<hexa->
we are a bit backed up on darwin builds :)
<gchristensen>
ofborg is probably choked on the failures
<jonringer>
more failing builds for the failure throne
<gchristensen>
lol
<sterni>
we dodged a bullet again though that it's llvmPackages_11.compiler-rt
<sterni>
we really did get lucky twice in a row that the issue doesn't affect the stdenv llvm package set
<jonringer>
this is why we need right to repair /s
<sterni>
just imagine what would've happened if we had the sdk update ready in time as well
<sterni>
with llvm 11 being the single point of failure for everything
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<jonringer>
thank you for giving me more reason to add llvm to the critical release package list :)
<jonringer>
for transparency, I care a lot about right to repair :)
<sterni>
I think it definitely deserves that
<sterni>
at least llvmPackages_{7,11}
<jonringer>
Yea, didn't really think about "darwin" when doing the list
<jonringer>
for linux, I think it's just about 3k builds.... for darwin it's the whole package set
<sterni>
to be fair I also make the surprised pikachu face everytime I change something close to clang 7 and am greeted by the darwin stdenv rebuild label
<sterni>
exactly
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<immae>
Hello! I developped a patch that permits to append an arbitrary-length path to any derivation (/nix/store/...-foo/abcd -> /nix/store/...-foo/xxx/abcd), the idea being that a regular nixos can build such a derivation with its closure, and then someone can download the closure of that derivation and put it in /opt/nix/store/... (for instance) and have everything running with a dumb "sed" command
<immae>
(including on binaries).
<immae>
Is that something that would be worth adding to nixpkgs (as an option) or should I just keep it to myself?
<immae>
NB: the patch is quite simple (and possibly I miss some cases), I’m just adding one stage to the stdenv stack
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<Synthetica>
Is there a way to see the monitor output of a test in real time? (for debug purposes)
<Synthetica>
s/monitor/graphical/
<hexa->
like nix-build -A nixosTests.foo?
<Synthetica>
yeah
<hexa->
ERROR: Could not find a version that satisfies the requirement ansible-core<2.12,>=2.11.0 (from ansible)
<hexa->
the ansible versioning is just …
<dotlambda>
hexa-: You should consider leaving such packages to those who claim to be their maintainers. If they break, that will incentivize their users to actually step up and maintain them. Unless you are an ansible user, then have fun :)
<hexa->
yeah, ansible users should just install via pip :)
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<endocrimes>
Are we planning on moving nixos-* irc from freenode to elsewhere given the current events?
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<gchristensen>
eelco and I are on a call now working on next steps
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<endocrimes>
cool. and also :( - sad to see freenode die
<endocrimes>
weird to see a place you've been on in some form for >10 years go away tbh
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<gchristensen>
Eelco and I are working on setting up an alternative to Freenode now, we'll have details soon
<gchristensen>
endocrimes: no kidding
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<etu>
gchristensen++
<{^_^}>
gchristensen's karma got increased to 472
<etu>
gchristensen: Have you considered OFTC? It's used by Debian and been stable for years.
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<gchristensen>
We've setup a nixos.org matrix server, and a new main channel at #nix:nixos.org -- registration on nixos.org isn't open, but it is open federation of course. Please join us there :)
<endocrimes>
Anyone have reccs for a matrix server to join? (don't wanna run my own to mostly chat with 1 group), and also any client reccs?
<siraben>
I wish gomuks made it so leave/join messages don't mark a channel as unread
<sterni>
are we confident that we are not setting us up for another discourse situation when we are paying element.io like 10$ for 5 users, but have a set of huge channels with a lot of people chatting via federation?
<andi->
IIRC that has been cleared up and is supported by element as users federate.
<siraben>
sterni: what discourse situation?
<andi->
siraben: likely referring to the mail limits
<sterni>
siraben: where we suddenly went over some email limit and were told we need to pay double or triple the amount
<siraben>
andi-: ah
<sterni>
we have a new plan which is alright now and the issue is resolved
<siraben>
oof
<sterni>
at least as long as we don't bump into our new limit I guess
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<domenkozar[m]>
well, welcome to element UX hell :-)
<domenkozar[m]>
hopefully this speeds up UX improvements
<domenkozar[m]>
the good news is that matrix integration is a lot better than IRC
<sterni>
> Guests aren't counted as active users, allowing them to preview rooms before signing up. Similarly you won't pay for federated users, registered on another server and chatting in the same rooms as you.
<{^_^}>
error: syntax error, unexpected ',', expecting ')', at (string):494:38
<sterni>
alright
<gchristensen>
sterni: yes, I've talked with ems.element.io's team about our use case and scale, and they're confident in the price.
<sterni>
gchristensen: glad to hear, it just sounded like a too good to be true loophole
<gchristensen>
that was my impression as well
<domenkozar[m]>
there's no way to future proof live, as freenode has demonstrated
<domenkozar[m]>
life*
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<domenkozar[m]>
gchristensen++
<{^_^}>
gchristensen's karma got increased to 473
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<andi->
sterni: I think for an operator perspective ther eisn't much of a difference of joining a channel or hosting a channel anyway. Both parties have (all of?) the state.
<MichaelRaskin>
Yes, but at some point they did restrict the room size for the lowest tier of servers
<sterni>
andi-: yeah, but that's why expected it to be billed tbh, it causes load regardless of if they are registered with you or not right?
<Profpatsch>
Okya, just my 50cts, but by top-down setting up a matrix server now the rest of the community trust in “due process” kinda goes before the dogs
<Profpatsch>
I mean I agree that matrix is better than IRC for rather obvious reasons, but I guess it won’t help the RFC process :P
<lassulus>
can I connect to matrix with my irc client? :D
<chvp>
matrixircd exists
<Profpatsch>
*X sent a long message*
<symphorien[m]>
if it's weechat, there is a matrix plugin, but I wouldn't recommend it :þ
<Dandellion>
<chvp "matrixircd exists"> "exists"
<Profpatsch>
I do hope the freenode bridge will quickly move over to libera.chat after this
<ehmry>
I trust OFTC more than ex-freednode folks at this point
<qyliss>
Something had to be done, IMO=
<qyliss>
I'm not sure moving to Matrix was the right idea, but staying on Freenode while the ship is clearly sinking shouldn't have been the default option
<qyliss>
And I'm glad action is being taken at all.
<siraben>
qyliss: this isn't premature right? some people in some channels have been saying it's just panic and nothing to worry about
<qyliss>
those people are wrong, imo
<hexa->
I don't think it is
<qyliss>
a few days ago, when the news broke, doing anything about it was premature
<adisbladis>
The worry is legit.
<adisbladis>
But the whole rule-by-decree thing that just happened here is not OK
<adisbladis>
If this change isn't RFC worthy I don't know what is.
<qyliss>
at this point, things have got to the point where it's time to panic, becasue there's no longer hope that the Freenode situation can be resolved
<siraben>
How come worry? Is it the corporate takeover?
<hexa->
adisbladis##
<hexa->
adisbladis++
<{^_^}>
adisbladis's karma got increased to 151
<qyliss>
every freenode staffer looks like they're going to leave
<qyliss>
this isn't going to be freenode any more, it's going to be some new place
<qyliss>
so there's no reason for that to be our home by default just because they own the domain name
<siraben>
the new management is definitely hostile?
<domenkozar[m]>
Profpatsch: I don't understand what RFC has to do with this situation?
<qyliss>
siraben: definitely
<qyliss>
Something had to be done, today. There's no reason we should have preferred inaction given current events.
<siraben>
part of me was skeptical at first but it seems pretty clear now, sad to see things liek this
<siraben>
like*
<qyliss>
the decision should be analyzed, and the choice of move should be justified, and we should be open to a different long term outcome if that's what the community once
<qyliss>
*wants
<qyliss>
how did I typo that lol
<hexa->
heh, it sounds pretty close :D
<Taneb>
qyliss: like me, it seems you think phonetically
<qyliss>
Taneb: the weird thing is I didn't used to
<qyliss>
but I've been making a lot of typos like that recently.
<sterni>
I don't think a different long term outcome is feasible at this point
<sterni>
de facto the whole thing has been steered towards matrix and any revision to that risks fragmenting the community even further
<Taneb>
Any change, including to matrix, risks fragmenting the community further
<sterni>
ofc yeah
<sterni>
so if we are to make a move we need to make it decisively to minimize that
<qyliss>
no change would also have fragmented the community
<siraben>
what was the most active #nixos-* channel on freenode?
<qyliss>
lots of people moved to libera the instant it was opened.
<qyliss>
as it stands, we already have close to 50 people in #nixos on libera, despite the clear move to Matrix
<qyliss>
so fragmentation was inevitable.
<domenkozar[m]>
there's more than a thousand users on discord as well
<sterni>
still establishing some consensus would've been good before announcing something
<siraben>
what about bridging? libera <-> matrix
<qyliss>
siraben: not currently possible aiui
<qyliss>
but libera is less than a day old
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<siraben>
What are we worried will change if we stay on freenode?
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<MichaelRaskin>
NixOS channels _did_ use relationship with staff to handle abuse situations
<siraben>
as in, what will actually happen to #nixos- directly as a result?
<siraben>
I'm a bit unclear on that
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<qyliss>
yeah, a good relationship with staff is very important for any reasonably big IRC channel
<siraben>
ah, just saw the matrix (bridge lag)
<siraben>
and for smaller channels, is there any direct worry?
<gchristensen>
yes, we very often used very good relationships with the staff to deal with issues and make sure things were going okay
<siraben>
I see
<qyliss>
depends: for small private channels, your private access lists are now in the hands of who knows who
<siraben>
and there's no more staff contacts I presume
<chvp>
bridging to matrix is possible, there's just no public bridge
<gchristensen>
I saw all my good staff contacts evaporate
<qyliss>
for smaller public channels, you're probably just relying on unproven people with no experience to keep the network running
<chvp>
(I'm using my own bridge to connect to it)
<MichaelRaskin>
No signs that the empty shell company can manage the servers or even handle some of the sponsors switching to support libera.chat without breaking the service completely
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<FireFly>
gchristensen: sorry about the whole.. network blowing up thing :\
<gchristensen>
FireFly: I understand and completely appreciate everything you've ever done
<gchristensen>
it is hard when your hand is forced :)
<FireFly>
yes
<niksnut>
+1
<qyliss>
FireFly++
<{^_^}>
FireFly's karma got increased to 2
<gchristensen>
FireFly++
<{^_^}>
FireFly's karma got increased to 3
<qyliss>
the real question is will the karma scores be migrated
<FireFly>
I don't know if I deserve that so much as the other staffers tbf, but thanks nonetheless :)
<qyliss>
I don't see other (former) staffers in here :P
<siraben>
FireFly++
<{^_^}>
FireFly's karma got increased to 4
<qyliss>
if I've missed any, I'll ++ them as well :P
<siraben>
jess++
<{^_^}>
jess's karma got increased to 6
<endocrimes>
FireFly++
<{^_^}>
FireFly's karma got increased to 5
<endocrimes>
jess++
<{^_^}>
jess's karma got increased to 7
<gchristensen>
FireFly: well. the message applies to just about every staffer I've worked with :)
<eyJhb>
jess++ FireFly++
<{^_^}>
FireFly's karma got increased to 0o6
<{^_^}>
jess's karma got increased to 8
* FireFly
nods
<FireFly>
sad to see pretty much the place where I grew up fall apart
<FireFly>
but ahwell
<gchristensen>
in fact, if you feel inclined to pass it along ... I would appreciate that. I grew up on Frenode in a lot of ways
<gchristensen>
heh
<FireFly>
hm, can do!
<qyliss>
i've been struggling for ways to make my appreciation for staff known without spamming
<FireFly>
I think one of the more endearing things that have been clear to me over this past week, especially once rasengan took everything public in #freenode, is how strong the support from the community has been for staff's side of things
<eyJhb>
I guess the communities will be scattered in all directions now... :( Sad to see. However I have not been on Freenode for as long as you have
<FireFly>
I mean, it's perhaps not surprising, but nonetheless at least I've felt a lot of appreciation
<qyliss>
I can count on one hand how many people I've seen blaming staff for this
<qyliss>
compared to hundreds supporting
<FireFly>
yeah
<sorear>
except for nixos every community i'm in is moving to either libera or to oftc (which I was already on)
<FireFly>
eyJhb: indeed.. we'll see how this pans out
<sorear>
(guess I'll have to figure out matrix at some point ... it was overdue tbh)
<FireFly>
I suspect a bunch will move to matrix, some to libera, some to oftc.. some will stay
<eyJhb>
As long as it isn't Gitter, I will be happy.. Or Slack...
<ajs124>
eyJhb: gitter is matrix now
<MichaelRaskin>
Gitter is just a roundabout way of moving to Matrix in two steps
<MichaelRaskin>
Not yet fully Matrix
<ajs124>
are you sure?
<eyJhb>
The trend with Gitter, Slack, whatever is typically there will be no repiles in days.
<ajs124>
I thought they completed the gitter <-> matrix merge
<Synthetica>
is there a way to get a test's name from the test script? I'm trying to unify two tests to use the same script, but they need ever so slightly different setup
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<averell>
adoptopenjdk 8-16 also have this and no override, so direct patch would be cooler because it might work there too.
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<fzakaria_>
What do you mean direct patch ?
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<fzakaria_>
btw is this IRC channel moving cause of the whole freenode thing?
<philipp>
Everything nixos is moving to matrix right now.
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<Irenes>
is anybody working on packaging weechat-matrix-rs
<Irenes>
because if not I will do it
<fzakaria_>
philipp: so I'm on an IRC client that won't work anymore? I don't think there's the reverse bridge.
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<philipp>
There will most probably be a bridge, things are still moving. Everybody is confused. libera.chat doesn't know if they want to bridge to matrix.org oftc has been mentioned. There will be a solution in the end.
<fzakaria_>
Cool; I just got caught up with the whole fiasco (very unfortunate and shameful)
<fzakaria_>
averell: For now, I just submitted JDK8 to get buy-in on the fix. I can upstream similar patches afterwards.
<fzakaria_>
It's crazy how deep software relies on FHS
<abathur>
<3 Irenes
<{^_^}>
Irenes's karma got increased to 1
<qyliss>
Irenes: that'd be awesome
<Irenes>
okay
<Irenes>
let me get started :)
<Irenes>
I only just got back into using IRC properly less than a year ago, and I'd forgotten how nice the tooling is
<Irenes>
weechat in particular is quite nice
<qyliss>
IRC tooling being nice is not a popular opinion at the moment :P
<qyliss>
I just like that I understand how to do everything already
<Irenes>
so like... I honestly kind of bounced off Matrix, to be honest? I think the people developing it are good people and I support their efforts
<Irenes>
I really like the encryption functionality (although I'm disappointed that weechat-matrix-rs doesn't yet support cross signing)
<Irenes>
I realize there are like zero people out there who are good at managing long-term keys, but it happens that I am so I like a system that lets me leverage that :)
<Irenes>
that bug where the official client's UI locks up waiting on network activity hit me hard though
<Irenes>
and like... I wish they had stabilized the protocol before launching the thing
<Irenes>
launch-and-iterate works great for centralized, corporate projects
<philipp>
I'm having high hopes that the events of today might lead to matrix having nicer tooling in the near future.
<Irenes>
with community driven projects it results in none of the third party tooling being able to keep up with the changes
<Irenes>
yeah that's fair too!
<Irenes>
anyway client choice is a really nice thing and I'm super happy that IRC isn't the only "modern" protocol that has client choice
<Irenes>
weechat has never positioned itself as just IRC
<Irenes>
I hope the Matrix functionality reaches a point where there's fewer changes and things can settle down a bit
<Irenes>
you're right, today's events could help :)
<fzakaria_>
I'm on Matrix for some other communities using the Elemental client; it's just slow.
<fzakaria_>
I also constantly get these spam like messages I dont understand "SaslServ (@freenode_SaslServ:matrix.org) wants to chat"
<Irenes>
that's related to the IRC bridge
<Irenes>
you should accept the chat
<Irenes>
it probably wants to tell you you're logged out or something
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<MichaelRaskin>
Irenes: Matrix is pretty good at graceful degradation, actually. Can't deny that…
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<Irenes>
yeah, again, the UI issue made it impossible for me to continue using it for the time being
<MichaelRaskin>
Stabilisation is … unlikely, non-server-tied identities are slowly being discussed and will arrive one day…
<Irenes>
the alternate clients I looked at aren't yet in NixOS stable
<Irenes>
I think for my purposes, as someone who likes stability more than functionality, using a console-based client is just right
<philipp>
Have you taken a look at gomuks already?
<Irenes>
ah, no I hadn't
<MichaelRaskin>
If you want encryption in Matrix, you might want to look at pantalaimon
<MichaelRaskin>
(E2EE-adding proxy)
<MichaelRaskin>
To unbundle working with streams of text messages from proper encryption support
<Irenes>
thank you. I've been pointed at it :)
<Irenes>
I think it is probably not the approach I'm going to run with but I'm glad it exists
<Irenes>
that does seem like it is a good thing for the ecosystem
<Dandellion>
Yeah it's very nice to add encryption support to basically anything :)