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<matthewcroughan> samueldr: I did setenv bootargs 'root=/dev/mmcblk0p1 rw console=ttyO0,115200n8 earlyprintk'
<matthewcroughan> then boot
<matthewcroughan> this all happened in uboot, I don't really see anything new or extra other than "starting kernel ..."
<samueldr> why did you "setenv bootargs"?
<matthewcroughan> just googling :P
<samueldr> I said to edit the extlinux.conf file
<matthewcroughan> oh, how do I do that? In uboot? Or in nix?
<samueldr> you can do it by changing the kenel command line options in nix and rebuild
<matthewcroughan> or do I mount the disk?
<samueldr> or just mount the partition and edit the file
<samueldr> the wiki page you followed applies to a few specific ways to boot linux with U-Boot
<samueldr> there's too many ways to use U-Boot, and probably an order of magnitude more ways to misuse U-Boot
<samueldr> it looks like this is vendor specific to their builds
<samueldr> (but most likely a common enough way to do it for other schemes for booting using U-Boot)
<samueldr> for the record, this is the scheme we're using
<matthewcroughan> What do you think I should add to the cli to get the right output?
<samueldr> more specifically, the exlinux.conf part
<matthewcroughan> loglevel=7, should I change it to 1?
<samueldr> the bigger the number, the more it prints
<matthewcroughan> what do you think I should set, based on your exp :P
<samueldr> earlyprintk=serial,ttyS0,115200 console=ttyS0,115200
<samueldr> you want to drink from the firehose
<samueldr> though reading something earlyprintk might not be needed anymore
<samueldr> make sure console=ttyS0,115200 is the last console= argument
<matthewcroughan> Didn't seem to modify the output.
<matthewcroughan> APPEND systemConfig=/nix/store/23d3vi1x3bl32qnv98y556sgqx2z7m9w-nixos-system-nixos-21.03.20210129.c2c140c init=/nix/store/23d3vi1x3bl32qnv98y556sgqx2z7m9w-nixos-system-nixos-21.03.20210129.c2c140c/init console=ttyS0,115200n8 console=ttymxc0,115200n8 console=ttyAMA0,115200n8 console=ttyO0,115200n8 console=ttySAC2,115200n8 console=tty0 loglevel=7 earlyprintk=serial,ttyS0,115200 console=ttyS0,115200
<matthewcroughan> that's the current string
<samueldr> did you edit all the boot entries, or make sure you booted the right boot entry?
<matthewcroughan> edit the boot entry?
<samueldr> in extlinux.conf
<samueldr> there's likely to be two boot entries
<samueldr> and if it fails to boot, not sure what to say, it's either U-Boot doing something weird (unlikely?) or the Linux kernel not working (how?)
<matthewcroughan> whole extlinux.conf right there
<matthewcroughan> there is only one boot netry
<samueldr> hm right
<samueldr> then I guess you added it to the right one
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<matthewcroughan> samueldr: It's worth noting that the partition layout seems quite different between 19.03 and this
<samueldr> it is
<matthewcroughan> like, /dev/sda1 contains extlinux, rather than /boot
<samueldr> around 19.09 the partition layout was changed
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<samueldr> I really cannot help you any more than that
<samueldr> other than having the hardware on hand to fiddle with
<samueldr> and the desire to
<matthewcroughan> samueldr: how likely do you think it is that the kernel version I'm using just isn't going to work?
<matthewcroughan> Do you think testing different kernels is likely to yield anything? or should I just kill that idea?
<matthewcroughan> Thanks so much for the help :)
<samueldr> no idea
<matthewcroughan> I hate how hard these Arm boards are tbh.
<matthewcroughan> I think this is why Yocto wins out at the moment.
<matthewcroughan> No matter how bad that bitbake tool is, it can produce outputs.
<matthewcroughan> Kills me.
<samueldr> note that you're not making it easy on yourself by using something that is totally unsupported
<matthewcroughan> armv7l?
<samueldr> yes
<matthewcroughan> what does support mean?
<samueldr> so no one tracks if/when things break
<matthewcroughan> well it worked at some point, I just can't use the new tools with the old nix so easily :P
<matthewcroughan> Getting back to that point is proving hard.
<matthewcroughan> (if I want to cross compile)
<matthewcroughan> I could get back to that point easily if I had an armv7 board that could compile this fast.
<samueldr> getting it to a point where it was possible to cross-compile *was* hard
<matthewcroughan> cross compilation in nix is as good as it can be, there is no issue with cross compilation
<samueldr> I don't get what you're saying
<matthewcroughan> samueldr: that the cross compilation isn't causing the issue here
<matthewcroughan> or maybe it is, hence the perpetual loading ;D
<matthewcroughan> who knows
<matthewcroughan> ah man, it's compiling zfs into the kernel
<matthewcroughan> I'm just wondering why
<matthewcroughan> Looks as it 5_4 works though, so maybe this'll solve something.
<matthewcroughan> Best I can do without the proper knowledge on how to debug this.
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<matthewcroughan> Hmm, 5.4 doesn't start either.
<matthewcroughan> so curious
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<{^_^}> #111700 (by MatthewCroughan, 12 weeks ago, open): U-Boot: Adds Orange Pi 3 build
<matthewcroughan> In other news, this can be merged now.
<samueldr> can it? someone bumped ou U-Boot to 2021.04?
<matthewcroughan> Ah, I guess not.
<matthewcroughan> Maybe that needs to be done though :p
<samueldr> :) but close to being able to
<matthewcroughan> I wanted to use this pi zero for the pihole
<matthewcroughan> But alas, it's too hard, since it's armv7l.
<matthewcroughan> The only way I'd be able to use it is with another distribution and their binary packages.
<matthewcroughan> Making a custom image for armv7l just seems impossible at this time.
<matthewcroughan> I'd use this orange pi 3, but there's no working ethernet driver haha
<matthewcroughan> Well, in mainline I mean.
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<colemickens> I mean, mine booted a month or two ago
<colemickens> on the pi zero w though, maybe its diff hardware/
<samueldr> colemickens: that's armv6!
<colemickens> I was just responding to what matthew had written, maybe I misunderstood
<matthewcroughan> colemickens: yeah, apologies I think you're missing context
<matthewcroughan> I've taken your rpizero1 and have mangled it to be armv7l
<matthewcroughan> the result doesn't boot on the hardware
<colemickens> "I wanted to use this pi zero for the pihole"
<matthewcroughan> orange pi zero :D
<colemickens> oooh
<colemickens> oh sorry
<colemickens> okay
<matthewcroughan> here's what I've done.
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<matthewcroughan> Oh...
<matthewcroughan> maybe it's that removal of "boot.loader.generic-extlinux-compatible.enable = true;"
<matthewcroughan> ah no, that's set to true no matter wah
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<matthewcroughan> - In `/nix/store/iw4agb8mx3qyfk3yn84v5krxih4x7zyd-source/nixos/modules/installer/cd-dvd/sd-image-armv7l-multiplatform.nix': true
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<matthewcroughan> hmm
<matthewcroughan> ext4-fs.img.zst-armv7l-unknown-linux-gnueabihf> /nix/store/ line 133: cd: /nix/var/nix/profiles: No such file or directory
<matthewcroughan> Is this more insidious than it looks?
<matthewcroughan> Yeah.. I have an example to share now too.
<matthewcroughan> it's pretty good, I turned samueldr's stuff into a flake, but still no dice on armv7l.
<matthewcroughan> gotta sleep now, too tired
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<matthewcroughan> misuzu: play around with kernel versions
<matthewcroughan> Some drivers are provided by uboot whereas others are provided via the kernel.
<matthewcroughan> Sometimes neither has the driver, because it has not been upstreamed.
<matthewcroughan> Eventually, things make their way into the kernel.
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<misuzu> matthewcroughan: networking.wireless.enable = true; did the trick
<matthewcroughan> Ah so you could have seen the interface with `ifconfig -a`
<matthewcroughan> You said the interface didn't exist, but it did.
<misuzu> matthewcroughan: there was no wlan0 in `ifconfig -a`
<matthewcroughan> Huh.
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<matthewcroughan> I don't understand this :D
<misuzu> me too :D
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<samueldr> misuzu: armv7l iso in uefi mode?
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<misuzu> samueldr: yes, i've used some of your commits from here
<samueldr> I knew I had it somewhere, couldn't figure out the branch name I used
<samueldr> so I uh... re-did it all yesterday evening
<misuzu> :D
<veleiro> how does the nixos images for the pi family work with /boot/config.txt? as far as i can tell, there's no config.txt in /boot, but its mounted within /run/media/user/FIRMWARE. changing boot.loader.raspberryPi.firmwareConfig in nixos config wont change anything there though. how does it boot the config.txt
<samueldr> veleiro: there's no universal answer
<samueldr> for the raspberry pi family of hardware, there are two paths you can go
<samueldr> (1) generic SBC support, where the boot firmware is an opaque blob not managed by NixOS
<samueldr> (2) vendor-specific raspberry pi "support" in NixOS
<samueldr> what you described with the FIRMWARE partition is (1), where we use the boot chain from the vendor to boot U-Boot
<samueldr> (1) is, in my opinion, preferrable if you don't need to interact with the "pi ecosystem of hardware"
<samueldr> but with (1) managing config.txt is left out of band of NixOS system management
<samueldr> basically, with (1) think of config.txt as if it was a menu in your BIOS, where you change settings
<samueldr> does that help veleiro?
<samueldr> I don't have much experience with (2), it exists, but I don't like that we're doing vendor-specific things
<veleiro> oh yes
<veleiro> so the mounted FIRMWARE partition is where i'd make changes instead?
<samueldr> yes
<veleiro> awesome, this makes sense
<veleiro> i appreciate you explaining those options to me. cheers
<samueldr> here FIRMWARE is "your BIOS" in many ways with the raspberry pi
<veleiro> good way to put it because you're treating the nonfree blob stuff in that ecosystem as a different interface to the device, completely separate from nixos
<samueldr> not strictly the "nonfree blob"
<samueldr> but more of a "platform specific detail"
<samueldr> this way we don't care about how it boots, as long as it's extlinux.conf compatible
<davidak[m]> FYI: phosh was just merged 🎉
<{^_^}> #121226 (by zhaofengli, 1 day ago, merged): phosh: init at 0.10.2
<veleiro> amazing
<veleiro> the UEFI booting and phosh merge i mean
<samueldr> yeah, saw that
<samueldr> now waiting on the phosh example system on mobile nixos ;)
<davidak[m]> yes, a demo with phosh would be great
<veleiro> i'm not a fan of touch interfaces to emulate android/ios however, cant stand what they've done to the computer
<davidak[m]> veleiro: do you know a better way of doing it? it seem to work for most people
<veleiro> a keyboard is my preferred method
<davidak[m]> on a smartphone? you can connect a usb keyboard, but the UI is not optimised for that
<veleiro> i know, everything is built around touch
<veleiro> we're cool enough not to have to be like the corporations with their interfaces, there was nothing wrong with small tangible keyboards
<samueldr> phosh is not forced onto anyone
<samueldr> I rather we have varied explorations of interfaces than a myopic single-minded one
<veleiro> yep
<veleiro> its good i said
<veleiro> i'll be trying for wayland-something keyboard focused as my mobile driver, to be determined with more research
<davidak[m]> veleiro: great if you found a workflow that works for you. just to provide a perspective to the topic: i see people like CLI and argue it's more efficient. i was thinking about the thesis that GUI is actually more efficient for most people since it's easier to click a button than knowing which arguments you have to type, needing reading the manual. i was even considering the idea, when people argue that clicking
<davidak[m]> i don't have a final opinion on this and don't want to start a discussion now
<davidak[m]> with the mouse is not efficient, maybe a touch screen on pc/notebook would be faster and more intuitive? there seem to be a trend that casual computer users seem to prefer smartphone/tablets over PCs... that seem what you criticize, but maybe we can learn from that when our goal is to create tools that are accessible to most people, not just toys for nerds
<samueldr> I assume it's all a total workflow thing, and not a single task
<samueldr> I assume people seem to gravitate to CLIs not because of the single CLI use being more efficient, but because they can be composed or scripted, while GUIs (on most OS) seldom can
<samueldr> so that brings some familiarity
<samueldr> might also be because CLIs are mostly "one dimensional"
<samueldr> not sure how to better describe that dimensionality feeling
<davidak[m]> the workflow of unix style cli tools in combination with pipes and scripting is very powerful, but not what most computer users are comfortable using.
<samueldr> I also think the familiarity one gains by chaining, scripting and composing with CLI tools colours their judgement
<veleiro> GUIs have already run into the problem of the same amount of bloat added to their interfaces, requiring a manual of operation. look at your CAD tools, any professional graphics tools. the difference is the GUI captured the publics' expectations at the right time, and its only seen exponential growth and adoption by users since then
<veleiro> there was a time before the gui and before a standardized gui, decades of normal users using terminals for work, play etc
<davidak[m]> i would like to argue that good GUI can be more intuitive, efficient and the users have a better experience than CLI. that does not mean that most GUI programs are like that, especially in the free software world. i need to do more research before making this argument comfortably.
<samueldr> those discussions often end up comparing the worse to the best, rather than thinking on level terms :(
<samueldr> the worst to*
<samueldr> both "CLIs" and GUIs can be terrible
<samueldr> both "CLIs" and GUIs can be good
<davidak[m]> sure
<samueldr> and then there's the "CLIs" I scare-quoted since some people think of TUIs as CLIs
<samueldr> (e.g. cfdisk, cmus, ranger, even vim, emacs, they are not CLIs)
<davidak[m]> i try to form an opinion on how we (as free software community) can make computing accessible to more people. should we really suggest to learn to use the CLI or should we create software where that is not needed for most tasks. i tend to latter
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<samueldr> personally, it depends what "make computing accessible" is as a goal
<samueldr> and "CLI" to me shouldn't be limited to the VT100 rut we're stuck with!
<samueldr> think about "fancy" CLIs like the browser inspector, or "maths" software
<samueldr> in many ways, chat bots are bad CLIs
<samueldr> (this is getting way off-topic for aarch64 :))
<samueldr> what can be done to better marry "imperative" interfaces to user-friendliness?
<davidak[m]> yeah, thank you
<samueldr> I'm sure a good answer is somewhat in-between GUIs and CLIs
<samueldr> why can't a "command" (not necessarily running an executable!) be met with an in-line choice to tap/click/select ?
<samueldr> and thinking in "imperative interfaces" like those, where you ask/demand things, can end up making spoken interfaces work better too
<samueldr> so CLIs vs. GUIs is probably a big false dichotomy
<qyliss> Emacs is a bit of both
<samueldr> yep
<samueldr> vim in many ways dips in both categories
<samueldr> if you want a CLI text editor, you need to use the standard text editor
<qyliss> Ed, man! !man ed
<davidak[m]> how to you mean that?
<samueldr> ?
<davidak[m]> >standard text editor
<samueldr> haha
<samueldr> ed is "the standard text editor" according to an old meme
<samueldr> from before memes were memes
<matthewcroughan> nope, I like sam
<matthewcroughan> because rob pike
<matthewcroughan> that's a real editor
<samueldr> and "?" is what ed responds on wrong commands
<samueldr> so my "?" was mistimed by your question :) was supposed to be for qyliss' reaction
<davidak[m]> ok, i don't know these memes
<qyliss> understandable lol they're from the early 90s
<samueldr> I was going to explain it once someone bit :)
<samueldr> so yeah, the point is that CLI vs. GUI is a false dichotomy, and thinking solely on those terms is probably poison for the mind
<samueldr> where can we harness an "explorative" interface, and where can we harness an "imperative" interface
<samueldr> and even then, not sure "explorative" is a good term
<davidak[m]> maybe intuitive? when i try to solve a problem and find a program that says it can do that or is recommended to me, i just want to be able to use it, without reading the manual! there are cases where this is done to the extreme with "one click optimization" tools, that are very populare by novice users, but you have no control over what the program does. i guess interface design is a hard task. Human Interface
<davidak[m]> Guidelines (HIG) like GNOME, elementary and Apple have them can help to create a complete experience where for example all programs have the same keyboard shortcuts for the same task
<samueldr> I think having an HIG and making apps intuitive is orthogonal to the main "quality" assigned to GUIs
<samueldr> I think GUIs mostly are thought as laying their *everything* bare, visible for all
<samueldr> which can be done despite or in addition of having an HIG :)
<davidak[m]> HIG helps to have a consistent experience in an ecosystem. the users develop a feeling what to expect, which feels intuitive. you can also learn to use the CLI, but having to read manuals seem more effort than just observing how programs behave
<samueldr> yes, orthogonal though :)
<samueldr> HIGs are not an inherent property of GUIs
<davidak[m]> yes
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<davidak[m]> "imperative" vs "explorative" seem to be good terms for the topic
<qyliss> GNU has pretty extensive HIGs (although they don't call them that) for CLIs
<qyliss> and you can see the difference they make if you give a GNU user a BSD system
<davidak[m]> i know GNU and BSD style CLI parameters
<qyliss> (which will have a different, but still consistent experience)
<qyliss> yeah, I wasn't trying to introduce the concept, but to make the point about how alien it feels to use the one you're not used to
<qyliss> which surprised me a lot
<davidak[m]> yeah, good point
<qyliss> I was using a BSD system the other day, and it wasn't the long vs. short options that tripped me up, it was not being able to put options after positional arguments
<qyliss> which I'd never even thought about before
<samueldr> whew
<qyliss> (like, I academically knew that this was a GNU thing, but it hadn't sunk in)
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<davidak[m]> "intuitive" might mean "what the user is used to" and is kind of arbitrary. working towards (open) standards would be a way to work in that direction. but finding consensus is hard, as we know :D
<qyliss> yeah
<qyliss> a floppy disk icon is not innately intuitive, especially to young people
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<samueldr> intuitiveness is what HIGs are for, and is probably a fine term to use for user expectations among things of a same origin
<davidak[m]> is there a better term to describe that a programs interface allows a (new) user to finish a task fast, without much effort/cognitive load and having a good experience doing it (have a positive feeling associated with it)
<samueldr> good? :)
<samueldr> I don't know that this is a "property" of any concept of interfaces, but more of a quality
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<davidak[m]> maybe that can be achieved also with CLI programs. i might be biased, because i'm not good at reading and used a mac for long time (mostly clicking GUIs), so i'm used to that. i'm might not be able to see the perspective of someone who hasn't used a computer before since i use computers for as long as i can think lol
<samueldr> yep, familiarity is one hell of a thing to get away from
<davidak[m]> there might be different types of users. those who like to read manuals and then know exactly how it's done and those who like to just try out until the find out themselves
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<davidak[m]> so we as a community have to provide different options and users have to search for those that work for them
<samueldr> yes, the most important value in my opinion is the freedom of choice
<samueldr> being free to do bad choices, good choices, any choice
<samueldr> more on-topic: #121429 updates U-Boot to 2021.04
<{^_^}> (by samueldr, 3 minutes ago, open): uboot: 2021.01 -> 2021.04
<davidak[m]> (thanks for the discussion and sorry for derailing into off-topic)
<samueldr> don't worry :)
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<samueldr> finally! testing changes in builds goes much better when you edit the right nixpkgs checkout
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<gchristensen> :D
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<samueldr> doesn't feel too special now that misuzu claimed to have done it
<samueldr> I guess UEFI boot on armv7l is boring
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