sphalerite changed the topic of #nixos-dev to: NixOS Development (#nixos for questions) | NixOS 19.03 released! https://discourse.nixos.org/t/nixos-19-03-release/2652 | https://hydra.nixos.org/jobset/nixos/trunk-combined https://channels.nix.gsc.io/graph.html https://r13y.com | 19.03 RMs: samueldr,sphalerite | https://logs.nix.samueldr.com/nixos-dev
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<Shados> samueldr: unless they patented prior to your publication, you'd be able to dispute the patent on grounds of prior art, I think?
<samueldr> in a just world :)
<samueldr> they might be in another country, or have so much money that it becomes a hassle to get done
<samueldr> and they might be right too
<samueldr> people _do_ think of the same things in parallel!
<Shados> Sure. Like calculus.
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<domenkozar[m]> infinisil: I'd highly avoid GPL
<domenkozar[m]> more thoughts here (you'll have to expand twitter terrible UI) https://twitter.com/domenkozar/status/1112912707101974528
<domenkozar[m]> it has many drawbacks that you only discover when it's too late
<domenkozar[m]> I use ASL as it does the right thing
<domenkozar[m]> most people love MIT/BSD3
<domenkozar[m]> but lawyers do face-palm when they see it
<domenkozar[m]> because it says nothing about all the issues
<domenkozar[m]> so interpretation is left to the country of origin
<domenkozar[m]> if you want to sell your livers to lawyers that's the way to do it
<domenkozar[m]> but then all in all, you have to decide on the goals, but it takes some learning to understand which ones are worth pursuing
<domenkozar[m]> I'm lucky to have hanged around silver_hook for long time :) he's one of the best FOSS lawyers out there in EU and trust me the stories you hear, many lessons learned.
<drakonis> domenkozar[m]: have you thought about providing the ability to browse cachix?
<drakonis> a public cache index
<domenkozar[m]> listing of nars?
<domenkozar[m]> there will be one for the owner, but having public listing I'm not convinced it's useful
<domenkozar[m]> although it would be implicilty useful once it has command-not-found support
<domenkozar[m]> drakonis: what's your use case? :)
<drakonis> it is useful for code that isn't ready for nixpkgs
<drakonis> or some kind of repository that cannot exist in nixpkgs
<drakonis> its useful for specific edge cases
<drakonis> providing public builds is my use case
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<domenkozar[m]> but do you want to list: caches, derivations or files within?
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<domenkozar[m]> @drak
<domenkozar[m]> drakonis: ^^
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<qyliss^work> MPL is nice -- I think of it as halfway between GPL and ASL
<Taneb> American Sign language?
<Taneb> Oh, Apache Software License?
<Profpatsch> domenkozar[m]: What are other drawbacks of the GPL apart from companies not using your code?
<Profpatsch> Which might not be a bad thing honestly :)
<domenkozar[m]> did you read the twitter thread?
<domenkozar[m]> because I give a bunch of reasons there :)
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<domenkozar[m]> Steve Klabnik wrote in very similar taste just a few days later: https://words.steveklabnik.com/what-comes-after-open-source
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<domenkozar[m]> actually he published that just a few hours ago after our discussion with Jake :)
<domenkozar[m]> s/ago//
<domenkozar[m]> I think his blog post should be summarized by Tim Minchin quote
<domenkozar[m]> Science adjusts its views based on what's observed
<domenkozar[m]> Faith is the denial of observation so that belief can be preserved.
<Profpatsch> Free Software was not always about the licenses. I mean it still isn’t, it’s about the four freedoms.
<Profpatsch> But the FSF is a bit stuck in their ways I guess.
<Profpatsch> And who can blame them, it has worked for them so far
<Profpatsch> I think a huge part of the struggle is (as everywhere else) about the (well-founded) fear of companies taking the commons and privatizing them
<domenkozar[m]> you mean the motivation for using GPL?
<Profpatsch> Though of course, coming from an inverse copyright-discussion angle, proprietized MIT/APL/MPL code does not un-opensource the existing code.
<Profpatsch> The proprietary parts are just lost to the commons is all
<Profpatsch> domenkozar[m]: I guess
<domenkozar[m]> long story to explain how that doesn't wor
<domenkozar[m]> k
<domenkozar[m]> not really in the mood to go down that path :)
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<ryantm> Thanks for pointing out the issues with nixpkgs-update licensing. I'll work on making it better.
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<ryantm> For starters, I fixed the wrong project name in my public domaind dedication. https://github.com/ryantm/nixpkgs-update/commit/16e27636f40e7869fc95f77374d51f65022bc54a
<tilpner> ryantm: Public domain dedication is supposedly less usable usable in some jurisdictions than an unrestrictive license
<ryantm> tilpner: That doesn't make sense because if that is a problem they could just ask anyone in the United States to license it for them.
<gchristensen> according to (a book I can't remember the title of) the US has no provisions for dedicating work to the public domain anymore
<ryantm> Interesting. It's a moral issue for me to do a public domain dedication. I want to minimize the government's power over people using my work.
<gchristensen> I'll get the name of the book in a bit
<tilpner> ryantm: I'm not really familiar with the details. https://opensource.stackexchange.com/questions/1371/how-can-i-place-software-in-the-public-domain seems to somewhat agree though
<ryantm> If I can get all the contributors to dedicate their work to the public domain, then I can license it under any number of other licenses that might make people happy.
<gchristensen> "...They may even prohibit any attempt by copyright owners to surrender rights automatically..." a problem the book mentioned is that all licenses like this expire after a certain number of years
<tilpner> But what if the catch is that it's not legally possible to dedicate something to the public domain?
<tilpner> Then you make it seem like your creation is safe to use, while indeed nobody else has any right to use it
<tilpner> If you have looked into this in detail, I'll shut up right now :)
<ryantm> I haven't looked into it too in-depth.
<tilpner> I can't safely say either way whether public domain is possible or not for you
<tilpner> But I can say that there is some FUD around it that may cause people to shy away from your creation while they wouldn't have worried with a safer license
<tilpner> ryantm: When you click "public domain dedication" on https://choosealicense.com/no-permission/ it directs you to The Unlicense
<gchristensen> ryantm: "Common as air" by Lewis Hyde talks about the issues of public domain, commons, and how the US doesn't have it
<ryantm> Maybe I need to become a U.S. government employee
<gchristensen> hehe
<ryantm> djb seems to think it's a thing http://cr.yp.to/publicdomain.html
<tilpner> Again, I lack any qualification to say whether it's a thing or not
* gchristensen doesn't know
<tilpner> But just the existence of the question whether it is would make me decide for a license
<ryantm> My concern for a license is that one of the contributors or their heirs might try to use the government to force other people to do something.
<ryantm> I don't want to be promoting that kind of thing.
<gchristensen> sounds like you need a laywer :X
<ryantm> gchristensen: Thanks for the book reference.
<gchristensen> yep!
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<ryantm> Oh, cool. I reside in the jurisdiction of the 9th circuit, which is where the case dbj mentions happened.
<Profpatsch> domenkozar[m]: You mean how the GPL doesn’t help with keeping code in the commons?
<Profpatsch> I guess what the article you linked says is true, you can’t prevent bad actors from being bad actors.
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<domenkozar[m]> Honestly I'm not sure if you're trolling or you made that conclusion to fit your bias :)
<domenkozar[m]> but let's say that is the conclusion, wasn't GPL whole point to prevent bad actors?
<domenkozar[m]> maybe that discussion should happen on a different channel : )
<domenkozar[m]> btw, I was thinking we'd make nix-prefetch* scripts not require write access to store
<domenkozar[m]> so they can be used during build time
<domenkozar[m]> I mean, optionally not require.
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<ryantm> My impression is the nix-prefetch scripts are useless if you want them to work generally, because they don't work the same way as nix-build.
<ryantm> I had to abandon using nix-prefetch-url -A in nixpkgs-update because I kept running into corner cases it doesn't handle.
<ryantm> Now I just use nix-build and parse the output of it to find the hash it expects.
<domenkozar[m]> in this case you can't use nix-build withing a build so that's not an option :)
<ryantm> Yep! :)
<ryantm> I made a pull request to gather copyright waivers from the nixpkgs-update contributors https://github.com/ryantm/nixpkgs-update/pull/115
<{^_^}> ryantm/nixpkgs-update#115 (by ryantm, 1 minute ago, open): indicate that contributors also waive their copyrights
<manveru> is this desired behaviour? nix-shell seems to interpret all shebangs no matter where... https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/Hc0aMkob/test.sh
<samueldr> it's the implemented behaviour
<samueldr> and been that way since a good while back
<manveru> :)
<samueldr> I asked at the time and had no "but omg wtf?" reactions so I guess it's fine
<manveru> ok, was just surprised
<manveru> wanted to make a nix-shell script that writes nix-shell scripts, and hit that
<samueldr> and, AFAIK, it won't be "fixed", as lua would require other hacks
<samueldr> at least, that's something I figured out when thinking about it
<samueldr> oh, I guess one could write a quiney thing then using that feature :)
<manveru> jup :D
<samueldr> and while I said lua, that's not limited to lua; any language that doesn't use `#` as comments delimiter would need to somehow wrangle those instructions into a multi-line comment
<samueldr> so imagine a C++ interpreter (no #) `/*\n#! nix-shell -p ...\n*/`
<manveru> yeah, i understand the reasoning
<manveru> was just wondering, since i didn't immediately get it :)
<manveru> anyway, ruby.withPackages and ruby_*-gems PR is finally ready for broader consumption: https://github.com/NixOS/nixpkgs/pull/61114
<{^_^}> #61114 (by manveru, 1 day ago, open): ruby: add ruby.withPackages
<gchristensen> ryantm: you might want to read up on https://nlnet.nl/PET/faq/ before soliciting contributors to make specific license changes
<gchristensen> to make sure it is compatible
<thoughtpolice> Speaking of that, I actually did have a nix-shell-cc prototype somewhere I've forgotten that could be used as a shebang with nix-shell. Needless to say: absolutely horrifying.
<thoughtpolice> In my defense though, I really didn't want to type out the 5 extra words to run 'gcc' in nix-shell.
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<armijn> hello, I was asked by gchristensen to join this channel
<Taneb> Hi, armijn
<gchristensen> ryantm: armijn works with nlnet on the grants and what not
<armijn> and I believe that the topic is this particular license: https://github.com/ryantm/nixpkgs-update/blob/master/LICENSE
<armijn> note, I am not a lawyer, but I work a lot with lawyers on open source license compliance
<gchristensen> and also the topic is https://github.com/ryantm/nixpkgs-update/pull/115 armijn
<{^_^}> ryantm/nixpkgs-update#115 (by ryantm, 1 hour ago, open): indicate that contributors also waive their copyrights
<armijn> I understand what ryantm wants to do but I don't think that this is the right approach
<armijn> the difficult part is this:
<armijn> "To the extent possible under law"
<armijn> it isn't defined what happens if it is *not* possible
<armijn> and it might also not be possible to waive copyrights in certain jurisdictions
<armijn> therefore I would very strongly recommend to use a standard very permissive license, assuming that this is the intention
<armijn> ryantm: what is your intention with this particular license?
<armijn> ah, there are logs :)
<armijn> "My concern for a license is that one of the contributors or their heirs might try to use the government to force other people to do something."
<armijn> yes, it is possible that in certain jurisdictions copyrights will eventually end up in the hands of a government.
<armijn> but by making an *explicit* license grant (example: MIT) you are taking away that threat: code cannot be retroactively relicensed
<armijn> the copyright holders would still have the copyright (which cannot easily be waived in certain jurisdictions) but since you would have a license it doesn't matter who owns the copyright in the code
<armijn> the current language leaves that up in the air
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<armijn> ryantm: can we talk?
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<armijn> ryantm: I have reached out to some lawyers in the US, hoping to have a contact for you to talk to soon
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<ryantm> armijn: I direct messaged you on IRC.
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<gchristensen> When running a `--check` build with `--keep-failed`, Nix puts a differing output dir at `/nix/store/...-foo.check`. this path is not registered, and so is not safe from GC
<gchristensen> I think it would be interesting to have this path be GC rooted so that (a) I don't have to do string concatenation to find it, (b) it doesn't get GC rooted. also, i think it wouldbe interesting in these cases to provide an output which contains the build directory ("/build/...") so I can get a good reference to that, too.
<gchristensen> any ideas on how to do this? the part I'm unsure of is if there is a way for at the end of the build to instantiate "bogus" drvs for these to be capttured
<gchristensen> one method I considered is using the diff hook mechanism (extending this to support passing in the temp dir), although this is still racy
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<sphalerite> gchristensen: I assume that (b) is supposed to be "it doesn't get GCd"?
<gchristensen> yep
<LnL> non linux builds can't use a .check bindmount so they use hash rewriting, in which case the check output is a completely different path
<gchristensen> interesting
<LnL> I think that path could be registered as a valid output along with an indirect result-checked root
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