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<sphalerite>
https://hydra.nixos.org/build/102785558/nixlog/18 is this a known issue? Gitlab tarball contents changing under our noses? Or did someone push a tag more than once? Or is it a new problem?
<sphalerite>
ah, it was actually updated
<clever>
sphalerite: fetchurl or fetchzip?
<sphalerite>
hm talyz isn't here
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<gchristensen>
should probably each be their own list item
<drakonis>
hooooh
<drakonis>
can i announce 19.09 on hn and lobsters and reddit?
<worldofpeace>
disasm++
<{^_^}>
disasm's karma got increased to 11
<gchristensen>
drakonis: maybe wait to see if disasm would like to :)
<drakonis>
aight
<gchristensen>
we might want to change the website to stop pretending you can burn our graphical ISO to a CD :D
<infinisil>
Nice work disasm++ and sphalerite++!
<{^_^}>
disasm's karma got increased to 12, sphalerite's karma got increased to 73
<drakonis>
agreed on that
<drakonis>
live usbs for life
<worldofpeace>
omg totally forgot about #70325
<{^_^}>
https://github.com/NixOS/nixpkgs/pull/70325 (by worldofpeace, 6 days ago, open): NetworkManager, ModemManager: move all symlinks to alias, add alias for modem-manager.service
<worldofpeace>
hmm, our release date is pretty cool 2019/09/09
<worldofpeace>
lol, I don't know what month or day it is 🤣
<gchristensen>
:P
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<drakonis>
gotta update the changelog to match the release date
<ashkitten>
lol, it's too big for a cd?
<delroth>
gchristensen: is https://r13y.com/ getting automatically updated by something? seems like it's currently stuck at 2019-08-09
<gchristensen>
delroth: it is paused right now. the infra I've been running it on doesn't handle it very well anymore, and I haven't yet set it up to run elsewhere
<delroth>
ahh ok, thanks
<gchristensen>
the most ideal next step involves anybody contributing build checking, but I'm not feeling like that is how I'm going to spend my time soon
<qyliss>
but there's no reason we should be patching this in the first place
<qyliss>
It also uses different version numbers from upstream Tor
<qyliss>
afaict
<qyliss>
i might be wrong about that -- tor's build process is complicated
<worldofpeace>
I'd think the most honest thing would be to open your PR and clearly ask them about it. "can we consoladate these patches, why do we have them?". how long how they maintained this?
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<drakonis>
and offer an unpatched version when possible
<drakonis>
for regular behavior
<drakonis>
which is nice for nix users
<drakonis>
rather than nixos
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<worldofpeace>
yeah, downstream patches are just generally not desireable unless we're committed to use them to improve the experience to users
<drakonis>
a situation that comes to mind here is debian's relationship with calibre's upstream
<drakonis>
they have so many patches that calibre's developer doesnt take bug reports from debian anymore
<worldofpeace>
lol really?
<qyliss>
not taking bug reports from debian is generally a good thing to do anyway
<qyliss>
because debian versions are so outdated
<qyliss>
debian users are supposed to report bugs to debian, not to upstream
<worldofpeace>
tbh this is true
<drakonis>
debian also patches packages to make them reproducible
<qyliss>
I really don't think we should be tofu-ing Tor either, but that's an argument for another day
<worldofpeace>
I honestly would be uncomfortable to attract the attention of this particular contributor :D
<drakonis>
debian also patches dependencies lol
<drakonis>
let me find the source
<samueldr>
thinking about it, I think the intent was "firefox, but with all tor browser features" and not "tor browser"
<qyliss>
Yeah
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<qyliss>
worldofpeace: me too but nobody else is going to
<drakonis>
it should be labeled as firefox-tor then
<drakonis>
how to deal with corporate sponsors and lts btw?
<infinisil>
qyliss: Actual question: Why? Isn't playing the police pretty much what admins have to do when people act up?
<drakonis>
do you just build an overlay for core packages?
<qyliss>
infinisil: hell no
<qyliss>
getting people to leave a community is very different to being police
<drakonis>
infinisil, its called the fun police
<adisbladis>
drakonis: I think we come back to the question of support tiers in regards to LTS
<qyliss>
but if you want to have this discussion, I don't think this is the place
<qyliss>
And it will be very heated and emotional
<drakonis>
WHEE WHOO WHEE WHOO, PUT YOUR HANDS IN THE AIR, NO FUN ALLOWED
<drakonis>
definitely the wrong moment for this
<drakonis>
support tiers are just a piece of the puzzle
<infinisil>
qyliss: I just want to know why the police is associated with being a bad in such cases, I haven't really thought about it, I don't need a long discussion, just a short explanation
<drakonis>
infinisil, american police is notoriously terrible
<samueldr>
don't even need to bring a specific geo-location
<infinisil>
Ah that thing
<drakonis>
they're the lowest common denominator for bad police
<samueldr>
"the police" doesn't mean the same for everyone in the world
<samueldr>
drakonis: please don't
<drakonis>
okay fine
<drakonis>
media ingrained this view too
<qyliss>
i'm gonna /part for a bit. i regret brining up the word "police"
<samueldr>
and not only from personal judgement, but from actions; "the police" can't have an equal definition everywhere
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<drakonis>
aight welp
<drakonis>
i'll drop this
<drakonis>
this is no bueno
<drakonis>
some folks have joins/leaves disabled
<infinisil>
In switzerland (and other countries too probably) the police aren't associated with anything bad anyways, but I guess many people think of america for the word police
<drakonis>
adisbladis, there would need to be some kind of infrastructure for achieving lts
<adisbladis>
drakonis: Tbh I don't even want to think about LTS at this point..
* adisbladis
is not even a fan of the concept of LTS
<drakonis>
lts as currently done isn't very nice
<aanderse>
debian LTS: shipping unsupported versions of php for years on end
<drakonis>
as it is either "every piece is incredibly out of date" or "everything is updated"
<drakonis>
aanderse, aint that the truth
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<drakonis>
someone pm qyliss about returning, we stopped talking about it
<drakonis>
ubuntu is worse
<drakonis>
shipping unsupported versions of php on main for years, but nothing else
<drakonis>
ubuntu's repository division is so bad, the main repository only contains the things ubuntu ships on their installer
<drakonis>
ubuntu server's offerings and ubuntu desktop variants
<danderson>
fwiw, as someone running Ubuntu LTS in prod for a company: it works much better in the age of containers, because the slow-changing OS is much smaller
<danderson>
it's mostly about "don't upgrade stuff you don't need to, but still ship security patches"
<drakonis>
only upgrade when there's a fix
<drakonis>
its pretty boring
<danderson>
But then you upgrade, and php changes version, mysql has a major upgrade that changes performance characteristics, ...
<drakonis>
php changing versions? is this bad?
<aanderse>
the problem is upstream (in many cases) don't want to support LTS
<aanderse>
php, for example
<aanderse>
they've moved to a (relatively) agressive (when compared to debian) release strategy
<danderson>
yup. LTS is valuable (and companies make money selling LTS) because it's a big support burden
<danderson>
that's how you get entire companies built on selling RHEL and 4-year old Ubuntu ESM editions
<aanderse>
so php upstream abandons php version x.y, and debian keeps shipping it because their LTS policy says that is the correct thing to do
<aanderse>
danderson: yeah, RHEL is really impressive how long they support software
<danderson>
Yeah, Debian has the problem that they keep shipping the old version, but also aren't supporting it.
<aanderse>
mhm
<danderson>
Someone has to do the support. If upstream has moved on, it has to become the distro's problem.
<aanderse>
mhm
<danderson>
(or the distro has to refuse to ship LTS versions)
<drakonis>
debian shipped python 2 on debian 10
<aanderse>
i'm actively trying to eliminate debian for php at work
<drakonis>
even though it will eol in a few months
<aanderse>
drakonis: yup, and that means python2 will be "supported" another 3-4 years on debian 10 :\
<aanderse>
and when i say supported... i mean not supported in any way :P
<drakonis>
red hat is also doing that for rhel 8
<drakonis>
i think, let me look it up
<danderson>
but in particular, it means the Debian maintainer has to support it
<aanderse>
yeah, but RHEL will actually support it
<aanderse>
if any python2 problems are found rhel will patch, even though upstream won't
<danderson>
which, for RHEL and Ubuntu, actually means something. They'll patch security vulnerablities and stuff
<danderson>
for Debian, at best it will mean "I'll import Ubuntu's patches when I have the time"
<drakonis>
they still havent removed it from testing
<drakonis>
ubuntu will ship another release with python 2
<drakonis>
i wonder whether debian will just replace python with tauthon