depend on bc for math operations
<etu>
They also have some syntax I don't like sometimes, "^" can be used instead of "2>", but that's optional and not forced
<jasongrossman>
I've been using fish for ages and I have absolutely no problems with it except for its non-standardness. I'm thinking of switching to bash, but largely that's just my dilettantism.
<etu>
jasongrossman: I would miss the autosuggestions too much, as well as the history searching is very nice. Maybe it's possible to achive with zsh.
<sphalerite>
gchristensen: oh but not actually fixed? aww
<sphalerite>
joepie91: fair enough. I don't have *that* many cables though, so eh
<joepie91>
ah :P
<joepie91>
I have a few boxes....
<sphalerite>
I have ~1 shoebox worth
<joepie91>
pfft, lightweight!
<sphalerite>
well actually a shoebox and a carrier bag worth, but I'm giving the carrier bag away to people who are more likely to actually use them (they're audio cables, and I'm selling my mixer because I barely ever used it)
<samueldr>
In the past I bought a "large" (not that large) reel of hook and loop tape, 20mm x 10m, by cutting them in the right pattern, I can fashion my own cable ties, with the required length
<sphalerite>
hook and loop? is that the generic word for velcro?
<LnL>
I don't understand it's a blank page, ... oh! :p
<samueldr>
well, those three letters W I and X tells me it won't be fun, even by not clicking :)
<joepie91>
this brought to you by me trying to explain elsewhere how Wix sites are immediately recognizable just from their loading time and pattern
<LnL>
gchristensen: didn't somebody make some improvements recently?
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<manveru>
isn't there any channel for dhall?
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<infinisil>
Oh my god, are you serious digitalocean
<infinisil>
I can't type a big W in the online console, due to whatever keyboard translation things
<infinisil>
And I have a big W in my root password..
<infinisil>
Well not sure if it's their fault, probably not
<manveru>
`dhall-to-yaml --omitNull < deploy.dhall 11.77s user 0.10s system 17% cpu 1:06.90 total` that's like ... not great
<manveru>
seems like it downloads half of github for every import and has no caching
<andi->
infinisil: vimium? :)
<andi->
I often run into issues with those systems and vimium..
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<infinisil>
andi-: Not in my case unfortunately
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<infinisil>
Well, I just made a new server now
<infinisil>
Loading all backups and restoring everything..
<joepie91>
[17:49] <infinisil> And I have a big W in my root password..
<joepie91>
minus 4% entropy!
<joepie91>
:P
<infinisil>
Heh yeah
<infinisil>
I seriously just lost a server because my password contained a "W"..
<infinisil>
Because special symbols and numbers have been a problem too in the past, my new password only contains lowercase letters..
<infinisil>
I hate myself for never having tested the web console with this password
<joepie91>
infinisil: message support
<infinisil>
Have already
<joepie91>
ah, alright :)
<samueldr>
infinisil: in the past I had to switch my local keyboard to qwerty US to make a remote console thingy work with symbols, as they did key codes to scan codes mapping :/
<samueldr>
so e.g. my server was setup with `ca` keyboard, my local keyboard too, to `ca`, but the mapping was made using the keys, translated to their qwerty US locations, and sent that way along the wire
<infinisil>
Yeah, am doing that too
<samueldr>
don't think it would help for capitalization though :/
<infinisil>
Well I guess it's a learning experience
<infinisil>
I should always test recovery mechanisms *before* I need it
<samueldr>
OH, it's the machine with the bot's code?
<samueldr>
well, running service?
<sphalerite>
aaaah that explains things :p
<sphalerite>
what did you do to it?
<infinisil>
samueldr: Yup
<infinisil>
sphalerite: The root of the problems seem to have been that the disk was 100% full
<infinisil>
Resizing didn't help for some reason though, and I couldn't inspect the problem further because i rebooted, but a lot of commands didn't work
<infinisil>
There also was a problem with the zfs kernel version being different than the CLI one, because of a recent update
<infinisil>
And then there also was the problem of my local internet not properly working
<infinisil>
A whole series of unfortunate events
<sphalerite>
oh fun
<jasongrossman>
etu: I rely very much on fish's autosuggestions and history searching (especially the latter), but can bash really not do anything similar?
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<infinisil>
,
<{^_^}>
Special commands: find locate tell - Commands sorted by use count, page 0 (use `,<n>` to view page <n>): tofu -A IFD NUR allah dnw nixcon pinning profiling unstable whomademe arm ask bootfull callPackage channels cloudfront context declarative error escape" escape'' escape-special fancy-uninstall github hardware haskell help home-manager howoldis imperative library logs nix-env-r nix-info nix-repl nixGL nixeval nixlang++ nixpkgsVersion not-os notfou
<elvishjerricco>
jasongrossman: Bash has history searching built in with ctrl+r, but it's not fuzzy searching, just substring searching
<elvishjerricco>
It also has pretty tab completion but not auto suggestions
<infinisil>
Next problem I'm having: I started the new server (new ip) with the name server pointing to the new ip, but it's not propagated yet
<infinisil>
In addition, I can't restart these autorenewals, because I have >5 subdomains, and there's rate-limiting above that number
<infinisil>
...
<samueldr>
yeah, the LE rate limit can sting in some situations :/
<samueldr>
where LE = Let's Encrypt
<sphalerite>
infinisil: smaller TTL next time?
<infinisil>
sphalerite: Many ISP's don't care about TTLs
<infinisil>
and keep the records for minimum of 48h in any case
<sphalerite>
does that matter for LE?
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<gchristensen>
"many" needs a citation :)
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<samueldr>
isn't that internet folklore?
<gchristensen>
I think so
<gchristensen>
so many sites require low TTLs to operate now
<samueldr>
from my experience, many registrars, on their own nameserver sites, will parrot the "up to 48 hours", I'm guessing it's more of a "don't call us until it's been a while"
<infinisil>
I'm pretty sure I experienced at least a day long delay at some point
<infinisil>
Well actually, not so sure
<gchristensen>
if your DNS root TTL is high, it'll be high. or if you change your nameserver records, it'll be high
<infinisil>
Yeah that might have been it
<gchristensen>
one time I added an extra 0 to the TTL and was in a world of pain
<infinisil>
gchristensen: How long are we talking?
<gchristensen>
I think I accidentally made it 10 weeks
<infinisil>
Oof
<jasongrossman>
elvishjerricco: I believe bash can be given good history searching with fzf, but the fzf web site has the worst documentation in the universe so I'm not sure.
<elvishjerricco>
jasongrossman: "Good" as in better than substring matching? Like fuzzy matching?
<elvishjerricco>
Fuzzy matching is something I really miss from vscode in emacs...
<jasongrossman>
elvishjerricco: Fuzzy matching, yes. If you can find instructions anywhere I'll be delighted. I can't work out how to use it at all.
<infinisil>
Oh actually, the certificate thing isn't much of a problem, because I was able to just load the certs from the backup
<elvishjerricco>
Ugh. Airplane internet isn't stable enough to keep an SSH session open
<gchristensen>
I don't pay for it anymore, it never is as good as I eed
<infinisil>
ARE YOU SERIOUS
<infinisil>
My laptops SSD seems to be broken
<infinisil>
Right now
<infinisil>
Or at least the ZFS part of it, I can't import the pool anymore
<infinisil>
Is somebody just screwing with me today or what
<samueldr>
:(
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<gchristensen>
for some reason my Zelda BOTW has started non-stop giving me new side-quests without me doing anything, all at once
<sphalerite>
elvishjerricco: go team mosh!
<elvishjerricco>
sphalerite: mosh?
<sphalerite>
elvishjerricco: a thing that uses SSH to establish a UDP connection which can roam and do local echo for much improved usability even on flaky connections
<elvishjerricco>
sphalerite: Checking out the homepage. Seems neat
<sphalerite>
programs.mosh.enable = true; on the server, install mosh on the client, mosh user@host
<samueldr>
gchristensen: the DLC update?
<samueldr>
EX quests
<elvishjerricco>
sphalerite: Thanks, ill give it a go. What happens if you totally lose internet for a while? Does it eventually let quit?
<sphalerite>
it tries to reconnect until you stop it
<sphalerite>
(it also tells you at the top of the screen if it loses contact, including how to make it give up)
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<gchristensen>
samueldr: yeah, is this normal?
<samueldr>
yes, they all come from the second DLC update :/
<gchristensen>
it was really weird few minutes
<samueldr>
I found it odd and jarring, compared to how everything non-DLC is integrated seamlessly in the world
<samueldr>
(though you're a couple months late :))
<gchristensen>
I'm a slow gamer :)
<samueldr>
eh, I am too, teasing you; while I did play the night of the release, I did not progress much further since :)
<gchristensen>
I play about 5min at a time during builds.
<gchristensen>
whenever possible, it'd probably be good to replace for i in find... wiht find | xargs -P$NIX_BUILD_CORES
<sphalerite>
gchristensen: find -print0 and xargs -0 ;)
<gchristensen>
yes yes but the important part is -P$NIX_BUILD_CORES :)
<sphalerite>
or gnu parallel lol
<gchristensen>
xargs is usually already in the closure, and doesn't require citations
<sphalerite>
:p
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<gchristensen>
I find it a lot more understandable, too. parallel reminds me of perl
<gchristensen>
do I want parallel :? parallel ::? parallel :::? or parallel ::::? I don't remember
<sphalerite>
I know, I was mostly joking because I haven't even got close to understanding parallel
<elvishjerricco>
sphalerite: Wait, if mosh doesn't kill itself eventually when the connection is totally lost, won't there be zombie mosh-servers on the server?
<sphalerite>
elvishjerricco: yes. I usually attach to tmux within mosh so that I can still access the session even if the client shuts down or whatever
<sphalerite>
idk if there's a way to "pick up" a previous mosh session. I've never needed to
<elvishjerricco>
sphalerite: But you kinda have to go around killing mosh servers sometimes?
<sphalerite>
not really, you can also just leave them be?