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<aterius> Hmm, for some reason pkgs.nixUnstable is still giving me nix 3.7
<aterius> * Hmm, for some reason pkgs.nixUnstable is still giving me nix 2.3.7 vi
<aterius> * Hmm, for some reason pkgs.nixUnstable is still giving me nix 2.3.7, but if I use nixpkgs.nixUnstable via nix-shell I get the 3.0 preview
<aterius> Ah nevermind, seems to be working now
<thefloweringash> hey LnL, can I bug you about the state of stdenv on big sur?
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<LnL> thefloweringash: sure
<thefloweringash> alright, so, big sur is getting closer and the dylib cache change means that the current stdenv can't link (#91748)
<{^_^}> https://github.com/NixOS/nixpkgs/issues/91748 (by sycured, 10 weeks ago, open): impossible to link (ld / clang) liboping on macOS Big Sur 11 Beta
<thefloweringash> I think the best solution is to replace the proxy libSystem dylib with a tapi representation of libSystem
<thefloweringash> I've made a few PRs to try to move in that direction
<thefloweringash> but they seem a bit stalled. can I get you to look at #93912, and also confirm that I'm heading in the right direction?
<{^_^}> https://github.com/NixOS/nixpkgs/pull/93912 (by thefloweringash, 6 weeks ago, open): stdenv/darwin: enable tapi support in cctools
<thefloweringash> sorry if I'm a bit insistent, I just would really like to have stdenv ready for when big sur suddenly appears
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<LnL> oh mb, assumed you where offline
<LnL> thefloweringash: my understanding of how linking like that works but yeah what we do know won't work without the dylib
<LnL> as for the pr I'm not sure if there's much value in integrating changes until there's something basic that works
<thefloweringash> the plan was to get a bootstrap tools linker with tbd support, and then swap out libSystem
<thefloweringash> I could probably make a more conservative version that does it as part of the stdenv bootstrap, would have to try it and see, but it might land up with some duplication of Libsystem
<LnL> isn't it easier to experiment on a branch?
<LnL> the bootstrap tools are going to need more changes and then we don't have to worry as much about breaking stuff
<thefloweringash> I have done some testing of the integrated changes on big sur and it does link `hello` at least
<LnL> oh?
<LnL> isn't libsystem still borked
<thefloweringash> for the purposes of testing, I hacked in the libsystem.tbd from an apple sdk
<thefloweringash> unfortunately my big sur testing options right now are limited, but IIRC the head of this branch https://github.com/thefloweringash/nixpkgs/commits/new-bootstrap-tools
<thefloweringash> (I've only got access to a dtk. I'll sort out a big sur x86_64 machine in a few days)
<thefloweringash> I figured that it was best to send off the PRs that have to go through staging early, so they have a chance to filter through
<thefloweringash> adding libtapi is one stdenv rebuild, and updating the bootstrap tools would be another
<thefloweringash> it should be possible to use the existing bootstrap tools just with a little extra care in the stdenv bootstrapping. if that's a more compelling PR to get merged I'm certainly happy to work on that
<thefloweringash> as for an actual tbd. I'm hoping to run `tapi stubify` on a 10.12 VM, (still wip). Is that something we can reasonably include directly in nixpkgs?
<LnL> hmm ok, I should take a proper look at this again
<thefloweringash> it would be very much appreciated :-)
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<abathur> thefloweringash most of this discussion is over my head or out of my wheelhouse but FWIW I got a 2018 MBA up on a clean install of big sur in the past few days and am picking at Nix installer issues, so if you have any simple "does XYZ" work sorts of questions...; one caveat is that the xcode CLI tools are refusing to install (unavailable) for me
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<abathur> LnL I was content to let it go when you said it yesterday, but I keep catching my mind wondering what you have in mind when you say "a full on declarative installer project"
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<LnL> thefloweringash: I've thought about moving stuff like the symbol list out of nixpkgs before, there's no real value having it in the repo IMHO
<LnL> it also doesn't really have anything to do with nix directly, having a repo with that metadata could be useful for other things
<LnL> we could potentially even use it for all the frameworks
<LnL> as for libSystem, if this works I think we can indeed just replace our shim build which is easier than I was expecting
<LnL> a good test would be to try and build something that links against a symbol that you removed from the tbd but that's actually present in the dylib
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<LnL> I should check why my builder died, that one is still running 10.12.x
<LnL> abathur: the current installer follows the traditional mutable model, plan + apply like nixos generally makes things easier once conditionals and stuff like that get involved
<LnL> also updating and reconfiguring an existing installation are valid usecases that are not covered at all
<abathur> LnL k; I imagined as much, but started to wonder (as I thought about some of the approaches I can imagine in shell) if you had something more specific in mind wrt to what the implementation would look like
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<LnL> that's the other thing I feel bad about putting too much weird stuf in the nix repo, something separate/dedicated is more flexible including the language
<LnL> there are a bunch of option that can still compile down to a static binary
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<abathur> it looks like there are technically at least 2 bugs in the logic for whether the installer tells someone to run --darwin-use-unencrypted-nix-store-volume
<abathur> buuuut, the stars probably align, and I'm not sure anyone actually falls through the cracks? :)
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