samueldr changed the topic of #nixos-dev to: #nixos-dev NixOS Development (#nixos for questions) | NixOS 19.09 is released! https://discourse.nixos.org/t/nixos-19-09-release/4306 | https://hydra.nixos.org/jobset/nixos/trunk-combined https://channels.nix.gsc.io/graph.html | https://r13y.com | 19.09 RMs: disasm, sphalerite | https://logs.nix.samueldr.com/nixos-dev
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<andi-> What is the reasoning behind the custom base-32 in Nix? The characters `E O U T` are emitted. I could guess that it is relic and at some point Nix did scan for `out` or such?
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<Taneb> andi-: apparently it was to minimize the chance of swear words appearing in the hash
<eyJhb> What, the, hell. Does that matter, at all?
<andi-> Taneb: source for that? :D
<Taneb> andi-: I thought I read it in Eelco's PhD thesis but I may be mistaken
<andi-> ahh, worth checking that again
<andi-> Taneb: you are indeed right: This is to reduce the possibilitythat hash representations contain character sequences that are potentially offensive to someusers (a known possibility with alphanumeric representations of numbers [11]).
<andi-> I am using https://nixos.org/~eelco/pubs/phd-thesis.pdf looks more authorative :D
<Taneb> (I googled "Eelco dolstra phd" and clicked the first pdf link)
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<niksnut> nix's base32 is older than RFC 4648
<FRidh> gchristensen: aanderse globin worldofpeace alright, thanks. I'll update the RFC with the feedback from the meeting.
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<globin> Taneb, andi-: but two hashes in nixpkgs with "nazi" ;)
<eyJhb> globin: gotta watch out now!
<andi-> maybe base2 is the "best" representation?
<andi-> or base 2^256 to avoid such things?
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<niksnut> base85 ftw
<{^_^}> #71176 (by edolstra, 9 minutes ago, open): Merge nixpkgs-channels repo into nixpkgs
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<domenkozar[m]> woot
<domenkozar[m]> no 5.x kernels in 19.09?
<domenkozar[m]> what's going on
<qyliss> domenkozar[m]: linux_latest
<aminechikhaoui> I have 5.3.5 here
<samueldr> the versioned attribute names were removed to make the "api" stable
<domenkozar[m]> so I have a kernel crash that's fixed in 5.0
<qyliss> use linux_latest
<samueldr> the versioned attribute names for kernels that will EOL during the release*
<qyliss> The other attributes were dropped because they aren't stable -- linux_5_2 won't be around for the lifetime of 19.09.
<domenkozar[m]> I don't want to use bleeding edge, that's insane
<domenkozar[m]> so I can't use months old maintained kernel
<domenkozar[m]> but I can use bleeding edge :D
<samueldr> _latest is not _unstable; it's the latest released kernel
<samueldr> there's another one for rcs and such :)
<samueldr> though once the next LTS is released, I think an attrname can be added for it without worries
<samueldr> (once the next LTS is announced, too, not sure it's been)
<domenkozar[m]> I'd rather use _5_3
<domenkozar[m]> than suddenly getting broken 5.4
<domenkozar[m]> because I'm forced to follow _latest
<{^_^}> #70202 (by alyssais, 1 week ago, merged): [19.09] linux: drop non-LTS versioned kernel attributes
<qyliss> wow, slow bot
<qyliss> domenkozar[m]: AAUI, as soon as 5.4 comes out, 5.3 is considered EOL
<qyliss> I don't think there's really an upstream flow for what you want to do, and we can't reasonably support kernels that aren't supported upstream.
<samueldr> looks like any version is EOL'd in about the month following the release of the next version
<domenkozar[m]> qyliss: consider two scenarios
<domenkozar[m]> when 5.3 is EOL
<domenkozar[m]> 1. I get an error: kernel 5.3 is end of life, pick another kernel
<domenkozar[m]> I type kernel.org, pick one
<domenkozar[m]> fix nix, rebuild
<domenkozar[m]> 1min of work tops
<tilpner> domenkozar[m]: You can put an assert into your config that will error if it's not using 5.3
<domenkozar[m]> 2. I'm forced to use _latest, which I don't notice during channel bump, and 4 weeks later I reboot because my machine freezes. I boot and it hangs. I lose 4h debugging what happened
<domenkozar[m]> why are we giving up evaluation errors for users time?
<domenkozar[m]> tilpner: how is that different to having _5_3 attribute?
<tilpner> domenkozar[m]: boot.kernelPackages = assert lib.versions.majorMinor linuxPackages_latest.kernel.modDirVersion == "5.3"; linuxPackages_latest;
<tilpner> Now your config breaks if you update to a nixpkgs where _latest is not 5.3
<tilpner> No accidental upgrades
<qyliss> domenkozar[m]: because we shouldn't be encouraging users to depend on specific non-LTS kernel versions.
<domenkozar[m]> tilpner: that's perfect, let's have it upstream :D
<domenkozar[m]> qyliss: I understand the quest for stable api, but that's just not always the best path imho
<domenkozar[m]> on top of that, we can instruct what to do when api breaks
<domenkozar[m]> I do think that's important
<qyliss> Consider this scenario: one of the nice things about stable is you can set up automatic upgrades on your server and be reasonably confident it will keep automatically updating forever
<qyliss> If you pin to 5_3, that breaks
<domenkozar[m]> you can be reasonably comfortable it's going to break
<domenkozar[m]> and you won't even know how
<qyliss> fwiw, the reason this whole thing started was that people (other than me) didn't like that we were dropping stable kernels: https://logs.nix.samueldr.com/nixos-dev/2019-06-24#2333952;
<domenkozar[m]> optimizing for no evaluations erros and rather runtime errors is throwing away all the benefits we have over a typical distribution
<qyliss> You're talking as if upgrading to a new stable kernel is guaranteed (or at least extremely likely) to brick your system
<qyliss> That doesn't match my experience at all, at least.
<domenkozar[m]> instead you should setup alerting :-)
<qyliss> The one time I remember a kernel upgrade breaking NixOS, the change that broke it was backported to a patch version anyway.
<gchristensen> we had a big discussion about this already domenkozar[m], maybe we could find it in the logs
<qyliss> gchristensen: I just linked both of them
<gchristensen> ahh oops, sorry :)
<qyliss> The broken kernel patch release I just mentioned: https://lwn.net/Articles/779997/
<gchristensen> yeah, the "stable" branches get a nearly random collection of patches. whatever happens to be selected for backport by the AI-powered backport bot.
<gchristensen> (for those playing buzzword bingo in my private messages, yes this AI powered backport bot is also blockchain since it is writing to git)
<qyliss> What does it take for "Nix" to reach buzzword status?
<cransom> i suspect it would be some large entity publicly advertising they are going to throw a big chunk of money at it with some press release with a clickbaity title like 'chef/ansible/salt are dead.'
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<kl3> hi - is anyone watching https://discourse.nixos.org/c/inbox ? submitting patches via mail has been broken for quite a while
<globin> zimbatm: ^
<kl3> contributing without any of this monolithic web bloat around github (and discourse) is currently impossible
<clever> kl3: github has a command line interface
<clever> $ nix-locate bin/hub
<clever> gitAndTools.hub.out 9,621,738 x /nix/store/yfhqlyqcsfw415h99bnqhw8v9swsv5z3-hub-2.2.9/bin/hub
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