gchristensen changed the topic of #nixos-dev to: NixOS Development (#nixos for questions) | NixOS 19.09 is released! https://discourse.nixos.org/t/nixos-19-09-release/4306 | https://hydra.nixos.org/jobset/nixos/trunk-combined https://channels.nix.gsc.io/graph.html | https://r13y.com | 19.09 RMs: disasm, sphalerite; 20.03: worldofpeace, disasm | https://logs.nix.samueldr.com/nixos-dev
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<genesis> since we have fromJson and toJSON, i wonder if we can write some Json schema to describe desktop entry, then use a json tool as https://github.com/any-json/any-json to parse them
<genesis> describe exotic format with json schema would lead to validation and easier maintenable code (or not).
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<globin_> worldofpeace, niksnut, domenkozar[m], shlevy, Mic92, sphalerite, spacekookie, I won't be able to make it today, sorry
<domenkozar[m]> sgtm
<niksnut> hm, who is leading the meeting today?
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<Mic92> sphalerite: are you there?
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<{^_^}> firing: ChannelUpdateStuck: https://status.nixos.org/prometheus/alerts
<{^_^}> resolved: ChannelUpdateStuck: https://status.nixos.org/prometheus/alerts
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<sphalerite> Mic92: yup
<Mic92> sphalerite: the first meeting was over. I will sent soon an email for next year.
<sphalerite> Mic92: ah crap. I didn't realise when it was, I thought it was at 5pm CET since that's the last thing domen wrote in the thread :/
<sphalerite> (or 4pm CET since he wrote CEST)
<Mic92> sphalerite: you should have gotten a calendar invite for next year as well. It will be on 13:30 CET.
<sphalerite> Mic92: yep, I got that one
<sphalerite> Mic92: where was the previous one announced?
<sphalerite> (today's)
<sphalerite> sorry everyone!
<Mic92> sphalerite: There was only a calendar event (no email).
<sphalerite> which calendar? Were invitations sent out?
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<worldofpeace> ooh, did I miss a meeting this time?
<worldofpeace> I was just thinking about this yesterday and I was like, hmm wasn't that sorta going to happen next week since the nomination
<worldofpeace> in the future, If i have a date I kind try to make things in happen. just an advance on the info and it's more likely to happen. I'm EST
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<gchristensen> so I tweeted yesterday that my system is python2 free after PRs which landed yesterday. someone asked me if my build closure was also free of python2, and no it isn't: http://gsc.io/content-addressed/2edae3a2583411056a6246489d6e6f5d693a192f0148afa4ca10f14f551ef143.svg
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<Taneb> gchristensen: :(
<gchristensen> it is okay! I didn't expect it would be. python2 won't go easily :)
<Taneb> gchristensen: I wonder how many of those are actually hard to switch to python 3
<simpson> Taneb: Yes.
<simpson> gchristensen: To say nothing of PyPy, which will desire a Python-2.7-flavored version of itself to build its Python 3 interpreter.
<gchristensen> hehe
<gchristensen> Taneb: https://github.com/grahamc/nix-why-drvpends#standard if you wantto look, here is the full output
<Taneb> Project make-gchristensen's-system-not-need-python2!
<gchristensen> make *everybody*'s :) jtojnar did incredible work just yesterday removing python2 from like 50 packages
<gchristensen> (that is what motivated me to look at my own system)
<worldofpeace> jtojnar++
<{^_^}> jtojnar's karma got increased to 22
<worldofpeace> jtojnar is a pretty cool and motivating person, IMHO :D
<Taneb> One of the packages I maintain needs a) updating and b) switching to Python 3... I'll try to do that tonight (r-ryantm made a PR but I never quite got round to it)
<Taneb> Should nix-build "<nixpkgs>" -A python be changed so it's Python 3?
<gchristensen> (tbh I'm not sure actually if this flame graph view is useful or not...)
<Taneb> gchristensen: I don't have a clear idea of what the x-axis is. "how many ways does this depend on python2?"
<gchristensen> yeah
<domenkozar[m]> I have nixops in my closure so I'll just have a beer tonight :)
<LnL> :p
<gchristensen> ehh my output is buggy.
<LnL> the darwin stdenv also still uses it at the moment
<gchristensen> yarr, bit by caching
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<Taneb> The Wikipedia policy of "be bold" applies to nixpkgs PRs, right?
<worldofpeace> erm, Taneb not familiar. are you speaking of our wiki policy/s?
<worldofpeace> erm, there's some things I'm not completely alligned with there
<worldofpeace> But I take PRs in an exercise of grace and dignity
<worldofpeace> and understand
<worldofpeace> -ing
<Taneb> Really, I'm asking "should I make a really bold PR and have discussion after making it, or should I try to discuss the change before making the PR"
<worldofpeace> Like I know a process of creating an issue before creating a purposal, but some discussion has to occur for the change to be accepted anyway. For example with the Python port for testing Pr, you could say this was a bold change but discussions happened offline that shaped it into being a **bolder** proposal. I'm one to be say yes && no, and depending on if you think the change is one of difficulty I wouldn't reccomend
<worldofpeace> investing your time without creating some sort of connection here with what is actually wanted.
<worldofpeace> So I think either way you could get what you want.
<worldofpeace> Personally, I think people in nixpkgs really become invested if they see a certain quality in a proposal.
<worldofpeace> So I don't advise contributing in a way where you create a PR but you're disconnected from the whole giving the change.
<Taneb> Well, I created the PR I was alluding to: https://github.com/NixOS/nixpkgs/pull/76048
<{^_^}> #76048 (by Taneb, 33 seconds ago, open): python: change alias from python2 to python3
<niksnut> Taneb: that issue has been discussed at length in the past
<niksnut> and the conclusion was not to change python2 to python3
<Taneb> niksnut: where can I find this discussion?
<drakonis> isnt python 2 getting eoled in a matter of weeks?
<worldofpeace> this Pr changes python -> python3 ! python2 -> python3
<drakonis> actually
<worldofpeace> Taneb: When it comes to python changes currently, they've been discussed at length and the deprecation process is rather tricky
<drakonis> less than 2 weeks until python 2 is no more
<emily> nixos should switch to pypy
<emily> as a supported python2 implementation
<emily> not everything will work but it's better than using an unmaintained interpreter
<emily> either that or switch to like, the RHEL python 2.7 fork or whatever for the next billion years, but that's horrible
<drakonis> alternatively tauthon
<drakonis> but its bad
<emily> you're meant to suggest ideas that are less horrible rather than more :p
<Taneb> emily: that's tangential to making nix-build "<nixpkgs>" -A python give you python3
<emily> Taneb: *nod*
<drakonis> there's another fork that will maintain python post EOL
<emily> i personally think that would be good but there are backcompat argumets not to do it
<emily> niksnut: 2017 :'(
<emily> drakonis: i consider all such forks speculative until they actually fix a real security-relevant py2.7 issue in a timely manner tbh
<niksnut> I think changing python -> python3 has the same issue, it will silently break programs
<emily> RHEL is the only one with money on the line to actually do that
<drakonis> yes
<niksnut> better if anything to remove the python attribute
<drakonis> fair enough
<infinisil> I'm fro dropping python 2 completely, nobody should use it anymore, and if they really need to there's older nixpkgs versions
<worldofpeace> In short Taneb I believe you catalyzied something important. What's happening in nixpkgs for python2 is not clear for people who want to help
<niksnut> I disagree with dropping python 2, that's just not realistic and also not necessary
<niksnut> software doesn't stop working just because it has been EOLed
<emily> it does start rotting thuogh
<niksnut> and the amount of software using python 2 is enormous
<emily> *though
<worldofpeace> niksnut++
<{^_^}> niksnut's karma got increased to 13
<emily> the amount of python 2 software in nixpkgs is enormous
<emily> much of it works with python 3 and just hasn't been updated
<niksnut> that too :-)
<emily> at least switching to pypy would force everyone to try upgrading to py3 the stuff that broke :p
<worldofpeace> though there's cases where it's a very good idea to ditch things
<worldofpeace> if you care about your maintainers
<emily> *someone* has to lead the py2 deprecation, major libraries and applications are already there
<emily> it's been 11 years, waiting longer isn't going to do anything :/
<niksnut> we still need to rewrite nixops to python 3...
<drakonis> oh, that's a problem.
<emily> lol fuck
<emily> wonder whether it works in pypy
<drakonis> time to test it out
<drakonis> how complex can it be to port something from python 2 to 3?
<drakonis> its probably the worst question to ever make
<worldofpeace> lol
<worldofpeace> drakonis: I enjoyed it though
<emily> drakonis: apply judicious 2to3 then not too bad
<emily> mostly you'll spent 5 months dealing with subtle unicode vs. bytes issues
<emily> disclaimer: haven't actually done this for a large project
<drakonis> unless you're leaning a lot on python 2 specific features
<drakonis> i read a bit on the transition to py3 and it was pretty much growing pains
<drakonis> not really a lot of stuff that needs significant changing
<emily> it's certainly not so hard a transition that it isn't a bit embarrassing that nixops is still on 2 (but I'm not volunteering to do the work, so *shrug*)
<Taneb> There's a little note in nixops saying "we can do this when python 2.7.13 comes out"
<simpson> drakonis: It is far easier to go from CPython to CPython+PyPy compatibility, than to do Python 2 to Python 3. They're really different languages.
<emily> Taneb: lol
<emily> simpson: except not really, since the big "FFI"-y/C extension libraries are available on Python 3 and frequently not on PyPy
<emily> like, on a linguistic level, yeah
<emily> in practice given where the Python community is at, I don't think that's really true in practice
<simpson> emily: Ah, sure. I think that most of the low-hanging fruit's already ported, too; the main holdouts are libraries like lxml where there's active upstream resistance to PyPy.
<emily> that sounds... obnoxious re lxml
<worldofpeace> sometimes it's soo easy though https://github.com/NixOS/nixpkgs/pull/75919/files
<simpson> emily: Specifically, lxml doubts cffi, leading to this hilarity: https://github.com/lxml-cffi/lxml-cffi Such is life. I kind of agree with niksnut; let's remove the `pythonPackages` name entirely, as it is too silly.
<emily> I'd be +1 for making it error or at least warn
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<Taneb> I had a quick go at upgrading nixops to use python3
<Taneb> There's one test that seems to rely on sets preserving order which I think was true in python2 but not python3
<Taneb> https://github.com/Taneb/nixops/tree/python3 if anyone wants to get it over the final stretch
<Taneb> (and, like, make sure it actually works)
<infinisil> Taneb++
<{^_^}> Taneb's karma got increased to 13
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<{^_^}> #76060 (by alyssais, 7 minutes ago, open): treewide: fix cargoSha256 (again)
<qyliss> What to we need to do to ban buildRustPackage from Nixpkgs (and replace with e.g. crate2nix)?
<qyliss> Feels like it might be a little small to be an RFC, so wondering what other people think
<gchristensen> I think an RFC could be good
<gchristensen> as a mechanism of information sharing
<gchristensen> and precedent setting for future output-hashed data
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<qyliss> That's the answer I was afraid of, but think you might be right
<gchristensen> it might be worth collaborating with Eelco on it, he and I were talking about this a while ago, thinking about what is the litmus test for fixed output builds
<qyliss> I'm not sure I want to get too deep into what is and is not acceptable right now
<gchristensen> ok
<qyliss> I worry that would hold it up
<qyliss> And I think buildRustPackage needs to be banned yesterday
<gchristensen> +1
<qyliss> But you could see it as a good first step
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<qyliss> Towards properly defining that
<gchristensen> sgtm
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<qyliss> I'd be happy to discuss what the criteria should be after, for sure.
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<Taneb> PR exists on nixops to switch to python 3, that passes tests. I'd appreciate if someone who actually uses nixops could test I haven't broken anything
<{^_^}> nixops#1214 (by Taneb, 2 hours ago, open): Upgrade to Python3
<emily> Taneb: <3
<emily> even though i don't use nixops thanks for taking the initiative
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<qyliss> gchristensen: fancy looking at a draft?
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<andi-> qyliss: +1 on banning that...
<qyliss> andi-: you want to review my draft?
<andi-> qyliss: I can try
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<lovesegfault> Restarting: https://hydra.nixos.org/build/108490925
<lovesegfault> Restarting: https://hydra.nixos.org/build/108485809
<lovesegfault> Restarting: https://hydra.nixos.org/build/108374600
<andi-> qyliss: thanks, will try to give you feedback
<qyliss> ty
<samueldr> lovesegfault: what were the failures on aarch64?
<samueldr> (hydra doesn't keep a log history for restarted jobs)
<lovesegfault> samueldr: TImeout building the kernel
<samueldr> ah
<lovesegfault> which in turn caused everything to fail
<samueldr> yeah
<andi-> qyliss: are you aware of naersk? I am thinking that it might ressemble the use case of buildRustPackage more closely but doesn't came with all the good benefits buildRustCrate gives us
<lovesegfault> andi-: o/
<worldofpeace> On the topic of Hydra, I believe I'd need a hydra account for 20.03 release mngmt. not sure who to contact.
<lovesegfault> samueldr: is it possible to give priority to a job in Hydra?
<samueldr> yes, but only few admins have that power
<qyliss> andi-: what benefits are you thinking of?
<lovesegfault> samueldr: Ah, I see
* lovesegfault checks his powers
<lovesegfault> I have restart powers
<lovesegfault> Dope
<andi-> qyliss: well it works without generating additional files and just needs the lockfile (+ Cargo.toml). That might be a reasonable way if we do not want to keep generated files in nixpkgs.
<andi-> That being said I much prefer the buildRustCrate/carnix route since the caching effects we get there are just great -)
<qyliss> Oh, right, this doesn't split it into multiple derivations?
<andi-> it splits into two: one for all the deps and one for the actual crate
<qyliss> right
<qyliss> yeah that's not so good
<qyliss> And we'd have to check in Cargo.lock anyway
<andi-> Yeah, I just think it is worth considering coming from buildRustPackage as it is very similar (one small-ish file to describe it all)
<andi-> it is similar to some of the go packaging we have
<qyliss> I'll certainly list it as an alternative
<andi-> Yeah, as I said probably not what we want just worth mentioning that it exists
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<genesis> sorry but i don't success to get started with nix regex
<genesis> according to https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Regular_Expressions/POSIX_Basic_Regular_Expressions .at matches any three-character string ending with "at", including "hat", "cat", and "bat".
<genesis> nix-repl> builtins.match ".at" "cat hat bat"
<genesis> null
<genesis> what did i missed ?
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<samueldr> it has to match the string exactly
<samueldr> > builtins.match ".at" "mat"
<{^_^}> [ ]
<samueldr> > builtins.match ".at" "xmat"
<{^_^}> null
<jtojnar> it behaves like `^pattern$`
<jtojnar> aargh, matrix bugging again
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