<{^_^}>
#97383 (by cole-h, 1 day ago, open): "/dev/fd/62: No such file or directory" in init script on nixos-unstable(-small)
<zeta_0>
clever: well, thanks for the help, i'm going to head out, i'll let you guys no if i got ubuntu on virtualbox working correctly.
<zeta_0>
clever++
<{^_^}>
clever's karma got increased to 505
<worldofpeace>
cole-h: marked and added motivation
<worldofpeace>
though it does need someone to actually pick up the issue
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<ldlework>
Is there a way to see the various times that nix-unstable was updated?
<cole-h>
worldofpeace++ Cheers, thanks. The hardest part about diagnosing it is the fact that it requires a reboot :P And since I'm on flakes (which doesn't support build-vm)...
<{^_^}>
worldofpeace's karma got increased to 186
<worldofpeace>
flakes doesn't support build-vm?
<cole-h>
ldlework: Do you mean nix-unstable as in nixos-unstable, or nixUnstable?
<growpotkin>
Hey I've got some wonkiness going on with a oneshot service I wrote. I've done a ton but I probably just did something stupid. It's an sh script with the ol '#! /usr/bin/env sh' shebang line at the top. It's kicking back "/usr/bin/env: 'sh': No such file or directory", I can swap it for "/bin/sh" and it'll run but it has no path which is pretty worthless.
<growpotkin>
I tried the simples "echo hi; exit 0;" script just to sanity check that the actual script isn't the one generating the message.
<growpotkin>
simplest**
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<notgne2>
no path?
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<{^_^}>
[nixpkgs] @worldofpeace merged pull request #93764 → nixos/displayManager: add XDG_SESSION_ID to systemd user environment → https://git.io/JJ4m9
<{^_^}>
[nixpkgs] @worldofpeace pushed 2 commits to master: https://git.io/JUcko
<{^_^}>
[nixpkgs] @worldofpeace pushed 2 commits to release-20.09: https://git.io/JUckP
<{^_^}>
[nixos-homepage] @samueldr pushed 3 commits to feature/2020-r/navigation-fixups: https://git.io/JUck1
<growpotkin>
When a script is run as a service through `/bin/sh' it's not in a nix-profile so I don't have access to any other programs
<notgne2>
I think that's just the intentional overall functionality of services, they won't inherit stuff from the rest of your system so as to not create impurities
<samueldr>
exactly, it's not airtight, but you have to declare the desired environment for the service
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<growpotkin>
Yeah I understand why it behaves that way. I just have a shell script that I always run right after I start up, I want to have it run automatically instead.
<growpotkin>
This is probably just me misunderstanding systemd lol. I could probably just dump the script into my nix config and swap the program names with their store paths and I bet it would run just fine.
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<toothbrush>
So i'm having trouble with Zsh completion. I've set programs.zsh.enable = true;, and completion of `nixos-option` fires, but gives an error "Eval failed, can't complete". I suspect this is in the `_nixos-option` completion function, trying to do `evalModules ...`. Does anyone have pointers?
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<toothbrush>
I've chased it a bit more, the error is thrown in the `_nix_attr_paths` Zsh function, which calls `_nix_eval_stdin` which _appears_ to return empty...
<fzakaria>
right and etc/static is itself a symlink farm
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<dramforever>
yup
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<growpotkin>
Okay I finally got the systemd script to work. I had to go in and replace every program name in the script with "${pkgs.coreutils}/bin/sleep" ... which was super tedious; but at least it works. Does anyone know a better way to write a systemd user script that has access to that users profile?
<growpotkin>
I just found the emacs service definition and I feel like kind of an idiot now lol. '${pkgs.bash}/bin/bash -c 'source ${config.system.build.setEnvironment}; exec /path/to/my/script' would have worked
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<growpotkin>
yeah even in home manager user systemd ExecStart commands do not adopt the user's profile
<hyper_ch>
is there a easy way to make some kind of loop in the configuration.nix ? I'd like to setup several systemd watchfolders and if I just could iterate over a list that would be helpful
<yisraeldov>
Hello, is there some sort of guided installer other than what is on the documentation?
<hyper_ch>
not really
<hyper_ch>
what do you need help with?
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<yisraeldov>
"hyper_ch" (https://matrix.to/#/@freenode_hyper_ch:matrix.org) nothing in particular. Just was wondering.
<yisraeldov>
What about btrfs? I didn't see anything in the documentation.
<simpson>
The documentation *is* the guide. Gentoo's another common distro that does this.
<dramforever>
Arch being another
<hyper_ch>
why btrfs instead of zfs?
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<simpson>
btrfs is Just Another Filesystem, I think, from our perspective. Not sure though.
<dramforever>
I think btrfs is simpler, so that's my personal reason for why I picked it
<hyper_ch>
simpler? how so?
<yisraeldov>
"hyper_ch" (https://matrix.to/#/@freenode_hyper_ch:matrix.org) I am already using btrfs, and have my home is in a subvolume. Wanted to try Nixos and keep my existing home.
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<{^_^}>
[nixpkgs] @jonascarpay opened pull request #97507 → gambatte: add alsa dependency and version bump → https://git.io/JUcsk
<dramforever>
If you're new, one option you might not be familiar with: Maybe consider trying only Nix the package manager? You can do that on other distros too.
<yisraeldov>
<dramforever "If you're new, one option you mi"> Yes, that I know. I wanted to see how good the hardware support was, and how hard it would be to get a full system.
<simpson>
Hardware support is like on any other Linux distro, including a choice of whether to use unfree software. NixOS is largely just systemd and Linux being managed by Nix.
<{^_^}>
[nixpkgs] @OPNA2608 opened pull request #97508 → [20.09] palemoon: Add libpulseaudio to wrapper → https://git.io/JUcsB
<dramforever>
Yeah, most Linux-based stuff have similar situations I think
<dramforever>
Free stuff, nonfree stuff
<dramforever>
As of 'how hard it would be to get a full system', the main difficulty would probably be the learning curve
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<yisraeldov>
Thanks.
<dramforever>
The thing that NixOS does beyond 'just Nix' is that the system configuration is written in the Nix language and built as a derivation
<yisraeldov>
Is there a single page or ebook format for pills?
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<yisraeldov>
I saw an issue on how to build it but you need to use nix, and I want to read pills so I can understand how to use nix.
<dramforever>
You don't need to read pills to use Nix
<yisraeldov>
I know I don't need to, but I find it easier to read than the docs.
<dramforever>
Oh really
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<yisraeldov>
OK, maybe I didn't invest enough time in the docs. Are they available as ebook or single file?
<dramforever>
The three are all single page, if that's what you're asking
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<dramforever>
I think they are going to switch it to the same thing Rust uses, but I hope they keep a version like this (PDF version or something) somewhere
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<yisraeldov>
👍
<dramforever>
yisraeldov: If you really like implementation details then the nixpkgs sources is going to be a gold mine
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<Ke>
or do people generally believe nixos users are expected to assume this?
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<Ke>
also is it expected that my custom project pkgs.rustPlatform.buildRustPackage cargoSha256 changes on nixos-20.09 upgrade, if the lockfile is the same?
<Ke>
I guess rustc and cargo get updated and maybe that's enough?
<dminuoso>
hyper_ch: That sounds a bit confused. What are you trying to do?
<hyper_ch>
dminuoso: I have a bunch of users that I want to create watchfolders for (systemd.path and systemd.services)
<hyper_ch>
instead of writing those few lines of configs 100 times over, I'd just like to give the list of usernames to the function that then creates it
<hyper_ch>
you have users a, b, c, d, e ..... and they all need systemd.path files created
<hyper_ch>
all the same, except for the username
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<hyper_ch>
someone told me map can do it but I fail to see how
<drag0nius>
i'm looking for a simple way to conveniently manage 3 nixos nodes. I'm new to the whole nix thing and want to have simple experiments environment (trying to get k3s running on Raspberry Pi) with a good deal of experience with Ansible. What would be the advantage of using NixOps/Disnix instead of Ansible for syncing configs and updating machines?
<makefu>
drag0nius: maybe you can start with creating a shared repository of all your hosts' configuration. copy over the config and run nixos-rebuild and you have something which is already very close to what you are looking for
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<makefu>
of course, if you want to try NixOPS then go ahead :)
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<hyper_ch>
I heard nixops is great for deploying machines... but never used it
<lucus16>
drag0nius: I prefer having all configuration on one deploy machine and running nixos-rebuild --target-host from there
<makefu>
lucus16: ah yes, there is --target-host now, however for different platforms (aarch64, x64) there may be some issues on the way
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<lucus16>
hmm, maybe those can be resolved by using a --build-host matching the target architecture?
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<srk>
or with cross-compilation
<hyper_ch>
makefu: do you have a suggestion on how I can loop through a list of users and apply the same bit of configuration nix to them?
<drag0nius>
makefu: i already have a simple bash script getting the same config onto all nodes, but now i need to differ configuration across nodes (masters and workers)
<hyper_ch>
the example in the manual isn't really helpful: map (x: "foo" + x) [ "bar" "bla" "abc" ]
<makefu>
s/slave/sub/
<lucus16>
siraben: Compare it to darwin 20.03 and look at newly/still failing jobs?
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<makefu>
hyper_ch: if you have users.users and you want to have a list of users with the same config then you will need an attrset at the end
<siraben>
lucus16: ok i'll try that
<hyper_ch>
no, those are not users.users.... they jus access via sambe authenticated by ip through wireguard... not actual system users
<hyper_ch>
I want to setup watchfolders for them... if new scan arrives -> ocr -> move to their folder
<makefu>
how does the nix config for a single user look like?
<drag0nius>
makefu: yeah i know i can include, but now i need to convenient single-command deployment to everywhere
<hyper_ch>
makefu: what do you mean?
<makefu>
hyper_ch: how does your stuff currently looks like, seems like am not totally understanding what you want to achieve
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<makefu>
drag0nius: one way would be to copy your repo to each host and in a second step copy the host-specific config to /etc/nixos/configuration.nix (or set NIX_PATH=...:nixos-configuration=/path/to/hostconfig.nix )
<{^_^}>
[nixpkgs] @Luflosi opened pull request #97525 → j: fix build on darwin → https://git.io/JUcRP
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<hyper_ch>
lucus16: I think now I understand it
<lucus16>
:)
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<yurb>
How to do a `nixos-rebuild build-vm` with a different `configuration.nix`? I would like to build a vm with a normal DE to demo some stuff and not scare people with sway:)
<dutchie>
(at least that's what I've used for rebuild, not sure if it works with build-vm)
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<siraben>
Even with hardeningDisable = [ "format" ];, I still get gcc errors about "error: format string is not a string literal (potentially insecure)", what's happening?
<siraben>
The package is knightos-mkrom on darwin
<siraben>
hardeningDisable = [ "all" ] or "fortify" doesn't seem to work as well
<hyper_ch>
lucus16: it does not like it error: undefined variable 'genAttrs' at /etc/nixos/configuration.nix:438:21
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<alexbakker>
hi, I tried upgrading to the 20.09 alpha but got the following error while rebuilding: "Loading NSS modules from system.nssModules (/nix/store/kmlzasz1lbkigpirk4vwyg14g206wq18-systemd-246/lib), requires services.nscd.enable being set to true."
<lucus16>
hyper_ch: It's in pkgs.lib.genAttrs
<alexbakker>
I currently have it disabled and use systemd-networkd
<{^_^}>
[nixpkgs] @ehmry pushed to master « firefox: set build timeout at eight hours »: https://git.io/JUc0k
<hyper_ch>
lucus16: ah, using lib.genAttrs works.... but I'm facing a different challenge now
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<lucus16>
alexbakker: I think I ran into that as well, iirc you can either enable nscd but leave its DNS part disabled or you can system.nssModules = lib.mkForce [];
<hyper_ch>
lucus16: if I may ask one more thing: the lib.genAttrs [ "...." "...." "..." ] ---> could I provide a predfined list there also?
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<lucus16>
hyper_ch: genAttrs is a function that accepts a list and then a function, there's no reason the list must be a literal instead of one you've already defined
<hyper_ch>
nice :)
<{^_^}>
[nixpkgs] @vbgl opened pull request #97528 → aegisub: fix build with make 4.3 → https://git.io/JUc0H
<hyper_ch>
lucus16: currently there's 11 people in the list... also those 11 get vpn connections with wireguard etc..... so I hvae a seperate secrets.nix that is imported on top of the configuration nix and in that secrets.nix I have all the individual data setup.... so I can make the list there and then just use it
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<lucus16>
hyper_ch: If you define those systemd.services in separate files you won't need to merge them manually
<{^_^}>
[nixpkgs] @siriobalmelli opened pull request #97529 → python3Packages.google_resumable_media: v0.7.1 -> v1.0.0, python3Packages.google_crc32c: init at v1.0.0 → https://git.io/JUc0Q
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<hyper_ch>
hmmmm..... so far I do like to have all in one config :)
<hyper_ch>
except for the secrets parts
<lucus16>
hyper_ch: You are aware secrets in your configuration are publicly readable in your /nix/store ?
<hyper_ch>
some yes, some no.... secrets is the wrong name for the file... it also contains infos like server hostname, ip, and other stuff
<yurb>
um, another `nixos-rebuild build-vm` question - I can't find where to specify the memory in the VM (by default it's 384M, plasma can't run with that)
<hyper_ch>
lucus16: is there also a way to pass key/value pairs instead of just values?
<lucus16>
hyper_ch: In this case you probably want the builtin listToAttrs which has some uses in that file
<lucus16>
hyper_ch: Look in the comments, they each have trivial examples
<hyper_ch>
which comments?
<lucus16>
hyper_ch: The stuff between /* ... */
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<hyper_ch>
that's what I meant with too abstract
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<lucus16>
hyper_ch: I understand the feeling but learning the Nix language, you will need to get through that at some point. Just choose one of the map functions, try the example in `nix repl` and then play around with it, you'll get the hang of it
<lucus16>
And remember to :a (import <nixpkgs> {}).lib
<hyper_ch>
lucus16: I've been trying for years... there's some things thta I just can't get.. e.g. in php I never really got the whole OOP thing I understand the theory but then not how to actually use it or make use of it
<hyper_ch>
same with the nix language
<rihards>
hi, is there a way to apply patches in a derivation for a Python package where the source is a Pthon wheel (fetched from pypi)? if i add patches the build fails. when i attempt to build it with nix-build -K, all i see in the /tmp build dir is the wheel file, and env-vars
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<{^_^}>
[nixos-org-configurations] @edolstra pushed 2 commits to master: https://git.io/JUcE1
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<rihards>
i'm not too familiar with what goes on behind the scenes when installing a .whl file
<lucus16>
hyper_ch: All programming is just iterative trying. You need to start with the parts you understand and then add parts you don't understand one by one and experiment.
<NobbZ[m]>
How can I temporarily disable a remote builder? It is only reachable through a VPN, and that VPN is currently very slow, fetching the built artifact with less than 1kBit/s.
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<ScottHDev>
Hello, I trid this configuration https://hastebin.com/kejubosore to have grub2 with efi instead of systemd. Tried applying it with nixos-rebuild --install-bootloader switch but still using systemd-boot ?
<AmandaC>
damjan: it seems to work by uisng nixos' derevation-of-links genertion utilities to generate a derevatino with a generated config.php and the tt-rss package mashed together
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<damjan>
AmandaC: thanks. let me read about what all that means first :)
<AmandaC>
oh wait, no, it links everything from the tt-rss derevation into the genrated user's home dir
<AmandaC>
but overall: no. Derevations are designed to be immutable, so what you'd be doing is creating anaother derevation with symlinks to the original derevation for all the files
<damjan>
mhm. thanks.
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<damjan>
I'll make my own fork
<{^_^}>
[nixops] @grahamc merged pull request #1388 → ResourceState.definition_type: introduce for run-time accessible definition type validation → https://git.io/JJlEI
<fgaz>
ryantm: oh really? that's great! It wasn't mentioned in the readme so I didn't bother to add one before
<fgaz>
well, I know what to do now
<karantan>
anyone knows how to enable php-memcached? I tried installing the package and then enable it in the `services.phpfpm.pools.<name>.phpOptions` options by adding "extension = memcached.so" but it's not working.
<ryantm>
I only recently added it and I'm not sure it works really well.
<karantan>
phpinfo() doesn't show memcached to be enabled
<{^_^}>
[nixpkgs] @worldofpeace pushed 2 commits to release-20.03: https://git.io/JUcKk
<evanjs>
fgaz: automate which thing?
<__monty__>
Since undmg is segfaulting for me I'm trying to switch to the default unpackPhase, which apparently is able to handle dmg images. However this dmg contains two items and I get an error about the unpacker producing multiple directories. Can I specify a directory to unpack into?
<evanjs>
fgaz: OH yeah I did see your comment on ZHF and etc
<__monty__>
evanjs: sourceDir isn't turning anything up in the manual. sourceRoot doesn't seem appropriate. The item in question is a .app bundle so I don't want to cd into it.
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<evanjs>
root, that's what it was lol
<fgaz>
evanjs: the one on zhf is about broken builds
<evanjs>
__monty__: yeah, I wasn't sure how similar my recent issue was. Source dir is ${src}/development, which I was initially handling via `src = ./development` lol
<evanjs>
fgaz: right right
<evanjs>
_sort_ of in the same vein lol
<fgaz>
I wonder why at some point notifications were disabled.. they were so useful
<evanjs>
"What's the status of my stuff?" :P
<evanjs>
Yeah I've noticed a lot of subtle changes on the GH over the past year, not sure if intentional or if they were just side effects, though
<fgaz>
yeah, we should automate as much as possible!
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<evanjs>
e.g. At one point I was no longer able to add reviewers to my PRs, now I can do so again, etc...
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<{^_^}>
[nixpkgs] @worldofpeace merged pull request #97510 → bmap-tools: Don't test, as tests fail on hydra → https://git.io/JUcZs
<{^_^}>
[nixpkgs] @worldofpeace pushed 2 commits to master: https://git.io/JUcKQ
<evanjs>
fgaz: thanks again! Guess I didn't have enough caffeine, yet
<evanjs>
... or the Vyvanse hasn't kicked in... 🤪
<evanjs>
dangit jonringer isn't in IRC now lol (who to ping lol)
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<fgaz>
evanjs: np, we all make those mistakes, tat's why we have reviewers
<__monty__>
Seems I misunderstood your hint. sourceRoot = "." *did* work \o/
<{^_^}>
#1800 (by shlevy, 6 years ago, closed): Deprecate `loaOf`
<__monty__>
Weird that it only pops up now too.
<wpcarro>
I'd like to somehow use `nix-env -iA some-attribute` to symlink `~/.xsession` to `/nix/store/...`. I'm not using NixOS, and I'd like to do this purely with `nix-env` (i.e. avoid `home-manager` for the time being). Is this possible?
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<wpcarro>
The best I can come up with is `nix-build -A some-attribute && ./result` where `./result` is a script to do the symlinking. Is it possible to skip the `./result` step and rely entirely on `nix-env -iA some-attribute`?
<wpcarro>
I could see this working if for example `~/.xsession` always symlinked to a reference like `~/.nix-profile/some/path/xsession`. Is it possible to get a stable reference to `~/.nix-profile` for a configuration file? I know I can do it with a binary e.g.
<evanjs>
__monty__: infinisil weren't you working on something to replace loaOf?
<evanjs>
or what am I thinking of lol
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<{^_^}>
[nixpkgs] @worldofpeace pushed 3 commits to release-20.09: https://git.io/JUcPM
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<CMCDragonkai_>
I need to load a new kernel module from NixOS configuration.nix. I can do it from the CLI with `sudo modprobe v4l2loopback exclusive_caps=1` however how do I do it on the configuration.nix? I tried the boot.kernelModules setting but it didn't work.
<{^_^}>
[nixpkgs] @worldofpeace pushed 7 commits to master: https://git.io/JUcPp
<kolaente_>
This may be a noob question but I seem to cannot reproduce failed hydra builds with the "Reproduce" locally from the build site, I always get "value is a string while an integer was expected"
<siraben>
Is nix-store --optimise still useful? The documentation says that after multiple-outputs was merged, it has become less useful
<lordcirth>
siraben, when was multiple-outputs merged? I saved a lot of space on 20.03 with --optimize
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<clever>
siraben: multiple-outputs lets you GC the .h files while keeping the .so for example
<siraben>
"Run nix-store --optimise in case you really need some a bit of space. It is a lengthy operation, and after multiple-outputs PR landing, it became less useful. "
<kolaente_>
immae: So I just check out the release-20.09 branch and then run the nix expression?
<clever>
siraben: but --optimize lets you hardlink the duplicate .h files together, so your not paying for holding 2 copies
<immae>
kolaente_: yes
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<kolaente_>
immae: I see, thanks!
<immae>
that’s basically it (the steps I gave are if you want to be exactly same as in the hydra job)
<immae>
(which might be late compared to release-20.09)
<alexfmpe>
is there a way to increase the file descriptors limit for a nix-build?
<alexfmpe>
I tried customizing the phase to prepend a ulimit call, but get `ulimit : open files: cannot modify limit: Operation not permitted`
<alexfmpe>
I'm trying to package this rust crate containing a test that wants a file descriptor limit of half a million. It works fine inside nix-shell, but errors on nix-build
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<immae>
kloenk: you might want to check master too in case the fix is already in master but not in release-20.09 yet
<immae>
kolaente_: ^
<symphorien[m]>
you should probably just patch the test out
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<siraben>
clever: I see
<siraben>
339.68 MiB freed by hard-linking 27421 files
<galagora>
`note: currently hard linking saves 17592186044416.00 MiB`; `nix-store --optimize` seems very useful...
<lordcirth>
wat
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<clever>
> (17592186044416).toString(16)
<clever>
'100000000000'
<{^_^}>
value is an integer while a set was expected, at (string):323:1
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<clever>
galagora: that looks like an overflow error somewhere
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<{^_^}>
[nixpkgs] @Patryk27 opened pull request #97550 → lxd: Download Alpine image instead of relying on external source → https://git.io/JUcXb
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<galagora>
clever: There are a bunch of tmpfs's and I set `min-free` in my `nix.extraOptions`, so the amount of storage used probably "exceeds" the partition size
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<{^_^}>
[nixpkgs] @worldofpeace pushed 7 commits to release-20.09: https://git.io/JUcMW
<{^_^}>
[nixpkgs] @badmutex opened pull request #97555 → maintainers: updates for badi/badmutex → https://git.io/JUcM8
<arianvp>
Mic92: weren't you working on some crate2nix thing for nixpkgs?
<arianvp>
I saw https://github.com/kolloch/crate2nix but it only works when my source directory is local afaics; I want to do something similar to cabal2nix where I can do cabal2nix cabal://my-package-2.0 and it fetches it from hackage
<arianvp>
(I have a haskell project that depends on a rust project that's not in my source tree, and I want to generate a nix build plan for it)
<arianvp>
`cargo vendor` just doesnt seem deterministic
<Mic92>
Clearly a bug. You could try to diff.
<Mic92>
I am not aware of any current cargo vendor non-determinism
<arianvp>
i'll see if bumping to nixpkgs-unstable (The build was still on 19.09) has any impact on this
<Mic92>
Yes. we broke the checksum in the past
<Mic92>
so if you are updating nixpkgs it may brake.
<Mic92>
This was mentioned in the changelogs
<{^_^}>
[nixpkgs] @risicle opened pull request #97557 → terraform_0_12: add patch with fix for macos mojave when built with go 1.14 → https://git.io/JUcDv
<arianvp>
gotcha
<{^_^}>
[nixpkgs] @minijackson opened pull request #97558 → [20.09] Jellyfin state version 20.09 release notes backport → https://git.io/JUcDf
<Mic92>
*break
<Raito_Bezarius>
can we manipulate vrf from nixos modules?
<Raito_Bezarius>
ip vrf to be precise
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<Raito_Bezarius>
or ip rule at least
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<cransom>
Raito_Bezarius: there are no current modules (that I'm aware of) that do any complex routing/vrfs
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<Raito_Bezarius>
cransom: alright
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<Mic92>
Raito_Bezarius: networkd can do something on those lines if I can remember correctly
<Mic92>
andi-: is the guy adding it to systemd-networkd
<{^_^}>
[nixpkgs] @worldofpeace merged pull request #97558 → [20.09] Jellyfin state version 20.09 release notes backport → https://git.io/JUcDf
<{^_^}>
[nixpkgs] @worldofpeace pushed 2 commits to release-20.09: https://git.io/JUcDW
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<{^_^}>
[nixpkgs] @fgaz opened pull request #97559 → [20.09] maintainers/build: skip packages without meta → https://git.io/JUcDB
<{^_^}>
[nixpkgs] @makefu opened pull request #97560 → aresponses,pyhaversion: disable for py2 → https://git.io/JUcDg
<eliumir>
Sorry, I have a bad level in English and if I got the wrong irc channel. I have a problem on the installation of mate on nixos. The problem is when I install the "mate-control-center" package it installs fine but inside it I don't have any menu displayed. Can someone tell me if I have another package to install?
<{^_^}>
[nixpkgs] @shlevy pushed to master « matplotlib: Disable LTO on darwin. »: https://git.io/JUcD1
<{^_^}>
[nixpkgs] @worldofpeace merged pull request #97559 → [20.09] maintainers/build: skip packages without meta → https://git.io/JUcDB
<{^_^}>
[nixpkgs] @worldofpeace pushed 2 commits to release-20.09: https://git.io/JUcDS
<worldofpeace>
eliumir: I believe mate-control-center will only work properly if your current desktop is mate?
<worldofpeace>
is it that you are trying to use mate DE?
<{^_^}>
[nixpkgs] @FRidh pushed 20 commits to staging-20.09: https://git.io/JUcDH
<worldofpeace>
(the first response wasn't supposed to be a question 😸)
<eliumir>
worldofpeace yes
<worldofpeace>
eliumir: for every DE in nixpkgs is a nixos module
<{^_^}>
[nixpkgs] @NeQuissimus pushed 6 commits to release-20.09: https://git.io/JUcyv
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<eliumir>
worldofpeace I have already installed "mate desktop" with mate-menus etc. that's fine but mate.mate-control-centers doesn't work :(
<worldofpeace>
eliumir: you mean you already did services.xserver.desktopManager.mate.enable in configuration.nix? Because from the other things you said it sounds like you've put all the mate packages into environment.systemPackages?
<{^_^}>
[nixpkgs] @Mic92 pushed 2 commits to release-20.09: https://git.io/JUcys
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<eliumir>
in the cofiguration.nix i have services.xserver.desktopManager.mate.enable = true. i install package home manager to create a profil and home.packages i do : home.packages = with pkgs; [ mate.mate-control-center ... other packages ]; but mate.mate control-center doesn work
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<worldofpeace>
eliumir: okay, I don't think you should need to add mate-control-center via home.packages, the module will add it etc. Could you provide your: nixos-version, the output of `printenv XDG_CURRENT_DESKTOP`, and the output of `G_MESSAGES_DEBUG=all mate-control-center`
<worldofpeace>
but probably after u purge mate-control-center home-manager
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<{^_^}>
[nixpkgs] @samuelgrf opened pull request #97565 → nixos/config: move nano to defaultPackages → https://git.io/JUcyV
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<fresheyeball>
how can I check for what version of nixpkgs is currently deployed in a nixops deployment?
<eliumir>
wolfshappen XDG_CURRENT_DESKTOP in output mate. the second command G_MESSAGES_DEBUG=all mate-control-center output couldn't load bookmark file
<eliumir>
wolfshappen I will look at this mistake. Thank you for giving me a lead and I'll get back to you if I don't have a solution. thanks :)
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<worldofpeace>
eliumir: it seems you're @'ing someone else? I believe you mean to @ me?
<worldofpeace>
could u paste these outputs into hastebin maybe. I don't see much other leads so far
<mariatsji>
hi, is it possible to alias a package as a nix-expression? I have a 3rd party expecting `haskell.compiler.ghc884` but this is known simply as `ghc` in my current nix-channel
<iwq>
does anyone here use neovim 0.5 with nvim-lspconfig on nixos? I'm getting Error executing lua Vim:E739: Cannot create directory /homeless-shelter
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<steveeJ>
I just updated my system and firefox and evolution broke. although differently it seems to relate to fonts. switching to firefox from unstable got that going, but I'm wondering if someone knows a ticket for this
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<Miyu-saki>
How do I make wireguard *not* setup a default route?
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<Miyu-saki>
I think it's not wireguard itself, but I have a daemon adding a default route for every interface
<Miyu-saki>
I checked my `networking` config, and there's no glaring issue
<cole-h>
steveeJ: Needs more info. By "updated my system", do you mean "updated my channels"? From what to what? And in what way did firefox and evolution break?
<Miyu-saki>
What networking daemon is on NixOS?
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<cole-h>
I don't think NixOS uses a networking daemon -- pretty sure it just uses iptables?
<cole-h>
(There is some support for systemd-networkd, but it's infantile at best, from what I've read)
<Miyu-saki>
Hm
<Miyu-saki>
Maybe it's dhcpcd that's adding the default route then?
<cole-h>
Possible. I'm not well (or at all, really) versed in networking, much less NixOS's networking story.
<{^_^}>
#97441 (by jtojnar, 1 day ago, merged): nixos/fontconfig: Fix compatibility with unstable apps
<Miyu-saki>
I guess I'll try filtering it out from dhcpcd.
<cole-h>
steveeJ: It's already in nixos-20.03-small, if you're interested in trying that out; otherwise, you'll want to 1) not use any graphical software from unstable for the time being 2) regenerate your font cache
<steveeJ>
cole-h: that screenshot shows how my evolution looks like ;-)
<cole-h>
(It can be regenerated using `fc-cache -r`)
<steveeJ>
cole-h: will regenerating the font-cache solve the issue, i.e. allow me to continue using graphical tools from both stable and unstable?
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<andrewe>
hi, I'm trying to install nixos on a Lenovo X220 with UEFI, but grub says: "error: no such partition". My partitioning is very simple, I just have one harddisk with 3 partitions (I followed the manual).
<andrewe>
If I enter "ls (hd0,msdos1)" into the grub rescue console, I get: Filesystem is unknown.
<{^_^}>
[nixpkgs] @zookatron opened pull request #97580 → [20.09] csvkit: fix failing test → https://git.io/JUc7R
<ar>
andrewe: what does "ls (hd0,gpt1)" say?
<ar>
andrewe: or try "ls (hd" and hit "tab" a bunch of times
<andrewe>
"no partition"
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<{^_^}>
[nixpkgs] @worldofpeace merged pull request #97550 → lxd: Download Alpine image instead of relying on external source → https://git.io/JUcXb
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<{^_^}>
[nixpkgs] @worldofpeace pushed 4 commits to master: https://git.io/JUc7P
<ixxie>
There is a command line tool for configuring some settings for a device I use; I want to wrap these imperative commands in a declarative NixOS module with all the bells and whistles as options.
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<ixxie>
Anybody know of a good example of a NixOS module doing something similar?
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<Miyu-saki>
cole-h: Hi, my bad, sorry, turns out it was wireguard being smart.
<Miyu-saki>
If I allow 0.0.0.0/0 for wireguard, then that means that everything is routed through there
<Ke>
ixxie: alternatively you can add custom systemd services in your nixos config
<ixxie>
this is neat
<ixxie>
and seems much easier than a systemd service for this purpose
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<ixxie>
Am I reading correctly that the format here is { script1 = { text = ''' echo "whatevs"; mycooltool arg1 arg2;'''; deps = [mycooltool]; } script2 = { ... }; } ?
<{^_^}>
[cabal2nix] @worldofpeace opened pull request #469 → FromCabal.License: drop jasper → https://git.io/JUcdG
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<{^_^}>
[nixpkgs] @Myhlamaeus opened pull request #97590 → terraform-providers: add version to patchGoModVendor providers → https://git.io/JUcFn
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<steve-chavez>
Hi! How can I run shell redirection after a `nix-shell --run`? This one is not working: `nix-shell --run nixpkgs-upgrade > nix/nixpkgs-version.nix`
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<steve-chavez>
The `nix/nixpkgs-version.nix` gets emptied in this case. It's doing `> nix/nixpkgs-version.nix`.
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<Yaniel>
is there anything to keep in mind when using pipewire on nixos?
<Yaniel>
does it support pulse/alsa bridging out of the box?
<{^_^}>
[nixpkgs] @kevincox pushed to kevincox-chrony-state « chrony: Create state directory with correct owner. »: https://git.io/JUcFP
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<{^_^}>
[nixpkgs] @kevincox opened pull request #97592 → chrony: Create state directory with correct owner. → https://git.io/JUcFM
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<steve-chavez>
Looks like it was a bug in my nix-shell version(2.2.2).
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<rschulman>
I'm trying to compile something from within a nix-shell that needs the GPU to run. Which of the nvidia packages should I include in the shell.nix derivation?
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<Yaniel>
rschulman: the one for the API you are using
<rschulman>
Yaniel: Thanks, but no joy from that. Running nix-shell did give a few "wrong ELF type" errors when running, but it did complete and put me in the shell.
<Yaniel>
wrong ELF type?
<Yaniel>
that's usually 32bit vs 64bit mismatch
<Yaniel>
rschulman: are you getting some particular error? or can you tell what application you are trying to build
<{^_^}>
[nixpkgs] @roberth pushed 2 commits to release-20.09: https://git.io/JUcxa
<CyberManifest>
I don't understand, what's this NixOS all about? is it a rolling release ?
<bbigras>
CyberManifest: kinda if you follow unstable
<bbigras>
if you follow the latest release you get 2 releases per year
<makefu>
similar to debian, there are stable channels and there is unstable which is rolling
<Yaniel>
the bigger 'thing' about it is the declarative & atomic package management
<bbigras>
and unstable is pretty damn good. rarely I need to rollback. so unstable for me is like Arch but with an undo button. and most of my computers are all configured with just config files.
<CyberManifest>
Yaniel: what's the advantage vs installing the Nix package manager over onto debian ?
<Yaniel>
you can manage *everything* with nix
<CyberManifest>
bbigras: sounds similar to Manjaro
<Yaniel>
system services, packages, users, storage, networking configuration
<CyberManifest>
Yaniel: I'm no following
<CyberManifest>
Yaniel: you can do that with existing distros, no ?
<bbigras>
CyberManifest: does Manjaro has a complex way to set most of your dotfiles?
<CyberManifest>
is bspwm available for NixOS ?
<Yaniel>
I don't think so?
<CyberManifest>
bbigras, does Nix ?
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<CyberManifest>
is there a Armhf varient of NixOS ?
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<simpson>
CyberManifest: If you don't understand Nix, then NixOS might not seem very interesting, since it's merely using Nix to manage Linux and systemd.
<CyberManifest>
OMG! Yuck, ok that clears it up for me NixOS is for programmers
<bbigras>
I have no idea what most of those settings are, but I think it's pretty cool to be able to configure pulseaudio so easely.
<simpson>
It's merely building configurations of the system as if they were packages. Since Nix packages are relatively reproducible, so are system configurations. Since Nix userlands can be rolled back atomically, so can the entire system.
<bbigras>
you don't need to know how to program, unless maybe you want to create your own nix modules.
<CyberManifest>
bbigras, I'm sure pulseaudio's source code allows the same
<simpson>
CyberManifest: I guess, if you're not a programmer, what draws you to Linux and what do you want out of a distro?
<bbigras>
CyberManifest: probably but with "the nix way" you don't have to do anything when you update pulseaudio. unless maybe some options changed.
<CyberManifest>
simpson: liberty, dependability, efficiency, the typical stuff
<CyberManifest>
bbigras, isn't that what shell script dot files are for?
<simpson>
CyberManifest: Yes, NixOS is a good choice for that. You'll have to learn Nix. I don't think that this excludes non-programmers; I'm a musician and I still learned how to do it.
<edef>
interesting!
<edef>
i wonder how many non-programmers use NixOS
<CyberManifest>
simpson: from the looks of it, it very much excludes non-programmers
<notgne2>
and learning to use nix is still easier than learning the semantics of every single configuration file you would have to use without it
<bbigras>
CyberManifest: shell script dot files? do you mean like syncing your dotfiles between computers or having them backed up?
<edef>
it feels accessible and easy but i've programmed for most of my existence
<notgne2>
and you get the benefits of Nix as a language, which is useful even to non programmers, being able to use variables to avoid copy pasting 100 times in some cases
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<CyberManifest>
bbigras, a lot of people put their dot files on git
<bbigras>
CyberManifest: yeah I know. I was just confused by the "shell script" part.
<notgne2>
CyberManifest: syncing dotfiles is the poor alternative to `home-manager`, not really to NixOS
<bbigras>
yeah I don't need to sync dotfiles now that I use nix
<notgne2>
NixOS will handle your kernel, bootloader, files in `/etc` and even some non-stateful files in `/var`, your installed packages, etc
<bbigras>
^ ~/.config files too
<CyberManifest>
notgne2 sounds like a lot of vector points for breakage
<simpson>
CyberManifest: From my POV, *any* Linux distro will require you to learn some small languages. In Debian, you need to know a mini-language for configuring networks, and another one for filesystems, and each daemon comes with its own files and /var space. Nix can't permanently solve all of that (a lot of it is just the ecosystem) but it does replace those other distro-specific languages.
<simpson>
Sure, *if* Nix breaks, then the entire system doesn't work. Also, if Linux breaks, then the entire system doesn't work. (And on Debian, when apt breaks...)
<bbigras>
CyberManifest: nix would be simpler than that sh script. in my opinion
<CyberManifest>
simpson I can't recall ever seing apt break
<Yaniel>
(and apt breaks easily)
<notgne2>
CyberManifest: that script is actually a great contrast to NixOS, what you're doing here is automating installing things, which is definitely a lot more liable to issues and a pain to mantain compared to NixOS. In NixOS you wouldn't have any "steps" like this at all, you would just declare all these packages as installed, declare your configurations, etc, and NixOS would reliably make this be the case
<CyberManifest>
bbigras: you probably have a better comprehension of languages though
<simpson>
CyberManifest: I'm forced to conclude that you haven't used Debian or Ubuntu much. In particular, I have *never* had an Ubuntu upgrade which did not break apt/dpkg/etc. somewhere.
<bbigras>
I have problems with ubuntu updates in the past. a while ago.
<Yaniel>
my favourite feature of apt is when it randomly decides that it is no longer needed and autoremoves itself
<Yaniel>
and yes this happened on a vanilla ubuntu
<bbigras>
CyberManifest: ah possibly. but unless I'm doing something crazy with Nix, I don't really code. It's more like a structured config file. When I write a nix module it's something else. I often need help.
<CyberManifest>
ok, yall are still glossing over the qustion: Is there an ARMhf version ?
<notgne2>
Yaniel (chat.freenode.net): well hey, it's just trying to help do the job of NIXOS_LUSTRATE for you ;)
<simpson>
CyberManifest: ARM is sadly not so simple; you'll probably need board-by-board support. Yes, there's ARM support, including both endiannesses and several different generations.
<Yaniel>
I do remember hearing about NixOS on raspberry pi
<bbigras>
I was caught with my pants down more than once at work because of bad Arch updates. Especially since they cool AUR thing is not official.
<CyberManifest>
simpson: I've used Debian for many years of my Linux exposure, I've been and off and on user since RedHat Apollo
<bbigras>
arch + file system snapshots shouldn't be as bad but I wasn't using it back then.
<qyliss>
CyberManifest: if you don't get an answer to ARM questions here you might want to try #nixos-aarch64, which despite the name can probably help you with all kinds of ARM
<simpson>
CyberManifest: Then you're lucky to not have experienced it breaking.
<simpson>
> pkgsCross.armhf-embedded # CyberManifest: If you just need a no-triple armhf toolchain
<qyliss>
CyberManifest: read the second half of my message
<CyberManifest>
qyliss 32 bit not 64 bit
<simpson>
CyberManifest: *any* ARM questions are well-answered in #nixos-aarch64. Honestly it should be called #nixos-embedded but CLV.
<qyliss>
"if you don't get an answer to ARM questions here you might want to try #nixos-aarch64, which despite the name can probably help you with all kinds of ARM" (emphasis added)
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<CyberManifest>
qyliss: I don't see any emphasis, is it client dependent ?
<qyliss>
CyberManifest: I bolded the words "despite the name". Most clients should support it but I guess maybe some terminal emulators or whatever might not.
<CyberManifest>
yeah it's not showing here on my end
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<bbigras>
CyberManifest: I hope I didn't scare you with the crazy pulseaudio example. It's often a lot simpler. For example if I want to use the starship prompt, I just need `programs.starship.enable = true;` and it will set itself no matter if I use bash, fish or zsh.
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<notgne2>
NixOS configurations tend to look scarily complex even when written by non programmers, but this isn't because anything is more complex, but rather because NixOS often takes away 90% of the effort of configuring trivial things, and gives you time to do more complex configurations
<NobbZ[m]>
"qyliss" (https://matrix.to/#/@freenode_qyliss:matrix.org) on mobile there is about no formatting, except for nicknames
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<qyliss>
"on mobile" could refer to any number of clients, some of which will support formatting and some won't :)
<endocrimes>
quassel doesn't seem to support that either :(
<notgne2>
for instance I highly doubt I'd have my own mailserver if my server wasn't running NixOS, but this doesn't mean that you need to run your own mailserver if you run NixOS. it's the same with insanely in-depth pulseaudio configurations
<{^_^}>
[nixpkgs] @zowoq opened pull request #97603 → buildRustPackage: support setting test-threads → https://git.io/JUcpB
<Yaniel>
that looks like communi-desktop, nice
<CyberManifest>
qyliss, that's what I saw, no bold :(
<NobbZ[m]>
Sorry qyliss in that case matrix element for android was the client :D
<qyliss>
Yeah it was my bad
<qyliss>
bold isn't allowed in this channel
<bbigras>
oh yeah. Configuring postfix as a relay at work with Nix took 5 mins.
<CyberManifest>
oh, just now read
* CyberManifest
is a little slow
<CyberManifest>
they're telling me over in #nixos-aarch64 I'd have to compile
<CyberManifest>
<samueldr>but the you're likely to face the same issue: needing to compile evertyhing
<notgne2>
there's also probably bootstrap ISOs and binaries, but it really varies
<notgne2>
either way, compiling isn't juggling 100 makefiles, it's just running `nix-build`, it just will eat some cpu time
<CyberManifest>
notgne2 for armhf ?
<simpson>
CyberManifest: Nix usually needs to compile everything. For the common case of standard amd64 systems, there is a community-trusted build farm which compiles many common packages.
<CyberManifest>
simpson: armhf ?
<simpson>
It's not like Debian, where everything is prebuilt and all of your packages are binaries. Rather, your packages are binaries when they are popular in the community.
<CyberManifest>
simpson: so it's like gentoo ?
<simpson>
CyberManifest: No, as samueldr was explaining, there's no good options for adding Raspberry Pis to the build farm; at scale, they'd rather have something rackable and etc.
<notgne2>
CyberManifest: I'm not really familiar with embedded architectures, but while they often won't be on the official hydra/cache server, there is many third party servers that will have the binaries built and cached for you
<simpson>
Yes, Nix is like Gentoo. Where Gentoo has only a few -bin packages based on nobody having the RAM to build OpenOffice, Nix has binary packages based on popularity and common configuration.
<bbigras>
Isn't almost everything available as binaries for x86_64?
<Yaniel>
almost
<notgne2>
and there's no difference between the bin or built packages, just if you try compiling something the binary cache, it will download it instead
<bbigras>
you guys sounds like it's a lot
<CyberManifest>
notgne2: again, failing to see where NixOS is providing an alternative or better solution than say Debian on armhf
<Yaniel>
but nix generally does not use upstream binaries
<bbigras>
only stuff I need to build is what I customize.
<notgne2>
bbigras (chat.freenode.net): anything with an unfree license will be built locally iirc
<simpson>
There's so many non-standard configurations, though. `nginx` is prebuilt, but `nginx.override { gd = null; }` is not, for example. Just gotta live with it.
<Yaniel>
there are some less popular packages that require building regularly
<notgne2>
newer mongodb, nvidia drivers, etc
<bbigras>
notgne2: you sure? I don't remember wasting hours building Chrome.
<Yaniel>
also xonotic frequently needs to be built locally
<samueldr>
bbigras: it's redistributable though
<notgne2>
bbigras (chat.freenode.net): chrome uses an upstream binary
* CyberManifest
doesn't understand this build and layers thing
<samueldr>
it's unfree and (or) non-redistributable
<simpson>
CyberManifest: If you were a Debian Developer, and had to write the packages, then you'd see the advantage pretty quickly. Ditto for if you've ever suffered BitBake/OpenEmbedded/etc.
<CyberManifest>
this all seems very overwhelming
<Yaniel>
it is a lot to take in
<bbigras>
samueldr: notgne2 thanks
<CyberManifest>
simpson: ok, that confirms it's for PROGRAMMERS
<Yaniel>
and NixOS brings you fairly close to the packaging process compared to other distros
<CyberManifest>
Yaniel: something an average user wouldn't want to do
<simpson>
CyberManifest: Please knock it off. There's *no such thing* as "programmers", not for over a century. There's just people who have the patience to type at keyboards and wait for the computer to tell them how they were wrong.
<notgne2>
CyberManifest: I mean, my wife uses NixOS too and she's not a programmer, it's just the only way to stop shit from breaking every week
<CyberManifest>
simpson: ok, you've now lost my interest with that absurd belief
<bbigras>
don't forget that you can rollback if there's a problem.
<simpson>
("over a century"? I'm a dramatic idiot; it's been maybe half a century.)
<bbigras>
no need to be a programmer
<notgne2>
and she also has both a laptop and a desktop, which both use the same configuration, which is something NixOS lets you do which is very convenient
<CyberManifest>
simpson: people who use apple macs and windows don't type near as much and can still get out what they intend
<simpson>
CyberManifest: Oh! I don't particularly care if you adopt Nix; I'm okay with losing your interest. I just want to make sure that you're well-informed about what Nix offers.
<samueldr>
many NixOS users can't program their ways out of a paper bag, though I do think it's not the majority
<bbigras>
oh well we tried. whatever works for you is fine CyberManifest but Nix is awesome for me. really. I love it.
<CyberManifest>
bbigras: glad you found something for you :)
<bbigras>
thanks
<CyberManifest>
does NixOS cover exploits like spectre and meltdown since those are typically on x86 ?
<misuzu>
CyberManifest: nixos is unusable on armhf right now
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<CyberManifest>
misuzu: thank you for that very concise answer :)
<simpson>
misuzu: Which board?
<CyberManifest>
misuzu: that is very very much appreciated
<misuzu>
simpson: any
<samueldr>
misuzu: define "unusable"
<samueldr>
(sorry)
<samueldr>
it's definitely unergonomic, and fraught with issues, but it's possible to use AFAIK
<samueldr>
but yeah, on 32 bit ARM I wouldn't recommend at this state
<simpson>
misuzu: That wasn't my experience last time I tried; I have similar hardware to CyberManifest's and I'd say that, while hilariously slow, the machine did boot and function just fine. The slowness is due to the hardware's well-known poor SD card bridge and underwhelming CPU.
<misuzu>
samueldr: for begginners it's too complicated to get it working
<samueldr>
misuzu: yeah, good, I was curious if there was something new that made it *completely* unusable
<CyberManifest>
simpson: yeah, I use a HAT for mSATA over USB
<samueldr>
misuzu: I think we mostly agree
<simpson>
CyberManifest: So, like, I still don't fully understand. It sounds like you're happy with Raspbian/etc., so what exactly do you hope to gain from having Nix available?
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<simpson>
misuzu++ for sharing, we appreciate it. It's good to have reports from users in the field.
<{^_^}>
misuzu's karma got increased to 3
<CyberManifest>
simpson: well, I was just hearing about it and decided to vist the website and read a little about it, and it sounded intriguing; I happened to like how the name correlates to Linux and Unix with the Nix name; as pedantic and trivial as that is. I'm a bit OCD like that.
<simpson>
It *is* a good pun. I'm told that, in Dutch, "nix" means "nothing", and one of the central ideas in Nix is to have an empty environment by default.
<notgne2>
honestly confusion over the name isn't pedantic in my opinion because I'm constantly confused by it every day I work with Nix
<CyberManifest>
simpson: nix also means night in mythology er a variation of it.
<bbigras>
nix is usable on other Linux distro too. I use it on one Ubuntu server to get some up-to-date tools.
<notgne2>
you won't believe how many people use "*nix" as short for "Linix" and "UNIX" and mess up my search results
<CyberManifest>
simpson: so it's all cool sounding you know
<notgne2>
I bet the Guix folks don't have this problem
<samueldr>
AFAIK it's niks, simpson, which sounds like nix :)
<misuzu>
simpson: things are much better now than it was last year - it's working without patching lots of packages, but missing binary cache is *very* inconvenient
<CyberManifest>
notgne2: I'm not confused by it, it's just cool how it retains a *nix appeal like Linux, Unix, nix like a spell, nix like the night, etc.
<misuzu>
on x86 this is not an issue, but on armv7l it's just painful
<samueldr>
misuzu: assuming armv7l (armv6l can't be helped :/) it could be possible if we had someone _actively_ working (meaning probabl $$) on the problem of setting ourselves
<notgne2>
oh, well if you got into Nix you'd probably notice the inconvenience of the name soon enough tbh, I do like it though so I'm not suggesting it be changed
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<samueldr>
misuzu: it's been verified that we can run proper armv7l VMs on some classes of aarch64 servers, which don't leak armv8 or aarch64
<CyberManifest>
notgne2: oh, yeah I can see how that would disrupt search results
<samueldr>
misuzu: but the contributors working on that, all working at best efforts, means that there's not been much happening yet :(
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<CyberManifest>
I think I missed my answer about nixOS handling spectre and meltdown
<misuzu>
samueldr: maybe we could raise money and buy required hardware? i would like to donate, maybe some folks would too
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<samueldr>
misuzu: AFAIK the hardware itself isn't an issue, it's people-hours work, though I'm not 100% positive
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<notgne2>
CyberManifest: I would assume this is more of Linux's problem than NixOS, I think mitigation is on by default as part of the kernel
<CyberManifest>
you would think with all the layoffs and people in quarantine at home, there would be free time (people-hours) to work on projects such as suggested
<simpson>
CyberManifest: It's up to your Linux version, since unlike Debian, we don't have to wait for the world to be rebuilt by distro developers. (This is the good part of having a source distro.) Although, on Raspberry Pi, you might not have a full choice of latest kernel, you *also* aren't really exploitable like if you were on amd64.
<notgne2>
but Nix does have a security response system too, for if patches are needed
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<samueldr>
simpson: more succintly: depends on upstream projects
<CyberManifest>
notgne2: well, no, see, as a solution to me I run ARM arch, which is immune to exploit, but I evidentally can't run NixOS well on that ATM, but debian is already running and a few other distros like arch and manjaro etc.
<samueldr>
Archlinux ARM is not more immune than NixOS would be
<misuzu>
samueldr: armv7l VMs is a good starting point, i'm running one on my rpi4 and had no issues so far
<bbigras>
yeah there's probably no such thing as "immune to exploit"
<bbigras>
oh you meant about those 2 specific cases
<bbigras>
nevermind what I say then.
<CyberManifest>
simpson: yes, I'm aware, that's why I run a 3 B+ and not a 4
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<samueldr>
misuzu: yeah, that's basically it... we know the solution, but we simply don't have the people working on that... it's not like some distros where there are people hired to work on platform supports
<simpson>
samueldr: Hm. *I'm* an unemployed person. I don't have many privileges (and I shouldn't!) but if there's a list of hardware that I need to have running in my homelab, then I can work towards that.
<{^_^}>
[nixpkgs] @teh opened pull request #97605 → zict: disable python 2 and 3.5. → https://git.io/JUchm
<simpson>
I think that there's also a lack of roadmap, y'know?
<samueldr>
simpson: exactly
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<samueldr>
I'm not exactly sure either what are the next steps
<{^_^}>
[nixpkgs] @ajs124 merged pull request #97438 → nixos/openvpn: path now requires conversion to a string → https://git.io/JUn0G
<CyberManifest>
simpson: I was asking about nixOS not ARM or Linux
<CyberManifest>
simpson: I was curious how it's managed via x86
<CyberManifest>
it was stated that NixOS handles the kernel
<CyberManifest>
so I was curious how it managed patching and such
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<CyberManifest>
Like is there an advanted for me to put on x86 hardware over other distros in that regard ?
<CyberManifest>
advantage*
<simpson>
Yes, precisely because of the page that I linked: Distros like Debian might not have finished rebuilding everything.
<CyberManifest>
rebuilding everything ?
<samueldr>
the usual benefits: declarative configuration, the nix package manager's benefits too
<CyberManifest>
simpson: debian already runs on Armhf, and better than NixOS from what I gather.
<simpson>
Yes, Spectre and Meltdown mitigations include not just a Linux kernel component, but also GCC patches so that the compiler generates harder-to-exploit code.
<CyberManifest>
simpson: unless you're meaning x86
<simpson>
CyberManifest: Then go use Debian and don'
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<simpson>
*don't...well, it doesn't matter. The main point is, *use what works*. It's *okay* if we don't support your board to your satisfaction.
<CyberManifest>
simpson: I guess it boils down to my FoMO
<simpson>
Oh. Send me money, or you're missing out~
<misuzu>
CyberManifest: if you have rpi4 you could just use aarch64 version of NixOS
<CyberManifest>
misuzu: yeah I don't have a rpi4 for the reasons mentioned before
<zeta_0>
i'm missing some functionality that is in the newest xmonad git revision, so how do i upgrade my xmonad in home.nix ? https://dpaste.org/o2WP
<simpson>
Because Spectre and Meltdown? You'll likely have a better time disabling JS and not running untrusted binaries; a
<simpson>
*a Raspberry Pi isn't a good place for hosting Other People's Programs anyway.
<zeta_0>
i hope theres an option to set xmonad to the unstable channel !
<notgne2>
I had a fun experience installing NixOS on an rpi4 recently, I assumed I had to build it on the machine itself (as I heard cross compiling didn't work), and it had almost finished building by the time that I realized the OS I was trying to replace didn't have full rpi4 support yet, so it was building for the 32bit version of the architecture, I then also realized that there's already an ISO for that architecture
<{^_^}>
[nixpkgs] @jonringer merged pull request #97525 → j: fix build on darwin → https://git.io/JUcRP
<{^_^}>
[nixpkgs] @jonringer pushed commit from @Luflosi to master « j: fix build on darwin »: https://git.io/JUchX
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<CyberManifest>
simpson: I was afraid of that, when Linus got his new shinny AMD based machine I was afraid ARM was going to be left behind in the linux world, or treated like a second class citizen. And with ARM growing in adoptions in other industries like mobile, gamming, supper computing, aerospace, and now even Apple taking it up etc. I grow concerned over the future of Linux in general.
<notgne2>
I was actually very surprised to find that most distro derivatives marketted for the raspi, have an rpi4 iso which is actually not even for the correct architecture
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<Yaniel>
it's not like linus was using ARM before this new threadripper machine
<simpson>
CyberManifest: Hi! I wrote drivers for GPUs and worked on ARM stuff professionally. *No*, I assure you that the fault lies with ARM, and more importantly with the half-dozen big ARM vendors who all want to control hardware and users.
<Yaniel>
no reason why ARM would be treated in any way differently now
<CyberManifest>
Yaniel: nope, but he was definitely attributing code before
<samueldr>
notgne2: the rpi foundation didn't support aarch64, even as a beta, when the rpi4 was released
<CyberManifest>
Yaniel: but his focus may get more seduced by x86 now that he's on his new thread-ripper
<samueldr>
notgne2: we produce an aarch64 sd image for the rpi4 on hydra, not beta, but not "production" worthy, kind of in-between
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<CyberManifest>
Yaniel: except growth
<CyberManifest>
Yaniel: and adoption
<samueldr>
notgne2: the big issue being that I would rather have it boot with u-boot, like the generic image, and also use the mainline kernel, like the generic image... so basically, delete that board-specific image and just support it through the generic image :)
<Yaniel>
OTOH consider this: now he has more cores for ARM virtual machines
<CyberManifest>
Yaniel: someone else will adopt that red headed step child
<simpson>
CyberManifest: Would you like to learn what *actually* goes into Linux? You can read changelogs: https://kernelnewbies.org/Linux_5.4
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<CyberManifest>
Yaniel: doubt he can VM aarch64, armhf, arml etc. WELL
<CyberManifest>
simpson: I'm aware of the changelogs
<simpson>
CyberManifest: Then you're surely aware that Linus is but one drop in an ocean of contributors? And also that most of the ARM-specific stuff that has to be done is adding drivers for SoCs whose vendors don't release docs?
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<CyberManifest>
simpson: yes, but this neck of the ocean "nixOS" cares little about arm arch, and I see it as a pattern among Linux distros and community in general
<simpson>
Frankly, there's a solid argument that the ARM tree *suffers* because Linus and others don't have time+energy+hardware for investigating changes.
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<CyberManifest>
simpson: as all x86 vendors release docs... nvidia ?
<simpson>
CyberManifest: We care a great deal, but ARM SoCs must be brought up *one board at a time*. x86 and amd64 have the BIOS, they have UEFI, they have ACPI, they have standard (horrible but predictable) ways to configure a system generically.
<notgne2>
nvidia has pretty shit support too
<CyberManifest>
simpson: there it is "... +hardware"
<CyberManifest>
simpson: and ARM SoCs have Uboot
<samueldr>
u-boot is not made by the vendors
<simpson>
CyberManifest: I literally used to have a dozen Chromebooks on my desk. Because each and every Chromebook was different, there was no single configuration that would boot them all. This is typical in ARM-world; look up "device trees" if you want to be sad.
<samueldr>
they adapt whatever version the SoC vendor decided to use to cram their features into
<samueldr>
and generally lack the recent features
<samueldr>
and u-boot doesn't define things like ACPI
<CyberManifest>
ARM is the new frontier so of course it's not going to have the old support x86 has accumulated over the years through the same panes from the begining
<CyberManifest>
simpson: what do you think the early days of x86 looked like ?
<simpson>
CyberManifest: "IBM compatible"; everybody did what IBM did.
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<CyberManifest>
simpson: wrong
<notgne2>
I think ARM is hardly new at this point, and a lot of the support is not from "accumulation" but rather standards or at least pseudo-standards
<simpson>
(The *early* early days don't look like personal computers; they look like traffic lights.)
<CyberManifest>
simpson: it's why there was driver hell
<CyberManifest>
simpson: you think early on Linux was *Fully* compatible with all x86 systems that were out there?
<CyberManifest>
no people had to hack there way through
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<AmandaC>
drivers are on a totally different level from *getting into kernel space in the first place*
<CyberManifest>
modems didn't work, pci boards etc.
<notgne2>
ARM vendors seem to be if anything, actually allergic to standards, so getting magical support for all devices is definitely harder than for x86, and possibly more of a political issue
<AmandaC>
what they're saying is that every single SoC has their own boot process, rarely related,
<CyberManifest>
AmandaC that's part of the issue with ARM blobs
<AmandaC>
x86 never had that problem.
<CyberManifest>
AmandaC proprietary and as someone here said man hours, on x86 people have spent years and decades focusing on it so the man hours overcame the proprietary
<AmandaC>
x86 standardised on the boot sector very early
<CyberManifest>
AmandaC: x86 indeed did have that problem
<samueldr>
it's not blobs really, but the platform "bringup", which while it's defined in the ARM cpu docs, defines so little that it is not really useful
<AmandaC>
ARM doesn't hav anything like that
<simpson>
CyberManifest: I don't know how to put this. Consider Linux's original announcement email: https://fossbytes.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/linus-torvald-first-linux-email.png Linus says here that multiple Intel CPUs are supported, and they'll be runtime-detected to some degree. He also says that he only supports one type of hard disk, but it happens to be the IBM-compatible transport, so it's common.
<samueldr>
AmandaC: there is, but it's been ignored outside of server-class hardware :( SBBR
<simpson>
Compare and contrast with ARM. Runtime CPU detection is a thing but people generally build for the target SoC. There is *no* standard HDD-like storage.
<samueldr>
SBBR is basically telling: support UEFI + ACPI + some other needed things *that way*
<samueldr>
there is EBBR that targets SBCs, but it's kind of problematic because it's not a basica part of the ARM "architecture"
<simpson>
And device trees are not a solution because they still require the software to describe the hardware; on x86, though, the hardware *describes itself*.
<samueldr>
(not CPU architecture, but device bringup)
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<samueldr>
simpson: half-truth, the ACPI tables are software that describe themselves
<simpson>
samueldr: Fair. And those tables are lies.
<samueldr>
simpson: but the main thing to see is that in x86 land the ACPI tables as shipped by the vendors are generally good
<samueldr>
hah
<samueldr>
while the device trees for many SBCs, as shipped, is basically worthless :/
<CyberManifest>
AmandaC that's why intel came out with various technologies like SECC etc. checkout the evolution over the years of x86 and think why it was necessary and why we ALL aren't using the very same original x86 design.
<AmandaC>
That's totally unrelated to "Driver hell" with what's happening on ARM
<CyberManifest>
simpson: *to some degree*, *several (not all)*
<growpotkin>
Hey whats the power management setting to prevent screen sleep?
<CyberManifest>
simpson: sounds similar to ARM to me.
<growpotkin>
( or at least extend the timeout? )
<samueldr>
CyberManifest: SECC? that's not even defined in the page you linked
<AmandaC>
ARM doesn't justhave a driver problem. IT's got an entire boot process problem
<samueldr>
growpotkin: I don't know if there's one in the NixOS configurations, but a keyword is DPMS
<growpotkin>
thank you!
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<simpson>
CyberManifest: Well, compare and contrast e.g. a GPU driver. On x86, the GPU driver is requested by looking up PCI IDs, right? And we can maybe guess if we recognize the PCI vendor but not the specific model, maybe do some PCI probing and try to boot it anyway.
<samueldr>
AmandaC: yeah, many SBCs assume the end-user gets their firmware just like they get their OS, which is yucky!
<simpson>
On ARM, there's no probing. The device tree tells you exactly where the GPU's located, how to boot it, which quirks it needs, and how its memory needs to be laid out.
<CyberManifest>
simpson: some vendors for ARM GIVE that info such as raspberry pi, but developers aren't even remotely interested they're still stroking their sweet x86
<simpson>
It turns out that the latter method's more brittle. The software has to be configured in advance for the hardware.
<misuzu>
https://rpi4-uefi.dev things would be much better if there was something like this for every arm board
<CyberManifest>
simpson: Debian can do Raspberry Pi well but NixOS can't?
<Yaniel>
I wouldn't say debian does it *well*
<simpson>
CyberManifest: No, I'm not talking about spec sheets, *although* yes it's true that ARM vendors are horrible at sharing those. (I think only MES has ever actually shared one I needed, and it looks accidental and it's half in Korean still.) I'm talking about the actual pins for I/O.
<samueldr>
simpson: on ARM with DT you can end up using PCI(e), no? what you describe is kind of tangential... though yeah, on-board GPUs will be described in the DT
<CyberManifest>
Yaniel: it does do it well, it actually runs, what's my nixOS option ?
<samueldr>
simpson: and when you do, you are not using DT at that point to detect the hardware, you're in the PCI subsystem of Linux, just like on non-DT platforms AFAIUI
<simpson>
samueldr: The GPU's usually in the SoC. But yes, when PCI/PCIe is hooked up, and the SoC has *that* configured, then we can do ordinary probes over PCI. I don't think it's accidental that the typical SoC is now wired up to USB, eSATA, PCIe, etc.
<CyberManifest>
simpson: many vendors give that info, like Khadas, but developers just aren't interested, that's what I mean ARM gets treated like a second class citizen
<samueldr>
misuzu: I think what every boards need first is a way to store the firmware outside of the end-user's main storage
<samueldr>
misuzu: and then yes, please bring more tianocore impl :)
<samueldr>
though u-boot, once on e.g. SPI flash, is quite serviceable and enough
<simpson>
CyberManifest: I would put a cash prize on a PDF describing the Poulsbo, but I'm pretty sure that it'd be criminal to do that. The manufacturer's known to be rather tight with the docs. This has happened with ARM vendors Intel, nVidia, Marvell, ARM themselves...
<CyberManifest>
simpson: and nvidia is in talks of buying ARM from Marvell now
<simpson>
Yep, leading to Intel 2.0. Are you ready for decades of ARM being locked up by a monopolistic owner? It'll be fun~
<CyberManifest>
simpson: and that info was accumulated over years and years of x86 support
<CyberManifest>
simpson: again ARM is the new frontier
<Yaniel>
uh GPUs are not x86
<Yaniel>
no accumulated info there
<simpson>
CyberManifest: Nope! Almost all of those AMD docs were right after AMD acquired ATI. I and others petitioned AMD for the docs, and they gave us docs, people, IRC conversations, etc.
<CyberManifest>
simpson: it doesn't have the track record x86 has accumulated
<CyberManifest>
simpson: mostly cause it gets treated now like a second class citizen
<simpson>
CyberManifest: I feel that you've largely ignored what we've said, if you're back on that track. There are *reasons* why supporting ARM devices is harder than supporting x86 devices. We're trying to outline them.
<CyberManifest>
simpson: you're missing the point if it wasn't AMD, it would have been Intel, or IBM, we KNOW x86 inside and out, it's all been done before, ARM is this new fangled thing and no one wants to touch it because it's not KNOWN like x86 is
<samueldr>
ARM is far from new
<simpson>
ARM's not new-fangled. "ARM" stands for "Acorn RISC Machine"; this might be familiar if you know about UK computing history.
<CyberManifest>
samueldr: I know, but adoption rates is new
<samueldr>
is it?
<simpson>
I remember iPods being popular, and hacking on iPodLinux. One ARM core for Linux and one ARM core for decoding MP3.
<samueldr>
I don't know what's the point of this discussion, so I'm dropping off, but it seems quite clear that there is revisionist history and probably misconceptions flying around
<simpson>
samueldr: So what actually *is* the racking plan? Do we have one of those custom racks of Raspberry Pis that we could use?
<CyberManifest>
simpson: out of Apple, not out of ARM, no different than nvidia making x86 proprietary in areas
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<samueldr>
simpson: racking plan? you mean to build armv7l cache?
<simpson>
samueldr: Yeah! What could go wrong~
<samueldr>
simpson: just a bog standard aarch64 server which can run in 32 bit mode (via KVM), no need to contort ourselves into the actual limitations of those kind of boards
<samueldr>
simpson: the VM can be given IIRC up to 8 CPU cores, faster cores than usual, and lots of memory
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<simpson>
samueldr: Huh. We just need some round tuits to set it up, add it to the farm, configure desired packages?
<samueldr>
so it's really not comparable to a raspberry pi running in armv7l mode at that point
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<samueldr>
simpson: yes
<samueldr>
well, the round tuits are mostly formed, even
<samueldr>
simpson: if you look closely, 2020-04-25 we had +15257
<samueldr>
so for 6a627c416fe663ac16064f7a155afba9522910e4 there is quite some cache coverage!
<samueldr>
why'd it drop back down? AFAIK mostly because the machine wasn't running anymore, so it's all aborted jobs
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<samueldr>
simpson: oh right, I seem to remember an issue: hydra might not be able to cope distributing the jobs, though I'm not even sure if that is true
<simpson>
samueldr: Hm. I can imagine spending time testing some of these locally and seeing what happens. In case I can't find the right version of Pi in my piles of useful junk, is the Pi 4 the right choice for local development or is there something else you'd recommend?
<samueldr>
you can do it on an aarch64 pi, AFAIK, with either native compilation, or through a VM
<samueldr>
but then you're back to square one of having to build pretty much all stdenv right now
<samueldr>
AFAIK the main issue right now is it gets extremely painful to get started looking at actual issues
<growpotkin>
This is a longshot but any QMK users in here? I am struggling to get it running because of some GCC cross compilation issues
<growpotkin>
( since y'all are already on the ARM subject haha )
<simpson>
samueldr: So far, one obvious problem is that LLVM's checkPhase doesn't pass on Hydra. That would prevent a lot of stuff from building.
<simpson>
I suspect a *lot* of these are strange/spurious tests failing. Hardcoded for the wrong arch or etc.
<samueldr>
I guess :) I really am out of touch about the details, only know of the high level
<CyberManifest>
samueldr: In all fairness and by my own admission: my point of: Android, Mobile, Super Computing, Game Consoles, Vehicle Infotainment, Wearables, Robotics, Aerospace, etc.; is counter productive and unintuitive, by the very paradoxical notion that in almost all of those instances, Linux is running so I guess to some degree ARM isn't getting left behind. Perhaps it's just getting commercialized. And
<CyberManifest>
samueldr: so the adoption and tech are there, but the end user liberties aren't
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<CyberManifest>
Is NixOS not production friendly or something: I can't understand why This YouTuber would release this video: https://youtu.be/oPymb2-IXbg and then in less than a month release this one: https://youtu.be/EUHmEO3_zjU shouldn't NixOS have filled the void ?
<CyberManifest>
I mean why didn't he go from Arch to NixOS ?
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<samueldr>
you'll have to ask that person
<simpson>
It's production-ready, although I got the impression that you were aiming for personal use.
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<CyberManifest>
samueldr: well right now I'm asking if NixOS is production mission critical friendly
<samueldr>
many users here do use it for production
<notgne2>
it better be or I'm in some big shit
<CyberManifest>
simpson: I am personally, but I'm trying to understand the logic of it
<simpson>
If Linux is acceptable, then yeah, although "mission-critical" is a very misused phrase.
<CyberManifest>
notgne2: lol
<simpson>
CyberManifest: I dunno, it looks like somebody on Youtube likes to try out different distros? Some people are like that.
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<CyberManifest>
simpson: well lack of better words at the tip of my tongue at the moment
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<notgne2>
using NixOS can be very boring in that regard, you won't have any excuses to re-install and end up trying something new, and at least for me it was too easy to make things work how I want, which I guess can take the fun out of messing with configurations
<notgne2>
you learn a lot more about the software you use if you don't use NixOS in most cases
<CyberManifest>
simpson: yeah I get it, but he mentions in that second video the switch from arch to debian had to do with dependability on a production environment and I couldn't understand if he was singing praises of NixOS less than a month ago why he wouldn't have gone that route, taht's all.
<CyberManifest>
that's*
<notgne2>
I'd imagine him talking about production reliability is more of a "why not arch" and not a "why debian"
<CyberManifest>
notgne2: other direction
<CyberManifest>
notgne2: arch => debian
<simpson>
CyberManifest: Production requirements are different for different folks. Perhaps they have prior production experience with Debian.
<CyberManifest>
instead of arch => nixOS
<notgne2>
yeah exactly, that would be him explaining why he's leaving arch, not him explaining why he chose debian as an alternative
<CyberManifest>
simpson: nope, in that video he mentions that, that debian is new to him
<simpson>
notgne2: Yes, I would not imagine putting Arch in production!
<notgne2>
pretty much anything can be used with enough reliability (though not necessarily easily) for most in a production environment, besides arch
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<CyberManifest>
notgne2: he does expalin why he chose debian as an alternative though
<simpson>
CyberManifest: Perhaps, then, they don't actually have a production environment and they're talking about their "daily driver" or "workhorse" or whatever-you-want-to-call-it.
<CyberManifest>
simpson: he claims he does for his youtubing vids and such
<CyberManifest>
simpson: as a content createre
<CyberManifest>
creater*
<CyberManifest>
creator*
* CyberManifest
can't spell or type
<simpson>
CyberManifest: Yep, that'd be an instance of the latter. A production environment is a place where software is deployed; it's not usually a place where people sit and work. And I sympathize; I used to use Debian for that, too.
<nicolas[m]1>
I think you meant "content creature"
<CyberManifest>
simpson: DEBIAN IS NEW TO HIM
<notgne2>
nicolas[m]1 (chat.freenode.net): do they have those at the zoo?
<CyberManifest>
now yall are just messing with me
<CyberManifest>
crank yankers
<simpson>
CyberManifest: Sorry, I didn't watch all 40min of video.
<CyberManifest>
simpson: yeah he describes it in like the first 5min
<CyberManifest>
summarizes it
<simpson>
CyberManifest: I don't see how I'm supposed to answer questions about their mental state in a way which will explain to you why you should choose a particular distro.
<CyberManifest>
I just didn't understand the logic, like didn't know if he found a flaw in NixOS or something
<{^_^}>
[nixpkgs] @worldofpeace pushed 4 commits to release-20.09: https://git.io/JUcjA
<CyberManifest>
simpson: didn't know if it (NixOS) was sketchy on dependability (similar to rolling releases vs static releases)
<simpson>
Meh. I don't understand *your* logic here, but okay. People are not all the same. They have different preferences. They're not obligated to all use the same distro.
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<CyberManifest>
simpson: no, but users generally have a patter of reasons why
<CyberManifest>
pattern *
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<notgne2>
does anyone know how to use nix-instantiate to evaluate an expression given as an argument and print the output as JSON?
<samueldr>
again, you'll have to ask someone that has left NixOS for another distro, as here I'm pretty sure we can't guess why
<CyberManifest>
samueldr: right, so your argument would be it works well for dependability
<notgne2>
nvm I didn't realize `-E` and `--eval` were different arguments somehow
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<simpson>
CyberManifest: How do you measure dependability?
<samueldr>
I trust that I can depend on NixOS due to its inherent properties coming from Nix
<CyberManifest>
simpson: I'm guessing uptime, lack of fixing broken things
<simpson>
We already discussed one possibility: How often do system upgrades break the package manager? And multiple folks gave their testimonials.
<CyberManifest>
simpson: lack of time tweaking things rather than using things
<simpson>
CyberManifest: Uptime is dependent on the Linux kernel. The number of broken things is primarily a function of the number of things; you're going to have a better time focusing on things which are broken *for you*.
<CyberManifest>
simpson: so that's counterproductive to his assessment of debian as an alternative vs NixOS's
<CyberManifest>
simpson: what it's confusing
<CyberManifest>
why*
<notgne2>
Linux can crash, SystemD can crash, nginx can crash, X11 probably will crash, but NixOS doesn't doesn't make anything more likely to crash
<samueldr>
I don't know their argument, so I can't say
<lordcirth>
I switched to NixOS recently, and my main issues so far is when I need to run an unpackaged binary. But I am learning how to work with that
<notgne2>
I switched one of my servers over to NixOS 411 days ago, it has been up with zero failures for 411 days
<CyberManifest>
simpson: wrong, Uptime is not solely dependent on the kernel, it can be application specific, it can be package manager specific, hell it can even be configuration specific
<notgne2>
lordcirth (chat.freenode.net): for me I just run it all in `steam-run`
<lordcirth>
notgne2, interesting, I will try that
<CyberManifest>
simpson: I have a perfect example of that bspwm that froze my entire system with one little configuration change, unresponsive to TTY or anything
<notgne2>
it provides a ubuntu-y FHS environment with almost everything third party binaries will need
<CyberManifest>
notgne2: thank you for that testament :)
<simpson>
CyberManifest: *Completely* frozen? The mouse cursor was not moving, network I/O halted, SSH wouldn't respond? And what configuration did you change, exactly; bspwm?
<CyberManifest>
simpson: Completely
<lordcirth>
I'll also say that I broke my system 3 times, including completely borking fstab while switching my filesystems online, and every time I just rebooted to the previous config. It's wonderful
<CyberManifest>
simpson: right, nothing was reponsive
<simpson>
CyberManifest: Then that's Linux's fault. Happens. There's a way to report kernel bugs, although it takes effort.
<CyberManifest>
simpson: someone broke userland
<notgne2>
it could also be misconfiguration, for instance the OOM killer may have forgotten to do it's job
<CyberManifest>
simpson: no, beause on yanking the power and cyling up and changing the setting back everything was fine
<CyberManifest>
notgne2: in this instance it seemed to be a misconfiguration, but it could have been hardware overheating too, it was acting strange
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<juliusdeane>
how would I go about installing MATLAB on nixos? it's proprietary and doesn't seem to be in nixpkgs
<notgne2>
I can't say I've never seen a frozen system on NixOS, I've seen many, but it's always came down to OOM issues, power scaling issues, GPU drivers, or just using a way-too-unstable kernel version, NixOS has never contributed to it
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<CyberManifest>
notgne2: which drives home to the curious nature of that YouTuber not picking it over debian when he clearly liked it, it was just odd to me.
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<CyberManifest>
notgne2: it just seems to beg the question is all
<simpson>
notgne2: A couple days ago, I came out of RAM suspend and the system was largely unresponsive. The mouse cursor still moved, though. From this, I guessed that the GPU was wedged so that it couldn't do draws, but the hardware cursor still updates. Whose fault? Intel's, reboot.
<CyberManifest>
notgne2: only thing I can think of is click-bait
<simpson>
CyberManifest: Well, yes, you *are* begging the question. I'm not sure why you simply can't accept that people have preferences. Even if there were only one Linux distro ever, somebody would want it to be green instead of blue and then there would be two distros. That's life.
<notgne2>
and the same I'd imagine would apply to Debian, CentOS, etc, too, the main "reliability" factors left is how often apt decides to uninstall itself, or NixOS fails to switch correctly (purely theoretical, I've never seen this), or Arch loses all forms of compatibility during an update
<CyberManifest>
simpson: this wasn't a question of preference though, he hadn't used Debian before
<CyberManifest>
simpson: he had used NixOS to test and seemed to like it
<samueldr>
you'll have to ask that person
<notgne2>
it's also fun to switch around, I've used everything from Gentoo to Ubuntu, trying something new whenever something broke itself
<CyberManifest>
simpson: you clearly haven't watched any of the videos to understand this perspective
<simpson>
CyberManifest: Can you give me a timestamp where he explains why he chose Debian over NixOS? I'm currently at around 24min into the 34min video.
<samueldr>
simpson: wow, you don't value your own time :)
<notgne2>
and I guess it stands as a testament to NixOS that I haven't switched since, though for some this can be insanely boring, and put a stop to what could be a lot of discovery about the nature of different systems
<notgne2>
some people also like computers, like fixing them, and messing with them, I know a few people like that and would never recommend NixOS to them
<simpson>
samueldr: I sped it up by a few clicks, but indeed, I *could* be doing better things with my time. However, lately I've mostly just been depressed, so this is more productive than staring at a blank wall or screaming into a pillow.
<notgne2>
and as a result of them not using NixOS they've learnt a lot and can pull magic tricks out of nowhere to fix any broken system
<AmandaC>
Why not stare into a pillow, or scream at a black wall, simpson?
* AmandaC
decides to go off and halucinate instead of staring at chat windows
* simpson
wishes that were legal here
<AmandaC>
Its not here. I was speaking more of the kind where you stare at words on an e-ink screen and your brain halucinates what those words describe
<notgne2>
I would like to know where staring at chat windows is illegal
<AmandaC>
There's also the other kind of halucination I actually do, but I'm not concious for that one
<AmandaC>
( And I see much crazier stuff than I thnk I ever wouldon the illegal kinda... )
<samueldr>
the non-screaming part of pillow use
<notgne2>
depends on the hallucinations though
<simpson>
CyberManifest: Okay, so let's lay it out carefully. They say that Arch's updates are too large to roll out over limited bandwidth. Yes, this is an understandable problem. NixOS cannot do worse than Debian here: Any package that you'd download from a Nix binary cache, you'd download prebuilt from Debian, for around the same bandwidth use. But, for packages that can be built from source, one can trade bandwidth
<simpson>
for local CPU time.
<notgne2>
I've used pillows for both purposes at once before, it's a more time efficient method
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<simpson>
At no point, AFAICT, do they compare *NixOS* to Debian or Arch here; this sounds like purely a story of an Arch user making a switch to Debian.
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<CyberManifest>
simpson: notgne2: ok specifically starting at this time stamp and for like the next 2~3 minutes he mentions why describing "...using it as a work machine... " and "production"... https://youtu.be/EUHmEO3_zjU?t=143
<CyberManifest>
simpson: specifically listen for even 1 minute from that time stamp above ^
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<simpson>
CyberManifest: Yeah, I *did*. None of that is interesting from a distro-vs-distro point, other than to note that Nix-built applications are more reliable than snaps/flatpaks; snaps are only so important on Debian because even the "testing" flavor of Debian can be quite old.
<zeta_0>
i just added an overlay to set xmonad to the newest git revision, but i do i check this to make sure it is? is there some command or something that i can do?
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<zeta_0>
i set it to the unstable nix channel: https://dpaste.org/J2sf#L6 , but how can i be sure that its working correctly?
<CyberManifest>
simpson: he even stated he couldn't boot back in and even tried to chroot and such, which I would assume wouldn't be an issue with NixOS ?
<{^_^}>
[nixos-homepage] @samueldr opened pull request #522 → re-design: MVP all (most) pages → https://git.io/JUCvt
<zeta_0>
xmonad --version returned 0.15 before and after, so what ele can do to check ?
<simpson>
zeta_0: $(readlink $(which xmonad))
<nicolas[m]1>
zeta_0: xmonad is pinned to 0.15 on master
<simpson>
zeta_0: Actually, I worry that that's not foolproof. I mean for you to do something like https://bpa.st/CEYA and take note of the hash. By comparing hashes, you can know whether or not it's changed.
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<zeta_0>
nicolas[m]1: ya, but even before i upgraded to unstable in stable it showed 0.15 as well, so i needed another way to check that xmonad is in fact using the latest git revision.
<simpson>
CyberManifest: There's a utility, nixos-enter, which trivializes chroots.
<zeta_0>
anyways thanks for the help, i should be good to go, time to go to #xmonad
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<CyberManifest>
simpson: what about the need to even chroot in the first palce?
<simpson>
CyberManifest: It's in coreutils for a reason, I presume~
<CyberManifest>
simpson: I assume NixOS's roll back feature mitigates any failed boot attempts?
<simpson>
Sure, if you try booting a new kernel but it doesn't work, then you can just boot an older kernel.
<simpson>
And unlike in Debian, this won't just switch kernels, but the entire userland.
<CyberManifest>
simpson: again, makes you wonder why that guy traded for more of the same
<simpson>
CyberManifest: Not really, no; I've seen plenty of people make choices. Pretty sure that people will continue making choices. I don't see why I should be bothered by it.
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<CyberManifest>
simpson: then why even address my inquiries
<CyberManifest>
simpson: or my ponders
<simpson>
CyberManifest: Wait, that's an option!? I'm free!
<CyberManifest>
simpson: you say so
<CyberManifest>
simpson: but I'm sure you would have reasons
<CyberManifest>
and most likely your reasons would be apparent