<yegortimoshenko>
error: a ‘i686-linux’ is required to build ‘/nix/store/k48ha66pwjybgb79wgk1j2iy8bidyx2m-wine-2.12.drv’, but I am a ‘x86_64-darwin’
<yegortimoshenko>
is that to be expected?
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<NixOS_GitHub>
[nixpkgs] primeos pushed 1 new commit to master: https://git.io/v7JMj
<NixOS_GitHub>
nixpkgs/master 90afb0c Michael Weiss: maim: 5.4.63 -> 5.4.64
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<ottidmes>
yegortimoshenko: From what I remember from the last time someone asked about wine is that by default if the system is x86_64 it will default to having both the 32 and 64 bits version installed
<yegortimoshenko>
ottidmes: it's a darwin-specific issue
<yegortimoshenko>
(macOS)
<ottidmes>
yegortimoshenko: I see, I have no clue about anything MacOS related (and I want to keep it that way :P), but this might help: https://github.com/NixOS/nixpkgs/issues/8849
<ottidmes>
yegortimoshenko: So unfortunately it seems it is not supported on Darwin as of yet
<cwre>
How can I refresh my install? Should I just make a new user?
<ottidmes>
cwre: Refresh? Any change should trigger a rebuild, but only for what has been changed and the default stuff (grub, if enabled, symlinking of /etc and /run/current-system/..., etc.)
<cwre>
ottidmes: so I'll just make a new user
<cwre>
I'm running into a plethora of stupid issues.
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<ottidmes>
cwre: In the worst case, if something really is messed up, you could always use a basic config (just enough to get your system to be useful) and then install your actual config again, this has helped me in the past
<boomshroom>
Hm... nix isn't in the path of my remote machine, but nix-copy-closure was still able to send a precompiled nix binary. Does nix-copy-closure even depend on the target system having nix, or does it only check the existence of the store?
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<cwre>
Infinisil: how can I go about automating this Overlay for the nightly version?
<cwre>
Of firefox
<catern>
i'm pretty excited about the idea of the combining CloudABI and Nix
<yegortimoshenko>
sorry if it's off-topic, but what file system would you use on a laptop with ssd drive (trim-enabled) and why?
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<Infinisil>
cwre: Hold on, I'm looknig into it right now
<cwre>
Infinisil: alrighty
<ottidmes>
yegortimoshenko: All still worked on filesystems have SSD support, so you would not be able to base you decision on using a SSD, rather, what kind of features do you want from the file system? Personally I use ext2 for my boot partition, btrfs on LUKS encrypted LVM for my main systems and ZFS for my backup server (more stable then btrfs)
<cwre>
So... If I want to use ati_unfree on my MBP that runs an M370x... Can I?
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<cwre>
I tried it just now and it doesn't seem to work... Video broke on reboot.
<yegortimoshenko>
ottidimes: just good performance, good design, hopefully TRIM support. i don't plan to use LUKS.
<ottidmes>
yegortimoshenko: And those choices come down on features, ext2 is simple, no journaling, which is not necessary for your boot partition, btrfs, because it has many great features, such as snapshots and flexible partitioning, and ZFS because btrfs has unstable raid 5 and 6 support, and is generally known to be more stable (rather important for backups)
<yegortimoshenko>
i had some experience with zfs on freebsd, but i'm not sure if it's a good use case
<yegortimoshenko>
ottidimes: got you, will read about btrfs and snapshots. do journaling file systems wear out ssds? i'm not against an occasional 10-minute fsck
<taktoa>
I use ZFS on my laptop, which has an SSD
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<taktoa>
haven't noticed any particular wear-out, even though it doesn't support TRIM
<ottidmes>
yegortimoshenko: No, journaling should not wear out a SSD
<taktoa>
honestly I think SSD wear-out may be slightly overrated
<taktoa>
seems like it was probably a lot more of a problem years ago
<ottidmes>
I agree, mine is 7 years old I think, at least 6, every day use, still no errors
<taktoa>
the only problem I have with ZFS (and I actually don't know if this is caused by ZFS, but I have installed NixOS with ZFS on three laptops with relatively simple configs and all of them display it) is that when I shut down it will just hang at the "reached target shutdown" systemd journal entry
<taktoa>
also occasionally I see "failed unmounting /home" which scares the shit out of me
<taktoa>
so before I shut down I always run `sync` like 20 times
<taktoa>
after closing everything
<ottidmes>
taktoa: I cannot confirm the reached target shutdown, I have yet to setup that backup server with ZFS (so no ZFS in use so far), but I did see the failed to unmount /home for a long time
<cwre>
I have that issue on my macbook pro right now
<cwre>
No matter what it just sits.
<cwre>
Also, this touchpad is driving me insane.
<ottidmes>
taktoa: But since I have updated my configs, not sure what did the trick, maybe just updating certain packages, I have not seen it in a while
<cwre>
I feel like I can't rest my hands comfortably on the keyboard.
<taktoa>
two of the machines that displayed this for me were macbooks, but the third is a clevo w740su
<taktoa>
so I doubt it's macbook-specific
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<cwre>
taktoa: I'm just annoyed right now.
<cwre>
UGH
<cwre>
Still can't make my cursor larger.
<taktoa>
KDE or no?
<cwre>
i3
<taktoa>
(I'm a long-time xfce + xmonad user but when I got this macbook for work I switched to KDE + xmonad for the HiDPI features)
<ottidmes>
cwre: Why not select a different xcursor then?
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<cwre>
ottidmes: I don't know what that means
<cwre>
I have xcursor size set
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<Infinisil>
ottidmes: Weird, that seems like a bug
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<boomshroom>
I'm waiting on a few other things, so in the meantime I can ask another one of my questions. I'm vaguely familiar not not-os, but I'm curious what it would take to have a vm with a kernel and a minimal initrd. By "minimal," I mean one init executable that I can replace and play around with.
<ottidmes>
Infinisil: Agreed, I would clasify it as a bug, but I have no clue what is causing it (new to C development and using nix-shell to do this)
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<Infinisil>
ottidmes: Can you show the expression that's causing it? Or just a general idea what you're doing?
<ottidmes>
Infinisil: At the point where it starts filling up half your screen, it starts to get really annoying
<ottidmes>
Infinisil: I see, but would it not need a corresponding export?
<Infinisil>
ottidmes: Probably, not sure what's exactly happening
<cwre>
ottidmes: the premium cursor theme you sent isn't loading properly
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<ottidmes>
cwre: You might need a reboot? That is the exact code I am using right now on my desktop, so it should work, any errors?
<Infinisil>
ottidmes: Ah, no, you can assign bash variables by doing just `hi=test`, you only need export when you want subsequently executed commands to see them
<ottidmes>
Infinisil: The strange thing is that you would expect people complaining about this before me, I mean, the referenced pull request orignates from 2013
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<ottidmes>
Infinisil: Yeah, but that is why I was asking, why is it reflected in subsequent calls to buildPhase, when they are not exported?
<Infinisil>
ottidmes: Well it's not a bad bug, doesn't hurt anybody, and I don't think many nix people are checking the flags
<Infinisil>
ottidmes: It's all in the same bash process
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<ottidmes>
Infinisil: Ah right! function, not a external command
<Infinisil>
ottidmes: Exactly
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<ottidmes>
Infinisil: Well it should be easy enough to fix, I just hope it does not mean that everything wants to rebuild, it being stdenv and all
<Infinisil>
ottidmes: I'm actually not sure how one would fix that
<Infinisil>
gracefully
<ottidmes>
Infinisil: Simple, just create a local instead
<Infinisil>
ottidmes: Ohh right
<Infinisil>
forgot about locals
<Infinisil>
ottidmes: Wanna do a PR for that?
<Infinisil>
It should probably also be in checkPhase then
<ottidmes>
Infinisil: Yeah, I should check the whole script. I can try to do it
<Infinisil>
ottidmes: Actually I know a better solution
<ottidmes>
Infinisil: Do tell
<Infinisil>
Creating a $makeShellFlag variable that contains "SHELL=$SHELL", then calling make with both $makeShellFlag and $makeFlag
<Infinisil>
ottidmes: But I don't know, it's not so nice after all
<ottidmes>
Infinisil: Hmm, what I was afraid for, it will start to build all kinds of things after changing setup.sh
<ottidmes>
Infinisil: I will try it tomorrow, hopefully it does not mean having to rebuild everything (does not seem to)
<ottidmes>
cwre: You have to include the Premium xcursor theme as a package, it is not a NixOS config file
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<ottidmes>
cwre: e.g in your systemPackages something like this: (pkgs.callPackage /path/to/premium-xcursor-theme.nix { }) (I would add it to packageOverrides first in your nixpkgs config and then just use pkgs.whatever-name-you-gave-it)
<cwre>
ottidmes: what do you mean?
<cwre>
ohhhh
<Infinisil>
ottidmes: I may do this now
<Infinisil>
ottidmes: But I'm afraid it rebuilds everything..
<Infinisil>
Well I know it rebuilds everything because I just tried it
<cwre>
ottidmes: what do you mean by whatever I name it?
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<Infinisil>
cwre: Typically you do something like packageOverrides = pkgs: { hello = pkgs.hello.override... ; }
<ottidmes>
cwre: They are all files containing Nix, but generally you can categorize Nix files to be either, NixOS modules, Nix pkgs, NixOS configuration (setting the options defined in modules), just data (e.g. I have a file containing attrsets defining my hosts).
<ottidmes>
cwre: Exactly, what Infinisil said, I have something like packageOverrides = pkgs: { premium-xcursor-theme = pkgs.callPackage ./premium-xcursor-theme { }; }
<cwre>
God this is so hard to learn.
<ottidmes>
cwre: I agree, it is hard, but you are happy when you have learned it, because it maybe hard at first, it is also very powerful
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<NixOS_GitHub>
[nixpkgs] sauyon opened pull request #27530: Add solid-server to the list of node packages (master...master) https://git.io/v7J57
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<Infinisil>
cwre: I'm a few months in and it's smooth sailing, I'm also contributing already :D
<ottidmes>
Infinisil: I think I will work around this issue for now, but I will put making a pull request on my TODO list, it could take a while though, the list is rather long at the moment
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<Infinisil>
ottidmes: Well there's no way around rebuilding everything
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<Infinisil>
ottidmes: I can open as issue for that
<cwre>
ottidmes: the line you gave me isn't working, I get a syntax error
<ottidmes>
Infinisil: Great, please do so, it needs to be known upstream
<cwre>
Tells me the option doesn't exist
<ottidmes>
cwre: The packageOverrides is part of the nixpkgs config.nix, not your nixos configuration.nix
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<cwre>
Ohhh so in my home?
<ottidmes>
cwre: Although you can set it through the nixpkgs.config for use within your nixos configuration
<ottidmes>
cwre: Yeah, wherever it is you have it, probably .nixpkgs/config.nix or some such, I am using the system-wide location: /etx/nix/nixpkgs-config.nix
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<cwre>
I should do that.
<ottidmes>
cwre: BTW I think you still would need to set nixpkgs.config, but you could probably use something like: nixpkgs.config = import /etc/nix/nixpkgs-config.nix;
<cwre>
This is so confusing
<cwre>
ottidmes: where am I calling this package name like a regular package?
<cwre>
configuration.nix?
<ottidmes>
cwre: Yeah, in you environment.systemPackages, so it will be installed system wide
<cwre>
Okay.
<cwre>
But then I need to import /etc/nix/blah in .config/nixpkgs/config too
<ottidmes>
cwre: At least, xcursor.nix file in my gist assumes this, since it is using /run/current-system to locale the xcursor theme
<swflint>
When fetching source, is there a way to fetch 2 git repositories?
<cwre>
swflint: no
<cwre>
Unless I'm misunderstanding the question.
<cwre>
You can only have one origin per repo
<ottidmes>
cwre and swflint: You can have multiple sources, but one per fetchFromGitHub call
<swflint>
I have two repositories that I need the contents of.
<cwre>
so the premium cursor works, but my cursor is still microscopic
<swflint>
Perfect!
<ottidmes>
cwre: You were using i3?
<cwre>
ottidmes: correct
<ottidmes>
And Xcursor.size:48 in your .Xresources did not work?
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<cwre>
I actually have it set much higher
<ottidmes>
And did not forget to do: xrdb $HOME/.Xresources
<cwre>
I did
<cwre>
Still nothing
<ottidmes>
Hmm, so you are using a HDPI monitor
<cwre>
Macbook Retina
* cwre
hangs self
<ottidmes>
As a plan B you could try to do what someone else was doing, use KDE's support for HDPI, but run i3 within it, they were using xmonad, but i3 probably would work similarly
<pikajude>
seems like the hydra package is missing a BUNCH of perl dependencies
<pikajude>
based on the test failures
<pikajude>
can anyone reproduce that
<ottidmes>
cwre: Because even if you fix the cursor, something similarly might popup
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<cwre>
ottidmes: yeah, but this is annoying. I might as well just use KDE then because I hate KDE.
<cwre>
Might as well bite the bullet then.
<cwre>
Ugh, DE's suck.
<cwre>
Like, literally all of them.
<ottidmes>
cwre: I agree, I personally dislike KDE as well, but it is one desktop environment that I know of that has good support for it, apparently, I do not own a HDPI screen, so never had the need
<ottidmes>
cwre: I still like Gnome3 for low resolution and single screen machines, but I have become a fan of manual tiling WMs
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<cwre>
ottidmes: yeah I like using WM's because they're more configurable.
<cwre>
But these small annoyances make me just want to go back to MacOS.
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<ottidmes>
cwre: If you just want things to work out of the box, and you do not care about them, as long as they work, you should be sticking to something like MacOS, Windows, or Ubuntu or a similar distribution
<cwre>
ottidmes: I don't have a problem with things not working OOTB, but this isn't out of the box, the pieces aren't there.
<ottidmes>
cwre: In my experience though, you are just exchanging annoyances, especially when doing development, you tend to need things outside of the box ;)
<cwre>
One thing I love about nix though is that now I'm on KDE.
<cwre>
It took like 2 minutes
<dtzWill>
hahah yeah
<dtzWill>
"wait are you sure you don't want to like... process some post-install hooks or something for 10 minutes?"
<dtzWill>
unrelated, and I suppose folks interested in hydra might already be subscribed but since I've previously chatted about hydra occcasionally perma-skipping jobs in the queue
<dtzWill>
just filed this, hope it makes sense and folks can help resolve it :)
<ottidmes>
cwre: I really have to go get some sleep now, but one final suggestion I could make it that now that you can change your x cursor, you could always scale the source images to be bigger, which should increase the size. There are loads of x cursors out there, some of which are designed for HDPI, so, maybe you could just use one of those
<cwre>
ottidmes: I'm already on KDE, haha.
<cwre>
Wish me luck.
<cwre>
Gnight!
<cwre>
Thanks for trying to help
<cwre>
I really appreciate it
<ottidmes>
cwre: Good luck with KDE and figuring out more of NixOS, it is really worth it in my opinion! Good night
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<boomshroom>
Is it possible to install GNU Guix in the same partition as NixOS using a shared store? If that's possible, then any number of Nix based OSes could theoretically be installed into the same environment without conflicts.\
<catern>
boomshroom: there was definitely a point at which Guix and Nix could share a store
<boomshroom>
by GNU Guix, I mean GuixSD.
<catern>
I don't know if it's still true
<gchristensen>
guix uses a different / now
<gchristensen>
they use /guix/store I think
<catern>
gchristensen: sure sure but you could still conceivably merge them together with a bind mount or something
<gchristensen>
yeah
<catern>
gchristensen: also it's /gnu/store
<gchristensen>
you could concievably merge all /nix/store/*'s together and get fhs
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<catern>
is that sarcasm? :)
<gchristensen>
just that b/c you can doesn't mean that it makes it compatible :P
<catern>
yes
<catern>
that is why I said
<catern>
"there was definitely a point at which Guix and Nix could share a store"
<catern>
because they were compatible at one point
<catern>
at that time, you could bind mount them together and it would work
<boomshroom>
According to the build instructions, guix has a --disable-daemon flag to make it use Nix instead, and options to change the store and state directories.
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<boomshroom>
speaking of which, is it possible to get the store and state directories used for the running nix instance, or should I just guess at /nix/{store,var}?
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<fresheyeball>
anyone seen a nix-shell fail with this?
<fresheyeball>
*** abort because of serious configure-time warning from Cabal
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<boomshroom>
Along the same lines of guix, clever, do you know if it's currently possible to install not-os into a separate profile and boot from it?
<boomshroom>
clever: ^
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<cwre>
which package is for discord?
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<boomshroom>
Building Guix on NixOS. Wish me luck. Or don't; too much luck and the chance of an unpredictable uutcome decreases and unpredictability is fun.
<boomshroom>
*outcome
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<boomshroom>
OK, so trying to build guix leads to an error of guile not being found. It specifically mentions the development packages, but guile-2.2.0-dev/include is present in NIX_CFLAGS_COMPILE. Does anyone know what the problem is?
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<cwre>
So... Konsole won't keep my profile settings and Suspend to RAM is garbage.
* cwre
sighs
<cwre>
The joy of KDE.
<boomshroom>
It seems adding pkgconfig to either buildInputs or nativeBuildInputs solves that problem.
<cwre>
Which one?
<joehh>
sjouke: I haven't spotted your earlier help, but wouldn't you just run cabal configure
<joehh>
and cabal build within the nix-shell
<joehh>
sjouke: what command did you use to enter your nix-shell
<boomshroom>
From what I can tell, Guix can be configured to use the nix-daemon, but maintains its own store and localstatedir. Is there any word on having guix and nix respect each others gc roots when using a shared store?
<dalaing>
joehh: normally you run nix-build from outside of the nix-shell (unless I've missed something about your use case)
<dalaing>
whoops, read-o
<joehh>
:)
<dalaing>
we have mandatory pub lunch on Fridays, that probably didn't help :)
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<dalaing>
I'll help if I can, but I'm struggling to find your problem in the scrollback
<cwre>
Konsole is literally garbage. What's the point of having profiles if you fucking ignore them?
<cwre>
Hmm me?
<cwre>
Konsole won't keep my profile settings and Suspend to RAM is garbage.
<pikajude>
ugh
<pikajude>
why does hydra never build
<cwre>
StR freezes on resume.
<catern>
boomshroom: there was a guix package in nixpkgs at one point, look at that
<pikajude>
i don't understand
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<fresheyeball>
what is nar info?
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<NixOS_GitHub>
[nixpkgs] KaiHa opened pull request #27534: diffoscope: wrap executable and include tools in PATH (master...master) https://git.io/v7Jj4
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<boomshroom>
Yay, GNU Hello built on my university install of Nix! ^_^
<boomshroom>
That said, it doesn't seem to have created a .nix-profile.
<dash>
boomshroom: building stuff won't create .nix-profile
<dash>
nix-env -i puts stuff there
<boomshroom>
dash: it was a nix-env
<boomshroom>
Which stdenv is the default one? I want to make sure I don't have to rebuild it when compiling every package.
<boomshroom>
after a GC.
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<celph>
More specifically: what the elipses are supposed to mean
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<celph>
Do I need to clone pkgs and build inside it?
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<NixOS_GitHub>
[nixpkgs] Ericson2314 opened pull request #27536: WIP linking hack for macOS Sierra (master...appease-sierra-linker) https://git.io/v7Uvz
<srhb>
hyper_ch: (The leftmost common is the most recent build, which has failures)
<srhb>
Er, column
<hyper_ch>
plasma is causing issues
<srhb>
hyper_ch: There was a recent build that succeeded (56296734
<srhb>
But a failure on hydra caused the channel to not advance
<srhb>
So we'll have to wait for the next successful build.
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<hyper_ch>
thx
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<NixOS_GitHub>
[nixpkgs] vdemeester opened pull request #27539: Fix docker packaging without sandbox (master...fix-docker) https://git.io/v7UtT
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<NixOS_GitHub>
[nixpkgs] globin pushed 1 new commit to master: https://git.io/v7Utu
<NixOS_GitHub>
nixpkgs/master 1932555 Vincent Demeester: Fix docker packaging without sandbox...
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<Filystyn>
helo
<sphalerite[m]>
ehlo
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<Filystyn>
im gona now try your solution from yesterday
<hyper_ch>
that would be?
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<Filystyn>
annnd it did not work but i think i know where is the problem
<Filystyn>
steam-run fucks up
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<Filystyn>
i have binary ( no source ) that is runed inside my script.c with system maybe ill just add steam-run there
<Filystyn>
just a sec
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<Filystyn>
worked
<Filystyn>
sphaletrin problem wa si runed not compile don nix binary inside
<Filystyn>
my program
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<spear2>
was there a problem with networking in 1482 ?
<spear2>
no iwconfig, interfaces in display manager doesn't show any devices besides loop
<bennofs>
1482?
<spear2>
17.03.1482
<spear2>
ISO
<bennofs>
hmm sorry i don't know, last time I used the ISO i used the unstable minimal one
<spear2>
i had a slightly older minimal ISO that appeared to work, thought i would use the newer one that finished downloading, however it was the graphical version
<spear2>
guess i'll just try the latest minimal installer
<bennofs>
spear2: i don't think the minimal vs graphical will affect anything
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<spear2>
well, it will be faster to download :)
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<NixOS_GitHub>
[nixpkgs] dezgeg pushed 1 new commit to master: https://git.io/v7UOU
<NixOS_GitHub>
nixpkgs/master 581637b Tuomas Tynkkynen: yle-dl: 2.17 -> 2.20
<cinimod>
But I wanted to say thank you to everyone who has helped me
<IITaudio_>
cinimod: I'm not an haskell dev so I'm sorry I can't help. But if you are sure you want to stop using it I suggest you to keep an eye on it. For me it introduced new kind of problems, but nonetheless it solved others
<cinimod>
I'd rather not but now I am stuck
<cinimod>
Also people whose opinions I admire use nix
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<cinimod>
And now I am building lens :(
<cinimod>
But at least this route will work (fingers crossed)
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<bennofs>
ah, darwin :/ these darwin failures are quite hard to understand if you don't happen to own a Mac :)
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<NixOS_GitHub>
[nixpkgs] globin pushed 1 new commit to master: https://git.io/v7UWO
<stranger__>
mudri: I've once tried wayland/sway and it worked. but not yet switched to it from x11/i3 as there is still no login manager https://github.com/NixOS/nixpkgs/issues/5071
<mudri>
stranger__: thanks! I might try a similar setup. Are there configuration.nix options and so on?
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<NixOS_GitHub>
[nixpkgs] NeQuissimus pushed 4 new commits to master: https://git.io/v7UEh
<NixOS_GitHub>
nixpkgs/master 5181d75 Tim Steinbach: linux: 4.4.77 -> 4.4.78
<NixOS_GitHub>
nixpkgs/master 232f497 Tim Steinbach: linux: 4.9.38 -> 4.9.39
<NixOS_GitHub>
nixpkgs/master 98ad0f4 Tim Steinbach: linux: 4.12.2 -> 4.12.3
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<stranger__>
mudri: I've just disabled the xserver, added sway to packages, and run sway on the console and it worked. Missing login manager :-)
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<NixOS_GitHub>
[nixpkgs] NeQuissimus pushed 4 new commits to release-17.03: https://git.io/v7Uum
<NixOS_GitHub>
nixpkgs/release-17.03 4950dc5 Tim Steinbach: linux: 4.4.77 -> 4.4.78...
<NixOS_GitHub>
nixpkgs/release-17.03 5a44619 Tim Steinbach: linux: 4.9.38 -> 4.9.39...
<NixOS_GitHub>
nixpkgs/release-17.03 9e426c5 Tim Steinbach: linux: 4.12.2 -> 4.12.3...
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<mudri>
Aah, right, that makes sense.
<mudri>
stranger__: Maybe I should try i3 in X11 first, and use the same config for sway (if that's how it works).
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<stranger__>
mudri: perhaps, if they missing default config or wizard. you could also try mutter (gnome) or way-cooler :-)
<deltasquared>
gchristensen: did you solve the nss module issue for yourself in the end
<gchristensen>
deltasquared: I left it as a TODO :) I have limited time to get $work running NixOS on hack day :)
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<deltasquared>
my hack days are weekends. I need to get an rsync thing going for my desktop tower, as the gigabit ethernet adapter in it is currently the only way of getting data to it fast enough (it only has USB2 ports and I'm going to be shifting a lot of data frequently)
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<NixOS_GitHub>
[nixpkgs] Mic92 closed pull request #27528: armadillo: Make use of openBLAS's built-in LAPACK (master...fix-armadillo-lapack) https://git.io/v7Jcu
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<NixOS_GitHub>
[nixpkgs] Mic92 pushed 4 new commits to master: https://git.io/v7Uo1
<NixOS_GitHub>
nixpkgs/master eea396c Patrick Callahan: pythonPackages.arrow: 0.7.0 -> 0.10.0
<NixOS_GitHub>
nixpkgs/master 98fe450 Patrick Callahan: pythonPackages.pympler: disable tests on Darwin since the included...
<NixOS_GitHub>
nixpkgs/master ce67c7c Jörg Thalheim: pythonPackages.arrow: move to python-modules
<NickHu>
Is it a reasonable workflow to have the system tracking nixos-unstable and have my local profile (i.e. nix-env operations) track nixpkgs-unstable?
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<NixOS_GitHub>
[nixpkgs] edolstra pushed 2 new commits to master: https://git.io/v7UoH
<NixOS_GitHub>
nixpkgs/master 3e68fac Eelco Dolstra: Revert "diffoscope: wrap executable and include tools in PATH"...
<NixOS_GitHub>
nixpkgs/master 91dc811 Eelco Dolstra: diffoscope: Move all required tools into pythonPath...
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<gchristensen>
NickHu: sure
<gchristensen>
that should be just fine
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<NickHu>
gchristensen: I'm guessing that services in /etc/nixos/configuration.nix won't respect use new versions of packages I install with nix-env though..
<gchristensen>
it won't
<cwre>
So... Suspend to RAM. It's supposed to work, right? There's no open issues that I can find that says there's an error when resuming. When I close my laptop lid it'll suspend but then when I open my laptop again the screen is just blue with a mouse cursor and it's frozen, can't change tty's or anything.
<NickHu>
cwre: Yeah that's not normal - what hardware are you on?
<cwre>
NickHu: MacBookPro11,5
<cwre>
From neofetch
<NickHu>
Usually things like this are because of crappy wifi drivers which cause some sort of kernel taint when you suspend
<NickHu>
I've heard macs have abysmal linux driver support, but I don't know
<cwre>
NickHu: well this is a broadcom wifi device
<cwre>
Also, how can I see what graphics driver it's using?
<cwre>
My device, that is.
<NickHu>
I don't think broadcom is great in that respect
<cwre>
I'm trying to use ati_unfree, but it seems like it doesn't work. I'm trying to give it additional options this time like intel and vesa, but I have a radeon discrete in here along with integrated graphics from intel.
<cwre>
NickHu: no, it's absolute trash.
<NickHu>
oh ati drivers
<NickHu>
rip
<NickHu>
Check lsmod to see if it's loaded
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<NickHu>
I thought Macs only had Nvidia cards
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<NixOS_GitHub>
[nixpkgs] GlennS opened pull request #27544: linode-api: init at 4.1.1b1 (master...linode-api-python) https://git.io/v7U6P
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<cwre>
NickHu: yeah typically!
<cwre>
Thanks Apple
<cwre>
NickHu: so you're saying like `lsmod | grep ati` right?
<cwre>
Nothing
<NickHu>
yeah something like that
<cwre>
I'm also enabling bumblebee
<NickHu>
I don't know what the kernel module for the ati driver is called
<cwre>
Maybe that will fix the issue?
<NickHu>
For nvidia it's nvidia
<NickHu>
Hard to say, bumblebee and graphics switching is a giant PITA
<cwre>
amdgpu
<cwre>
Yeah it's loaded
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<cwre>
But the unfree drivers don't seem to work.
<cwre>
And by don't seem I mean it bricks my machine on reboot.
<cwre>
The video module seems to be apple_gmux though
<cwre>
...?
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<cwre>
Okay, I added the amdgpu module to hardware-configuration.nix
<NickHu>
I'm almost certain it's something to do with your graphics drivers
<cwre>
And my brightness buttons aren't working...
<cwre>
I have service.illum.enable = true; set
<bachp>
Die anybody else experience that SDDM doesn't start anymore on master?
<srhb>
bachp: Its test fails on hydra as well, so yes.
<srhb>
(I assume)
<cwre>
good morning srhb
<srhb>
cwre: Good afternoon :)
<deltasquared>
does that illium thing always work globally? I would hope so. any such solution would likely be a whole lot nicer than my current hacked-up setup of shell scripts
<bachp>
srhb: That would explain it 😁
<srhb>
bachp: Which means the current build will also fail. Sad.
<cwre>
deltasquared: I have no Idea.
<cwre>
But I would assume it does.
<srhb>
(oh well, hooray for hydra :))
<cwre>
srhb: any chance you know how to fix my problems? :) Konsole profiles and brightness buttons
<srhb>
cwre: I know absolutely nothing about desktop environments, I use a standalone xmonad.
<srhb>
cwre: Sorry!
<cwre>
:(
<cwre>
Understandable.
<deltasquared>
cwre: I just used a triggerhappy (global hotkey daemon which calls scripts on keys) setup writing to a pipe of a shell script daemon which changed backlight via the /sys controls. !shrug
<deltasquared>
I'm too used to hacks like that I guess
<srhb>
I bind my brightness keys to commands as well
<cwre>
Konsole has to be doing something stupid because it's being symlinked to oblivions
<srhb>
light -U -p "10%"
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<deltasquared>
for some reason occasionally the hotkey daemon fucks up on VT switches, but usually un-fucks itself in due course.
<deltasquared>
must be logind doing it's pause thing or something...
<adisblad`>
bachp: That's a known issue
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<cwre>
srhb: I have light installed but it's not letting me change my brightness
<srhb>
cwre: Doesn't KDE allow you to bind the brightness keys somehow?
<deltasquared>
ohhhh, so this base16 thing is like a set of conventions for term colours, now I get it
<srhb>
Guess that's a driver thing then
<deltasquared>
even has a solarised variation.
<cwre>
deltasquared: yeah
<deltasquared>
*solarized. zzzzzzzZZZZZ argh every time
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<cwre>
lol
<cwre>
srhb: do you know what the drive would be?
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<cwre>
I only see one driver regarding brightness
<cwre>
And it's that illum thing
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<bachp>
adisblad`: Thanks that is what I was looking for
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<srhb>
cwre: cwre Do you have anything in /sys/class/backlight ?
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<adisbladis>
bachp: You are gonna be rebuilding a lot of stuff..
<deltasquared>
hmm. see SciTE allows mapping to symbolic constants, so I could associate the per-lang highlighters to use those constants then use an include in the top level to swap the base16 theme
<cwre>
Illum is broke.
<srhb>
cwre: Wait, this is on a laptop, right?
<cwre>
srhb: yeah
<srhb>
Ah, good.
<cwre>
gmux_backlight and radeon_bl0 are in that dir
<srhb>
cwre: What kind of values do they spit out if you cat them?
<bachp>
adisbladis: my machine can handle it
<cwre>
srhb: those are actually symlinked dirs
<adisbladis>
bachp: Just wanted to give you a heads up :)
<srhb>
cwre: Right, so something like cat /sys/class/backlight/*/brightness
<cwre>
srhb: there's a recusive symlink here
<cwre>
That's why it fails
<srhb>
Sounds fun!
<cwre>
Device is symlinked in gmux_backlight which is symlinked in backlight inside of device.
<cwre>
So...?
<cwre>
That's why illum fails.
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<cwre>
It detected the leak and stopped.
<cwre>
But what the fuck
<cwre>
DUDE THERE'S MORE IN HERE
<cwre>
HOW DOES THIS HAPPEN
<srhb>
I don't know if that's the driver going bonkers or something else.
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<cwre>
srhb: I mean it has to be the symlinking that's broken so I think this might be a nix issue.
<cwre>
Like, why is it symlinking like that?
<srhb>
cwre: Why do you think that's Nix?
<srhb>
cwre: Not saying you're wrong, it might be some udev shenanigans.
<cwre>
I mean, didn't nix set up that upon install?
<cwre>
I'm wondering what happens when I delete the symlink
<cwre>
Probably bad things.
<srhb>
I would have assumed that the kernel set that up as part of sysfs
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<cwre>
What kind of dir is /sys/class/backlight/gmux_backlight/device/driver/00:03
<cwre>
???
<cwre>
And that's a symlink loop, too.
<deltasquared>
cwre: try stat'ing some of the paths. also symlink loops are expected
<cwre>
What do you mean by stating
<deltasquared>
run "stat" on some of the parent directories of that path you specified
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<deltasquared>
some of them often lead to other subsystems inside /sys
<deltasquared>
symlinks in general in /sys are weird
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<deltasquared>
they can break associativity on .. and such
<deltasquared>
for example, my /sys/class/backlight/intel_backlight is a symlink to "../../devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:02.0/drm/card0/card0-LVDS-1/intel_backlight", which works out to be a path under /sys/devices... etc.
<srhb>
dshin: Look at nix options, nix.buildCores for instance
<cwre>
NickHu: where do I put those in Nix?
<cwre>
hardware config?
<cwre>
gtg for now
<cwre>
be back in a half hour
<deltasquared>
cwre: see if it's a hybrid system I would have been tempted to see if intel_backlight would do anything (assuming the outputs go via the intel chip so the AMD chip can be turned off)
<deltasquared>
also dmesg | grep backlight couldn't hurt
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<srhb>
cwre: boot.kernelParams is where you put those arguments
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<charlycoste>
is there a recommended way to configure encrypted luks partitions so it can work well with plymouth ?
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<charlycoste>
I didn't find any tutorial about it
<dshin>
Is there a way to install multiple package versions without conflict?
<srhb>
dshin: Install in what sense?
<deltasquared>
dshin: that's kinda a feature already in one sense
<srhb>
dshin: They trivially coexist in the store.
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<gpyh>
hi
<deltasquared>
welcome to #nixos, tell us how you fu- oh wait, that's not the line here
<gpyh>
I have a weird problem that I don't know how to debug. I installed a Wordpress server on a nixos-container. If I make an HTTP request from the container it's instantaneous. But if I make it from the host it takes more than 10sec. I tried with a simple netcat server and there's not problem. It's *very* weird.
<gpyh>
no*
<gpyh>
I've never had any problem with node servers either. If it's related to apache I wonder what's happening
<deltasquared>
gpyh: that sounds like the name lookup is timing out.
<deltasquared>
is this going to be *another* nss module issue... DX
<gpyh>
I hit the container with its IP address. Does that warrant a name lookup?
<deltasquared>
... huh, no it shouldn't
<gpyh>
I'm so confused by this issue. I wished I knew how to "trace" an HTTP request to see what's going on
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<srhb>
it only it didn't work entirely I'd suggest firewall.checkReversePath = false;
<srhb>
But ten seconds timeout is.. weird.
<gpyh>
I disabled the firewall
<srhb>
Is apache trying to lookup the client perhaps?
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<NixOS_GitHub>
[nixpkgs] fpletz pushed 1 new commit to release-17.03: https://git.io/v7UHB
<NixOS_GitHub>
nixpkgs/release-17.03 d49a115 Tim Steinbach: openjdk: 8u131-b11 -> 8u141-b15...
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<srhb>
(I would be surprised if that's the default, but...)
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<gpyh>
srhb: I just tailed apache's access-log
<gpyh>
it receives the request at the end of the 10sec
<gpyh>
so it's probably not Apache
<srhb>
Doesn't it log when the request ends?
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<gpyh>
I'll find out
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<NixOS_GitHub>
[nixpkgs] volth opened pull request #27546: environment.etc: allow usernames in environment.etc.*.{uid,gid} (master...etc-name-owners) https://git.io/v7UQl
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<srhb>
gpyh: I don't know, it just really sounds like one of those issues that might occur from reverse lookups, wp might also be doing gethostbyaddr or some weird stuff, you could test lookups from the container.
<srhb>
If that's not it, I've no idea.
<gpyh>
it writes it at the end and prints out the time at which the request was received
<srhb>
Whether or not it manages a reconnect seems arbitrary.
<deltasquared>
connman? is that the new wifi thing?
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<srhb>
I don't know if it's new, I think it's an intel thing, but yes.
<deltasquared>
oh wait, iwd is what "plugs in" to connman to provide wifi things.
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<deltasquared>
supposedly a bit better at remembering state between invocations.
<deltasquared>
also being able to use AF_ALG more easily!
<srhb>
AF_ALG?
<deltasquared>
(meaning hardware crypto accel if that's your thing)
<srhb>
Ah.
<deltasquared>
srhb: it's a netlink socket family. you can tell the kernel "decrypt this" and it'll talk to crypto coprocessors etc. which userspace can't
<deltasquared>
not sure why it ain't a chardev
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<gpyh>
srhb: got it. It's indeed a reverse lookup that times out. I need network access from the container. Problem now is that I don't know how to do that...
<gpyh>
deltasquared: thank you aswell, you were right ;)
<srhb>
gpyh: The NixOS manual has a chapter on containers that I think addresses this
<deltasquared>
gpyh: oh wait, so the server did a reverse lookup to test the origin address... possibly it is an nss issue then
<deltasquared>
what it's trying to touch though, I have no idea
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<pi3r>
Does someone know how to add the git master version of the protolude into haskell.packages.ghc821 using overlays ?
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<gpyh>
srhb: I followed the instructions. ping 8.8.8.8 can't send any packet :(
<pi3r>
I can manage such a override for the default ghc compiler (haskellPackages) but I don't see how to do it for `ghc812`)
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<srhb>
gpyh: Perhaps you can make a paste of what you did step-by-step and someone can assist.
<gpyh>
sure!
<srhb>
pi3r: haskell.packages.ghc812.override ?
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<srhb>
gpyh: For the record, I just created a declarative container and it immediately had network access. I do have checkReversePath = false though
<gpyh>
I'll switch to a declarative then for the time being, thanks
<srhb>
gpyh: The nat config should go on the host
<pi3r>
srhb: in overlays/default.nix I can do `ghc821= super.haskell.packages.ghc821.override` but it does not magically override `haskell.packages.ghc821` if you see what I means.
<gpyh>
I have feelings of joy mixed with feelings of shame right now :P Thanks a lot for your patience and your help
<srhb>
gpyh: Don't, I'm not even sure that's sufficient :-)
<srhb>
pi3r: I don't think I got enough context there. That's not even a valid override.
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<dshin>
Is there a faster way to query packages? I'm doing nix-env -qaP | grep -i mypkgname, and it usually takes around 5 seconds to get the result
<srhb>
dshin: You can use nox, which i believe uses a cache
<dash>
dshin: i keep the output in a file and grep it later
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<dash>
but most of the time i grep all-packages.nix
<dshin>
i see. thanks
<gpyh>
srhb: I did work! Apache now answers instantly
<srhb>
gpyh: Networking is voodoo. Glad you got it to work :)
<gpyh>
thanks again ;)
<srhb>
Welcome.
<ToxicFrog>
dshin: I use the package search website, but it doesn't include nonfree (yet)
<dtzWill>
dshin: depending on what you're doing, 'man configuration.nix' is often helpful for "what can I easily do with a NixOS system" particularly re:services/options/etc
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<cwre>
Anyone have MacBook brightness working?
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<cwre>
Still struggling, could use some pointers
<ottidmes>
dshin: I generally tend to just Google for it with: nixpkgs pkg-name, which then gives me the service (if there is any) and the package, one benefit is that you have to be less exact, but the downside is that it might miss something, I have not run into this problem, with Github, yes, plenty of time it missed something, with Google search, not that I can remember
<dshin>
the package search website is awesome. thanks dtzWill, ToxicFrog
<ToxicFrog>
dshin: there's also an options search webpage, which is similarly great
<cwre>
ottidmes: do you know how I could apply this? I've never applied a kernel patch before.
<ottidmes>
cwre: That makes two of us :P Never had the need so far, should probably not be too difficult in NixOS
<cwre>
srhb: any chance you have time to help me learn to kernel patch? D:
<srhb>
cwre: Look at how an example kernelpatch looks, duplicate that with your changes, add to boot.kernelPatches
<srhb>
*cough* that's the high-level description ;-)
<cwre>
Where do I put the patch to reference it?
<srhb>
cwre: Either you import it under some name in configuration.nix or you add it to your nixpkgs checkout with corresponding fixes to all-packages.nix
<srhb>
I would suggest the former
<pbogdan>
cwre: on NixOS you can do boot.kernelPatches = [ { patch = /path/to/some.patch; name = "some name"; } ];
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<pbogdan>
so just save it anywhere locally and adjust the path as needed (assuming the patch applies cleanly on the kernel you're using)
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<srhb>
cwre: You can see other examples in os-specific/linux/kernel/patches.nix
<srhb>
cwre: (They're basically just that.)
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<srhb>
cwre: If it doesn't change, neither does the hash.
<cwre>
Where would I get the hash, anyway?
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<srhb>
cwre: Put in a wrong one and rebuild, depending on it. The error will tell you the right hash.
<cwre>
Mm, okay.
<srhb>
Or you can use nix-prefetch-url
<ottidmes>
I saw an issue on the nixpkgs github about whether you could switch network settings without using nixos-rebuild switch everytime. This made me wonder, is there already a general solution towards these kind of use cases? There has been nix profiles for ages, but let's call them NixOS profiles, do they already exist?
<srhb>
ottidmes: No, I think people generally write up some systemd services for those things.
<srhb>
Of course, that sidesteps the issue instead of fixing it.
<ottidmes>
Or would that basically come down automating the switching of the NixOS configuration and calling nixos-rebuild switch?
<ottidmes>
In technology age does not really mean a lot, only that you are likely to have more knowledge to fallback on, but other that, things are moving so fast that most things are not that old, so someone just starting good be just as much as an expert on something as someone who has a lot more working experience in general (absolute in years)
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<dash>
ottidmes: for particular subject matter yes
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<dash>
ottidmes: but it takes time to absorb programming wisdom
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<dash>
there's plenty of old fools in programming, but more young ones
<cwre>
srhb: so... Could I theoretically make a package for this patch? Or is there a better way to make this easily available for other users?
<cwre>
Hasn't finished patching yet... But once I confirm it works I'd like to allow others who need it to use it.
<srhb>
cwre: It basically is a package by the time you've done that. You'll just have to include it in the file I referenced earlier and submit a pull request on that. :)
<cwre>
:OOOOOO
<srhb>
cwre: inorite.
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<cwre>
If this works, this'll be my very first contribution to a large project
<srhb>
cwre: Excellent!
<srhb>
cwre: nixpkgs is a gateway drug to oss contribution.
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<cwre>
Because it's so easy.
<srhb>
Yep :)
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<srhb>
You should base your branch on master or nixos-unstable by the way
<srhb>
Before submitting the PR I mean
<cwre>
I'm running unstable
<cwre>
So I'd do that.
<srhb>
Ah, easy :)
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<srhb>
cwre: This is why I point my nixos at my local checkout by the way
<srhb>
cwre: Testing is trivial when your system is based off the repo. :-)
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<cwre>
I don't really understand how all that works.
<srhb>
cwre: I just have channels/nixos-unstable checked out there by default.
<srhb>
cwre: Switching around as needed, and rebuilding.
<cwre>
Mmm, okay.
<srhb>
(Where channels is a remote for nixpkgs-channels, upstream is nixpkgs, and origin is my nixpkgs fork)
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<dshin>
Is there a way to change the "result/include" directory for a specific package in a build env? I want to use the header files from both protobuf3_2 and protobuf3_1, but there's a conflict in the symlink paths
<cwre>
How long do patches take? D:
<srhb>
cwre: Patches not long, rebuilding the kernel might take 10 minutes or something
<srhb>
cwre: Well, I'm not sure you're actually stuck :-)
<cwre>
I'm not stuck, but I'm trying to understand how it works.
<srhb>
Consider: foo = a: bar a
<srhb>
bar = b: baz b
<srhb>
baz: c: ...
<cwre>
So a function calls a function a which calls a function b which calls a function c which adds all args'
<srhb>
Now let's go backwards and "inline" the function definitions
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<srhb>
ie. substitute in the defintions of first bar in foo
<srhb>
so foo becomes
<cwre>
Let me!
<srhb>
OK!
<cwre>
foo = a: b: c: ...?
<srhb>
cwre: Exactly
<cwre>
Yeah, so I guess it was too simple for me to understand xD
<cwre>
Expected it to be more confusing.
<srhb>
Simple ideas are often the most complicated to understand :-P
<mbrock>
`(a: b: c: a + b + c) 1 2 3' evaluates to `1 + 2 + 3' by three function applications: first bind a=1 getting `(b: c: 1 + b + c) 2 3', then bind b=2 getting `(c: 1 + 2 + c)', then bind c=3 getting `1 + 2 + 3'
<catern>
mbrock: it's vaugely important to note that that's not quite right
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<mbrock>
yeah? I thought I was so careful...
<cwre>
yeah, this must remind me of verilog.
<catern>
the first evaluation gives you `(b: c: a + b + c) 2 3', with a bound to 1
<mbrock>
in that case, min is just taking one argument, and that argument is an attribute set
<mbrock>
though colloquially you might say that it takes the arguments "a" and "b"
<mbrock>
it's a nice design in Nix that packages are mostly defined as such functions -- that they're parameterized with their dependencies, leaving the exact choice of dependency unspecified until use
<mbrock>
(so called "dependency injection" in the OO world)
<ottidmes>
Ghehe, I had to loop up "colloquially", English not being my native language. And when I read that is basically means informally, I always think in such instances, why then not just use the word informally, but there probably is some nuance to it.
<joepie91>
(step-by-step walkthrough of the language)
<jeaye>
ottidmes: I would rather define colloquially as conversationally.
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<joepie91>
ottidmes: colloquial refers specifically to language, whereas 'informal' is a more generic descriptor that's usually used to talk about behaviour, attitudes, etc.
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<ottidmes>
jeaye: The dictionary agrees with you, it is the first alternative given ;)
<ottidmes>
joepie91: Ah, thanks for the insight :)
* jeaye
uses wordnet locally with a bash fn for these sorts of things.
<dash>
dict.org is nice too
<joepie91>
ottidmes: one case I forgot: "informal" is also often used to describe situations or environments
<cwre>
Well and a word could be used informally but not have a colloquial meaning.
<ottidmes>
joepie91: Yeah, informal is rather a broad term
<cwre>
Like how the eggplant emoji means penis for whatever reason.
<joepie91>
(I'm totally procrastinating here)
<cwre>
I can tell ;)
<ottidmes>
I was just suprised I had not clue what the word meant, other then its context
<joepie91>
back to studying Rust :P
<clever>
joepie91: do you know much about how 'cargo fetch' runs?
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<joepie91>
clever: not yet! ask me again in a month
<joepie91>
:P
<joepie91>
(my practical experience with Rust is very limited so far)
<cwre>
srhb: it's still building :(
<joepie91>
(but I intend to spend more time on it)
<ottidmes>
I find it somewhat funny that I recently started to use C for something else then my Pebble watchface, while if you start out, Rust would be way better, but I have yet to write something considerable in Rust
<joepie91>
$ cargo help fetch
<joepie91>
Fetch dependencies of a package from the network.
<joepie91>
:)
<clever>
joepie91: except, nixpkgs has done some trickery to provide it everything pre-fetched
<joepie91>
"If a lockfile is available, this command will ensure that all of the git dependencies and/or registries dependencies are downloaded and locally available. The network is never touched after a `cargo fetch` unless the lockfile changes."
<dash>
ottidmes: sounds like he didn't learn how to write non-tiny programs in haskell
<srhb>
cwre: Looks like mine took 20 minutes.
<simpson>
ottidmes: Learning a new language does not make one worse at programming. It's like saying that learning a new instrument makes you worse at instruments that you already know.
<joepie91>
ottidmes: yep, familiar with the points mentioned there. it's not a big issue for me, because I have a tendency to just build the necessary tooling myself if something is missing :P
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<joepie91>
and cobble together bits and pieces from other languages
<joepie91>
and other tooling
<ottidmes>
dash: He is basically saying right from the start: "even though I have used Haskell very little"
<clever>
joepie91: i find i dont even look hard enough for such tooling
<dash>
ottidmes: "a little learning is a dangerous thing ..."
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<joepie91>
ottidmes: a second way in which I cheat is by writing the documentation on how to use the more complex things :)
<dash>
useful lessons from haskell can be applied to C# but not at the scale of 1-10 lines of code
<joepie91>
(I've realized that I'm half programmer, half technical writer)
<dash>
Bernhardt's "Boundaries" talk is a good description of them
<ottidmes>
simpson: I did not say I wholeheartedly agreed with the blog post, I mean I said "better and worse". I however do agree, that you might become worse in being a certain type of programmer, but overall, sure you will always be better of learning new languages
<joepie91>
ottidmes: simplified explanation, explains some of the concepts, well enough to 1) make people intuitively understand code using it, and 2) make them use it themselves
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<joepie91>
so I don't have to deal with the "WHY DON'T YOU JUST USE A FOR LOOP" :)
<simpson>
ottidmes: That is straight-up not my experience, and I know dozens of languages. Could you give me an example of how knowing a certain language makes you worse at programming?
<dash>
learning php made me dumber
<ottidmes>
dash: Agreed, I like to think more about paradigms and ways of thinking about programming than programming languages themselves, although there clearly are differences between languages even if they support the same way of thinking, the more fundamental insights are made by truly gasping other paradigms
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<dash>
ottidmes: that's why i started implementing a new programming language :)
<ottidmes>
dash: That is why I am working on a new paradigm ;)
<dash>
ottidmes: do you have a newsletter I can subscribe to
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<simpson>
ottidmes: A new theory of computation, or a new theory of arranging code?
<dash>
("My project is a paradigm too!")
<ottidmes>
simpson: Sure, I am worse at writing certain software in certain languages that I was in the past, because I used to be more comfortable with certain boilerplate code, while now I will try and work around said boilerplate code
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<ottidmes>
dash: Not as of yet, but once I have enough material about it, I will definitely make it open to the public, because that is the only way for it to grow
<simpson>
ottidmes: Why is not wanting boilerplate a bad thing?
<ottidmes>
simpson: Making me less productive in those languages than I use too, but overall I would say I am steady becoming a better programmer, but e.g. I am a way worse code monkey type of programmer than I used to be
<simpson>
ottidmes: Are you saying that it's bad that, having returned to the cave, you can now see how to do things differently?
<simpson>
ottidmes: Are you really sure that you were productive before? Or did you just write a lot of code? They are different things.
<simpson>
Anyway, I'm interested in your new paradigm and how it works. I want details.
<cwre>
srhb: it's done!
<cwre>
rebooting to see if it works
<justlex>
any lispfanboy here? who could encourage me to learn lisp instead of language X
<gchristensen>
nope
<gchristensen>
use whatever makes you happy :)
<cwre>
srhb: it works! Praise RMS!
<simpson>
justlex: What's your goal?
<catern>
~Language X~, a secret language developed by government scientists in Area 51
<cwre>
catern: and then some schmuck in a basement will make XXX because they won't merge a PR.
<ottidmes>
simpson: You seem to miss my point. From a theoretical perspective you are completely right, but from a practical or business perspective, getting things done quick, good enough and understandable enough for you teammates is more benifical then thinking too much about how to remove certain boilerplate code, that is not really problematic or might be thrown out sooner rather than later anyway
<simpson>
catern: Divs, CSS / React and JS / these were the ingredients chosen to create the perfect Web app / but the professor added an extra ingredient to the concoction / LANGUAGE X
<catern>
having the strength of ten lisps, language X computes in the defense of truth, justice, and the american way
<catern>
simpson: :D
<mbrock>
justlex: Lisp (at least Common Lisp, but also Emacs Lisp for example), along with Smalltalk, is a very unusual environment compared to almost all other languages, and you can do some pretty amazing things
<justlex>
simpson: great quesstion! verry correct one. my goal is to just earn money, do own business in order to enjoy skydiving\watertiving\thaigirlsdiving\yacht. and eachtime someone suggest lisp\math I don't feel it correlates to my main goal.
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<catern>
offtopic?
<simpson>
ottidmes: No, that is the line of thinking that leads to technical debt. Your engineers should always be mindful of how to make code more maintainable.
<ottidmes>
justlex: I can only encourage Clojure to some extent, I really like much of the thinking about it, but it is not the language for me
<gchristensen>
justlex: quite off topic :)
<simpson>
justlex: If you want money, go into finance.
<ottidmes>
simpson: Agreed, they should be mindful, but for certain kind jobs, I probably have become to mindful
<simpson>
ottidmes: I can't share details, but based on the day job I just left, I have to disagree. Things should be documented, tested, maintained, etc. There should not be any code which there is not somebody responsible for somewhere in the organization.
<gchristensen>
^^^^^
<simpson>
ottidmes: Anyway, I really would like to read documentation on your new language design ideas. As a language designer, I am very interested in new theories of computation and code arrangement.
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<ottidmes>
simpson: Hmm, I agree with you, but what I meant is, basically I get annoyed at using e.g. Java way more quickly than I used, because I notice much boilerplate and patterns than I have trouble abstracting
<mbrock>
there's the argument that technical debt is not a bad thing, it's like financial debt: you'd like to pay it back at a reasonable pace, but this debt can still be really useful
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<simpson>
ottidmes: Well, yeah, Java is not really able to do any meta-programming, so abstracting common patterns is nearly impossible. That doesn't make you a bad programmer; it makes Java a bad language.
<mbrock>
and if you're too afraid of debt, you might not be able to finance the thing you want to make fast enough
<ottidmes>
simpson: Unfortunately I do not have the time right now to continue working on it as much as I would like, but it has been brewing for years now and I have yet to find any language that matches what my approach is
<dash>
ottidmes: that's why we keep having new languages
<mbrock>
of course most businesses I've seen have been totally swamped in an ever-growing pile of horrible technical debt that they can never find the time to pay off
<simpson>
mbrock: Yes, and that argument is why "technical debt" is a bad term. The way that we "pay it back" is very different from evenly-spaced evenly-apportioned payments, and the effect is very different too.
<simpson>
mbrock: Whereas, in finance, having some debt is not just acceptable, but (as you said) beneficial if it improves capital utilization and cash flow.
<ottidmes>
mbrock: Exactly, and although I personally hate having to create technical debt, especially since I am now aware of creating it most of the times, most companies still want to make the tradeoff, and unfortunately they tend to prefer more debt then I would like
<simpson>
ottidmes: I've been "brewing for years" and as a result I have a pile of code and docs. Do you have anything written down?
<dash>
simpson: OTOH most technical debt is dealt with by declaring technical bankruptcy and abandoning the codebase :)
<simpson>
ottidmes: So stop giving employers those opportunties. Work on stuff that is not going to create more debt.
<ottidmes>
simpson: I agree, that is why I plan to start my own company ;) freedom in the technology I want to use
<simpson>
dash: Ever seen a project manager say "we'll get to it next quarter"? I got to see a goalpost get bumped for *nine quarters*.
<dash>
simpson: Me too, and the larger project our service supported was cancelled for other reasons, so putting those things off was wise
<justlex>
I feel like many people could write a lot of fast productive useful software on C, instead of messing with buggy java\javascript\otherlanguage
<ottidmes>
simpson: I have plenty written down about it so far (privately), but I want to have a working prototype with clear examples first to show my idea is feasible and work out some potential issues in my thinking
<dash>
justlex: No.
<joepie91>
justlex: err, what?
<simpson>
justlex: It is highly likely that there are no people able to write correct C of any serious amount.
<dash>
simpson: Well, there's DJB
<dash>
but it's not clear if he's human, really
<simpson>
justlex: As a consequence, nobody should be writing C.
<gchristensen>
justlex: I wonder if ##programming would be a better place to discuss this
<mbrock>
djb is also really good at splitting his systems into separate programs according to "the Unix philosophy"
<simpson>
dash: It's also not clear whether his code is correct or just carefully-written; he has a feud with optimizing compiler authors, which usually indicates an animus against the C language standard.
<clever>
simpson: the GHC RTS has a hefty amount of C in it...
<joepie91>
obligatory note about "working" and "correct" not being the same thing, and only one of those two having any future value whatsoever
<joepie91>
(and it's not "working")
<ottidmes>
I refuse to work on large C codebases, and only use C when I truly must, I don't dare use C++, especially since the point of C++ is to scale C programs and like I just said, no way I am working on such codebases
<joepie91>
that is; "working" only tells you that the software appeared to function as you expected at the precise moments you verified as such; it gives you zero assurances about whether it will work in the future, in other circumstances, environments, surviving changes, etc.
<ottidmes>
dash: What is the language you were working on?
<justlex>
most of my favourite gnu\linux\posix is written in C. and I ejoy it, it is fast, easy to use\distribute\compile, the best pieces are static binaries. but other software in java\otherfraweworks eats lot of ram\disk, requires huge runtime .
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<joepie91>
justlex: none of that has anything to do with 'buggy' nor necessarily performance
<joepie91>
also, none of the things you mentioned are "frameworks"
<joepie91>
plus RAM use is entirely dependent on runtime implementation
<ottidmes>
justlex: So small grokkable C programs, I do not mind those, if tested properly
<catern>
justlex: this is off topic, try ##programming instead
<simpson>
justlex: What is the *most* important part of a language to you? Is it speed, safety, readability, expressive power, toolability, etc.?
* mbrock
finds, after quite some experience with Rust and Haskell, that compilation speed is an actually significant factor
<ottidmes>
simpson and dash, nicely documented! I am quite sure I have seen it before, I try and find anything novel about programming languages
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<simpson>
mbrock: Sure, for some folks that is a primary concern, and there are languages like Oberon and Go where it appears to be either the top concern or close to it.
<ottidmes>
simpson: Hah, nice to see Nix is being used to install Monte
<dash>
we <3 nix
<mbrock>
I still use Haskell as my go-to language because it ticks so many of my other desirable factors
<simpson>
ottidmes: It's 2017; building our own package manager seemed rude.
<mbrock>
but I also try to be neutral and just look at the problems at hand and stay competent with many different languages
<mbrock>
that's something I love about Nix too, how it's based on this really great purely functional core, but then it's also a huge blob of shell scripts
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<cwre>
So... Is I want to submit a PR, what should I be cloning and modifying?
<mbrock>
'cause at the end of the day you just need the computer to do some stuff in the easiest and most straightforward way possible
<ottidmes>
simpson: But the short version of my programming paradigm is that I aim to allow programmer insights and knowledge to become concrete as part of the programs. To try and solve having the programmer play the pre-compiler too some extent and to be able to remove boilerplate code, and boilerplate decision making during withing programs and programming respectively
<justlex>
simpson: for me IMHO it is readability, high expressivness, speed of implementation and after that speed of execution, good libraries\frameworks, ability to call C & scripting language, ability to generate statically linked binaries for portability\deployment
<joepie91>
mbrock: fwiw, I find Nix to be a rather interesting language, due to how relatively simple and small it is
<simpson>
justlex: Pick *one*.
<joepie91>
mbrock: almost feels like the smallest possible functional real-world language one could possibly implement
<mbrock>
cwre: the basic workflow is probably to check out the master of github.com/NixOS/nixpkgs and make your change there. You can test it for example by `nix-env -f ~/my-nixpkgs-clone -i myPackage'
<ixxie>
simpson: monte looks cool
<simpson>
ottidmes: So is this a change to how computation works? It sounds more like a matter of tooling.
<justlex>
simpson: then Cython
<cwre>
mbrock: I'm actually adding a kernel patch to support macbook brightness
<simpson>
joepie91: Nix is pretty big compared to Scheme, for example. (Not Guile, but Scheme.)
<simpson>
justlex: I meant one feature, but sure. Cython's terrible, though; it forces you to write not-quite-Python and barely grants any speedup. Have you tried PyPy?
<mbrock>
joepie91: I guess Dhall is supposed to be in some way the simplest typed and total functional language, actually I haven't researched it much though
<mbrock>
joepie91: it strikes me that Nix is kiiiind of like the JavaScript of pure functional languages ;)
<ixxie>
simpson: how does monte compare with things like actor models / Akka? Is there a historical connection?
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<joepie91>
mbrock: I'm very skeptical of the "typed" thing. static typing can be a valuable building block for other language features, but too many assign too much value to it in and of itself
<joepie91>
mbrock: mm, JS is still a lot more complex :P
<dash>
ixxie: yes
<simpson>
ixxie: Yep. Actors come from PLANNER and then Scheme, and Monte's ancestor E is part of that lineage. Monte vats are a lot like actors or Erlang processes.
<dash>
ixxie: come visit #monte :)
<justlex>
simpson: it boost my calculation of prime numbers with shit ton load of speed up! 100x faster than java\python
<ottidmes>
simpson: No, not tooling, although you could write off everything as being tooling, since in the end all compilers/interpreters are tools to run some program on your machine, and no it is not a fundamental new way of computing, but it new way of thinking about how to approach programming (just like functional programming is to imperative)
<joepie91>
too many people *
<simpson>
justlex: Try PyPy. Seriously.
<simpson>
ottidmes: When I said "theory of computation", I was hoping for something like lambda calculus, pi calculus, CoC, JVM-style, CVM-style, Horn clauses, Post correspondence, Wang tiles, etc.
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<simpson>
ottidmes: What are your values like? What kinds of operations do you do with values? What kind of formalism are you using underneath to relate them?
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<joepie91>
mbrock: anyway, my issue regarding 'static typing' can be summarized as: it prevents a very specific class of errors, that is a subset of another class of errors that can be almost entirely solved through good development practices, and the cost of static typing in terms of developer time/effort is generally not worth it compared to other solutions, when looking at the resulting value
<joepie91>
mbrock: (this only applies to static typing as a feature in and of itself)
<joepie91>
anyhow, brb
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<ottidmes>
simpson: I would not categorize it as such, it quite ungrounded by design, which necessary for it to achieve what it wants to achieve. So it that sense it is closer to tooling and not fundamental theory, but it is definitely an approach to programming, making it a paradigm (way of thinking) on its own
<simpson>
ottidmes: Okay. Well, if you ever write docs, I'll probably still be interested.
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<ottidmes>
simpson: That is why I want to make it more concrete first before I can show it off, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and all that, or better put otherwise it is just empty words
<ottidmes>
lambdael: Did you really meant toe? No typo? I cannot even find it on Google, regardless of NixOS
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<Filystyn>
guys
<Filystyn>
ntfs
<Filystyn>
i have packet for writing ntfs
<Filystyn>
it's still only reading
<Filystyn>
how to fix it ?
<romildo>
ottidmes, those links seem to be outdated. There were some incompatible changes in configuration with versions 4.x released this year. I am reading the doc at https://awesomewm.org/doc/api/libraries/awful.titlebar.html to find out.
<lambdael>
otttidmes: its terminal thing, i thought its in ncursors, but its not.
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<ottidmes>
Filystyn: Do you have something like udisk / gvfs on your system?
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<ottidmes>
Filystyn: Yeah, I assume it is something external, and udisk is often (always?) used for handling that, and polkit to determine privilages (probably your issue)
<ottidmes>
Filystyn: What environment are you in? A desktop enviroment such as e.g. KDE or Gnome, or no GUI at all, or just window manager (often the case for tiling window managers)
<Filystyn>
xfce
<ottidmes>
Filystyn: Ahh, I will give you some snippets of my configuration, they might help you out then. I am using parts of XFCE myself
<mbrock>
joepie91: that's mostly not how I experience it but then when I say static typing I mostly mean Haskell, and there the type system is mostly really helpful. The amount of help I get from it while refactoring is so, so nice.
<mbrock>
joepie91: but I recognize that, for example, "adding" static typing to Nix is not a simple matter, and you might end up making the language too complicated for most people to understand easily
<mbrock>
joepie91: (Haskell's type system is really complicated, and people mostly want more and more features from it)
<ottidmes>
lambdael: I think the NixOS package is missing: moveToOutput "bin/toe" "$out", I have apparently do have toe in Arch Linux and the link you gave mentions it is part of ncurses, and googling it with ncurses gives me enough results, so it seems a packaging issue
<mbrock>
joepie91: btw, the more expressive your type system, the less specific the kinds of errors it can catch. Servant for Haskell is a good example, checking statically that your web routes deliver the right content types, and stuff
<cwre>
I'm getting a shared library not found error with KDE in certain settings panes...
<cwre>
What do I need to do, should do to verify I'm not crazy?
<lambdael>
ottidmes: what can i do?
<ottidmes>
joepie91: I rather have the compiler yell at me then what I call, having to doubt most of my program (not that it happens often, but when that situation occurs, I dislike (putting it kindly) dynamic typing or at least the programming language in question with a passion)
<simpson>
So, the thing about static typing is that any particular static type system always seems to have its warts. Some of these warts are pattern-based and seem to recur often.
<simpson>
So it's not really clear exactly how much expressivity is lost. Somewhere between "all of it" and "a lot of useful things" are prohibited.
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<ottidmes>
lambdael: I am testing it for you, but I seem to have a problem with my configuration (it is installing way more then it should and it fails eventually, unrelated to your problem though)
<ottidmes>
lambdael: I just added: moveToOutput "bin/toe" "$out", to the default.nix of ncurses of my local nixpkgs checkout, if you have a local checkout, you might try it yourself
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<lambdael>
ottidmes: thx, i gonna try it
<ottidmes>
lambdael: That is probably for the best, it seems I have somehow triggered a complete rebuild of my system
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<Filystyn>
otti thx man
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<ottidmes>
Filystyn: So it worked for you?
<Filystyn>
had tio find other work around since no time i will check tomoroow
<Filystyn>
this problem happened few tiem salready so it;'s crucial anyway
<Filystyn>
cu!
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<ottidmes>
Yikes, my cores are reporting close to 100 degrees celcius... Ehm, I hope that the sensors are wrongly reported...
<ottidmes>
Would it not otherwise kill my machine?
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<tokudan>
cpu cores at that temperature is ok. cpu ambient temperature at 100 °C is bad
<dash>
ottidmes: 100C is pretty high. IIRC some systems will throttle things to stay below that
<dash>
I had this problem for a year or so before I put in a better cpu cooler
<ottidmes>
I stopped compiling, not is back to 76
<dash>
yeah, you need a better cooler
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<ottidmes>
I just need a new desktop, GPU fan is partly broken (making noise) and I already replaced the cooling paste of the CPU a few months back
<dash>
at idle your cpu should not be above 40C probably
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<deltasquared>
new desktop entirely? eesh, I personally wouldn't be buying right now
<ottidmes>
deltasquared: Yeah entirely, why not?
<dash>
deltasquared: waiting for Talos II? :)
<deltasquared>
dash: no such luck with me, Pentium IV in my desktop right noww
<deltasquared>
the market kinda sucks for getting onto the ladder as it were right now.
<ottidmes>
deltasquared: Hmm, that sucks, I did read about certain CPU and GPU being sold out due to high demand of crypto farms and such
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<deltasquared>
I'll probably get skylake in a few months time so it's settled. GPU may be similarly lagging behind the latest, but I'm not necessarily buying for the most power per $$$
<deltasquared>
even then it'll be a considerable improvement over a ten-year-old motherboard and CPU.
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<ottidmes>
deltasquared: mine is almost 8 years old, so I really do not like to invest in it anymore, but it sits at idle 59C I will try to better its air flow later this evening
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<deltasquared>
I'm just intending to buy an up-to-date system in one go so that while it may not be the fastest performance wise, it'll last for a fair bit into the future
<deltasquared>
e.g. right now I'm stuck on PCIe 1.0
<deltasquared>
I would be getting PCIe 3.0 and DDR4 RAM, which shouldn't be too antiquated for some time to come
<ottidmes>
How do you cope? I mean, is the software you are using so undemanding? My first personal desktop had a pentium IV, I cannot imagine running the latest browser with plenty of tabs open on it
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<dash>
ottidmes: use a phone or tablet for web :>
<deltasquared>
ottidmes: are you kidding? it handles firefox just fine! it's the sites that are completely overbloated that are the problem, which I have fixes for.
<deltasquared>
it sounds great too, though sometimes the sound is inconvienient.
<ottidmes>
deltasquared: My desktop right now is zooming, bzzzzzzzzz... half of the time due to a half working GPU fan... But not something playing some Metal cannot fix ;)
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<ottidmes>
lambdael: I can confirm, adding that line adds toe to ncurses
<ottidmes>
lambdael: Can you make a pull request yourself, or do I have to do it?
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<dshin>
how do I modify the outputsToInstall attribute of packages? I've been stuck on this for a while
<joepie91>
ottidmes: right, my point is that there are ways to not-have-to-doubt-your-program beyond static typing :) it isn't 'either static typing or uncertainty'
<joepie91>
ottidmes: but those other approaches are things to learn about in and of themselves, so if you write code in a dynamically typed language like you would [naively] do in a statically typed language, you're going to have issues
<dshin>
basically I'm trying to have those packages installed and symlinked to a local directory. but boost is not installing the headers because outputsToInstall is set to ["out"]. I want to change it to ["out" "dev"]
<cwre>
I'm getting a shared library not found error with KDE in certain settings panes... What do?
<joepie91>
ottidmes: (context: a discussion about typescript, which is basically "javascript with static typing glued onto it")
<ottidmes>
cwre: pinpoint what is missing the shared library, use ldd to list its runtime dependencies, open the relevant pkg on nixpkgs and see what dependency should supply this
<cwre>
ottidmes: I don't know how to pinpoint the shared library.
<cwre>
It's just saying "shared library"
<ottidmes>
cwre: sudo journalctl -e gives you more maybe?
<cwre>
I'll look. Installing shit on my bootcamp partition currently.
<NixOS_GitHub>
[nixpkgs] joelthompson opened pull request #27552: exhibitor: Fix bugs in previous package (master...exhibitor) https://git.io/v7T6D
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<ottidmes>
joepie91: I know about TypeScript, PureScript and the lot. And I indeed now use TypeScript when I have to use JavaScript. I do not use PureScript I tend to need to do a lot of interop, and then the paradigm mismatch becomes annoying and you are more busy writing glue code between the two worlds then writing the actual code
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<joepie91>
my opinion of typescript is 'not very good', to say the least :)
<joepie91>
as far as I can tell, it's glueing on static typing for the sake of static typing
<joepie91>
technical tradeoffs make no sense
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<joepie91>
(and I'd recommend that anybody considering TypeScript would instead spend some time to get acquainted with JS *properly*, or if different tradeoffs are required, to consider something like Flow instead)
<deltasquared>
it wouldn't hurt to have a separate validation pass for dynamic languages if done right.
<deltasquared>
I can't speak for typescript though
<deltasquared>
!g pluggable type systems paper
<deltasquared>
...
<deltasquared>
fuck no bot wrong channel
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<ottidmes>
joepie91: I agree with most of what you are saying in that gist, but generally, I would maybe even go so far as, inherently I consider static typing to be superior. But that does not make static typing the best choice over dynamic typing in all situations. I personally like the approach of having static typing but trying to win back most of the benefits of dynamic typing
<joepie91>
but yeah, honestly, my experience has been that precisely 0 of the people I've spoken to who use typescript have a comprehensive understanding of JS as a language, and how to make the most of it in terms of producing reliable code effectively
<joepie91>
and I always get the distinct impression of TypeScript being used as a 'crutch' to regain static typing
<joepie91>
due to familiarity (or rather, unfamiliarity with how to approach development in dynamically typed languages)
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<ottidmes>
joepie91: I think I have quite an understanding of JavaScript, but still prefer TypeScript, but maybe we should not discuss this further at length here...
<joepie91>
ottidmes: when my RSI is less bad perhaps we should discuss it more :)
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<joepie91>
(and I could then save you some time by giving you some pointers on the whole 'writing reliable code in JS' thing)
<deltasquared>
joepie91: read that paper I linked, 'tis intradesting. I think it discusses the fact that certain things about the program can't be encoded in types but have to be checked in other ways anyway
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<joepie91>
deltasquared: will add to reading list, thanks
<deltasquared>
there's no reason you couldn't e.g. add a semantic check pass to a given set of javascript. bloody hard granted, but not impossible
<joepie91>
my mind is currently in a different gear (learning Rust) so it won't be tonight
<joepie91>
:p
<ottidmes>
joepie91: Regarding RSI, I feel for you, I've had it years ago, but managed to heal from it, but there many types of RSI
<deltasquared>
rust aurgh
<tilpner>
For some reason my nixos-config is evaluating my user's ~/.config/nixpkgs/config.nix. How do I debug why this happens?
* joepie91
is finding the documentation on lifetimes to be rather weak
<deltasquared>
joepie91: there have been a couple of people asking about a formal definition of lifetimes for mathematical rigour. they couldn't do it :P
<ottidmes>
deltasquared: Thanks for the link. I am a firm believer of going at it from the other side, static -> dynamic instead of dynamic -> static, but I try to keep an open mind
<deltasquared>
it's not like rust invented the concept first though, I'm informed Ada has had "region analysis" of where pointers started and ending for a while now
<simpson>
deltasquared: Escape analysis is hard. Escape analysis when weird temporal things are happening is an active field of research.
<dash>
deltasquared: graydon didn't want anything in rust that was less than 10 years old
<dash>
anyway, another major predecessor to rust was Cyclone
<joepie91>
deltasquared: I'm less concerned about that, and more about the lack of an intuitive explanation; the lifetime documentation feels like it's written for people who already understand lifetimes
<joepie91>
which... is not terribly useful :)
<deltasquared>
joepie91: there's a a google tech talks video about rust which seemed to get it across quite well
<simpson>
deltasquared: Languages like Ada and Virgil do this by adding a "region" concept to the language with syntax, but I think that Rust dreamed of being a little more flexible so that it could be used to implement stuff that can GC or codegen.
<deltasquared>
want me to go find it?
<joepie91>
deltasquared: would be appreciated
<joepie91>
not a fan of videos generally, but since the written material is a bit lacking, who knows
<joepie91>
might help
<simpson>
Ada is truly amazing; it proves that the C++ idea of "take good ideas and bolt them on" can work, somehow.
<deltasquared>
oh wait, *mozilla sorry
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<simpson>
OTOH I would not actually want to write Ada. I guess if I worked for NASA, maybe?
<deltasquared>
... damnit
<dash>
simpson: still not 100% convinced ada was not started as a cold war psyop
<joepie91>
deltasquared: I can see why you thought of Google :P
<ottidmes>
cwre: That is too bad, but when do you get the error? I is it a certain application, that would be really useful to know
<joepie91>
(the giant logo, the uploader username, ...)
<joepie91>
deltasquared: anyway, thanks, will have a watch if this random blogpost doesn't manage to explain it properly either
<cwre>
ottidmes: I get it when I navigate to certain settings panes.
<cwre>
Like settings>workspace themes>{look and feel, desktop theme, splash screen}
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<ottidmes>
joepie91: You likely now all this stuff already, or is not applicable in your case, but what helped my RSI was to buy a better desk chair, bought a bigger mouse that filted most of my hand, stopped using the mouse after 23:00 (this was really important in my case) and stop playing games that require way to much mouse interaction
<joepie91>
ottidmes: ironically, the mouse isn't the problem anymore...
<joepie91>
ottidmes: I now use a Delux M618 as my mouse (a vertical mouse), that made the RSI in my right wrist pretty much disappear entirely
<joepie91>
the issue now is my left wrist, due to keyboard use apparently :P
<ottidmes>
joepie91: That could still be caused by a wrong sitting position, chair, keyboard, keyboard placing, not having enough breaks, I would really try to experiment, it is basically your body telling you strain certain parts too much, so something has to change
<joepie91>
ottidmes: already using workrave with a pretty tight break schedule, got a very sensitive keyboard, bought a better desk chair a while ago, etc.
<joepie91>
ottidmes: and cancelled work today due to RSI :P so mostly just reading now
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<cwre>
ottidmes: that looks like it!
<cwre>
Thanks for being my google.
<joepie91>
ottidmes: unfortunately my hauling of large trash today made it worse
<ottidmes>
joepie91: Ah, figured as much, but I hate myself for not acting quicker in my case, because in the end it was completely preventable
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<joepie91>
also, a good mattress, a desk that's designed specifically for RSI prevention, etc. etc.
<joepie91>
you name it, I've probably done it
<joepie91>
:p
<ottidmes>
joepie91: Ghehe, I was just about to say, what about a new mattress... I will shut up :P
<joepie91>
on which note, praise IKEA
<cwre>
ottidmes: that fixed it, thank you so much!
<joepie91>
pretty much the only place that sells higher-end mattresses / desk chairs that actually last for a good while, are within reasonable (though not cheap) pricing brackets
<ottidmes>
Indeed, half of my furniture is from IKEA and still using the desk I got 17 years ago from IKEA
<joepie91>
I think I paid... about 220 EUR for my mattress? and like 150 EUR for my desk chair
<joepie91>
equivalent mattress would cost >700 EUR elsewhere, equivalent desk chair would easily cost >400 EUR
<ottidmes>
cwre: Great to hear! How about your HDPI issues, are they now solved on KDE? Or was that what you were trying to configure, which crashed?
<cwre>
ottidmes: nope KDE solved the issues. Although I was having issues with firefox which was solved with a GDK_BLAH variable I needed to set.
<cwre>
Now I need to figure out how to change lockscreen background and user Icon.
<joepie91>
ottidmes: I rarely buy furniture fwiw, just physical-health-related things :P pretty much all my other furniture is hand-me-downs, random stuff picked up from the street, etc. (I live on a low budget...)
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<joepie91>
so approximately 100% of my purchased furniture is IKEA furniture
<joepie91>
heh
<ottidmes>
joepie91: My mattress was very expensive, definitely one of the most expensive things I own, but 100% worth it, I mean, considering how many hours you spend on the damn thing, spending well worth if it improves your health
<joepie91>
right
<joepie91>
ottidmes: on which note, it saddens me how many people work on a laptop permanently....
<joepie91>
upwards of 6 hours a day...
<joepie91>
professional developers and all...
<ottidmes>
lol
<joepie91>
with absolutely no awareness of RSI whatsoever
<joepie91>
so, for anybody reading this who uses a laptop permanently and for their job: use a desktop, because using a laptop for extended periods of time is virtually a guarantee of health issues later
<joepie91>
can't have a good posture with them
<joepie91>
(unless you dock them, in which case, well, it's basically a desktop)
<ottidmes>
joepie91: That was my cause of RSI, laptop combined with small laptop mouse, initiated my RSI in my right (mouse) hand and was made horrible when I played hack and slash games (Diablo 2, Titan Quest)
<joepie91>
also, NixOS makes it easier than ever to synchronize your system config between a desktop and a laptop :D
<joepie91>
so really no excuse there
<joepie91>
ah, scheduled break time :P
<dash>
system config is the easy part, it's everything else that's a nuisance
<dash>
joepie91: anyway this is why God created chiropractors
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<xplat|work>
i use a laptop docked with a full-sized keyboard and mouse and 2 extra monitors not counting the laptop screen, so i guess that doesn't count?
<joepie91>
xplat|work: 'laptop screen' is the problem there, most likely
<joepie91>
xplat|work: there are very, very few laptop configurations where the laptop screen is at the correct viewing height
<joepie91>
having it at the wrong viewing height will cause neck and shoulder issues
<cwre>
joepie91: amen to that
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<cwre>
*sigh* having to install zip and unzip separately.
<joepie91>
er, /sw/share? am I getting that right?
<joepie91>
yeah
<cwre>
yeah that's right
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<joepie91>
so if you have eg. $out/share/themes containing something, that something will be symlinked from /run/current-system/sw/share/themes automatically
<cwre>
ooooh
<joepie91>
after build
<cwre>
So I just append to that
<cwre>
And put stuff in my actual /usr/share
<joepie91>
have a look at eg. desktop environment / window manager theme packages to see it in action
<dualinity>
i believe in the philosophy of nix, i really do
<dualinity>
i was considering to install it, but went with arch
<cwre>
How do you feel now?
<dualinity>
tried nixos on a VM but it seemed like a lot of work
<cwre>
dualinity: it is
<cwre>
But isn't all Linux?
<dualinity>
hmmm yea....
<dualinity>
well not really ubuntu
<cwre>
Low hanging fruit
<dualinity>
its just the main issue with arch is that stuff breaks
<dualinity>
and moreso that it is a non repeatable build
<cwre>
I've never really had that experience with arch.
<dualinity>
it is haunting me
<ToxicFrog>
I've been considering moving away from Nix on my laptop just because I want to play games and organize photos
<cwre>
ToxicFrog: just get a desktop or make a small windows partition
<dualinity>
i plan to get the lenovo and just keep win10 on it and dualboot linux next to it
<cwre>
I have 100gb for Windows.
<ToxicFrog>
It's great on the server, and I love having a reproduceable configuration and ZFS support and stuff, but it's a huge headache in some ways
<dualinity>
yea... that's the best setup
<ToxicFrog>
cwre: you misunderstand; I have a windows desktop for windows games
<ToxicFrog>
I want to play games on linux, and organize photos with digikam
<cwre>
ToxicFrog: oh, is gaming on Nix a pain?
<ottidmes>
dualinity: That is my experience with Arch Linux as well, death by a thousand cuts (death = me being fed up with it), I have not had major breakage but little breackage here and there at every update, never having a bugless system for long
<dualinity>
ottidmes: yea exactly !
<ToxicFrog>
cwre: if they're FOSS games and they've been packaged for Nix they're fine. If they're Steam games you are entering a world of pain.
<simpson>
ToxicFrog: I play games on Linux with NixOS.
<simpson>
ToxicFrog: I haven't had Steam problems lately that weren't GPU-related instead of NixOS-related.
<dualinity>
you always have to fix something on arch is how it feels
<cwre>
ToxicFrog: I'm not sure why, though. Wouldn't the games just go to your home dir?
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<NixOS_GitHub>
[nixpkgs] bjornfor pushed 1 new commit to master: https://git.io/v7TQE
<NixOS_GitHub>
nixpkgs/master 75290ad Stefan Siegl: owncloud-client: 2.3.1 -> 2.3.2
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<ToxicFrog>
cwre: most of them assume that things like libz can be found by the dynamic linker, which is not a safe assumption on NixOS
<ToxicFrog>
Nor is the assumption that bash is in /bin for startup scripts and the like
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<ottidmes>
dualinity: With NixOS you exchange it for having to put some more time into your system, but it will reward you with stability, still the ability to be bleeding edge for those packages that require it and reproducability
<ToxicFrog>
simpson: so, I moved from SUSE to Nix on the same hardware, and an awful lot of Steam games that worked fine on SUSE, like Squarecells and Caves of Qud, abruptly stopped working
<celph>
Something I was having trouble with last night: In order to build a package for Nix using dependencies in nixpkgs, do I need to clone nixpkgs?
<cwre>
ToxicFrog: oh, that's a shame.
<dualinity>
ottidmes: yea, the problem is that i've now spent too much time on arch already... and i realized I don't like to be busy with all this... i want a system that works
<joepie91>
I'd say that in current-day NixOS you exchange some upfront effort/time for saving a ton of headaches/time/effort down the road
<cwre>
ToxicFrog: you could tell the devs to make linux scripts that don't follow poor scripting practices?
<simpson>
ToxicFrog: That's unfortunate.
<cwre>
:D
<ToxicFrog>
I assume that this is something going wrong with the wacky chroot tricks that NixOS does to get Steam to run at all, but I definitely do not have the time or the inclination to debug that
<joepie91>
(for flexible values of 'some')
<ToxicFrog>
cwre: hmmm yes attempting to single-handedly reform the gaming industry sounds like a fun and productive use of my time
<cwre>
ToxicFrog: merely kidding, I feel your pain.
<joepie91>
celph: you can use an overlay since 17.03
<ToxicFrog>
And on the photos side, Digikam works fine but kipi-plugins (used, in particular, to export/upload photos) are totally busted on Nix
<dualinity>
btw guys, just wanted to tell you the atmosphere in here is a lot better than in #archlinux ^_^
<cwre>
dualinity: you need to check out #archlinux-offtopic
<dash>
dualinity: this is the value of the nix language
<celph>
joepie91: thanks, I'm struggling a bit with the manual
<ottidmes>
dualinity: I would suggest then to stay on Arch Linux, but maybe just install Nix the package manager to experiment with somewhat? And if you are planning reinstall, I would drop it and install NixOS instead. Because, at least in my case, I remember having to lookup all kinds of configuration stuff all again, because you simply forget that kind of stuff, with Nix you have it explicit, can copy/share/whatnot it
<ottidmes>
easily, so it truly is a big win
<dash>
it's confusing enough to keep the riff-raff out
<joepie91>
celph: you are not the first nor only one to do so :)
<cwre>
dash: my experience is that the long beards are worse than the confused users.
<ToxicFrog>
There's a lot that I like about it and I'm definitely not moving away from it on the server anytime soon, and on the laptop the stuff that works is great, but the stuff that doesn't is just perpetually frustrating.
<dualinity>
ottidmes: great suggestion, I went for full nixos experience, but just nix sounds a good plan on arch!
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<joepie91>
celph: eventually(tm) the documentation will improve but for now it's still a bit meh
<ToxicFrog>
So next time I feel like spending a while tinkering with my laptop, I might just move back to SUSE, or SUSE + nix package manager to install stuff like the backup software
<cwre>
ToxicFrog: its funny because the server(vps) I run is on arch and I've had almost no issues with it.
<celph>
joepie91: Thanks again, I'll have a go at it a bit further tonight
<cwre>
You know I've never used SUSE.
<ToxicFrog>
cwre: and I haven't had any issues with NixOS on my server, but I'm not trying to play Steam games on it, either
<joepie91>
fwiw, running NixOS on desktop here, and I run into issues every now and then, but so far they've always been solvable *somehow*
<joepie91>
then again I don't use Steam
<cwre>
ToxicFrog: psh, why not?? You don't want a home brew Gefore NOW?
<clever>
i have nixos on my desktop, 2 netbooks, 1 laptop, the router, and the NAS
<dualinity>
cwre: not sure what to expect with archlinux-offtopic, but indeed #archlinux itself has a very narrow scope :p
<dualinity>
*not supported*
<dash>
cwre: what does it say about a person if they have stuck with arch for years and years
<dash>
cwre: not much good IMO :)
<cwre>
dualinity: #archlinux-offtopic is just much chiller IMO and you can ask unrelated questions to arch without getting screamed at.
* joepie91
comes from openSUSE and is not planning on moving back
<ottidmes>
I would not think about using Steam on NixOS. I know it kinda works, but I would just use some other distro, or just use Windows (which is what I am doing now for games)
<cwre>
dash: they're masochists, that's for sure.
<clever>
i was mostly gentoo based prior to discovering nixos
<celph>
joepie91: when I was searching around for resources I found some documentation on how/why the wiki was killed and people admiring the Arch wiki a lot (which is something I also really like). Maybe as I figure things out I'll try to help with the documentation
<cwre>
clever: ah, so you're insane?
<cwre>
:D
<clever>
cwre: i have also ran linux from scratch on my router, so yes
<clever>
cwre: having done LFS, i'm able to read and understand the stdenv bootstrap in nixpkgs
<joepie91>
celph: also I'm slowly (very slowly...) working on better tooling and guidelines for documentation, so things should improve; but for now, you should expect to have to do a good amount of research to get things going
<cwre>
I've seen enough of the hotdog making process to know that I don't really want to know much more about it. :)
<clever>
lol
<ottidmes>
ignorance is bliss!
<clever>
cwre: the basics of LFS, is building an entire toolchain (bash, gcc, glibc), that is rooted to /tools/
<cwre>
Until things break!
<clever>
cwre: so it uses /tools/lib and /tools/bin/ and even /tools/lib/ld.so
<celph>
joepie91: yeah, that's where I've been for a while, funny enough I found a different user wiki last night and got a ways with that
<cwre>
clever: no, stop!
<cwre>
Learning!
<cwre>
Bad!
<ToxicFrog>
The aggravating thing is that what I really want isn't nix-on-SUSE but some sort of SUSE-on-NixOS
<joepie91>
celph: oh, and I regularly pillage the Arch wiki and AUR for hints on how to get stuff working in NixOS :P
<clever>
cwre: then you can mount that entire thing into a chroot, and be 100% isolated from the original host toolchain
<ToxicFrog>
Like, I want NixOS's immutable system snapshots and rollbacks and not having to worry about /etc getting all crufty and stuff
<joepie91>
celph: which wiki is that?
<cwre>
In reality, I am interested, I just don't have the time/patience for stuff like that anymore.
<clever>
cwre: and then repeat it all, but against / this time, to make the real install
<ToxicFrog>
But I also want to be able to run things on it that expect an FHS system
<clever>
cwre: nix simplifies it with storepaths, but does the same basic process
<cwre>
clever: so you build the toolchain to build the toolchain?
<celph>
joepie91: it's technically not a wiki, and most of its useful resources just link to some blog posts
<clever>
cwre: and nix's closures can basicaly do the same thing, just write the right expression s and it does it for you
<joepie91>
this explains the alnguage
<joepie91>
language*
<ottidmes>
What do people do to install their servers (e.g. a VPS) without setting up the filesystem manually and such?
<joepie91>
in a way that Actually Makes Sense
<celph>
joepie91: yes I've got that open
<ottidmes>
I could create a custom ISO, but is that what is generally done?
<joepie91>
ottidmes: with NixOS you mean?
<cwre>
ottidmes: what do you mean?
<ottidmes>
joepie91: Yeah
<celph>
this weekend is "study Nix weekend"
<cwre>
celph: amen to that brother!
<cwre>
or sister
<celph>
and possibly also "learn rust weekend" and "reimplement a good algorithm that only has this one shitty fortran implementation weekend"
<joepie91>
ottidmes: there's a few approaches. some providers offer NixOS installation ISOs or images, in other cases you need to eg. `nixos-infect` a Debian system to get NixOS running. besides that, NixOps is a tool that can actually do the configuration on any existing NixOS host
<joepie91>
etc
<celph>
cwre: sister :p
* cwre
reads fortran
* cwre
shudders
<joepie91>
ottidmes: I currently have a collection of 1 (one) servers running, at Afterburst, and they added a NixOS image for me on request, and I use NixOps to manage it
<clever>
ottidmes: i have also written a kexec based tool that works similiarly to nixos-infect
<cwre>
celph: huzzah, I had a 50% chance of being right!
<joepie91>
(can strongly recommend Afterburst if it's within budget, btw)
<cwre>
Unless you take into account statistics regarding linux users, nix in particular, and then irc users that are also nix users.
<ottidmes>
joepie91: NixOps seems to be more cloud scale, like having many amazon instances and being able to easily scale those (not my use). I can mount a custom ISO on my VPS
<joepie91>
celph: you seem to be on a similar learning path to me :p
<joepie91>
ottidmes: nah, works fine for one system too
<clever>
ottidmes: i have considered using nixops just to manage my laptops
<ottidmes>
joepie91 and clever: Alright, thanks, I will give NixOPS another look!
<joepie91>
ottidmes: start in networks/ and systems/ and follow the imports from there :)
<celph>
cwre: it's fortran 95, less bad, but they fucking inlined everything and someone who worked on this decided "rather than refactor this for multiprocessing, lemme just write a script that does a find-and-replace on it to insert a slightly different hard-coded filepath which then re-compiles the program n times where n is the number of processes, one for each chunk of the inputs"
<clever>
ottidmes: if you set the targetEnv = "none"; in nixops, it will just ssh into an existing nixos machine and manage it
<celph>
fucking psychologists
<clever>
ottidmes: and its up to you to deal with the hardware layer (or creation of VM's within control panels)
<joepie91>
clever: dont even have to set it explicitly
<cwre>
Being a linux user, I feel really out of place because I'm like one foot in CS and hands and other foot in sysadmin.
<ottidmes>
clever: Yeah, so that bit, is there a way to automate it other than an image if you can create them, or some setup script, I would love to just be able to mount an ISO containing everything ready, but maybe that means doing a custom ISO with NixOPS and a setup script for the hardware if there is no way around
<joepie91>
ottidmes: you *can* produce a custom ISO, but most providers won't let you upload it
<clever>
ottidmes: this is a custom nixos module, that pre-installs a script called justdoit
<celph>
cwre: it's not "bad" so much as it shows its age, newer programming constructs are bootstrapped onto 40 year old ideas about how code should be written, as a result it can be messy and fragile, and newer constructs can be syntactically unintuitive.
<clever>
ottidmes: when ran, that will format /dev/sda, and install nixos
<cwre>
joepie91: take this iso I made that definitely doesn't contain a kubernetes 0day exploit on it, please!
<joepie91>
cwre: don't think you need to put your own vulns in it
<joepie91>
:)
<clever>
ottidmes: so you could create an ISO that has this module included, boot the ISO, ssh in, and run justdoit, and your done
<cwre>
celph: definitely doesn't sound fun though
<ottidmes>
clever: Nice, I will definitely steal some ideas from that!
<joepie91>
I have been, uh, less than impressed with the security hygiene in the containerize-all-the-things community
<cwre>
joepie91: where's that salt meme when you need it?
<cwre>
joepie91: it's not good, that's for sure.
<joepie91>
by which I mean "everything is pwnable"
<dash>
joepie91: for now
<ottidmes>
clever: Yeah, I chose my VPS provider in part on its support to mount custom ISOs, so yay, that seems a nice approach :)
<clever>
ottidmes: the directory above that file, is a kexec trick i made, that can hijack any existing linux machine
<clever>
ottidmes: so you dont even need support for custom ISO's
<cwre>
ottidmes: but how much more expensive?
<joepie91>
ottidmes: which provider?
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<ottidmes>
cwre: It was also the cheapest provider I could find given the amount of memory
* joepie91
bets OVH
<cwre>
ottidmes: gimee the DEETS yo
* cwre
uses Pacmanvps
<ottidmes>
big disclaimer: I have yet to install NixOS on it, so maybe the hardware is not as good as I like, I have not tested it thorougly yet, not yet have had the time
<cwre>
ottidmes: I bet you don't have to worry about HIDPI though :)
<ottidmes>
I have a VPS at: https://budgetnode.com/ but used some discount link which gave me like 1GB more memory for the same price
<joepie91>
ahh, budgetnode.
<joepie91>
be very careful :)
<ottidmes>
experience with them?
<cwre>
with a name like that I was expect some Web 1.0 bullshit.
<celph>
cwre: I'd much rather be working in Rust, C++, or Go tbh. The only performance reason to implement anything this low is stripped away by the fact that everything takes too long to put in working order, breaks too easily, and winds up suboptimal because unsafe languages promote messy practices when strict guidelines aren't adhered to.
<cwre>
s/expect/expecting
<joepie91>
ottidmes: they botched a provider acquisition and generally behaved rather shadily throughout the process
<dualinity>
yea i was wondering actually how to easily install a nice nixos...... you can't really "copy paste" on a empty system ;P
<joepie91>
and they have (or at least had) some dubious ToS that led me to not sign up with them
<dualinity>
also wifi won't work out of the box
<celph>
cwre: C would actually be worse for this job though, I think...
<cwre>
celph: I don't program much at all.
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<cwre>
celph: surprising, haha.
<joepie91>
ottidmes: their service is fine afaik, it's just that I don't trust them as a company
<ottidmes>
joepie91: Hmm, good to know, my previous one was Verelox... ex-admin broke the place, but they should be up and running again
<joepie91>
ottidmes: I suspect you might be trying to target too low a price bracket
<celph>
cwre: F95 implements some good tools abstract vector manipulation - useful in psych where you're doing statistics, neural nets, etc.
<ottidmes>
joepie91: I am :P but none of them failed due to the hardware quality
<joepie91>
ottidmes: there's a certain price point below which you end up with summerhosts that literally only operate for a summer holiday, hosts with poor company operations, dubious stability, etc.
<joepie91>
ottidmes: generally "whatever ramnode charges" is a reasonable reference for what's a sustainable price
<celph>
cwre: C hasn't changed since 99, as it shouldn't. It's a simple abstraction from a very standard model of computer. That's a very good thing to be, but not for all purposes.
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<joepie91>
ottidmes: anyway, all my more important stuff is hosted with slightly-more-expensive-than-cheap providers, just because it means they're going to be around for a while and are financially stable
<dash>
celph: it was a good thing in 1970 :)
<joepie91>
afterburst, ramhost, ramnode, etc.
<ottidmes>
joepie91: I believe you, I mean, some of the prices could never sustain a company realisticly, but since it is for a personal server, I am fine with
<celph>
cwre: *barely changed
<celph>
dash: I'm sure it was but I'm a dirty millenial who wasn'
<celph>
wasn't around to see it
* cwre
high fives celph
<joepie91>
ottidmes: ramnode is not within your budget? :)
<joepie91>
that's probably the cheapest of the sustainable lot
* cwre
is 22, so he's not sure if he counts as a millenial
<dash>
celph: same here
<joepie91>
ottidmes: oh, warning ahead; NixOS will currently *not* run on OpenVZ
<dash>
celph: C has been a bad idea for several years but we're just now getting to the point that we have credible alternative for all of its use cases
<joepie91>
it is theoretically possible to make it work
<joepie91>
but nobody has done it yet
<joepie91>
:p
<joepie91>
at least not in a way that requires no cooperation from the provider and that works cross-provider
<cwre>
joepie91: what's that?
<joepie91>
cwre: OpenVZ, you mean?
<ottidmes>
joepie91: Considering I am living on my savings with no income (will change soon), I try to get the best lowend hosting
<cwre>
OHH
<cwre>
sorry
<cwre>
joepie91: mishighlight
<joepie91>
ah
<joepie91>
lol
<cwre>
dash: what's the alternative?
<dash>
cwre: depends on what you're doing
<joepie91>
ottidmes: right. just don't forget the time cost :)
<cwre>
joepie91: #ircproblems
<joepie91>
cwre: another one: trying to tabcomplete difficult-to-spell words
<celph>
dash: Eh, I don't think C will be a bad idea for a while, it just has better alternatives for most use-cases
<ottidmes>
joepie91: True, that is why I no longer want to host at a place that does not support custom ISOs
<joepie91>
years of IRC use and I still try to do that
<cwre>
I only use python and bash for anything ever
* joepie91
has a small fleet of cheapo VPSes
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<joepie91>
lots of OpenVZ though
<cwre>
joepie91: we like to call that a "botnet"
<joepie91>
so I really need to figure out NixOS-on-OpenVZ
<joepie91>
otherwise consolidate stuff
<dash>
celph: C is an acceptable choice for programs that don't have to be correct
<joepie91>
lol
<clever>
joepie91: my irc client is good at completing with just 2 letters most of the time
<joepie91>
cwre: nah, they're VPSes I own :p
<cwre>
joepie91: "compliant botnet"
<ottidmes>
joepie91: I also have a VPS at TransIP, but even though they fall into the better bracket, they do not support custom ISO mounting
<celph>
dash: ouch >.>
<joepie91>
I have some that I pay $1.50/month for
<clever>
joepie91: and i have considered setting loose ~30 bots in this channel named after nix functions, just so i can tab-complete things like callPackage in here :P
<joepie91>
heh
<joepie91>
clever: I feel like a client plugin is easier at that point...
<cwre>
joepie91: lol.... What is that a stick of ram that they plug into an outlet for you?
<joepie91>
hahaha
<dash>
celph: the evidence for the existence of people that can write correct programs in C is scant
<clever>
joepie91: but then nobody else benefits! lol
<joepie91>
cwre: nah, usually tiny OpenVZ boxes
<joepie91>
cwre: HostForce is probably the most outrageous one, sec
<rardiol1>
Could someone please look at this pr please? https://github.com/NixOS/nixpkgs/pull/16683 . It's old and looks like it got lost in the backlog, but I just updated and fixed the problem and wanted it merged before I have to update it again...
<celph>
dash: C is an acceptable choice for programs that have extremely strict resource requirements, most good C is on embedded stuff rn
<joepie91>
cwre: oh, it's gotten a little more expensive, cheapest plan went up from $2/month to $3/month: https://clients.hostforce.com/index.php?/cart/vps/
<joepie91>
oh, they have a KVM VPS for $2.50/month
<joepie91>
:p
<celph>
dash: I would agree that most people are terrible at C and it's unsuited for projects of any typical size
<cwre>
haha..
<joepie91>
no word on quality yet though
<tilpner>
Is there no way to make nix-build ignore ~/.config/nixpkgs? :/
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<cwre>
celph: lets migrate linux to node
<clever>
tilpner: nix-build --arg config '{}'
<ottidmes>
celph: Do you have suggestions for stress testing a C program. I have made my first C project ever (besides my Pebble watchface), and learned about valgrind fast enough after one too many segfault, but what tools could you suggest to remove as many bugs as possible
<joepie91>
cwre: but yeah, I have some stupidly cheap boxes that I've picked up during temporary promos throughout the years
<joepie91>
pretty sure some of them are at cost
<ottidmes>
clever: I said stress testing, but I think fuzzy testing is more applicable for correctness
<cwre>
joepie91: VPS hoarding, up next on hoarders.
<joepie91>
also, you'd be surprised how helpful it is to know your providers personally... means issues can be resolved via IRC PM 90% of the time
<clever>
ottidmes: triforce works by forking the entire bloody qemu process, to create clones of the vm
<clever>
ottidmes: and then each clone of the vm gets different input data
<clever>
ottidmes: so you can boot the vm once, then test a single function on 1000's of different bits of data
<celph_>
Connection dropped whoops
* joepie91
wants to see more Rust on embedded stuff
<tilpner>
clever - Thank you! What component accepts this argument? (It's oddly global)
<ottidmes>
clever: Nice project, and the fact that they are using AFL, seems they believe in its capability
<clever>
tilpner: which argument?
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<tilpner>
clever - config. My nix file takes "{ ... }:", so I wonder where "config" is passed to
<celph_>
ottidmes: I'm probably not the best person to ask, I know a bit about engineering because I know engineers, but I'm a scientist. QA isn't my wheelhouse.
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<dash>
clever: zowie
<clever>
tilpner: can you link a gist with the file?
<celph_>
most of what I do needs to compile low and run quick, but once it works it's unlikely to need to be run more than a couple times.
<tilpner>
clever - It's my equivalent to configuration.nix [ https://gist.github.com/tilpner/317d4a8a9189d9a1ae0137a4f7e67ad7 ], and evaluating the system argument somehow took my users ~/.config/nixpkgs/config.nix into account (which enabled Firefox flash, which currently doesn't build)
<ottidmes>
celph_: Ah ok, thanks anyway
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<clever>
tilpner: ah, try putting a syntax error into your config.nix and then run it with --show-trace
<clever>
tilpner: that should give a backtrace to where it came in from
* tilpner
tries that
<ottidmes>
I have been programming of years, but only started programming in C a few weeks ago, because I firmly dislike such unsafe languages, but I have toned down somewhat, and now am OK with smallish C projects, still don't like big C projects and C++ though
<clever>
tilpner: also, useSandbox is a nix option, not a nixpkgs option, so it does nothing on lin e13
<celph_>
ottidmes: No worries, sorry I can't give you more than just basic recommendations
<dash>
C is probably OK if you never have to process any user input
<celph_>
ottidmes: that's fair, big C projects are mostly a terrible idea, and C++ Was A Mistake
<ottidmes>
I am using it for a X tool, so I am using XCB/X11, there are wrappers, but all documentation obviously is about C, so it just makes way more sense to stick to C, also it small enough
<celph_>
dash: I'd raise C is probably okay, if you only have to operate on a well-defined set of inputs
<tilpner>
clever - That points to pkgs/top-level/default.nix at "stages = ...", which inherits lib, localSystem, config and others. Could it be localSystem that causes the evaluation?
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<clever>
tilpner: can you add the entire trace as another file in the previous gist?
<tilpner>
(And I'll remove the useSandbox, thanks for noticing)
<dash>
celph_: Sure. which pretty much rules out reading from file descriptors ;-)
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<NixOS_GitHub>
[nixpkgs] bjornfor pushed 1 new commit to master: https://git.io/v7TNU
<clever>
tilpner: if you import the default.nix from this "overlay", it wont actualy be used as an overlay
<tilpner>
Haha, yes, I just noticed it. I was testing Infinisils snippet, and forgot to remove it :D
<clever>
tilpner: internally, it will re-import its own chosen nixpkgs version, and not force the config
<clever>
and then apply the overlay to that nixpkgs
<celph_>
dash: I would argue you can be a little looser. Parsing is out of the question. You have a set of valid inputs, you read n characters, check if they match a valid input, otherwise do a clean exit.
<ottidmes>
celph_: Whoops, I happen to have 2 parsers and I read 1 to 2 files...
<tilpner>
This was bad, I should not have left their file in my config. Thanks for helping once again, clever! :)
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<clever>
tilpner: yep
<celph_>
ottidmes
<celph_>
whops that was supposed to be a backspace
<celph_>
ottidmes: Honestly then if you can switch to a language that has memory safety (Rust) it's probably a good idea, there's a fair chance your problem is happening because of insufficient checking. C is also fine if you don't care about having loads of undefined behaviour
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<ottidmes>
tilpner: What did you just setup, overlay stable and unstable with nixpkgs-mozilla? I have yet to use overlays, but would love to have complete working example
<ottidmes>
celph_: I don't really have a problem, but I am unsure whether the might still be problems lurking, hence my question about a fuzzy tester, but you are right. Rust would be better, maybe I will do a rewrite someday. I will probably first finish the C version to completion
<celph_>
ottidmes: oh sorry I thought you mentioned segfaults at some point
<yegortimoshenko>
can i make my own derivation that is based on another derivation, the same build instructions but different default options?
<ottidmes>
celph_: I did, that is how I came to know about valgrind at the time, but as far as I know valgrind is not a fuzzy tester
<celph_>
ottidmes: other good way to find undefined behaviour: give your program to users, have it log all sets of inputs in the background
<tilpner>
ottidmes - Infinisil was trying to get nixpkgs-mozilla working, and I tried to help them, so I put their snippet into my module imports directory, but forgot to remove it afterwards. stable and unstable are not overlays, but two different versions of nixpkgs so I can choose what branch to have my system on and pick packages from either. I define my environments in my own overlay instead of packageOverrides,
<tilpner>
and I pass that overlay to stable/unstable
<ottidmes>
celph_: Yikes, that sounds scary, I would rather just have clear link to my github page then, and have them submit issues themselves
<ottidmes>
celph_: But true, the more people are using it, the more changes edge cases will be found
<celph_>
ottidmes: the problem with that is some users don't know what they did to cause an issue. there was something I read at some point about how it's a good idea to have a general error catcher thing that catches a crash and logs the program state at the time of the crash. I forget ideas about how to implement such a thing.
<ottidmes>
tilpner: Ah that explains. I have the same setup (choosing between stable and unstable), but have yet to replace packageOverrides with an overlay
<celph_>
see now we're getting to the part where it starts to show that I'm not-an-engineer
<ottidmes>
celph_: I once did an internship at a company and worked on software that did just that for the software suite they were selling there customers
<ottidmes>
celph_: So no, you could still have fooled me ;)
<joepie91>
time for sleep
<joepie91>
night, all!
<ottidmes>
good night!
<celph_>
ottidmes: it's a good idea. although I firmly believe that sharing crash reports should be optional, and it takes effort to design things in such a way that you not only know the program state, but how the program arrived at that state.
<joepie91>
(also, I think I understand Rust lifetimes now)
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<celph_>
ottidmes: or: program statelessly
<ottidmes>
celph_: Yeah, that was the point of the crash analysis software, it was capable of generating all kind of useful graphs that made it easy to pinpoint were things were going wrong in the software, it also highlighted the most important issues that way, so the dev's could focus on fixing those first, so quite useful
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<celph_>
ottidmes: wonder if there are any tools like that for FOSS
<celph_>
ottidmes: just a drop-in "import state-tracker"
<tilpner>
jtojnar - Try enabling unfree in your ~/.config/nixpkgs/config.nix
<celph_>
all it does is catch segfaults and dump the state before exit
<celph_>
maybe also provide some tracing
<celph_>
I'm sure it's out there
<ottidmes>
celph_: Probably a variant of it, but to be on the level of what that company was using it probably has to be specialized too much
<bachp>
Does somebody have experience with mass deploying nixos servers to bare metal. For example a blade system with 16 servers?
<celph_>
anyway I've put off work too much
<tilpner>
ottidmes - There's no rush to replace your packageOverrides, but I feel like overlays scale better because multiple overlays combine nicely into a new nixpkgs. I e.g. have an overlay that automatically provides pkgs/foo.nix as pkgs.foo without listing them anywhere, and another overlay that overrides a few packages with custom sources and every overlay can stay in its own file (so everything feels clean)
<clever>
celph_: i recently did systemd.coredump.enable = true; and have found it handy in catching things
<clever>
celph_: though it still relies on ulimit being set as normal
<jtojnar>
tilpner: that seems to work, thanks, I do not understand why putting it to configuration.nix as suggested by the error message for nixos-rebuild does not work
<ottidmes>
tilpner: Yeah it definitely seems a objectively better way of doing things, but I will probably only start looking seriously into them when packageOverrides is not powerful enough (or becomes to ugly)
<celph_>
clever: useful (although I feel like I need to dislike it because systemd) - but for ottidmes there was the thought that there might be a dumper that would do the job on.. was it a Pebble? Can a pebble run Linux?
<clever>
celph_: which pebble?
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<celph_>
clever: I don't know, although given we were talking about C on embedded systems, I'm guessing it's one of the ones that can't.
<ottidmes>
celph_: I mentioned my Pebble because that was the first time I had to use C
<celph_>
Pebble has full-blown smartwatches and also microcontroller based stuff right?
<celph_>
Oh
<ottidmes>
Pebble is no more :(
<clever>
if the cpu has an MMU, they you should be able to set a pagefault handler that catches access to unmapped memory
<celph_>
I know nothing of these watch contraptions. What is watch.
<clever>
but thats typically handled by the existing kernel
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<ottidmes>
I do not dare to tinker with its firmware, considering Pebble went bankrupt, I want to keep it in working order as long as possible
<clever>
ottidmes: that will depend heavily on how reliable the unbricking method is
<ottidmes>
Alright, in addition, it is not really my thing to tinker with the hardware, I am more of software person, hence my preference for higher level programming languages in general
<celph_>
ottidmes: Learn To Love Your Electronics On Every Level (TM)
<srhb>
cwre: Backlight and everything? Nice!
<clever>
ottidmes: at a glance, i dont think the cpu supports pagefault detection
<ottidmes>
The more I get to know about OSes and hardware, the more I get to think, how the hell do they manage to work this reliable
<ottidmes>
clever: It is more, there are so many things that could go wrong at all the different levels, so it amazes me how reliable hardware generally is
<clever>
yeah
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<Fare>
What does this message from nixos-rebuild mean? don't know how to build these paths: /nix/store/7q220zq7319h6ysg1azv8qf94xsz9vs1-kross-5.34.0-bin /nix/store/7y7pzwafawx6zxsqli5y781ypa4ay4gc-kross-5.34.0
<Fare>
and then nix-daemon eating 100% of CPU
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<Fare>
meanwhile download-from-binary-cache.pl (yikes, perl) eats 5% of CPU
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<Fare>
great, now it wants to recompile the android sdk or so :-/
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<srhb>
Fare: Please tell us more about what you're trying to do and what system you're on
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* Fare
is trying to understand whether it's a good idea to work from nixpkgs master. Probably not.
<Fare>
looks like the jdk was updated lately, but public hydras haven't caught up with it, so everything java is getting re-built.
<celph_>
Out of curiosity, what does the crowd here think of Redox?
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<celph_>
RedoxOS but also the kernel. I like the concept, don't know much about how the actual architecture works besides it being a microkernel arch
<tilpner>
Fare - You really want to stay on a channel, they have binary caches. Look up their current status on howoldis.herokuapp.com
<qknight>
does the options system have support for passing functions?
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<celph_>
since we were singing Rust's praises just a bit earlier
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<celph_>
Fare: whoops meant to direct the above link to you
<tilpner>
celph_ - I'm sceptical about how competitive they can get. I like the safety promise, but "We still have a relatively slow kernel since not much time has been spent on optimizing it" may stay a problem for adoption
<Fare>
celph_, so, is nixpkgs-unstable what I should be following?
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<tilpner>
Fare - I'm on nixos-unstable and nixos-17.03
<tilpner>
(and it works well)
<celph_>
tilpner: ah, didn't know they hadn't been doing much wrt optimization. As far as I know it's mostly maintained by this one guy as his side thing, and next release is targeting code minimalism.
<tilpner>
(Look at all those Updated ... ago (and their changelogs))
<celph_>
tilpner: sorry, I meant to specify, the kernel is one dude. that I remember, although there may be more enthusiasm since last I checked
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<ison111>
Not an important question, but maybe someone has some advice? Some of the games I've gotten working on NixOS (using things like patchelf) have some typing issues. Keyboard input seems to register just fine for in-game stuff but when typing in a chatbox for example nothing shows up and I have to copy-paste to type. Maybe some library still isn't being loaded?
<Fare>
if I pick nixpkgs-unstable, does that mean all the packages will be built, or only a "common" subset of them?
<Fare>
ison111, maybe you need a proper LD_LIBRARY_PATH to help find some dynlibs?
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<ison111>
Fare: Well the games complain about missing libraries and I've added their paths to LD_LIBRARY_PATH until the game runs. But I'm wondering if I'm still missing some things that just fail silently. Other than typing in input-boxes though everything else seems to work perfectly
<tilpner>
Fare - It's not a good idea to use nixpkgs-unstable as your main channel for NixOS. It might be fine for a Nix installation on another distro
<yegortimoshenko>
Is it possible to isolate a single binary from a package so that other binaries are not seen in $PATH?
<ottidmes>
yegortimoshenko: create your own package that depends on the package you want to isolate from, and copy its bin file to your new package's $out/bin, and then replace your new package with the targeted package in systemPackages
<ottidmes>
yegortimoshenko: But that is just an idea, not sure if it will work
<Fare>
tilpner, what should I be using as my main channel?
<ottidmes>
yegortimoshenko: so in the installPackage of your new package do something like "cp ${pkgs.target-package}/bin/target-bin $out/bin"
<yegortimoshenko>
ottidmes: it sounds solid and should work. thanks! i thought about introducing options to the derivation, but i don't see anything helpful in package's ./configure --help
<Fare>
do you recommend having one channel for root, another channel for $USER ?
<ottidmes>
Fare: I would recommend to use the latest stable if you are running NixOS, like Fare said, if you are only using the Nix package manager, the unstable branch generally is fine
<gchristensen>
nixos-unstable is acceptable for nixos. nixpkgs-unstable is dangerous to use for nixos
<tilpner>
Fare - nixos-17.03 and nixos-unstable are fairly common. You can also mix channels to e.g. run your system on the more stable nixos-17.03 and pick a few packages from a more up-to-date nixos-unstable. As I understand it, nixpkgs-unstable is just nixos-unstable with fewer successful tests (and thus passes sooner)
<gchristensen>
however stable will receive security updates faster
<Fare>
so, say, track nixos-17.03 for nixos-rebuild, and track nixpkgs-unstable for $user's nix-env ?
<yegortimoshenko>
gchristensen: i didn't have much luck with nixos-unstable on AWS two days ago, GRUB required manual input
<gchristensen>
that would work
<gchristensen>
nixos-unstable is unstable :)
<yegortimoshenko>
it works on packet though ;-)
<Fare>
what about security updates?
<Fare>
say when there's a 0-day exploit for systemd...
<yegortimoshenko>
they push the update to stable nixos branch
<gchristensen>
the update will be availale fastest through nixos-17.03, as I noted a few minutes ago
<gchristensen>
it isn't uncommon for nixos-unstable to take 2wks+ to receive critical updates, due to its unstable nature and the stringent testing
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<Fare>
ok
<Fare>
so I really want to track nixos-17.03 for nixos-rebuild as root
<gchristensen>
IMO? yes :)
<Fare>
and if I have some bleeding edge packages, have $USER use nix-env from whichever bleeding edge channel I'm working on.
<gchristensen>
sure
<Fare>
speaking of which... I couldn't convince nix-env to follow a git checkout in my NIX_PATH, contrarily to nixos-rebuild
<Fare>
How am I supposed to tell nix-env to follow some branch on some nixpkgs fork repo?
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<gchristensen>
I dunno, I've never really used nix-env