sphalerite changed the topic of #nixos-dev to: NixOS Development (#nixos for questions) | NixOS 19.09 now in beta! https://discourse.nixos.org/t/nixos-19-09-feature-freeze/3707 | https://hydra.nixos.org/jobset/nixos/trunk-combined https://channels.nix.gsc.io/graph.html | https://r13y.com | 19.09 RMs: disasm, sphalerite | https://logs.nix.samueldr.com/nixos-dev
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<sphalerite> https://hydra.nixos.org/build/102785558/nixlog/18 is this a known issue? Gitlab tarball contents changing under our noses? Or did someone push a tag more than once? Or is it a new problem?
<sphalerite> ah, it was actually updated
<clever> sphalerite: fetchurl or fetchzip?
<sphalerite> hm talyz isn't here
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<disasm> release 19.09 is tagged. How long do we wait for the website to update?
<gchristensen> woot!
<globin> disasm: asap ;)
<disasm> globin: nixnut update org configurations here: https://github.com/NixOS/nixos-org-configurations/commit/476afc1a394c37caae1414479a8f12fafea1f7a4 is there anything else that needs done for it to work?
<globin> disasm: nixos-homepage needs an update, too
<aanderse> ohh exciting!
<aanderse> disasm++
<{^_^}> disasm's karma got increased to 8
<disasm> aha, forking that now :)
<aanderse> sphalerite++
<{^_^}> sphalerite's karma got increased to 70
<globin> disasm: should be included in the nixos RM manual chapter (if not please do so ;) )
<disasm> yeah, I'm guessing homepage was split from org configurations
<disasm> looks like shell.nix Makefile and news.xml
<globin> disasm: sounds plausible
<disasm> globin: where do I get the nixos logo for this release?
<gchristensen> is it in nixos-artwork on github?
<globin> hmm, ask mogorman probably, don't know if he's on IRC
<disasm> globin: do I copy https://github.com/NixOS/nixos-artwork/blob/master/releases/19.09-loris/loris.png to logo/nixos-logo-19.09-loris-lores.png?
<globin> I don
<disasm> k
<globin> I don't think we had anything wrt artwork in the releases I RM'd
<globin> best ask samueldr probably ^
<disasm> samueldr: I see you added the logo for 19.03 to the home page. Do I just copy the png in artwork repo?
<disasm> I'm trying it and seeing if it looks decent
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<samueldr> disasm: it was copied, and within gimp reduced to a 100px wide image
<samueldr> because otherwise, oof, that would have been a huge download for nothing
<{^_^}> nixos-homepage#311 (by disassembler, 14 seconds ago, open): news: 19.09 release
<disasm> whoever can approve that and merge would be great :)
<disasm> that should finalize the 19.09 release process :)
<gchristensen> has the channel bumped to be stable yet?
<gchristensen> yes it has!
<gchristensen> right?
<disasm> yes!
<lassulus> 19.09 released?!?
<disasm> yup!
<disasm> gchristensen: is the website update automatic?
<gchristensen> disasm++ sphalerite++ wooooo!
<{^_^}> disasm's karma got increased to 9, sphalerite's karma got increased to 71
<gchristensen> disasm: it is (every 20m or so)
<disasm> awesome!
<disasm> I need to finish the post on discourse now :)
<drakonis1> niiiiiiice
<Taneb> Only the 39th of September, an early release!
<gchristensen> in Texas it is, like, the 80th of July
<Taneb> gchristensen: in that case 19.09 can't be released for another two Texas months!
<gchristensen> lol
<gchristensen> (context: it has been >95F,35C nearly every day since July)
<disasm> discord autocomplete is so flaky
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<disasm> discourse lol
<disasm> anyone know who Mario Rodas is (specifically their name on discourse)
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<disasm> nooo!!!
<disasm> I can only mention 10 users in a post
<disasm> is that a limitation of discourse or of my user privileges?
<samueldr> both I think
<worldofpeace> disasm: marsam
<worldofpeace> i guess discourse is https://discourse.nixos.org/u/marsam/summary
<worldofpeace> Can we update the rl notes post-release? Looking at them I can't tell what happened to gcc, openssl, did the kernel or systemd change.
<gchristensen> sure
* worldofpeace uploaded an image: Screenshot from 2019-10-09 13-03-53.png (17KB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/dSncujjejZdixIpHmnZVFYcR >
<worldofpeace> ^ is an example
<gchristensen> hrm
<gchristensen> should probably each be their own list item
<drakonis> hooooh
<drakonis> can i announce 19.09 on hn and lobsters and reddit?
<worldofpeace> disasm++
<{^_^}> disasm's karma got increased to 11
<gchristensen> drakonis: maybe wait to see if disasm would like to :)
<drakonis> aight
<gchristensen> we might want to change the website to stop pretending you can burn our graphical ISO to a CD :D
<infinisil> Nice work disasm++ and sphalerite++!
<{^_^}> disasm's karma got increased to 12, sphalerite's karma got increased to 73
<drakonis> agreed on that
<drakonis> live usbs for life
<worldofpeace> omg totally forgot about #70325
<{^_^}> https://github.com/NixOS/nixpkgs/pull/70325 (by worldofpeace, 6 days ago, open): NetworkManager, ModemManager: move all symlinks to alias, add alias for modem-manager.service
<worldofpeace> hmm, our release date is pretty cool 2019/09/09
<worldofpeace> lol, I don't know what month or day it is 🤣
<gchristensen> :P
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<drakonis> gotta update the changelog to match the release date
<ashkitten> lol, it's too big for a cd?
<delroth> gchristensen: is https://r13y.com/ getting automatically updated by something? seems like it's currently stuck at 2019-08-09
<gchristensen> delroth: it is paused right now. the infra I've been running it on doesn't handle it very well anymore, and I haven't yet set it up to run elsewhere
<delroth> ahh ok, thanks
<gchristensen> the most ideal next step involves anybody contributing build checking, but I'm not feeling like that is how I'm going to spend my time soon
<worldofpeace> gchristensen: https://github.com/NixOS/nixpkgs/pull/70873
<{^_^}> #70873 (by worldofpeace, 32 seconds ago, open): rl-1909: brief package version changes
<gchristensen> try a build? nix-build nixos/release.nix -A manual
<worldofpeace> I did nix-build nixos/release.nix -A manualHTML.x86_64-linux
<gchristensen> cool
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<samueldr> topic may need an edit :)
<gchristensen> you up for it, samueldr?
samueldr changed the topic of #nixos-dev to: #nixos-dev NixOS Development (#nixos for questions) | NixOS 19.09 is released! https://discourse.nixos.org/t/nixos-19-09-release/4306 | https://hydra.nixos.org/jobset/nixos/trunk-combined https://channels.nix.gsc.io/graph.html | https://r13y.com | 19.09 RMs: disasm, sphalerite | https://logs.nix.samueldr.com/nixos-dev
<drakonis> its time for one 20.03
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<gchristensen> https://github.com/NixOS/nix/pull/3136 anyone available to help review this PR? it fixes a CVE which was announced today.
<{^_^}> nix#3136 (by edolstra, 4 hours ago, open): Remove world-writability from {profiles,gcroots}/per-user
<gchristensen> ok we're merging
<Profpatsch> gchristensen: lol, I was wondering why that is allowed.
<Profpatsch> Do we need to patch lorri?
<gchristensen> don't think so?
<Profpatsch> I know that we are creating that directory if it doesn’t exist
<gchristensen> then we may need to delete that :)
<Profpatsch> Hm, but created by the daemon, so not in single-user installs?
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<qyliss> drakonis: just this: https://0x0.st/zw55.txt
<drakonis> one of the commits in there changes tor to use firefox profiles instead of its own
<drakonis> i'm not sure why this is the default instead of the bundled version
<gchristensen> yikes that is frightening
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<drakonis> looks like a surefire way to footshoot if you forget to use a different profile
<drakonis> it says in the description that this is the default behavior
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<drakonis> but who reads the description for any packages
<gchristensen> hrm
<drakonis> i'm not not very happy that this is default behavior for the package labeled tor-browser
<drakonis> if anything it should've been tor-browser-unbundled instead
<samueldr> it'S not the attrname `tor-browser` though but I agree it leaves a bad taste
<drakonis> the actual tor-browser is tor-browser-bundled
<drakonis> i'll be right back
<drakonis_> it would be a good time to have some rules for packages that deviate from default behavior
<drakonis_> rebar comes to mind here
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<worldofpeace> like their fork should be under NixOS, and it would look much better.
<drakonis_> would also be nice
<drakonis_> but gotta have a way for handling package modifications that go beyond simple fixing
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<drakonis> https://discourse.nixos.org/t/state-of-the-beam-ecosystem-in-nix/4202 this whole post came up due to patched behavior
<qyliss> Or nix-community
<qyliss> but there's no reason we should be patching this in the first place
<qyliss> It also uses different version numbers from upstream Tor
<qyliss> afaict
<qyliss> i might be wrong about that -- tor's build process is complicated
<worldofpeace> I'd think the most honest thing would be to open your PR and clearly ask them about it. "can we consoladate these patches, why do we have them?". how long how they maintained this?
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<drakonis> and offer an unpatched version when possible
<drakonis> for regular behavior
<drakonis> which is nice for nix users
<drakonis> rather than nixos
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<worldofpeace> yeah, downstream patches are just generally not desireable unless we're committed to use them to improve the experience to users
<drakonis> a situation that comes to mind here is debian's relationship with calibre's upstream
<drakonis> they have so many patches that calibre's developer doesnt take bug reports from debian anymore
<worldofpeace> lol really?
<qyliss> not taking bug reports from debian is generally a good thing to do anyway
<qyliss> because debian versions are so outdated
<qyliss> debian users are supposed to report bugs to debian, not to upstream
<worldofpeace> tbh this is true
<drakonis> debian also patches packages to make them reproducible
<qyliss> I really don't think we should be tofu-ing Tor either, but that's an argument for another day
<worldofpeace> I honestly would be uncomfortable to attract the attention of this particular contributor :D
<drakonis> debian also patches dependencies lol
<drakonis> let me find the source
<samueldr> thinking about it, I think the intent was "firefox, but with all tor browser features" and not "tor browser"
<qyliss> Yeah
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<qyliss> worldofpeace: me too but nobody else is going to
<drakonis> it should be labeled as firefox-tor then
<qyliss> it should be slnos-tor
<worldofpeace> exactly
<worldofpeace> yep, it's basically their package
<samueldr> slnos-not-exactly-tor-but-not-exactly-firefox-either-browser
<qyliss> that one
<drakonis> that works
<worldofpeace> samueldr++
<{^_^}> samueldr's karma got increased to 123
<samueldr> kind of a mouthful though
<drakonis> debian has a problem with a patched web of dependencies
<drakonis> calibre itself isnt heavily patched but its dependencies might be patched up
<drakonis> somewhere along the web
<gchristensen> aaaaaaaaah wow
<adisbladis> samueldr: Oh! You mean the old SNETBNEFEB
<qyliss> The Calibre developer isn't somebody I'd want to interact with anyway
<adisbladis> Less of a mouthful
<drakonis> he isn't, yes.
<adisbladis> qyliss: That's a special brand of crazy :D
<samueldr> adisbladis: bless you
<adisbladis> :D
<drakonis> he did give into the pressure and ported calibre to python 3
<adisbladis> drakonis: Yeah, python3 port is coming
<drakonis> debian patches glibc btw
<drakonis> there are a billion patches
<adisbladis> It's patches all the way down
<drakonis> debian has a huge problem
<drakonis> they still engage in the thing that broke openssl rng
<gchristensen> a lot of those patches are good and important patches that we depend on
<gchristensen> debian's team works incredibly hard, and does really good work towards their goals
<drakonis> there's a page of hurd patches and another for freebsd
<worldofpeace> meanwhile we're over here sipping that 🍵
<gchristensen> please don't drag down people contributing to debian
<drakonis> aight
<worldofpeace> gchristensen: true, a lot of their work doesn't just benefit them.
<drakonis> i'm not trying to drag them down
<qyliss> Debian's approach to being a distribution is fine
<drakonis> debian does useful things
<qyliss> It works for them
<drakonis> the problem is when they patch things without understanding why
<drakonis> it has caused some attrition with debian and upstreams before
<drakonis> because if it makes it to a stable release, it stays for years
<gchristensen> yea
<drakonis> ubuntu's lts releases last how many years again? 6?
<drakonis> which makes things worse
<drakonis> there's always something to be learned from their mistakes
<qyliss> 10
<qyliss> 10 years
<infinisil> Oof
<drakonis> holy moly.
<drakonis> and i think debian has extended lts
<drakonis> which lasts
<drakonis> uhh let me look it up
<qyliss> Doing a test build of tbb now
<gchristensen> how long is redhat's again?
<adisbladis> gchristensen: Until your money runs out.
<qyliss> IIRC this takes 20 minutes or so
<infinisil> I guess with NixOS we can be much more careless because of rollbacks
<gchristensen> :P
<drakonis> gchristensen, rhel8's normal cycle goes until 2022
<gchristensen> infinisil: well there is that, and there is also the part where nobody pays nixos $$$,$$$,$$$
<qyliss> Looking forward to somebody paying us 7 digits for kpatch
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<gchristensen> sgtm
<gchristensen> though for kpatch I would prefer you ask for 8...
<infinisil> If we had lots of resources/money/people, where would we invest?
<infinisil> We could get somebody to write docs full-time :P
<samueldr> probably in line with the investor's
<infinisil> samueldr: Let's say it's a donation-type of deal
<gchristensen> documentation, security, marketing
<drakonis__> i think debian's full cycle is 10+ too
<drakonis__> longer even?
<infinisil> I can't imagine how to better market NixOS
<qyliss> community
<gchristensen> I can! send people to every devops conference to tell the story of nixos
<qyliss> somebody who makes sure everybody is happy and stuff
<gchristensen> qyliss++
<{^_^}> qyliss's karma got increased to 12
<samueldr> prepare informative blog posts about mundane things
<gchristensen> definitely community.
<infinisil> Can a community be improved with moneehs?
<samueldr> prepare thick "here's what's nixos good for" for C* levels
<infinisil> Or whatever you meant by "community"/
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<gchristensen> samueldr: yeah!
<drakonis__> pump money into enhancing the experience
<qyliss> infinisil: definitely
<adisbladis> infinisil: For sure it can
<infinisil> How so?
<drakonis__> more devs, people that can maintain older releases
<samueldr> thick documents* for C* levels
<qyliss> Suppose I wanted to talk to a hypothetical person about their behaviour in the community
<gchristensen> developer tooling
<gchristensen> UX
<gchristensen> making ofborg take 45s instead of 10m
<drakonis__> maintain a repository with core older packages
<qyliss> Putting together examples and stuff and sitting down with them to explain it would take way more time than I am willing to spend
<qyliss> It's hard fucking work that somebody should be getting paid for
<gchristensen> tbh th ework everybody here does is hard work that could easily be a job
<qyliss> Although you have to be very careful to make sure they don't turn into police
<infinisil> qyliss: Oh you mean a person that is there solely to admin community discussions?
<adisbladis> I remember one of my big hurdles of getting involved in nixos was just the sheer compilation time testing a lot of changes take
<qyliss> infinisil: not solely
<qyliss> nobody should be solely doing that
<infinisil> Hehe, job description "NixOS community chief of police"
<drakonis__> feature request: rebuild core packages without triggering a full rebuild of everything, its great for testing
<drakonis__> rebuild a specific path
<qyliss> can we please not joke about police
<worldofpeace> ewwww
<worldofpeace> ^
<drakonis__> ew south park
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<drakonis> how to deal with corporate sponsors and lts btw?
<infinisil> qyliss: Actual question: Why? Isn't playing the police pretty much what admins have to do when people act up?
<drakonis> do you just build an overlay for core packages?
<qyliss> infinisil: hell no
<qyliss> getting people to leave a community is very different to being police
<drakonis> infinisil, its called the fun police
<adisbladis> drakonis: I think we come back to the question of support tiers in regards to LTS
<qyliss> but if you want to have this discussion, I don't think this is the place
<qyliss> And it will be very heated and emotional
<drakonis> WHEE WHOO WHEE WHOO, PUT YOUR HANDS IN THE AIR, NO FUN ALLOWED
<drakonis> definitely the wrong moment for this
<drakonis> support tiers are just a piece of the puzzle
<infinisil> qyliss: I just want to know why the police is associated with being a bad in such cases, I haven't really thought about it, I don't need a long discussion, just a short explanation
<drakonis> infinisil, american police is notoriously terrible
<samueldr> don't even need to bring a specific geo-location
<infinisil> Ah that thing
<drakonis> they're the lowest common denominator for bad police
<samueldr> "the police" doesn't mean the same for everyone in the world
<samueldr> drakonis: please don't
<drakonis> okay fine
<drakonis> media ingrained this view too
<qyliss> i'm gonna /part for a bit. i regret brining up the word "police"
<samueldr> and not only from personal judgement, but from actions; "the police" can't have an equal definition everywhere
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<drakonis> aight welp
<drakonis> i'll drop this
<drakonis> this is no bueno
<drakonis> some folks have joins/leaves disabled
<infinisil> In switzerland (and other countries too probably) the police aren't associated with anything bad anyways, but I guess many people think of america for the word police
<drakonis> adisbladis, there would need to be some kind of infrastructure for achieving lts
<adisbladis> drakonis: Tbh I don't even want to think about LTS at this point..
* adisbladis is not even a fan of the concept of LTS
<drakonis> lts as currently done isn't very nice
<aanderse> debian LTS: shipping unsupported versions of php for years on end
<drakonis> as it is either "every piece is incredibly out of date" or "everything is updated"
<drakonis> aanderse, aint that the truth
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<drakonis> someone pm qyliss about returning, we stopped talking about it
<drakonis> ubuntu is worse
<drakonis> shipping unsupported versions of php on main for years, but nothing else
<drakonis> ubuntu's repository division is so bad, the main repository only contains the things ubuntu ships on their installer
<drakonis> ubuntu server's offerings and ubuntu desktop variants
<danderson> fwiw, as someone running Ubuntu LTS in prod for a company: it works much better in the age of containers, because the slow-changing OS is much smaller
<danderson> it's mostly about "don't upgrade stuff you don't need to, but still ship security patches"
<drakonis> only upgrade when there's a fix
<drakonis> its pretty boring
<danderson> But then you upgrade, and php changes version, mysql has a major upgrade that changes performance characteristics, ...
<drakonis> php changing versions? is this bad?
<aanderse> the problem is upstream (in many cases) don't want to support LTS
<aanderse> php, for example
<aanderse> they've moved to a (relatively) agressive (when compared to debian) release strategy
<danderson> yup. LTS is valuable (and companies make money selling LTS) because it's a big support burden
<danderson> that's how you get entire companies built on selling RHEL and 4-year old Ubuntu ESM editions
<aanderse> so php upstream abandons php version x.y, and debian keeps shipping it because their LTS policy says that is the correct thing to do
<aanderse> danderson: yeah, RHEL is really impressive how long they support software
<danderson> Yeah, Debian has the problem that they keep shipping the old version, but also aren't supporting it.
<aanderse> mhm
<danderson> Someone has to do the support. If upstream has moved on, it has to become the distro's problem.
<aanderse> mhm
<danderson> (or the distro has to refuse to ship LTS versions)
<drakonis> debian shipped python 2 on debian 10
<aanderse> i'm actively trying to eliminate debian for php at work
<drakonis> even though it will eol in a few months
<aanderse> drakonis: yup, and that means python2 will be "supported" another 3-4 years on debian 10 :\
<aanderse> and when i say supported... i mean not supported in any way :P
<drakonis> red hat is also doing that for rhel 8
<drakonis> i think, let me look it up
<danderson> but in particular, it means the Debian maintainer has to support it
<aanderse> yeah, but RHEL will actually support it
<aanderse> if any python2 problems are found rhel will patch, even though upstream won't
<danderson> which, for RHEL and Ubuntu, actually means something. They'll patch security vulnerablities and stuff
<danderson> for Debian, at best it will mean "I'll import Ubuntu's patches when I have the time"
<drakonis> they still havent removed it from testing
<drakonis> ubuntu will ship another release with python 2
<drakonis> i wonder whether debian will just replace python with tauthon
<drakonis> https://github.com/naftaliharris/tauthon speaking of which, is there a package for this?
<drakonis> this gives me an idea, an repository for packages considered "legacy", use it at your own risk
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