<ixxie>
hl - have you used Nix extensively in Linux or Mac?
<hl>
Only used NixOS.
<ixxie>
I have the problem that because I only used NixOS I find it hard to write a lot of details about Nix without accidently mixing NixOS concepts into it
<hl>
Yeah.
<ixxie>
hl - would you like to help me complete the NixOS article?
<hl>
Hmm, I'll look at refactoring it.
<hl>
You know, I'd describe Nix as a build system more than a package manager.
<ixxie>
hl: as in, build system is more general than package manager?
<ixxie>
hl: its both I think
<hl>
Yeah. But the beauty of it is it actually eliminates the need for package management. Every nixos-rebuild switch is a full system rebuild, it just happens that enough is cached that that's a viable way to model an OS.
<ixxie>
hl: I would like to keep some kind of consistancy in the structure across the different Ecosystem article
<ixxie>
I am open to criticism and change in this regard, but I am hoping that whatever we decide will maintained consistently between the articles
<hl>
I'm not changing the structure of it, just doing a proofreading pass.
<ixxie>
as for the 'build system' - I am open to adding it but since the official documentation describes Nix as a package manager first, we should probably use that as a first description
<ixxie>
hl: oh, I understood refactoring as restructuring ^^
<ixxie>
one question I have is whether the Nix store should be described in the NixOS article so extensively
<ixxie>
I am considering moving that paragraph to the Nix article
<makefu>
what will be our policy regarding copy-pasting text from the official manuals for the overview articles?
<fadenb>
makefu: I believe we should try to avoid duplicating content
<fadenb>
but if it helps to make a point it is probably OK
<makefu>
however an article with only a single link is quite weird
<ixxie>
One of the best things about *not* duplicating content (and actually, also about not being official) will be that we can qualify as a secondary source for the purpose of Wikipedia citations
<ixxie>
at the moment, the Wikipedia articles about Nix related stuff have a lack of good secondary and tertiary sources
<ixxie>
while I want to see 'Development' and 'History' sections in these articles, perhaps we can remove them since I don't think we can make them happen today
<ixxie>
hyper_ch: awesome idea, feel free to pursue it; maybe infinisil will grant you permision to use it even (or better - they could move it into the wiki themselves so correct credit goes into the history)
<hyper_ch>
I like your suggestion the best, since it involves least effort for me ;)
<fadenb>
I believe I found the culprit of the 404 errors. I currently use a `location ~* .(jpg|jpeg|png|.....)$` match in the nginx configI have to exclude wiki pages somehow
<makefu>
i think for now it is good, lets continue with more urgent matters :D
<hl>
You know the NixOS logo is pretty good... it's a snowflake, it's a lambda, it's frosty, giving the sense of being frozen, as in immutable... and it's got a hexagon in the middle. Hexagons are always good.
<makefu>
yes, it is really fantastic
<makefu>
and it is round
<makefu>
but not 100% round
<makefu>
hl: could you quickly check the internals part of NixOS
<makefu>
if it is okay so far i'd remove the banner
<joepie91>
nothing is 100% round, everything is just varying granularities of regular polygons :D
<fadenb>
wiki-done: webserver config: fix https://nixos.wiki/wiki/File: links (currently resulting in 404 instead of delivering the file)
<Reaktor|krebs>
thank you for resolving todo: webserver config: fix https://nixos.wiki/wiki/File: links (currently resulting in 404 instead of delivering the file)
<hl>
An expression is anything, (2, 2+2), a function is x: 42, etc.
<hl>
A file doesn't actually have to be a function, though the 'import' expression is usually used that way in Nixpkgs
<hl>
You could put '42' in a file and import it
<hl>
just a fragment, yes? [[Foo#a]]
<hl>
German-style?
<hl>
It's proper in English to use title case (This Is Title Case) for titles, but I'm not that fond of it and usually use normal capitalisation for section headings.
<ixxie>
fadenb: about the anti-spam captcha-for-external-links thingy - is there a way to specify a whitelist? 90% of our links are to nixos.org and wikipedia I think
<fadenb>
I believe this can be done with wgCaptchaWhitelist setting
<fadenb>
I'll look into it
<ixxie>
cheers
<samueldr>
hi, woke up late, I'll see what I'll be able to do. There's been an unexpected death in my close family, earlier this week, if I can, I'll put my mind into it later, sorry to be a party-pooper.
<fadenb>
samueldr: my condolences. Take all the time you need.
<samueldr>
fadenb: while checking captcha stuff, you talked earlier, like a month or two ago, about wikipedia user groups, which would completely bypass the captcha
<ixxie>
samueldr: my condolences as well; don't push it! Only join in if it makes you feel better
<fadenb>
Yep, currently researching how to implement this. I was thinking of a "contributer" group
<samueldr>
yeah, I won't push myself, only wanted y'all to know
<samueldr>
at the same time, could you add the patrolling authorization (?) to the group?
<fadenb>
ixxie: this last edit should (in theory) achieve exactly what you asked for. Let me know if it helps while I proceed preparing additional user groups
<samueldr>
iirc, as an admin, you have an option to set the "file type" of a wiki page, don't know if there is one like raw text, making that <pre> hack useless
<samueldr>
or redundant, really
<fadenb>
I believe we do not need to worry about this as this is a page a normal user will never encounter
<nixoswikibot>
[[Special:Log/rights]] rights * Fadenb * changed group membership for User:Makefu from (none) to trustee
<nixoswikibot>
[[Special:Log/rights]] rights * Fadenb * changed group membership for User:Mic92 from (none) to trustee
<nixoswikibot>
[[Special:Log/rights]] rights * Fadenb * changed group membership for User:Ixxie from (none) to trustee
<nixoswikibot>
[[Special:Log/rights]] rights * Fadenb * changed group membership for User:Samueldr from (none) to trustee
<samueldr>
looks good, thanks a bunch
<hyper_ch>
so many edits on the wiki....
<ixxie>
hyper_ch: well it is Wiki Hackathon day xD
<hyper_ch>
ixxie: oh really? didn't notice all your messags in #nixos ;)
<hyper_ch>
infinisil still hasn't shown a sign of life
<ixxie>
hyper_ch: I only posted twice
<hyper_ch>
(in the last hour?)
<ixxie>
hyper_ch: all day
<hyper_ch>
really?
<ixxie>
yeah
<hyper_ch>
wow, it felt like more often :)
<ixxie>
I should have done it more often
<hyper_ch>
you should have
<hyper_ch>
all those people who joined after you posted the 2nd time are still clueless about it
<hyper_ch>
it's unfair to them to not having posted it more often
<ixxie>
hold on
<ixxie>
there we go
<ixxie>
so
<ixxie>
I am working on the Nix article now
<hyper_ch>
:)
<ixxie>
I have a problem
<hyper_ch>
s/problem/challenge/
<Reaktor|krebs>
hyper_ch meant: :)
<hyper_ch>
oh, there's a sed bot? sweet
<hyper_ch>
s/sweet/awesome/
<Reaktor|krebs>
hyper_ch meant: oh, there's a sed bot? awesome
<samueldr>
iirc only does word swap
<hyper_ch>
and it works
<samueldr>
s/./!/
<Reaktor|krebs>
samueldr meant: !irc only does word swap
<samueldr>
or not
<samueldr>
s/./!/g
<Reaktor|krebs>
samueldr meant: !!!!!!
<hyper_ch>
looks like sed
<samueldr>
oh, I remember the catch, the separators are / only
<ixxie>
so the thing is, we finished the NixOS article, and it mentions Nix channels as well as nix-env; I am working on the Nix Package Manager article now and I felt a lot of stuff should move there; I already moved nix-env stuff there and now I am struggling to see where channels should be.
<ixxie>
s/[Nn]{1}ix/Awesome/g
<Reaktor|krebs>
ixxie meant: so the thing is, we finished the NixOS article, and it mentions Nix channels as well as nix-env; I am working on the Nix Package Manager article now and I felt a lot of stuff should move there; I already moved nix-env stuff there and now I am struggling to see where channels should be.
<ixxie>
s/[Nn]ix/Awesome/g
<Reaktor|krebs>
ixxie meant: so the thing is, we finished the AwesomeOS article, and it mentions Awesome channels as well as Awesome-env; I am working on the Awesome Package Manager article now and I felt a lot of stuff should move there; I already moved Awesome-env stuff there and now I am struggling to see where channels should be.
<ixxie>
anyway
<ixxie>
it seems like some of this stuff should replicated in part
<infinisil>
hyper_ch: I am alive :D
<hyper_ch>
infinisil: how about adding your kexec guide to the nixos wiki and pretty it up a bit? :)
<infinisil>
Been saying I'd do that for a while eh
<hyper_ch>
now it's the perfect weekend for doing so
<infinisil>
I have a serious problem with my lazyness
<hyper_ch>
nix is a lazy language but that doesn't mean you can also be lazy
<infinisil>
Heh
<hyper_ch>
wow, the two wiki articles where I have contributed, got heavily reworked
* hyper_ch
feels like he did everything wrong on the wiki and only caused more work for others... hence hyper_ch thinks that infinisil needs to put the kexec guide onto the wiki *smile*
<ixxie>
hyper_ch: writing is rewriting, they say; if I write anything myself, I end up rewriting it at least five times, so don't take it personally.
<hyper_ch>
ixxie: I actually wanted to encourage infinisil to do the work instead of me ;)
<ixxie>
hyper_ch: also we often move stuff between articles, so it could be stuff could be elsewhere
<infinisil>
Okay, how do i create a new page
<ixxie>
search for it
<ixxie>
it will give you the option to create what is not there
<ixxie>
still kinda rough, but the Nix article is now good enough to be no longer incomplete
<ixxie>
I still would like some diagrams like the ones in the manual
<ixxie>
samueldr, hl - I am thinking that in a few weeks, we can do a session to design a standard for diagrams in the wiki so that we can have a uniform visual style for them between articles
<hl>
Sure.
<samueldr>
visual standards, but possibly, standard tooling
<samueldr>
it's pretty much a 1:1 NixOS on ARM section since as of right now all popular SBCs are ARM
<makefu>
yeah, true
<makefu>
there not much other embedded devices we support
<samueldr>
yet!
<ixxie>
samueldr: do it! Looks great
<makefu>
i really hope that someday the nix build system replaces the clusterfuck that is openwrt
<infinisil>
makefu: Is it that bad?
<makefu>
at least for me it is
<makefu>
you never really know when it builds something anew when you change files
<samueldr>
never played much with it, neither with buildroot, are both pretty much as bad?
<makefu>
at least for newcomers the whole ecosystem is very confusing and it is not straight forward to understand when things happen and if so, why
<ixxie>
makefu: I did some stuff with the Nix article and its now finished-enough that I removed the stub header
<makefu>
fantastic
<ixxie>
makefu: but I moved/copies some stuff from NixOS
<ixxie>
makefu: specifically, nix-env stuff is moved and channels is copied, and I think the copy is too exact and we should think about how to reduce that duplication
<ixxie>
makefu: I would love your opinion
<makefu>
i will check it out
<makefu>
regarding the channels, i was thinking the same when i saw it in the nixos article
<ixxie>
makefu: with nix-env I left something behind when I moved it, I figured its okay to reference Nix almost completely because nix-env isn't use much in NixOS (or at least, in my opinion, it shouldn't be encouraged)
<ixxie>
but which channels its less obvious how to make the split
<makefu>
maybe describe what is important for nixos (that is, stable channel means you will probably not break your system every week)
<ixxie>
for example, I would be prone to thinking the channel command table should be duplicated between the articles
<makefu>
maybe we could pull the information out to an article about "working with channels"
<makefu>
this article could also contain info about how you could avoid channel usage or build your own channel
<ixxie>
makefu: that is a neat idea; then the NixOS and Nix articles would only have the command table in the #usage section, and Nix would additionally have a #channels section in #internals to explain the backend of channels
<makefu>
i will try to create a bit of text about nixpkgs, what it contains and how it fits into the ecosystem
<samueldr>
oh well, looks like my container setup is broken ixxie, I just set it up on my new computer and it doesn't work... (mostly my own fault I'm pretty sure)
<ixxie>
makefu: okay, done; I think it would help to somehow clarify why Nix users seeking stability are using a channel called nixos-17.09; but then again a detailed breakdown of the exact difference between the channels needs to be added to the channel article probably.
<makefu>
ixxie: mhhh, maybe we keep the nixos-rebuild switch --rollback and put the nix-env stuff into the nix article
<ixxie>
from the Nix manual: "nix-channel uses a nix-env profile to keep track of previous versions of the subscribed channels. Every time you run nix-channel --update, a new channel generation (that is, a symlink to the channel Nix expressions in the Nix store) is created. This enables nix-channel --rollback to revert to previous versions."
<ixxie>
this is so trippy somehow
<ixxie>
I actually once noticed a channel upgrade broke my NixOS generation rollbackability, but apparently I could have just rolled back the channel
<ixxie>
this goes into the Nixception category, along with the 'install Nix with Nix'
<ixxie>
makefu: sounds good; I think I will have to continue tomorrow as its getting late
<makefu>
ixxie: sounds great. i think we finished alot of stuff today!
<ixxie>
makefu: I can promise to finish off the last details of the NixOS and Nix articles, and I will also work on the Resource articles the coming week
<ixxie>
maybe you could continue with the Nix Language and maybe also Nixpkgs?
<makefu>
when we have the big overview articles finished then i think we are almost able to prepare the RFC
<makefu>
yes exactly
<makefu>
i will continue with the nix language and nixpkgs
<ixxie>
We need to convince someone to help with NixOps and Hydra; Domen would be perfect but he is anti-wiki
<ixxie>
gchristiansen might wanna help; I think he could with NixOps but I am not sure about Hydra....
<ixxie>
cool
<makefu>
or i will have to try to set up hydra myself to get some insight :D
<ixxie>
cool!
<ixxie>
hey fadenb - what happened to my sidebar superpower xD
<ixxie>
also someone reshuffled some things I think?
<samueldr>
probably from putting you in trustee group, if mediawiki does not support multiple group for users
<ixxie>
I made a grid between resource type and ecosystem component, and the hope is that over the next year or so we could fill in all of these
<ixxie>
It made me think, how nice would it be to regularize the names: NixCore (=Nix), NixOS, NixLang (=Nix Language), NixPkgs, NixOps, NixFarm (=Hydra)
<ixxie>
samueldr: I had one new template wish - there are lots of inline links to the manuals in the wiki, it would be cool if instead of the lock, there would be a NixOS snowflake and a custom Manual/Section linker thingy
<joepie91>
so maybe we should use "Pluto" for the Nix language, since that's what Nix and Hydra revolve all around :D
<samueldr>
definitely
<ixxie>
samueldr: so all of this is Way Out There
<ixxie>
samueldr: also, a lock somehow doesn't mean 'external link' to me... but then I guess its hard to say what *would*
<samueldr>
yeah, that's mediawiki stuff
<samueldr>
years ago, https links still weren't the norm
<ixxie>
joepie91: but that will all remove from the original meaning of Nix
<samueldr>
that's why they decided on the lock
<ixxie>
ah
<samueldr>
yeah, nix itself wasn't named for the moon, that was a coincidence iirc
<joepie91>
ixxie: the typical 'external link' icon is a square with an arrow starting within out and going outwards of it
<nixoswikibot>
[[NixOS Installation Guide/Unetbootin]] N https://nixos.wiki/index.php?oldid=1387&rcid=1390 * Samueldr * (+1540) Moves unetbootin installation media from the guide to a standalone page.
<nixoswikibot>
[[Install NixOS on a Server With a Different Filesystem]] !N https://nixos.wiki/index.php?oldid=1389&rcid=1392 * Infinisil * (+5690) Created page with "Usually when installing NixOS, you boot from an external USB device containing the installer, which makes it easy to change the underlying filesystem. On a remote server howev..."
<infinisil>
Got a first polished up version done :D hyper_ch
<samueldr>
infinisil: newly authored text or adaptation from existing documentation?