<LnL>
whoo, hopefully my rust update also works on darwin
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<nhill>
Do most nixosers use zfs?
<gchristensen>
not most
<nhill>
Trying to decide between zfs/btrfs/ext
<nhill>
I'll go with ext4 for familiarity, unless you guys all use something else
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<simpson>
ext4 is a good general-purpose workhorse. I have heard things about ZFS for many many years but never used it. XFS is a thing, and I use it on my storage machine, but feelings are...mixed, to say the least.
<maurer>
If you don't have a good reason to pick a specific filesystem, just use ext4
<simpson>
btrfs is still in my "don't use if you value your data" boat, but I haven't looked at it in years and years, and maybe they've stopped having those issues.
<maurer>
it will have the fewest gotchas
<gchristensen>
I always default to ext4
<gchristensen>
+1 to maurer, and its gotchas are generally pretty well understood
<maurer>
(I say this as someone who is doing root-on-zfs - there are features and good reasons to use the other filesystems, but if you don't need them, don't pay for it in maintenance/configuration burden)
<nhill>
I will go with ext4 just for familiarity and having one less variable in this experiment
<nhill>
Do most of y'all encrypt? I think I will avoid that at first for similar reasons
<maurer>
Encryption is pretty stable/easy these days, but if you don't need it vov
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<gchristensen>
is that zoidberg?
<simpson>
It'll reliably add a little CPU overhead, although usually not latency, to disk operations.
<maurer>
It's supposed to be a shrug
<gchristensen>
oh I get it. I'm just a bigger futurama fan than shrug fan
* simpson
why not Zoidberg? (\ ( ;,;) ,/)
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<once_upon_a_nixo>
woop woop woop
<dnovosel>
nhill: For a laptop, especially one you bring around places, I would suggest encryption. For a desktop machine, probably less important.
<nhill>
dnovosel: yeah, I plan on using it on my laptop, but I'm going to do several installs on a dummy computer until I switch over on my daily comp
<once_upon_a_nixo>
Give me some downsides to NixOS please aside from learning the language. Reading thus far it appears too good to be true.
<gchristensen>
once_upon_a_nixo: nixos uses more disk space
<LnL>
heh
<gchristensen>
once_upon_a_nixo: nixos requires you to solve problems up front that other tools let you pretend don't exist
<samueldr>
immutability of store can be a bother at first
<symphorien>
documentation is scarce
<once_upon_a_nixo>
how so samueldr?
<LnL>
I'd say it makes simple things slightly harder, but as a reward certain very hard things become trivial
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<gchristensen>
LnL++
<dnovosel>
nhill: In general, the cost to encrypt SSDs for normal usage is not noticable. And peace of mind for someone else seeing your data is pretty swell. I've had two laptops stolen over the years, and both were encrypted, so I worried less about someone getting my data.
<samueldr>
let's say that you wanted to "just add a UCM file to alsa", well you have to patch the derivation for it, and anything isuing it will be rebuilt upwards in the tree
<simpson>
once_upon_a_nixo: Many language-specific package managers do not play well with Nix at first. We end up taming them and providing our own ways to get their packages into environments, usually.
<samueldr>
(UCM files are kind of like configuration files afaiui)
<once_upon_a_nixo>
gchristensen: example of problems that otherwise you'd pretend don't exist with other tooling?
<gchristensen>
once_upon_a_nixo: `pip install` isn't deterministic. nix: you pretty much have to solve that now if you want to package a python thing. other distros: meh, its probably fine.
<gchristensen>
nix's plus: it'll keep working like that ~forever. other distros: bitrot
<samueldr>
forever^[citation needed] :)
<gchristensen>
samueldr: forever for small values of forever. Eelco's thesis still builds for example
<samueldr>
forever is a long time! but working for the duration of at least our generations is a safe bet :)
<samueldr>
ah, a downside of nixos, but pretty much anywhere geeks congregate: free snark
<samueldr>
not to be confused with free snacks :)
<samueldr>
hmmm, snark may not be the word I was thinking of...
<gchristensen>
once_upon_a_nixo: one of my favorite things about NixOS is how stinking smart everyone is around here
<Ralith>
snarks can be pretty delicios
<Ralith>
not very filling, though
<once_upon_a_nixo>
LnL: interesting, what kind of things that are easy become more difficult?
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<LnL>
a simple example is downloading a binary "without" dependencies
<once_upon_a_nixo>
simpson: but if you stick with NixOS you're not troubled with other package managers most likely?
<simpson>
once_upon_a_nixo: Ideally, yes.
<LnL>
you have to explicitly package it so it can find glibc
<once_upon_a_nixo>
gchristensen: ah interesting - how do you solve that kind of thing then with pip? End up packaging all the pip packages?
<LnL>
but as an upside adding a ppa won't magically break apt because of missing symbols in a libstdc++ package that was replaced in place
<LnL>
(this happened to a colleague today)
<LnL>
:D
<gchristensen>
zoinks
<once_upon_a_nixo>
gchristensen: that's a good thing! Lacking documentation but good community support can be better. Is the community large? This channel seems decently populated.
<gchristensen>
once_upon_a_nixo: indeed :)
<samueldr>
not a problem with nixo, but here goes : the other day I was debugging grub issues with the install image of nixos... with a custom patched grub and it was a cakewalk, always a fresh iso as would have been built by the maintainers!
<gchristensen>
here is a very hard thing made trivial: making correct installer images, or PXE images, or server images, from scratch, on your laptop, in a couple minutes
<samueldr>
using the latest git revision was as simple as changing the source files
<gchristensen>
very hard made easy: perfectly rolling back software upgrades
<once_upon_a_nixo>
LnL: ouch hah. How does NixOS then handle say packages that require older versions of libraries? it just installs them with their unique hashes and no issues, etc.?
<once_upon_a_nixo>
Are there issues with different versions of a library when configuration files change formats? or those track as expected across versions?
<gchristensen>
config files are typically in the store as well, and are also rolled back / rolled forward
<samueldr>
(user's configs are not, by default, though)
<samueldr>
(that's something that's being worked on!)
<gchristensen>
yeah, a bit of nuance there
<once_upon_a_nixo>
samueldr: yeah actually how is the debugging of NixOS issues? nice! So your modifications just resulted in a fresh ISO?
<samueldr>
every modification a fresh iso
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<once_upon_a_nixo>
gchristensen: Ah very nice. You can do that within NixOS by nature huh?
<samueldr>
(filled my hard drive a couple of times!)
<gchristensen>
yea
<once_upon_a_nixo>
samueldr: and just run a command to output the ISO?
<once_upon_a_nixo>
neat neat
<once_upon_a_nixo>
gchristensen, samueldr: I see. So stuff such as dotfiles would need to be manually rolled back/forth?
<once_upon_a_nixo>
samueldr: hah wow, what capacity?
<LnL>
depends on how much of that you manage with nix
<samueldr>
120GB SSD :| not dedicated only to the nixos store
<once_upon_a_nixo>
Are the ISOs directly writable to a USB or disc for installation or more of a process?
<samueldr>
they're isohybrid (if it rings a bell) and handles MBR and UEFI boot right either as optical discs or usb drives
<clever>
once_upon_a_nixo: the nixos ISO's include a gpt partition table and can just be dd'd directly to the root of a usb drive
<once_upon_a_nixo>
LnL: fair. When you install something with nix, are there patches applied that are Nix specific? such as getting aronud the absence of FHS or is there support for that which needs no patching?
<once_upon_a_nixo>
samueldr: ah excellent, as one would expect these days basically.
<once_upon_a_nixo>
Very nice clever
<clever>
once_upon_a_nixo: yeah, some programs have nix specific patches, which are usually kept in the nixpkgs repo
<once_upon_a_nixo>
Also, thank you all for the input.
<once_upon_a_nixo>
clever: ah, makes sense. Seems like there are a lot of contributors for nixpkgs
<LnL>
yeah sometimes, some projects just do the right thing if you give them a --prefix but a lot of them don't
<gchristensen>
once_upon_a_nixo: a few hundred contributors each month
<jmc>
In some examples I see default.nix containing a tuple, and some containing a lambda. How is the expression in default.nix handled if it isnt always the same type?
<clever>
jmc: line 115 deals with `callPackage lambda` vs `callPackage ./default.nix`, and then i believe line 75 deals with the default.nix containing either a lambda, or something else
<once_upon_a_nixo>
clever: great example. In that example, where is 'translations' by default then? a mutable nix directory somewhere?
<clever>
once_upon_a_nixo: the patch redirects it into going into a directory somewhere under $HOME, which the application already used for other writable data
<clever>
i think they wanted to cache the translations between users, but that requires the installation directory to be world-writable
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<once_upon_a_nixo>
clever: and does the installation of that package persist across users? or when another user installs the same version (derivation?) of multimc does it use the package already on the system?
<once_upon_a_nixo>
Perhaps better worded, if two users install the same package, it installs twice correct? Is there any notion of a global package?
<jmc>
clever: thank you very much. is there a place where things like this are documented?
<clever>
once_upon_a_nixo: if you install it system-wide with configuration.nix and systemPackages, the executable will be available to everybody, but the translations are per-user, so it will probably have to re-download
<samueldr>
once_upon_a_nixo: as long as it's the same store path, anything in the store won't be re-downloaded, until GC-ed
<clever>
once_upon_a_nixo: if one user installs it with nix-env, then the executables are basially private, and nobody else gets them automatically
<samueldr>
GC: garbage collection
<clever>
jmc: i dont think the internals of callPackage are documented anywhere
<once_upon_a_nixo>
Very good.
<once_upon_a_nixo>
clever: nix-env seems neat to isolate environments for different use cases. One for x, one for y, etc. Are environments completely separate?
<once_upon_a_nixo>
samueldr: Does gc run manually only?
<once_upon_a_nixo>
How does NixOS handle this case: Old application needs old libraries. No longer receives updates. Still wish to receive updates for the rest of the system (say within compatability, so updated kernel)
<clever>
once_upon_a_nixo: by default, every user has his own environment
<once_upon_a_nixo>
samueldr: but default is manual? Are older versions available for a long time since it's based on source control commit?
<clever>
once_upon_a_nixo: but if 2 users attempt to install the same package, they will automatically share the files, which is also why everything must be immutable
<samueldr>
oh ah, the binary cache from nixos is a different thing, that binary cache has a huuuuuuuuuuuuge cache right now of older revisions
<once_upon_a_nixo>
clever: ah can a user have multiple environments? Right - no user can be changing things around.
<samueldr>
so no need to rebuild for older revisions going far back
<samueldr>
BUT, the way it's done, even if it got nuked somehow, you're "just" a long build away
<clever>
once_upon_a_nixo: you could manually create a second profile, but you will have to mess with $PATH to switch between them on a per-shell, and some stuff may not like it
<clever>
once_upon_a_nixo: or you could change the ~/.nix-profile symlink to swap the profile out on the entire user
<once_upon_a_nixo>
samueldr: right but say the old versions were destroyed or what have you or maybe it's a local staging repository thing. Ah right, great, you just answered that. Thanks.
<clever>
which would have less problems
<once_upon_a_nixo>
samueldr: are there a lot of cache servers?
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<clever>
once_upon_a_nixo: cache.nixos.org doesnt have any garbage collection, so anything that has been built by hydra.nixos.org, will persist, forever
<once_upon_a_nixo>
clever: interesting, how else could you do say, one environment with customizations for running a game and it's requirements and another environment for running another kind of application?
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<samueldr>
as most users do, the cache is a "black box" offered by nixos, but in reality it's hosted on S3, so it should be geographically redundant and all positive and negative things from S3
<clever>
once_upon_a_nixo: and locally, as an example of what GC can do, i have 7 copies of firefox in my nix store, for versions 51, 55, 53, 56, 55, 57, and 57
<once_upon_a_nixo>
clever: wow, won't they run out of space at some point?
<clever>
once_upon_a_nixo: thats part of why my nix store is 61gig in size, lol
<once_upon_a_nixo>
samueldr: ah, how is that funded? must be a fair amount of space and traffic. If not now, at some point.
<clever>
once_upon_a_nixo: in general, you dont make a profile for a game, and a profile for applications
<Ralith>
it's really weird how nix-shell invokes `failureHook`
<clever>
once_upon_a_nixo: you patch both, so they can co-exist in the same profile
<once_upon_a_nixo>
samueldr: does NIxOS run the only official cache at this point?
<clever>
once_upon_a_nixo: yeah
<samueldr>
"black box" for me :D url goes in, cached artifact comes out
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<once_upon_a_nixo>
samueldr: haha surely like you said for most users. Just curious. Don't want someone to end up not having access to the packages. What team develops and runs NixOS and the servers, etc.?
<gchristensen>
once_upon_a_nixo: what would it even mean for there to be multiple official binary caches?
<samueldr>
(I don't know the details, I'm assuming some benevolent entity makes this a non-issue for the nixos org)
<gchristensen>
once_upon_a_nixo: there are a few people who have access to maintain the build and cache infra
<gchristensen>
no formal team right now
<once_upon_a_nixo>
gchristensen: Multiple sources to retrieve the data from? some kind of load balancing and point of failure reduction similar to mirrors for other distributions? Though with the packages being able to be built from source, it's not a dire issue in that sense but binary vs build is often lopsided for time to install.
<gchristensen>
ah
<once_upon_a_nixo>
perhaps 'old paradigm' thinking but seemed relevant still.
<gchristensen>
well, mirrors could be setup and not violate the trust model
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<adisbladis[m]>
once_upon_a_nixo: There has been talks of (and even some code!) using ipfs for binary cache
<gchristensen>
once_upon_a_nixo: however, the cache is hosted on Cloudfront and is geodistributed by default, and has pretty good availability
<jmc>
/quit
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<adisbladis[m]>
Except speeds are not great in asia..
<once_upon_a_nixo>
clever: you patch the packages so they can coexist? is there no other way to isolate environments outside the symlinking you previously mentioned?
<clever>
once_upon_a_nixo: what do you think would break if you dont isolate things?
<gchristensen>
adisbladis[m]: asia and australia :(
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<adisbladis[m]>
gchristensen: Ohh right. The first time I installed nix I was actually in New Zealand. Super slow :/
<once_upon_a_nixo>
clever: different applications needing different versions of the same library perhaps, or some other application specific peculiarity?
<clever>
once_upon_a_nixo: libraries never go into your profile, and all applications refer to libraries by absolute path
<once_upon_a_nixo>
gchristensen: ah interesting, so then the trust model is just packages signed by and accessed by the few developers?
<clever>
once_upon_a_nixo: so different versions can co-exist trivially
<adisbladis[m]>
Imo non-cloudfront mirrors would be so nice
<gchristensen>
once_upon_a_nixo: the packages are signed by a cache.nixos.org key
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<adisbladis[m]>
once_upon_a_nixo: Packages are automatically signed by hydra
<gchristensen>
adisbladis[m]: it can be done very simply, I could even help administer it. just need storage and bandwidth
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<once_upon_a_nixo>
adisbladis[m]: very neat!
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<NixOS_GitHub>
[nixpkgs] matthewbauer opened pull request #34990: libbsd: update darwin patch (master...libbsd-mac-0.8.7) https://git.io/vAZBr
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<once_upon_a_nixo>
clever: That works. I guess you could have a user per application though too if you wanted to isolate things or something. Maybe if you have an experimental build process where your home is going to be a mess from things and then another environment for your standard stuff?
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<clever>
once_upon_a_nixo: yeah, you can do that
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<clever>
once_upon_a_nixo: you can also use nix-shell to load things up without adding them to your profile
<clever>
once_upon_a_nixo: `nix-shell -p firefox` should give you a shell where firefox can be ran, without actually installing firefox into any profile
<samueldr>
e.g.: want to run htop once and then not worry about it? `nix-shell -p htop --run htop`
<clever>
yep
<clever>
and nix also makes it trivial to do other fun things
<samueldr>
this is especially useful for tools like nix-info, which you don't generally need to have installed, or for running a dmidecode once on a device
<clever>
this re-compiles htop with debug symbols, then runs that variant
<samueldr>
TIL and I like that
<once_upon_a_nixo>
clever: oh that's interesting. Lot of use cases for that too like the htop recompilation or dmidecode that otherwise you'd not think about.
<clever>
all of them are in the same $PATH, and conflict
<samueldr>
for p in $buildInputs ; do $p/bin/ruby -v ; done
<samueldr>
works only when you only require rubies though
<gchristensen>
y'all are getting silly
<catern>
hmmm
<clever>
gchristensen: yeah, lol
<once_upon_a_nixo>
Aha I see.
<catern>
can I use Nix with Python to somehow allow me to import multiple versions of a package?
<once_upon_a_nixo>
Number 1 reason to switch to NixOS from some other Linux distribution?
<samueldr>
once_upon_a_nixo: nixos is on my personal computers and workstation, but only nix is used at work for development and production use
<clever>
once_upon_a_nixo: i use nixos on all new installs i make, and all of the work systems
<once_upon_a_nixo>
samueldr: Intriguing, why not NixOS at work?
<once_upon_a_nixo>
clever: very neat - works well in all cases? I can imagine duplicating environments exactly is quite helpful.
<samueldr>
inertia, if/when we change architecture it'll switch, all new bits are already starting to use nix as much as possible
<clever>
once_upon_a_nixo: very, i was able to trivially spin up an extra 40 mirrors over a weekend
<once_upon_a_nixo>
samueldr: Good to hear, the reception of it by others seems good then?
<catern>
samueldr: if you're willing to say i'd be curious where you work
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<once_upon_a_nixo>
clever: very nice; that's got to be very useful for desktop deployments too.
<samueldr>
I technically do consulting work with a business for another business, no big names all local to ~ québec city
<samueldr>
web development / a bit of devops for one product
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<samueldr>
once_upon_a_nixo: with differing technical backgrounds all seems to like the fact that nix-shell on their macOS and different linuces all makes them free from dependency and installation hell
<samueldr>
only native dependencies to install: their IDEs and tools (if they don't want to install via nix), virtualbox, nix; everything else is handled via nix-shell
<chessai>
once_upon_a_nixo: samueldr: my company hates Nix and NixOS. I had to fight to be allowed to set up a Hydra.
<once_upon_a_nixo>
samueldr: do you work on NixOS, etc.? Contribute is probably a better word here.
<clever>
samueldr: heh, quebec is so close to me, that it causes issues with my cellphone, lol
<clever>
samueldr: i'm in NB, and if i leave the phone timezone on automatic, it will randomly grab a quebec tower, and shift the clock by an hour
<samueldr>
fun! :) not québec city though
<clever>
samueldr: ive had the alarm clock just not go off one day, because the shifting dodged the set time
<samueldr>
ouch
<clever>
samueldr: and ive had the alarm go off 3 times within a 2 hour span
<once_upon_a_nixo>
samueldr: The ability to go between the OSes too if needed is pretty significant. The setup being basically run your file.
<chessai>
once_upon_a_nixo: samueldr: My direct boss thought it was a great idea. I asked the IT/hardware provisioning guy to get me a DNS for the hydra, and he said "hydra? what are you, a nazi?" (he was joking around, but the whole company does hate nix)
<samueldr>
I got nix in the stack the moment it saved our bacon by trivially allowing us to use a specific software version that didn't exhibit issues (PDF generation from HTML)
<once_upon_a_nixo>
chessai: why the nix/nixOS hate then?
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<chessai>
once_upon_a_nixo: samueldr: Luckily, our Haskell application at work uses reflex-platform, so we *have* to use nix in some capacity. For our largest project, it's a huge help.
<clever>
samueldr: i also use nix for pdf generation and data processing
<samueldr>
fear from change I would guess, I had a colleague (project lead) initially be apprehensive and only going on with it because (he is a friend) he knew how level-headed my tech choices are
<samueldr>
clever: knowing you, you're generating PDF using actual nix code :^)
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<clever>
samueldr: ive written a nix expression and some haskell code, that took nearly 600mb worth of PDF files, extracted the data from them into a database, filtered&sorted it, then spit out a PDF file of the results
<once_upon_a_nixo>
samueldr: That sounds like it came through at a good time. It is certainly a different approach but seems far more reasonable in the end really.
<clever>
samueldr: and the entire process was started with a single `nix-build`
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<clever>
samueldr: and if i modify any of the code, nix just re-computes whatever it has to, using the normal dep tree
<chessai>
once_upon_a_nixo: samueldr: They hate NixOS because, once upon a time, a person who used to work there was really into Nix/NixOS, and saw the great potential in it, but was very new. But he tconvinced everyone in the company to switch to NixOS, after probably an amazing pitch for it, but they were unable to handle Nix/NixOS due to the relatively high learning curve and off-colourness compared to Ubuntu/CentOS,etc
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<clever>
samueldr: pandoc is the primary way of creating the pdf's, and lately, i have been using HaTeX (a haskell package)
<clever>
samueldr: its a latex monad
<chessai>
once_upon_a_nixo: samueldr: they've even gone so far as to make me switch to using a work laptop with Ubuntu as the Host OS, and I have to VM NixOS now
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<once_upon_a_nixo>
ouch hah
<adisbladis[m]>
chessai: Haha sounds like my colleagues old company. They had a similar guy.
<once_upon_a_nixo>
Thanks all for the input, perhaps will drop by for more Q&A. Cheers!
<samueldr>
ours was for provincial government tax slips generation, and we pretty much had to go the HTML/CSS route as it was the easiest to grasp (already had experience) in the time we had (it was already late)
<adisbladis[m]>
once_upon_a_nixo: In my current company I eased it in.
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<chessai>
once_upon_a_nixo: samueldr: it was a little annoying, as I have recently bought a laptop and use NixOS as the host OS, and it's more powerful than the laptop they're making me switch to
<adisbladis[m]>
Started by making CI reproducible and went from there
<chessai>
once_upon_a_nixo: samueldr: NixOS is a beautiful, amazing thing, but they just don't see it that way
<samueldr>
:| where I work it's bring your own OS, as long as it's macOS or linux
<clever>
samueldr: the PDF's ive been dealing with are unclaimed property reports
<clever>
samueldr: lately, the data is in text files with a fixed width, spaces for padding
<samueldr>
I prefer the production side of the hose, scraping is fun but can be maddening
<clever>
chessai: just install ubuntu inside virtualbox, and hit the fullscreen button
<clever>
chessai: and dont tell them :P
<samueldr>
oh, CI! I just, as in yesterday, implemented gitlab-ci using dockerTools
<catern>
does nixops support incremental rollout?
<samueldr>
chessai: install the ubuntu theme and don't tell them :D
<catern>
heck, does NixOS support incremental rollout?
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<catern>
can I have some services on an old version and some services on a new one?
<clever>
chessai: do you mean restarting one machine at a time, or pushing updates out to an already running machine?
<adisbladis[m]>
samueldr: <3
<chessai>
samueldr: clever: that seems like a good idea
<clever>
catern: oops, ^^^
<clever>
catern: ah, you may want to use packageOverrides to change the versions of the services
<catern>
I don't actually use NixOps or NixOS so I need others to tell me what they support :)
<catern>
clever: does that also work for NixOS/Ops-level configuration changes?
<clever>
catern: in general, i would use an override to upgrade some services, rather then trying to mix things
<catern>
clever: interesting
<catern>
clever: so would you just keep overriding things selectively forever?
<catern>
and eventually roll forward the base version?
<catern>
essentially, you'd have the base version be old rather than have the base version be new?
<clever>
catern: yeah, at some point, you would update the nixpkgs version, and delete some of the overrides
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<catern>
hmmm.... that makes a lot of sense as a way to incrementally roll out software as well...
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<catern>
(to have an old base version and selective upgrades on top of it, and then once everything is upgraded, roll the base version forward)
<clever>
catern: nixops also lets you trivially deploy a second copy of the entire cluster
<clever>
catern: so you can pre-test a new nixpkgs on a staging cluster
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<catern>
clever: but what if I want to have different versions within a single cluster?
<dhess>
this NixOps Hetzner backend test is crazy
<catern>
is that discouraged, I guess?
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<catern>
duplicating the cluster is preferred?
<clever>
catern: you can apply the overrides on a per-host basis
<catern>
intriguing
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<dhess>
catern: another way to do this would be to split your network up into A/B (etc) and then you can use the exact same expressions with just a different <nixpkgs> for each
<dhess>
I don't go quite so far as to have formal subsets of hosts, but I do occasionally only upgrade subsets of my network
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<gchristensen>
catern: I have a nixops patch I always use because I neeed this
<dhess>
gchristensen: That may be. What I meant specifically is that I've personally witnessed quite a few patches that are ready to go but just sit waiting for a merge, presumably because the maintainers are stretched thin.
<dhess>
and maybe the right thing to do would be to be a little more willing to pull things in the interest of forward progress and encouraging participation.
<gchristensen>
yeah
<adisbladis[m]>
I think gchristensen is on to something big. Mixing terraform and nixops sounds like a dream :)
<dhess>
adisbladis[m]: yes! IOHK does this I think
<dhess>
adisbladis[m]: I thought about it as well. I think I'm going to go with a Cloudformation wrapper instead of terraform
<gchristensen>
I think it being so complicated makes it hard to be flexible, because it has to work for its big users, it is too complicated to thoroughly test making each change really scary
<dhess>
there's a nice Haskell project for generating CF pipelines or whatever they're called
<gchristensen>
making it stressful to merge PRs
<samueldr>
leaving provisionning out of nixops may help a bunch
* samueldr
still hasn't looked into nixops :S
<dhess>
samueldr: ergh, that's like at least half of its value to me
<dhess>
probably more than half
<samueldr>
I mean, the implementation of the provisionning, but the declaration as nix is good
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<samueldr>
(I may not know enough nixops to make sense here)
<dhess>
Without the provisioning, I think NixOps is mostly just a wrapper around ssh and some nixos-* commands.
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<clever>
dhess: yeah, and you can use that directly, by setting it to the "none" backend
<gchristensen>
dhess: I'd suggest you'd get better value out of something other than nixops (say: terraform) + a thin connector to nixops
<dhess>
samueldr: I think you're on to something though. For example, a lot of the recent nixops commits have been dealing with AWS route53 stuff. It does feel like everything more than the basic "provision a VPS" stuff could be better left to things like terraform
<gchristensen>
terraform's mindshare is just too big
<dhess>
gchristensen: you kinda beat me to it there
<gchristensen>
=)
<dhess>
clever: sure, I use the none backend with about 20 hosts myself :)
<dhess>
but I am trying to move most of that to EC2 instances, partly because the provisioning is just so useful.
<adisbladis[m]>
gchristensen: And terraform supports a LOT more aws features
<clever>
dhess: yeah
<gchristensen>
adisbladis[m]: and gcp, and azure, and hetzner, and packet, and alicloud, and github, and digitalocean, and heroku, and pagerduty, and vmware, and cloudflare, and...
<dhess>
gchristensen: adisbladis[m]: mostly agree, however there is something to be said for something that speaks Nix natively so that you can do everything in one language and is conceptually unified
<dhess>
Gabriel Gonzalez had a very interesting comment to that effect recently re: Haskell app deployment in /r/haskell
<gchristensen>
dhess: I agree
<dhess>
there is a lot of friction in doing the OS and app provisioning in one language (Nix) and then needing to switch to a totally different mindset for Terraform or other tools
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<dhess>
it's a tradeoff of expressivity vs. a more limited set of features that "just works"
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<gchristensen>
I think it'd be worth more to reduce that friction and use a powerful tool than move the friction to a not great tool
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<dhess>
gchristensen: I think sticking with both is good. Many people's needs can be addressed by NixOps.
<gchristensen>
yeah, and that is fair
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<gchristensen>
nixops probably won't ever(short-term values of ever) lose some of its provisioning support
<cdomigan>
Any way to get quieter installs without all the curl download output?
<cdomigan>
--no-build-output looks like what I'm after
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<dhess>
gchristensen: if I were in charge I'd probably make sure NixOps could provision VPSes "everywhere," and very reliably; and for anything else just say, "You need to upgrade to/supplement with a more powerful tool."
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<dhess>
keep NixOps focused on the basics, the ones that most small teams will need.
<gchristensen>
*calculates the bill* that'll be a dedicated, perpetual team of 2, please
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<dhess>
it should probably just be part of NixOS, so that there's no question about how one should go about spinning up new NixOS instances
<clever>
dhess: have you seen my kexec trick?
<dhess>
gchristensen: hehehehehe
<adisbladis[m]>
You could even make a small layer to convert nix to hcl ;)
<dhess>
clever: I've seen a lot of people talking about it but I haven't actually needed it yet.
<gchristensen>
Terraform doesn't even do that, their providers are built by the hosting companies
<clever>
dhess: it can be used to almost trivially convert any VPS into nixos
<dhess>
gchristensen: that's why I put "everywhere" in quotes. It would be the kind of thing where you prioritize by how big/accommodating the provider is.
<dhess>
clever: you should roll it into NixOps!
<gchristensen>
no he shouldn't
<gchristensen>
because it isn't universal, it takes tweaks per host
<gchristensen>
its complicated
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<dhess>
hey man I'm just going off the "almost trivially convert any VPS" quote :)
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<gchristensen>
it is almost trivial
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<gchristensen>
but putting it in to nixops makes it much harder to tweak as necessary
<catern>
I have no real interest in either nixops or terraform :) IMO, deployment/orchestration should be done in a full-fledged programming language, to manage all the runtime state (on top of Nix, of course)
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<dhess>
catern: but that's what NixOps is, or aims to be.
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<catern>
dhess: the Nix language is not good enough :)
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<dhess>
catern: isn't the fact that NixOps can already deploy/orchestrate so many backends an existence (dis)proof of your statement?
<catern>
dhess: isn't the fact that you were just discussing getting rid of large parts of NixOps a disproof of *your* statement? :)
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<dhess>
No, I don't think it is.
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<dhess>
It can be done. There just aren't enough team members to pull it off.
<gchristensen>
I agree
<dhess>
I don't think it has anything to do with Nix the language.
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<Profpatsch>
hyper_ch: Now I am. :)
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<Profpatsch>
gchristensen: Nice! Hydra threw out their build streaming support, so maybe we could enable that again with stomp.
<gchristensen>
Profpatsch: its a bit complicated because it requires rabbitmq
<dhess>
Profpatsch: gchristensen: do you mean streaming of the logs so that you can watch them in a browser?
<Profpatsch>
dhess: yeah
<dhess>
oh god plz plz plz
<Profpatsch>
Just a thought, older hydra versions had that feature.
<Profpatsch>
But it didn’t survive some changes apparently.
<dhess>
yeah, I went looking for it just after I got mine running
<dhess>
couldn't figure out where it went as I saw URLs referencing it
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<gchristensen>
iirc it was sort of fake support for tailing
<Profpatsch>
exactly.
<Profpatsch>
Worked well enough while it lasted.
<gchristensen>
and I think it was disabled because of performance problems
<dhess>
fake or not I would take it :)
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<gchristensen>
but I don't know
<dhess>
gchristensen: yes it seems that was true. I think it was clever who found the commit
<dhess>
when I was asking about it like a month ago
<gchristensen>
ah
<gchristensen>
bed time.
<dhess>
The main problem with Hydra is that it's so good, you end up putting everything in it and then half your day, it seems, is spent refreshing build logs
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<gchristensen>
not often I hear people praising it for being so good. I'm glad you think so :D
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<dhess>
I absolutely love it. It has changed the way I develop software!
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<hyper_ch>
Profpatsch: how to use rss2email? it seems it's not configured as service? can I just add feeds like it says on the github wiki? and I need to configure some mail sending?
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<Profpatsch>
hyper_ch: Hah, I never got around to actually using that thin.
<Profpatsch>
g
<Profpatsch>
Is still on my todo-list
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<hyper_ch>
Profpatsch: because wiki says create a new default email to send entries to and then add feeds... so i guess it has to store cnfig somewhere
<hyper_ch>
and not sure if that can be done by default just like that
<Profpatsch>
hyper_ch: Sure, since it has to remember which entries already exist.
<hyper_ch>
"By default, rss2email uses sendmail (or an equivalent) to send outgoing email. If you don't have such a program installed, or simply prefer to use SMTP directly, edit the configuration file and fill in your outoing email server's details:"
<Profpatsch>
Depends on how you want to use it.
<hyper_ch>
since by default I can't write to /etc then I can't really edit the config file, right? :)
<hyper_ch>
I'll have to test it
<Profpatsch>
hyper_ch: Look at the manpage
<hyper_ch>
manpage of?
<Profpatsch>
It uses $XDG_CONFIG_HOME
<Profpatsch>
rss2email
<hyper_ch>
ah :)
<hyper_ch>
I see
<hyper_ch>
ha... that sounds like it makes it easier
<Profpatsch>
Oh shit
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<hyper_ch>
?
<Profpatsch>
I just read the AUTHOR part, apparently the first version was done by Aaron Swartz
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<Profpatsch>
RIP my dude
<hyper_ch>
:(
<dhess>
:(
<hyper_ch>
so, new stargate is out
<hyper_ch>
I'll test rss2email then
<hyper_ch>
Profpatsch: thx for packaging... how comes you packaged it if you don't use it?
<Profpatsch>
hyper_ch: Because I wanted to use it, but haven’t come around to actually setting it up yet.
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<hyper_ch>
:) well, thx
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<hyper_ch>
and i think one day I also have to have a look into home manager
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<Profpatsch>
I’ve been thinking about that a lot, and I’m pretty sure at least for generating static files, a combination of nix, GNU stow and dhall is going to work wonders.
<Profpatsch>
So you obviously use nix to build a store path that gives you a folder you can then deploy with stow(1r
<Profpatsch>
*stow(1)
<Profpatsch>
But of course you want to avoid putting user secrets into the nix store (or nix files for that matter).
<hyper_ch>
Profpatsch: you only want to avoid using that if you let other people touch your notebook and servers :)
<Profpatsch>
So what you do is you make the configs you generate into dhall functions (as in: data with typed holes in it) and give the function its arguments when you build the final thing (outside of nix).
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<hyper_ch>
sounds good
<Profpatsch>
Given dhall’s text interpolation features I’m not even sure you need nix in the equation?
<hyper_ch>
(/me has no idea.... /me is just a normal user)
<Profpatsch>
Ah yes, if you want to reference executables and stuff from nixpkgs you’d certainly need nix.
<hyper_ch>
so, quiterss allowed me to easily export the feeds to a file which makes it simple to get them again
<hyper_ch>
on the email account that I have yet to create that receives the notices, I can then probably easily use sieve to sort mails in to different foldersw
<hyper_ch>
so that my current categories as in quiterss are still maintained
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<hyper_ch>
so, gotta get to work now
<Profpatsch>
hyper_ch: I’d hope it to be able to set a mail header.
<Profpatsch>
So I’d hope to be able to give rss2mail a tag string or list and have that attached to the mails it sends, maybe as X-RSS-Tags
<Profpatsch>
Maybe I’ll have to patch the script.
<Profpatsch>
Also I’d want to be able to give & reload the config declaratively, so that it can be integrated into a systemd module.
<Profpatsch>
But haven’t taken a closer look yet.
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<dnovosel>
Anyone using dropbox here? When I try and activate it, I get essentially a version too old message. I use two-factor authentication, I'm not sure if that makes a difference.
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<NixOS_GitHub>
[nixpkgs] fpletz pushed 1 new commit to staging: https://git.io/vAZVV
<NixOS_GitHub>
nixpkgs/staging 79e7f7a Franz Pletz: radvd service: fix due to systemd upgrade...
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<vvvvo>
What set of nixpkgs am I using if I installed nix on macos? `nix-channel --list` suggests I'm not subscribed to any channels. Am I pinned to some particular version of the nixpkgs repo based on when I installed?
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<vvvvo>
Ah, I guess it was because I had to log into root in a particular way to see its list of channels
<clever>
vvvvo: apple is being naughty, "sudo nix-channel --list" uses the wrong $HOME
<clever>
but "sudo -i" sets the right HOME=/root/, then nix-channel --list works
<NixOS_GitHub>
[nixpkgs] peterhoeg pushed 1 new commit to master: https://git.io/vAZ6Q
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<pjan>
Is there a way to get the current version of the current haskell compiler in nixpkgs. Right now pkgs.haskellPackages is equivalent with pkgs.haskell.packages.ghc822. I was wondering whether the `ghc822` value can be extracted from somewhere (so that it is being updated when the default version is being updated as well)?
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<NixOS_GitHub>
[nixpkgs] kolloch opened pull request #34996: restic: add completions and man page to package (master...restic) https://git.io/vAZim
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<NixOS_GitHub>
[nixpkgs] Mic92 pushed 2 new commits to release-17.09: https://git.io/vAZil
<NixOS_GitHub>
nixpkgs/release-17.09 9f815c4 Daniel Fullmer: rtl8812au: 4.3.20 -> 5.2.20_25672.20171213...
<Phlogistique>
but that fails with error: infinite recursion encountered, at /nix/store/ry607y6dbna2449mzr6fj0gwmiwlvmfz-nixpkgs-18.03pre127876.9553ca5bb6c/nixpkgs/pkgs/top-level/all-packages.nix:6689:53
<Phlogistique>
did I do anything wrong?
<clever>
Phlogistique: do you want to cross-compile, or just use a remote builder of the right arch?
<srhb>
pjan: No, that's the one place it is defined. The closest you'll get is the ghc.version you found already.
<Phlogistique>
clever: sorry; I'm trying to native-compile a cross-compiler
<clever>
Phlogistique: also, i think you have crossSystem backwards, it should be set to linux
<Phlogistique>
...indeed
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<Phlogistique>
now I get Package ‘glibc-2.26-131’ in /nix/store/ry607y6dbna2449mzr6fj0gwmiwlvmfz-nixpkgs-18.03pre127876.9553ca5bb6c/nixpkgs/pkgs/development/libraries/glibc/default.nix:100 is not supported on ‘x86_64-darwin’, refusing to evaluate.
<Phlogistique>
does that mean that it's tryng to compile GLibc for MacOS?
<Phlogistique>
trying
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<clever>
Phlogistique: yeah
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<dhess>
makefu: hi, sorry, had to step afk for a bit. Still around?
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<makefu>
sure
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<dhess>
makefu: do you have this problem where wg0 (or whatever interface name you're using) fails to start properly on boot, and it needs a restart to get going ?
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<makefu>
dhess: mhhh at least not on the server where i use it. maybe it tries to initialize before the underlying network is online?
<makefu>
i had a similar issue on openwrt afair
<dhess>
makefu: are you connecting to an endpoint, or is it set up for roaming?
<makefu>
i have both server and client side running with nixos. not sure what exactly you mean by roaming.
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<NixOS_GitHub>
[nixpkgs] yuriaisaka opened pull request #34998: cpp-gsl: init at unstable-2018-02-15 (master...pr-cpp-gsl-init) https://git.io/vAZ1k
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<dhess>
makefu: what I mean is, is your peers.foo.endpoint set?
<makefu>
the x config is my laptop, the gum config is a vps
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<dhess>
makefu: right, hence no endpoint set on the server, that's what I was talking about. So your server wg0 interface just starts right up with no issues, eh?
<makefu>
exactly
<dhess>
cool thank you
<hyper_ch2>
Profpatsch: it hates me :)
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<hyper_ch2>
dhess: I have that problem as well.... what I did was create a cron that checks every 5 min if the wg interface is up
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<Profpatsch>
hyper_ch2: How so?
<hyper_ch2>
it only happens though on two machines - the ones that use bridge networking via systemd
<hyper_ch2>
Profpatsch: it looks for /usr/sbin/sendmail
<Profpatsch>
Ok, now that’s a packaging mistake.
<dhess>
hyper_ch2: Are you using NixOps to deploy the WireGuard private keys or pre-shared keys, by any chance?
<hyper_ch2>
cause: [Errno 2] No such file or directory: '/usr/sbin/sendmail': '/usr/sbin/sendmail'
<hyper_ch2>
Profpatsch: that's why I highlighted you :)
<hyper_ch2>
(just setup defaultMailServer now)
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<hyper_ch2>
dhess: no, never used nixops.... I just create the key and put them into the config
<Profpatsch>
Hm, sendmail normally is provided by your MSA
<dhess>
hyper_ch2: I'm actually trying to figure this out to make a NixOS test work, so a cron job or similar doesn't help in this case. Thanks though.
<makefu>
hyper_ch2: how about you simply add Restart=always;RestartSec = 10; to the systemd service?
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<hyper_ch2>
makefu: which systemd server?
<hyper_ch2>
service?
<Profpatsch>
hyper_ch2: The manual doesn’t list configuration options, but take a look at
<makefu>
hyper_ch2: then you should do the following instead of your script: systemd.services.wireguard-<interface>.serviceConfig = { Restart = "always"; RestartSec = "10" };
<makefu>
hyper_ch2: right now you have a script which starts the wireguard services if they crash via your script. however you could use systemd features to keep the service running instead. this is what i mean
<NixOS_GitHub>
[nixpkgs] NinjaTrappeur opened pull request #35001: fixedsys-excelsior: init at 3.00. (master...excelsior) https://git.io/vAZNF
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<Orbstheorem[m]>
Hello, I want to run `pip install gpg` inside `pipenv shell`, but it requires `gpg-error-config`, I can find it using nix-locate, but it's in `libgpgerror.dev`, so, when I install libgpgerror it does not appear in my library path
<clever>
srk: the dummy json files in the root also let you just nix-build the default.nix's for testing, to preview the json hydra will be using
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<NixOS_GitHub>
[nixpkgs] Profpatsch closed pull request #35004: rss2email: add docs and code for running tests (master...rss2mail-docs) https://git.io/vAZh6
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* clever
heads back off to bed
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<srk>
clever: ah, cool. I'm already using not-os part of that. btw I have a declarative netboot server configuration. a module that generates tftp root, httpd dir with signatures and also a ipxe script
<srk>
*an
<srk>
needs few finishing touches and I'll push that to git
<srk>
forgot where I've got pxelinux.0 from..
<clever>
main issue with automating even the signing, is that your private keys wind up in the binary cache, and hydra will share them with the world
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<clever>
[clever@amd-nixos:~]$ nix-build '<nixpkgs>' -A ipxe --arg config '{}'
<clever>
srk: it also needs the more standard fileSystems things as well, like the uuid and type
<clever>
srk: and all of that was written before the initrd had proper networking support, so the ip stuff is a bit of a hack
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<infinisil>
Reventlov: Damn, that's a lot of dependencies for different functionalities, it's not a simple thing to package nicely
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<NixOS_GitHub>
nixpkgs/gcc-7 b1916b4 Tuomas Tynkkynen: Merge remote-tracking branch 'upstream/staging' into gcc-7...
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<NixOS_GitHub>
[nixpkgs] dezgeg pushed 1 new commit to gcc-7: https://git.io/vAnT1
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<xnaveira[m]>
so where would be a place to put eval "$(ssh-agent -s)" in order to have the ssh keys agent available in different sessions open from the window manager?
<makefu>
xnaveira[m]: sessionCommands
<makefu>
ah no, for the shell you should put it ....
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<makefu>
i added gpg-connect-agent in programs.<shell>.interactiveShellInit
<genesis>
packaging stuff on git rev, some use date , others use shorted git rev as version, when i see first be easy to understand update ( if people respect year-month-day format ) , does it really matter for nix ?
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<sphalerite_>
xnaveira[m]: or if you want to configure it in a nixy way, you can put an expression like pkgs.writeTextFile {name = "i3status.conf"; destination = "etc"; text = ''... your config here ...'';} and point i3status to it through your i3 config
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<sphalerite_>
genesis: <personal opinion> yyyy-mm-dd-shortrev is best because it works with sort order *and* contains exact rev information </personal opinion>
<infinisil>
or just pkgs.writeText "i3status.conf" '' config here ''
<sphalerite_>
and because it instantly gives you an idea of how recent it is. In that respect it's better than "proper" version numbers.
<sphalerite_>
infinisil: nope files can't be installed straight into the profile
<infinisil>
ah, didn't know it needs to be in the profile
<genesis>
sphalerite : i like the idea, i'd like much all people doing same :D
<sphalerite_>
well it doesn't have to be but you can simply point it to ~/.nix-profile/etc/i3status.conf and restart it to update the config if it is
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<sphalerite_>
genesis: not to say that version numbering isn't useful, especially with schemes like semver that give them useful semantics
<xnaveira[m]>
i see sphalerite_ thank you
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<genesis>
short rev is 7 on many project (github etc) but 11 for others ... that's not so cool too.
<genesis>
( 7 character is default fetchgit )
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<clever>
genesis: i think the git tool itself, will analyze the entire git repo, and pick the shortest prefix that remains unique, plus one or 2 digits
<genesis>
git rev-parse --short is 11
<genesis>
fetchgit is 7 using substring
<clever>
genesis: that command returns 4c4f1c4 in one of my nixos config repo's
<genesis>
hum perharps a git conf, oki i'll have look
<clever>
genesis: and the exact same command returns 0fcc3ab23d73 in a checkout of linux
<clever>
and ca5482604 on another project
<etu>
Doesn't it depend on the shortest one that is unique but isn't too short?
<clever>
ca548 is the smallest i can make it while still being unique
<genesis>
so fetchgit substring to 7 would be not so smart ?
<clever>
for linux, its 0fcc3ab
<clever>
genesis: yeah, i need 7 digits to maintain a unique reference in the linux repo
<clever>
genesis: and then you have repos like chromium that are literally a 20gig clone, i dont even want to know how many digits that needs :P
<sphalerite_>
one day we will have easy copying from one screen to another…
<clever>
sphalerite_: synergy does that for me, and i was surprised at how seamless it was being yesterday
<clever>
sphalerite_: synergy synced the clipboard between the laptop&desktop
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<clever>
sphalerite_: virtualbox synced the clipboard between the win10 vm and the laptop
<clever>
sphalerite_: teamviewer synced the clipboard between the win10 vm, and the guy i was helping over teamviewer
<sphalerite_>
clever: yeah, I've used synergy before too
<clever>
sphalerite_: end result, the nixos machine, that is not involved in teamviewer at all, is mirroring a clipboard on the other side of the continent :P
<etu>
sphalerite_: I use KdeConnect to copypaste between phone and computer :)
<sphalerite_>
isn't as neat with my phone and stuff though
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<sphalerite_>
oh yeah I need to try kde connect at some point
<clever>
sphalerite_: pushbullet is an app i use to share links between mobile devices and the browser, and it also has a clipboard sync feature
<sphalerite_>
nonfree
<clever>
?, i just installed the chromium extension and android app
<clever>
neither side delt with nix
<hyper_ch2>
Profpatsch: thx
* goibhniu1
<3 kdeconnect
goibhniu1 is now known as goibhniu
<etu>
clever: kdeconnect let me share an url on my phone via kdeconnect, choose computer and have it opened in firefox on my computer :)
<clever>
etu: pushbullet does similar
<mai_at_saturn>
Hi! I've been searching for a way to be able to reinstall my system with all its configuration (dotfiles, installed packages, /etc configurations and so on) automatically on multiple machines and have it synced. Would nixOS be a solution to this?
<goibhniu>
kdeconnect also lets you control your pointer and keyboard remotely, which I use a fair bit when watching movies etc.
<clever>
genesis: ah, now that starts to get a bit more useful
<clever>
goibhniu: oops, wrong g name
<sphalerite_>
clever: yeah but it's nonfree
<goibhniu>
you can also control vlc (and other players), and share notifications
<goibhniu>
and transfer files
<clever>
notification sharing is another thing i use in pushbullet
<goibhniu>
ah
<clever>
i dont think it has full file sharing, but you can share images
<clever>
its sort of like facebook messenger, but each device is a seperate user
<clever>
and you can also friend other pushbullet users and share to them, like FB
<infinisil>
mai_at_saturn: nixos will certainly help with software and system-wide configuration, it doesn't handle $HOME files by default though, you can use home-manager for this though, which is pretty much nixos for your $HOME https://github.com/rycee/home-manager
<mai_at_saturn>
infinisil, $HOME files are the smallest problem in the puzzle I think, home-manager looks like a good solution though
<infinisil>
mai_at_saturn: yeah nixos is definitely the right thing for this though
<mai_at_saturn>
I guess my doubt is, if I change something like /etc/sudoers, does nix help me have it any time I want to reinstall my system (provided I backup nix config stuff)?
<clever>
mai_at_saturn: /etc/sudoers is read-only, nixos doesnt allow you to change it directly
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<clever>
mai_at_saturn: you must edit the configuration.nix values that control its generation, and nixos will keep a history of every version you have built, and you can even pick an older version from the bootloader to undo it
<mai_at_saturn>
And this is how everything I can configure system wide works in nixOS, I assume, so I can't edit something without nixOS "managing" it for me?
<sphalerite_>
mai_at_saturn: you can edit things without nixos managing them for you, but if you edit something nixos is managing your changes will be lost on the next update
<sphalerite_>
mai_at_saturn: but for instance I have my /etc/wpa_supplicant.conf not managed by nixos on my laptop, and just manage it myself
<clever>
same
<infinisil>
clever: sphalerite_: there's a module for it now btw!
<sphalerite_>
infinisil: yeah but I don't want my uni login password exposed in the nix store :)
<sphalerite_>
(for eduroam)
<clever>
also, nixos-rebuild will fail if the network is down
<clever>
and you have to edit wpa_supplicant.conf to get the network up!
<clever>
now what? :P
<mai_at_saturn>
so whenever I want something to be replicated whenever I reinstall I can just make sure I'm managing it through nix... that would make sense
<clever>
sphalerite_: and all the passwords came along for the ride, so it just worked, everywhere, lol
<sphalerite_>
also, not really related to nixos but #nixos is where I find all the wizards who know about this stuff... A functional RS232 cable should have more than 2 wires, right?
<clever>
i believe wpa_gui can also dynamically add a network&pass to the daemon
<clever>
but it needs special config to persist
<infinisil>
wpa_gui is niice
<clever>
sphalerite_: at a bare minimum, 3, rx, tx, gnd
<clever>
sphalerite_: preferably, another 2 as well, clear-to-send, in either direction
<clever>
which enables hardware flow control
<sphalerite_>
right. I wonder what this 2-wire cable with female DB9 connectors on each end is for then
<clever>
i think there are another 2, for detecting the remote machine
<mog>
rs232 has more as defined by standard
<clever>
sphalerite_: photo?
<mog>
but some devices might only have 2 like a gps, only has ground and transmit lines
<NixOS_GitHub>
[nixpkgs] peterhoeg pushed 1 new commit to master: https://git.io/vAn3v
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<NixOS_GitHub>
nixpkgs/master 8d7b069 Peter Hoeg: neomutt: 20171208 -> 20171215...
<clever>
sphalerite_: thats data terminal ready and gnd, weird
<clever>
sphalerite_: i believe thats an output from the PC, and its wired to the output on both PC's?
<clever>
definitely not a serial console thing
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<sphalerite_>
Hm. I wonder if we have any actual rs232 cables lying around. That would be useful
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<mpickering>
Anyone feel like merging #32925 ?
<mpickering>
Simple documentation fix
<sphalerite_>
so… I have a bunch of male-female DB9 cables. Those aren't very helpful for connecting two computers' serial ports together though. Would it make sense to disassemble two and wire them together in some way?
<sphalerite_>
particularly if I don't have soldering equipment?
<clever>
sphalerite_: you want to get a null-modem adapter
<maurer>
sphalerite_: If you're in uni, go talk to the EEs, they'll have some you can borrow. If you're at a tech firm, go talk to your sysads, they have some for debugging early boot and switches
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<mog>
im hoping we cant get in so i can work on and finish the other plugins
<sphalerite_>
maurer: ooh, not a bad idea. (EEs)
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<NixOS_GitHub>
[nixpkgs] shlevy pushed 3 new commits to master: https://git.io/vAnsT
<NixOS_GitHub>
nixpkgs/master 8d55538 Matthew Pickering: Revert "idris: Move library setup to the setup hook."...
<NixOS_GitHub>
nixpkgs/master 947e7d8 Matthew Pickering: Refactor Idris packaging infrastructure...
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<NixOS_GitHub>
nixpkgs/master 0171543 Shea Levy: Merge branch 'idris-packaging' of git://github.com/mpickering/nixpkgs
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<infinisil>
Always nice to have a package not be pulled from the cache because it doesn't build in your channel :/
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<sphalerite_>
genesis: "i would like to close this quickly" is not a good reason to neglect the commit convention
<genesis>
i guess
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<__monty__>
genesis: While convention may be inconvenient from time to time you have to consider the number of people who want to submit changes and the number of people who need to go over them. Even if it's only a couple minutes extra for them if you deviate, what's to stop everyone from doing so?
<xnaveira[m]>
so sphalerite_ when you said "xnaveira[m]: or if you want to configure it in a nixy way, you can put an expression like pkgs.writeTextFile {name = "i3status.conf"; destination = "etc"; text = ''... your config here ...'';} and point i3status to it through your i3 config" in what context was that? because pkgs.writeTextfile doesnt work in configuration.nix
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<sphalerite_>
xnaveira[m]: oh right, this would be for systemwide config. I assumed it would be for per-user config. In nixos configuration you could do environment.etc."xdg/i3status/config".text = ''your i3status config''; to put its config in /etc
<xnaveira[m]>
i see, what about if i want to create a file in my home?
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<xnaveira[m]>
and how would I go if I wanted to create a per user config? I'm a bit confused regarding profiles, shells and envs
<sphalerite_>
there's no generic provision for that in nixos. You could use https://github.com/rycee/home-manager or you could do what I mentioned before — install your config into your nix profile
<xnaveira[m]>
well VERY confused tbh :)
<genesis>
__monty__ : i'm noob in nix and i'm being confuse with my git branch since i need to package many things in one branch, i did some extra work to separate and prepare commit, i just think, sometime newbie can't do perfect PR and perharps it's not so bad to pass once ...
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<sphalerite_>
A profile is just a set of packages managed by nix. Usually this takes the form of user profiles (for most nix installations) and the system profile (for nixos)
<sphalerite_>
genesis: there's a reason we have contributing guidelines, if a newbie can't be arsed reading them that's not our fault
<xnaveira[m]>
ok, and how do I change my user profile?
<__monty__>
genesis: That's a valid opinion. I'm just saying there's very few people considering how many packages there are so the bulk of the burden's on the submitter of PRs.
<sphalerite_>
s/arsed/bothered/ :)
<sphalerite_>
xnaveira[m]: using nix-env
<genesis>
sphalerite : i agree with that, it's a matter of best effort, anyway, i shouldn't discuss that
<xnaveira[m]>
ok, but that i guess generates a nix file somewhere?
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<sphalerite_>
genesis: you don't need to make a new branch and PR, just put 3 commits, one per package, in the one PR
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<genesis>
oki , i'll try that next time
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<NixOS_GitHub>
[nixpkgs] bignaux opened pull request #35008: caprice32 : init at 20170210-53de695 (master...caprice32) https://git.io/vAnWD
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<NixOS_GitHub>
[nix] matthewbauer opened pull request #1873: Set backup MANPATH in case man path isn’t set correctly. (master...fix-manpath) https://git.io/vAnlv
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<sphalerite_>
xnaveira[m]: your options are 1. use home-manager to put it in ~/.terraform; 2. make a wrapper for terraform to have it look for it in ~/.nix-profile/etc/terraform or similar, and put it there using nix-env; 3. (only really if there's no option for 2) make a patch for terraform to look there
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<arianvp2>
Anybody here know anything about vulkan mesa support in nixos?
<arianvp2>
Mesa should be built with the radeon vulkan support
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<arianvp2>
but if I do $ nix-shell -p vulkan-loader and then $ vulkaninfo
<arianvp2>
it tries to load the vulkan_intel icd instead and fails
<arianvp2>
whilst I don't even have an intel machine
<NixOS_GitHub>
nix/master 8f18672 Matthew Bauer: Set backup MANPATH in case man path isn’t set correctly....
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<xnaveira[m]>
sphalerite_: by wrapper you mean a script that i put in my ~/bin that does "terraform -f ~/.nix-profile/etc/terraform" ?
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<clever>
xnaveira[m]: you could create a nix package that generates such a wrapper, then just nix-env -i the package
<sphalerite_>
xnaveira[m]: a script that you install into your user profile like writeShellScriptBin "terraform" ''${terraform}/bin/terraform -f ~/.nix-profile/etc/terraform''
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<gchristensen>
Profpatsch: did I answer your question? I don't remember
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<NixOS_GitHub>
nixpkgs/staging b24ce2a Shea Levy: Handle sourceRoots with leading dashes
<NixOS_GitHub>
[nixpkgs] shlevy pushed 1 new commit to staging: https://git.io/vAn01
<Profpatsch>
gchristensen: You are building PRs of maintainers directly, right?
<Profpatsch>
I didn’t have to call ofborg before and it directly built my PR.
<Profpatsch>
Might be bad for e.g. Chromium patches.
<digitalmentat>
grahamc, I saw something on twitter you posted about Terraform and NixOS; do you have anything that is working that I could look at / hopefully use?
<gchristensen>
Profpatsch: I'm hoping the auto-building is a nice carrot to improve people's adherence to the commit message standard :)
<xnaveira[m]>
thx guys, i hae some reading to do...
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<infinisil>
Profpatsch: nice list
<gchristensen>
digitalmentat: ping me again in like 3 days?
<gchristensen>
gotta go
<infinisil>
I'm currently running my replacement script on all 10568 http urls in nixpkgs..
<infinisil>
Maybe I should refine it a bit more though, because this takes quiet a while
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<Profpatsch>
One noble goal for nixpkgs would probably to assemble a list of all Archlinux core-packages and keep them totally green in repology. :)
<digitalmentat>
gchristensen, okay!
<Profpatsch>
And to automate every metric that can be automated.
<Profpatsch>
But right now I’m just trying to survive Rabbitmq & Docker on caffeine, without any noble goals in mind.
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<digitalmentat>
Profpatsch, what is specifically going wrong w/ Docker for you?
<infinisil>
Profpatsch: To package arch linux packages automatically?
<infinisil>
That would be impressive..
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<Profpatsch>
digitalmentat: The CLI is just horrible.
<digitalmentat>
it truly is
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<Profpatsch>
docker load … docker run <sometag>
<Profpatsch>
where sometag is not put out by docker load.
<Profpatsch>
So half of the time I executle the wrong image from my history
<Profpatsch>
And then of *course* it’s impossible to stop the f* container with the image name.
<digitalmentat>
Profpatsch, yeah I have similar gripes
<digitalmentat>
I also have a lot to gripe about with docker load
<Profpatsch>
And half the command line tools just output the f* internal datastructures the devs use in their go code.
<Profpatsch>
Instead of actual helpful information.
<digitalmentat>
we have a "download layers into the nix store and stream them as a composite image to docker load" process and docker load is SLOOOWW
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<NixOS_GitHub>
nixpkgs/master e26a229 Vladimír Čunát: ranger: don't include "v" in nix-perceived version...
<NixOS_GitHub>
[nixpkgs] vcunat pushed 1 new commit to master: https://git.io/vAnzW
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<digitalmentat>
I also think it's ridiculous that they tied the container image format so tightly to the way they describe layers and store them
<Profpatsch>
And there is no way to inpect images without f* running them and running a f* shell inside them.
<Profpatsch>
There’s so much wrong with this tooling, it makes git look like a f* miracle.
<thblt>
Hi! I have a dell XPS 9560 (like everybody else, it seems) and I can't seem to be able to use the discrete NVidia card on NixOS. When I try to modprobe nvidia, journalctl reports the following: https://paste.thb.lt/1518710722.html
<digitalmentat>
yeah, Docker has cost our company a tremendous amount in terms of wasted developer time
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<Profpatsch>
digitalmentat: Do you think migrating over to OCI images & runc is worth the effort?
<thblt>
I've tried lspci -n -d 10de:*, and it reports 01:00.0 0302: 10de:1c8d (rev ff), which, IIUC, means the card is in compute mode and not in graphics mode.
<thblt>
"
<thblt>
Some sources suggest using gpumodeswitch to put it into graphics mode, but I can't find this binary in NixOS.
<thblt>
Any ideas? thanks!
<digitalmentat>
Profpatsch, I mean, if I truly needed containers I would just use nixos-containers
<thblt>
(Also maybe I'm completely wrong about the compute vs graphics mode thing)
<clever>
thblt: another handy thing, `lspci -nn`
<digitalmentat>
our company had legacy reasons for choosing docker but in truth we don't need it at all
<gchristensen>
Hah. Docker is legacy...
<Profpatsch>
digitalmentat: Yeah, we want to have a way for people to deploy without hassle.
<clever>
thblt: the difference, is that -n only shows the numbers, but -nn mixes the numbers and the text from no -n
<Profpatsch>
That’s not really handling the runtime issues.
<digitalmentat>
containers are just a great way to get the dev team to not talk to ops
<thblt>
clever: it's indeed much more legible :)
<clever>
thblt: yep
<digitalmentat>
Profpatsch, what do you mean by runtime issues?
<Profpatsch>
Well, you need to get a nixos running, know how to configure it, debug modules …
<Profpatsch>
Instead of just running all the parts you don’t want to care about inside their containers & start developing.
<Profpatsch>
like e.g. the database, the message queue, the API, … just fire them up in your local docker instance and start writing frontend code or services.
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<digitalmentat>
could you bundle the backend services as a vbox or kvm VM to accomplish the same development environment needs?
<Profpatsch>
And when generating them with nix we get the pros of from-source builds as a plus.
<Profpatsch>
digitalmentat: Nah, that’s even more brain damage.
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<NixOS_GitHub>
[nixpkgs] shlevy pushed 1 new commit to master: https://git.io/vAngZ
<digitalmentat>
*shrug* for us we're running into the problem of container workflow proliferation being a way for people to hide sloppy development behind the walls of a container
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<Profpatsch>
That sounds like a social problem.
<digitalmentat>
yeah it is
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<digitalmentat>
I also think people not being willing to learn Nix and NixOS is a social problem as well
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<Profpatsch>
Why should e.g. a designer know about nix(os)?
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<digitalmentat>
they should know enough to use it as a brew replacement IMHO since that is how we build and deploy utilities and not just our product
<Profpatsch>
It’s kind of tangential to their job.
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<Profpatsch>
Well, as brew replacement, certainly.
<Profpatsch>
But that’s not necessarily enough knowledge to debug failing nix builds.
<simpson>
digitalmentat: If a team wants to own and ship shitty code, and the code's shittiness isn't affecting you directly, then this is WAI and you're not meant to be part of the regulating force which improves their code.
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<digitalmentat>
simpson, you're right, if it is not affecting me directly but it does :)
<simpson>
digitalmentat: Ask your manager to speak to their manager, or whatever your company policy is, I suppose.
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<Profpatsch>
There’s always another manager.
<Profpatsch>
It’s managers all the way up!
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<digitalmentat>
simpson, I appreciate the thought, I think we're slowly solving the problem (as a very small company and group of people) since there is no one person that actually wants it this way and it really is due to legacy forces and other factors not worth discussing
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<digitalmentat>
Profpatsch, back to your original question, if you really do want containers I think going directly to OCI / runc is good idea
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<digitalmentat>
but you do have to manage a lot of other things docker will "do for you"
<Profpatsch>
Yeah, that’s the next step probably.
<Profpatsch>
First get it running with docker.
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<digitalmentat>
I wonder if you could generate a nixos container from a docker image specification; that way you don't have to incur the cost of using `docker load` in production
<Profpatsch>
Then write the nix builder for OCI images.
<digitalmentat>
yeah
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<digitalmentat>
I'd ask that if you do that work you make it OSS-able (if possible) because I'd be interested in it
<digitalmentat>
yeah, we use it to generate Nix build instructions that fetch a docker image not as a whole image but as a granular set of layers from a registry
<digitalmentat>
we're a Haskell shop, so...yeah
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<p_l>
sounds like rare thing :)
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<Profpatsch>
digitalmentat: lol, you work with Gabriel?
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<digitalmentat>
Profpatsch, yeah
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<NixOS_GitHub>
[nixpkgs] FRidh pushed 1 new commit to master: https://git.io/vAnau
<NixOS_GitHub>
nixpkgs/master 050810e Frederik Rietdijk: Revert "Add JayDeBeApi and JPype1 python packages"...
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<p_l>
has anyone tried testing NixOS configuration snippets from single-user nix install?
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<CrazedProgrammer>
does anyone know how to use OpenCL on a modern AMD GPU in NixOS?
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<arianvp2>
CrazedProgrammer: I'm trying to get that working at the moment
<arianvp2>
:P
<arianvp2>
So I think OpenCL should work with the mainline mesa driver for AMD
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<arianvp2>
I think installing ocl-icd should be enough...
<arianvp2>
though not sure
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<NixOS_GitHub>
[nixpkgs] shlevy opened pull request #35012: Make the commit message format a recommendation. (master...no-commit-message-policing) https://git.io/vAnrO
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<arianvp2>
CrazedProgrammer: turns out OpenCL support doesn't seem to be enabled in NixOS at the moment :(
<CrazedProgrammer>
oh that's unfortunate. thanks for the explanation and issue report! :)
<CrazedProgrammer>
arianvp2:
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<lexsomething>
hey, I would like to execute simple python script of my own via ./myscript.py (I don't want to write a package of it) . so I added to the beginning of file : #! /usr/bin/env nix-shell and next line #! nix-shell -i 'python3.withPackages(ps: [ps.numpy])' . however, when I execute ./myscript.py nix shell complains: default.nix’: No such file or directory
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<NixOS_GitHub>
[nixpkgs] shlevy pushed 1 new commit to master: https://git.io/vAnKT
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<NixOS_GitHub>
nixpkgs/master 2dbf5dd Shea Levy: pythonPackages.JPype1: Init at 0.6.2
<lexsomething>
how should I fix my shebang? I reproduced what stated in official nixpkgs manual, python section 9.11.1.1.3.3. nix-shell as shebang . but official example doesn't work for me
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<Lisanna>
wow, I just realized that all nix derivations are infinite datastructures
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<NixOS_GitHub>
[nixpkgs] shlevy pushed 1 new commit to master: https://git.io/vAn6v
<NixOS_GitHub>
nixpkgs/master 5812195 Shea Levy: pythonPackages.JayDeBeApi: Init at 1.1.1.
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<__monty__>
lexsomething: Have you tried nix-shell -i python -p pythonPackages.numpy?
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<lexsomething>
__monty___ trying, got error: unknown flag ‘-i’ Try ‘/nix/store/c7axbcb4f21n7m6kjdkrfzs2z2p28k14-nix-1.11.16/bin/nix-store --help’ for more information.
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<NixOS_GitHub>
[nixpkgs] shlevy pushed 1 new commit to master: https://git.io/vAn6M
<__monty__>
I'm not sure why nix-store complains about the -i flag.
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<lexsomething>
oh, thank you, looks like I fixed and got it working, I just remowed whitespeaced after shebang and changed lines to #!/usr/bin/env nix-shell #!nix-shell -p python3 -i python3
<__monty__>
Hmm, I have spaces and it doesn't seem an issue.
<troydm>
__monty__: ahh, thx, now let's say I've extracted source to xterm-330 folder, using unpackPhase, what commands there are to build/run tit
<troydm>
*it
<__monty__>
That's a good question which I'll leave to someone more experienced to answer : )
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<etu>
troydm: If you have a clone of nixpkgs, you can stand in the root of that project and run: nix-build -A xterm # to build it from the current tree that you stand in
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<etu>
troydm: Then I think you want to look in pkgs/applications/misc/xterm/default.nix to see what happens and make changes and run the build command again
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<etu>
troydm: The result will be available in a symlink named result
<etu>
sphalerite_: stupidterm is nicer out of the box though :)
<Baughn>
Thanks!
<LnL>
not sure if the "official" is still updated
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<troydm>
sphalerite_: well if it doesn't then I'm pretty much suprized, because it's just Xresources configuration that specifies which cursor folder to use
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<NixOS_GitHub>
[nixpkgs] abbradar opened pull request #35016: Fix build of acl and attr from source with unstable Nix (staging...acl-attr) https://git.io/vAnyk
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<sphalerite_>
troydm: yes, but urxvt doesn't seem to use libxcursor which is what actually reads that configuration
<troydm>
sphalerite_: that is something that I haven't noticed on other setups
<troydm>
sphalerite_: really weird
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<troydm>
sphalerite_: I wonder if there is a way to disable urxvt to change cursor
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<troydm>
sphalerite_: like don't even do anything mouse pointer related
<sphalerite_>
I doubt it
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<boomshroom>
Hello!
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<boomshroom>
How can I run an executable within nix-shell with a given package in the library path?
<boomshroom>
On a related note, does anyone have any experience with Java 9's AOT compiler?
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<xnaveira[m]>
why after running a nix-channel --update if I do nix-env -i terraform i get terraform 0.11.3 but if i have terraform in my systempackages in configuration.nix i just get 0.11.1?
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<boomshroom>
xnaveira[m]: Because running `nix-channel --update` updated your user channel while configuration.nix uses the system channel.
<xnaveira[m]>
how do i update the system channel then?
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<boomshroom>
I personnally don't even have a user channel and just update my system one. If you're on a shared machine where you don't have access to the system channel, then it's perfectly fine to use a user one.
<xnaveira[m]>
i did that and then sudo nixos-rebuild switch --upgrade but still the old version
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<xnaveira[m]>
this is one user machine and the plan is to use only system
<boomshroom>
I should mention that the --upgrade flag implicitly running nix-channel --update.
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<xnaveira[m]>
but i have to learn owto update it :)
<boomshroom>
What's the output of `nix-channel --list` and `sudo nix-channel --list`?
<sphalerite_>
Why am I not getting manpages available in nix-shell -p xorg.libXcursor, even though they're there in hte package?
<sphalerite_>
the only problem with nix search is that it only supports one term at a time
<xnaveira[m]>
now it woks
<xnaveira[m]>
thx
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<boomshroom>
I'll have to check it out.
<sphalerite_>
eventually I'll probably add a patch to nix to add multiple search terms to nix search
<troydm>
sphalerite_: this is strange as everything I've googled suggested, that rxvt-unicode respects Xcursor.theme setting
<boomshroom>
Well nox --help didn't explain much
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<sphalerite_>
troydm: links?]
<boomshroom>
Also, should I be using nix-shell as often as I do? I'm pretty sure I run more within nix-shell then by installing.
<sphalerite_>
boomshroom: just `nox foo` to search for foo
<sphalerite_>
yeah I use nix-shell a lot too. It's great, isn't it? :D
<sphalerite_>
although if you find yourself using it with the same packages over and over again it might make sense to write a shell.nix or install the packages into your profile if appropriate
<gchristensen>
boomshroom: I used the `pass` password manager for about a month via nix-sheell before I added it to systeemPackages
<troydm>
sphalerite_: other ppl's Xresources configs :)
<troydm>
sphalerite_: well just checked and termite respects settings
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<boomshroom>
What's more, I have very little in my configuration.nix and the rest of my packages are spread between nix-env and a mystuff package defined in config.nix.
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<sphalerite_>
troydm: and termite uses gtk which uses libXcursor. Coincidence? I think not! :p
<arianvp2>
gchristensen: you do your share of rust programming right?
<arianvp2>
what's an easy way to get rust package built with nix?
<arianvp2>
(I want nix to handle the external deps like sdl2 etc)
<troydm>
sphalerite_: now how do I fix rxvt-unicode :D
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<boomshroom>
I'm off to continue my pointless project of building a Java bytecode interpreter that runs on the JVM.
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<nhill>
btw, the install iso f-ed up my system
<gchristensen>
arianvp2: I use carnix
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<NixOS_GitHub>
[nixpkgs] abbradar closed pull request #35016: Fix build of acl and attr from source with unstable Nix (master...acl-attr) https://git.io/vAnyk
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<boomshroom>
`nix-shell -p nox --run "nox nox"`
<fragamus>
howdy I am a nixos newb and I want to run on ec2. HOW IN THE BLUE BLAZES can I launch my ec2 instance with a higher amount of EBS storage? I need to install lots of haskell stuff on there
<gchristensen>
fragamus: it should work to just ask for a larger ebs volume
<fragamus>
how do I ask for that
<gchristensen>
probably some argumentss to ec2-run-instances, it is purely an AWS problem I think
<fragamus>
I used this to get a second volume: --block-device-mapping '/dev/sdd=:40:true’
<arianvp2>
I guess something with patchelf?
<nhill>
gchristensen: "waiting for device /dev/root to appear..."
<sphalerite_>
nhill: it shouldn't do that by itself. It was probably you :)
<gchristensen>
fragamus: somehow you can tell it to make the root device bigger
<fragamus>
but I dont know the right nixos stuff to have it use that volume
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<gchristensen>
nhill: how did you manage to make a block device named root?
<fragamus>
yeah root device bigger sounds like what I am after
<sphalerite_>
gchristensen: it's the default name, it uses that for a root device passed on the kernel commandline
<nhill>
gchristensen: I've done nothing... this is the message from the installer
<nhill>
sphalerite_: Well, after it failed I could no longer boot
<nhill>
sphalerite_: had to use a recovery usb to resetup secure boot
<sphalerite_>
nhill: are you trying to boot the installer or an installed system?
<nhill>
sphalerite_: installer
<sphalerite_>
nhill: nixos doesn't support secure boot afaik
<gchristensen>
fragamus: insteaed of sdd use sda maybe
<nhill>
just verified the sha256
<nhill>
installed it with unetbootin
<fragamus>
If I make the root device bigger, I have no real confidence that nixos will use that extra space
<nhill>
sphalerite_: That's fine, but the installer should not brick my damn system
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<fragamus>
like the partition table comes from the ami right?
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<NixOS_GitHub>
[nixpkgs] qknight opened pull request #35017: fix error handling and return code (master...nix-prefetch-git_error_handling_fix) https://git.io/vAnQj
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<gchristensen>
fragamus: I have confidence it will :)
<sphalerite_>
nhill: unetbootin is terrible. Write the installer to a USB stick using cp from a linux system, or dd mode in rufus
<gchristensen>
the / filesystemt is marked for auto-resizing on boot for the ec2 image
<fragamus>
yeah well I was pretty sure I could fly when I was a kid
<sphalerite_>
nhill: the installer will not brick your system if you don't tell it to
<nhill>
sphalerite_: I've never had trouble with it before
<fragamus>
I messed up my chin jumping off a concrete slab
<gchristensen>
see: nixos/modules/virtualisation/amazon-image, around line 28
<sphalerite_>
nhill: nixos's installation image does not work with unetbootin, because unetbootin messes with how it's loaded
<gchristensen>
fragamus: I mean if you don't have any fconfidence the trial is free.
<gchristensen>
~freee
<sphalerite_>
nhill: and again, your system should not be bricked unless *you* bricked it by running commands that brick it from the installer system or something
<fragamus>
yeah but my chin
<nhill>
sphalerite_: then why the hell is it recommended in the manual?
<nhill>
sphalerite_: I agree that it shouldn't, but it was
<sphalerite_>
nhill: if you just unplug the USB stick and reset the ocmputer does it fail to boot??
<gchristensen>
nhill: please curb yourlanguage and behavior. sphalerite_ has no obligation to help you.
<sphalerite_>
nhill: yeah it really hsouldn't be recommended i nthe manual. We need to fix that. In fact I'm going to fix it right now because we've had issues with this before
<gchristensen>
fragamus: you wereen't looking at the .nix source for your jump beforee you jumped. a key difference!
<fragamus>
oh yeah
<nhill>
sphalerite_: correct
<nhill>
I will use dd
<gchristensen>
then no bricking involved
<gchristensen>
no reason to be so upset
<fragamus>
that does look nice: autoResize = true;
<nhill>
gchristensen: bricking was definitely involved
<nhill>
why can't you guys seem to hear what I'm saying?
<sphalerite_>
nhill: Your system did not boot. It is not bricked.
<sphalerite_>
err
<nhill>
semantics sure
<sphalerite_>
your system still boots. It is not bricked.
<nhill>
but it was in an unbootable state
<nhill>
did not boot
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<NixOS_GitHub>
nixpkgs/master acd80e4 Austin Seipp: h2o: init at 2.2.4...
<NixOS_GitHub>
[nixpkgs] thoughtpolice pushed 2 new commits to master: https://git.io/vAn7X
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<NixOS_GitHub>
nixpkgs/master 33cfad9 Austin Seipp: hyperfine: init at 0.4.0...
<sphalerite_>
not really. You could have booted it by pressing C in grub and then typing exit
<gchristensen>
purely transitory and easy to resolve.
<sphalerite_>
assuming it's grub. Something like that.
<sphalerite_>
Anyway. Make sure not to *actually* brick your system with dd :)
<nhill>
it is, but grub did not load
<nhill>
I had to use a recover usb to reinstall the bootloader
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<gchristensen>
uhh what
<nhill>
yes
<nhill>
did y'all not hear me before?
<nhill>
I plugged in unetbootin stick... had error "mounting tmpfs on /... waiting for /dev/root......"
<sphalerite_>
no, I haven't heard you at all :) reading your messages is aggravating enough, I'm glad I don't have to hear them
<gchristensen>
nhill: and then what happened?
<nhill>
removed usb stick and rebooted... bios no long reconized any bootloaders
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<sphalerite_>
that's not something the installer will do.
<sphalerite_>
If you can show me a reproducible way of obtaining these results I'll accept it, but I simply do not believe you
<nhill>
Yeah, I've picked up on that pretty clearly
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<sphalerite_>
specifically the bit where the previously existing bootloaders don't work anymore.
<sphalerite_>
The waiting for /dev/root bit, yes, I've seen that before.
<sphalerite_>
If you produce some instructions that allow me to reproduce the bit where the existing bootloader stops working, then I'll believe you on that bit too
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<nhill>
Yes, I'll spend several hours helping debug a distro that I can't even install
<nhill>
Risking my personal data in the process
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<gchristensen>
soundss like maybe NixOS isn't a good fit then
<sphalerite_>
nhill: you're also welcome not to.
<gchristensen>
we're not able to provide a seemless experience with no problems
<sphalerite_>
nhill: also if installing *any* OS is risking your personal data, you're risking your personal data anyway by not having a good backup strategy.
<ottidmes-laptop>
I went experimenting again with my GPU to see if I can get it to run with a newer driver then the proprietary available only at kernel 4.4 (and below), but I am perplexed, the GPU seemed to have crashed once again, but when I logged in again after 10 minutes (via lightdm), it seems to work fine
<nhill>
It would just be nice if you addressed my questions instead of telling me that what I experienced didn't happen
<nhill>
Like use dd instead of unetbootin even though it's in the manual
<nhill>
or how about the actual error I got from the installer
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<sphalerite_>
nhill: if you want help getting nixos to work or are convinced that the boot breakage is nixos's fault and can confirm it then I'm glad to help you
<nhill>
Yeah, I'm trying to freaking install it
<sphalerite_>
nhill: sorry, what are the questions there?
<nhill>
installer completely fails
<nhill>
Timeout waiting for /dev/root
<sphalerite_>
nhill: your first messages as far as I can see were "Okay.... "Timed out waiting for device /dev/root"" and "trying to install from usb stick". I do not see a question there.
<sphalerite_>
You still haven't asked a question.
<nhill>
?
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<ottidmes-laptop>
nhill: Does the USB stick normally work, e.g. does it work with any other liveCD of another distro?
<sphalerite_>
I don't know what you want. Do you want to know why this is happening? Do you just want to know how to fix it?
<sphalerite_>
I can't help you very well if I don't know what kind of help you want.
<sphalerite_>
Complaints aren't questions.
<ottidmes-laptop>
sphalerite_: You have made your point
<nhill>
No problems with the stick. Anything would be helpful
<nhill>
Why is it failing?
<nhill>
What are the fixes?
<sphalerite_>
nhill: the fix is writing the image directly to the USB stick, i.e. `cp nixos-*.iso /dev/sdX` where sdX is the appropriate node for your USB stick. Or dd if you prefer. Up to you.
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<sphalerite_>
The reason it's happening is that unetbootin copies the files to the USB stick
<ottidmes-laptop>
nhill: I always use as root: dd if=/path/to/nixos.iso of=/dev/sd<device_letter_of_USB_stick> bs=4M status=progress && sync
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<sphalerite_>
whoops, didn't finish writing that message. Unetbootin copies the files to a partition on the USB stick which doesn't have the name that the installer image is looking for
<sphalerite_>
ottidmes-laptop: add oflag=direct instead of && sync and you'll get more accurate progress :)
<ottidmes-laptop>
sphalerite_: Thanks, did not know that one :)
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<ottidmes-laptop>
sphalerite_: But I am also obviously directly going to forget it, so I guess it is high time to make it into its own shell function
<nhill>
ottidmes-laptop: is the blocksize critical?
<sphalerite_>
nhill: glad to hear it! Any questions, don't hesitate to ask.
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<nhill>
can I use swapfiles from the installer?
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<ottidmes-laptop>
nhill: You can modify /etc/nixos/configuration.nix of the installer itself and configure the swap devices there and then `nixos-rebuild switch` the installer itself
<sphalerite_>
yes, create a swapfile (head -c 2G /dev/zero > /mnt/swapfile ; mkswap /mnt/swapfile) and then enable it using swapon (swapon /mnt/swapfile)
<sphalerite_>
a swap partition is preferable over a swap file when possible though.
<ottidmes-laptop>
nhill: Or swapon... yeah, that is easier
<nhill>
ok
<nhill>
I prefer swapfiles, why a partition?
<sphalerite_>
a file goes through the filesystem and may be fragmented as a result, which can be bad for performance
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<sphalerite_>
depending on the filesystem you may also have some trouble when swapping happens, I'm not sure of the exact details but this is very much not recommended with zfs for instance
<sphalerite_>
I think a partition will also still perform better than a file, even if the file isn't fragmented
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<92AACUWKJ>
[nixpkgs] andir pushed 2 new commits to master: https://git.io/vAnbN
<92AACUWKJ>
nixpkgs/master 9ce085f Andreas Rammhold: Merge pull request #35018 from andir/irssi-1.1.1...
<92AACUWKJ>
nixpkgs/master 4893d35 Andreas Rammhold: irssi: 1.1.0 -> 1.1.1...
<gchristensen>
also swap-on-zfs requires some guts
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<Dezgeg>
yes, if the filesystem can't support someone writing to the raw disk behind their back (i.e. CoW, checksums) then it should'nt claim supporting swap
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<sphalerite_>
Dezgeg: is the fragmentation thing still correct?
<sphalerite_>
AFAIU it is in fact rather unlikely to be the case with a filesystem like ext4, especially if it's created early on in the filesystem's lifetime
<Dezgeg>
yes, fragmentation still applies of course
<dhess>
sphalerite_: that's a good point, I had never considered the fragmentation issues.
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<dhess>
On the other hand, if I'm swapping so much that it matters I have other issues, and I prefer the flexibility of swapfiles vs. a fixed partition
<sphalerite_>
fair point
<nixer>
sphalerite_: thanks
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<nixer>
sphalerite_: Actually, I'm on OSX and this doesn't change the nix-daemon. Any easy way to restart the daemon?
<sphalerite_>
nixer: not sure how that setup works unfortunately. Maybe try #nix-darwin
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<mai_at_saturn>
after lots of scratching my head followed by running a long efibootmgr command I didn't understand, I've successfully installed nixOS (I hope). But now I really feel like I don't understand at all how grub and efi and boot stuff works. I'm not sure where I could learn more, anyone have any suggestion on resources?
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<mai_at_saturn>
(probably not exactly the correct channel, but close enough)
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<NixOS_GitHub>
[nixpkgs] shlevy pushed 1 new commit to master: https://git.io/vAcep
<ottidmes-laptop>
mai_at_saturn: boot.loader.systemd-boot.enable or (boot.loader.grub.device = "nodev"; and boot.loader.grub.efiSupport) should have handled that for you
<mai_at_saturn>
ottidmes-laptop, I had boot.loader.grub.efiSupport set to true, but I still always ended up at a "reboot and select proper device, or insert boot media in selected boot device" error message
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<mai_at_saturn>
i might have also cp'd grub/grub.efi to boot/bootx64.efi too, but I'm not sure if I already tried that before the efibootmgr command. The command, by the way, was described here: https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?pid=910369#p910369
<ottidmes-laptop>
mai_at_saturn: I had trouble with Grub on Arch Linux, which I tried to install first, there systemd-boot worked perfectly, so I used systemd-boot as well on NixOS at first, but I preferred Grub's UI, so I then tried Grub with those 2 options that worked as well for me. But just to get things working, I would recommend systemd-boot first
<mai_at_saturn>
I'm already writing from nixOS, so whatever I did worked, so I guess the problem would be that I'd like to understand what's happening.
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<ottidmes-laptop>
mai_at_saturn: Yeah, but I guess you want your installation to be reproducible, so I would document what you did to make it work, and then clean your /boot and try to reinstall just by using the NixOS options
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<mai_at_saturn>
that's a good idea, ottidmes-laptop. Thanks.
<ottidmes-laptop>
mai_at_saturn: You also want to set this to true: boot.loader.efi.canTouchEfiVariables
<ottidmes-laptop>
I believe I just had boot.loader.efi.canTouchEfiVariables and boot.loader.systemd-boot.enable both set to true and that worked for me
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<mai_at_saturn>
nixos-rebuild doesn't work, complaining about grub stuff, so I'll try right now. Thanks again for the help.
<ldlework>
garbas neat nix-virtualenv
<ldlework>
I hope it works
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<NixOS_GitHub>
[nixpkgs] primeos pushed 1 new commit to master: https://git.io/vAcJz
<NixOS_GitHub>
nixpkgs/master 0be2746 Michael Weiss: pythonPackages.scapy: 2.2.0 -> 2.3.3
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<mai_at_saturn>
ottidmes-laptop, your suggestion worked. just added your configuration changes, and started from a fresh /boot
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<ottidmes-laptop>
mai_at_saturn: Great to hear!
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<ottidmes-laptop>
mai_at_saturn: Personally I am using grub 2, just because I becomes really annoying that you cannot properly see the version and time of a configuration in the labels that are generated for systemd-boot entries, while in grub they are clearly readable, especially when you are experimenting and need to keep track of a valid configuration to go back to
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<ottidmes-laptop>
Maybe I should create an issue for that though
<mai_at_saturn>
maybe it would also work just changing canTouchEfiVariables, then. I might try that later.
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<makefu>
regarding gsoc, weirdly enough wireguard was chosen for a gsoc project. however what jason (main dev) did was mainly linking to the wireguard todo list ( https://www.wireguard.com/gsoc/ ).
<gchristensen>
jason is usually in here fwiw
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<dhess>
Did Nix(*) apply for GSoC?
<gchristensen>
yeah
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<dhess>
and?
<gchristensen>
declined
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<gchristensen>
they say it wa a close choice, but since some of our projects were ill-defined they declineed
<dhess>
too bad. Are there "actionable" items to correct for next time?
<gchristensen>
eyah, zimbatm sent a good email to the ML about it
<dhess>
oh cool, sometimes I forget there's an ML :)
<gchristensen>
:)
<makefu>
it feels like other projects had put a lot more effort into fleshing out their gsoc overview pages
<__monty__>
simpson: Not sure if double bluff or you actually think I don't know -.-
<bhipple[m]>
Since every enterprise env will generally start by putting multiuser on a Deb DE/build farm first
<simpson>
__monty__: Why ask questions if you already know the answer?
<__monty__>
Exactly.
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<simpson>
No, that was a real question; I don't know why you'd ask rhetorical questions on IRC.
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<simpson>
bhipple[m]: While I don't think that this is actually the adoption problem (I personally think people are just bad at change and need to be dragged kicking and screaming to victory sometimes) I agree that it's a good PR.
<__monty__>
The same issue holds in the arch community bhipple[m]. They're so deluded into thinking pacman's great that they believe it's nix's fault for not playing along nicely : )
<__monty__>
simpson: My retoric question was just a bit of fun, but also I like how haskell's slowly getting popular because of its merits rather than marketing.
<simpson>
__monty__: Haskell's got some pretty powerful marketing going on. Their memes are pretty popular. Really, any ML could have become popular, but for Haskell it seems quite memetic.
<gchristensen>
^
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<__monty__>
I disagree, SML never had an industry grade compiler afaik and ocaml still lacks proper multithreading support I believe.
<__monty__>
Only popular haskell meme I know is the monads and endofunctors one. Do tell me the others.
<simpson>
"monads" is massive. "purely functional" is another big one. "Haskell is maths" is one that used to be more common. There's lots of clinger-ons, like "static types, like in Haskell, are better than Language X".
<__monty__>
gchristensen: That's not obviously haskell imo.
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<simpson>
Folks do really want Hask to be Haskell. Too bad it isn't.
<tokudan[m]>
I'm having trouble compiling an npm module that seems to need a header file dns_sd.h, is there an easy way to add that somewhere in the node2nix generated expressions?
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<__monty__>
I think "monads" as a meme hurts haskell more than helps it spread.
<__monty__>
Most people like purity but not in the strict sense as in haskell, so again not a clear positive.
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<NixOS_GitHub>
[nixpkgs] bendlas pushed 1 new commit to master: https://git.io/vAct3
<__monty__>
Haskell's ADTs are amazing and nix should feel bad for being untyped ; )
<simpson>
Maybe. It's hard to say, but I think that *any* exposure to a meme can be "hazardous" or "infectious". Ever heard of Lojban, the logical language? I'm likely the first speaker you've ever talked to, but you probably picked up a meme letting you know of its existence years ago.
<mai_at_saturn>
I thought I understood that /etc/nixos/configuration.nix had all the informations needed to describe my system - for example, I could back it up, and install a copy of my system on another machine. While reading the manual, I ran nix-env -i hexchat, and now I can use hexchat. However, I can't find anything about hexchat in /etc/nixos/configuration.nix. I'm pretty sure I have some fundamental misunderstanding
<mai_at_saturn>
about how nixOS works.
<mai_at_saturn>
Say I wanted to back up everything I needed to install the same system again. What would I need to back up? Or even better, in addition to the nixOS manual, what should I read to learn more about nixOS? (Or do I just need to read the manual more carefully?)
<__monty__>
A Type can never be equal to something that's not a type : p
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<gchristensen>
mai_at_saturn: nix-env is imperativev package management. put hexchat tinconfiguration.nix yourself and then your backup story is true
<simpson>
mai_at_saturn: Your Nix user environments aren't stored in configuration.nix. They're managed by nix-env, like you've found. You can either maintain the list of packages in nix-env, or you can put them in configuration.nix, or you can put them in local .nix files which you use with nix-shell.
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<NixOS_GitHub>
nixpkgs/master b7b2a4f Herwig Hochleitner: connmand: add extraFlags option to service
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<NixOS_GitHub>
[nixpkgs] bendlas pushed 1 new commit to master: https://git.io/vActy
<__monty__>
Is there nothing left in $HOME that wouldn't be declarative?
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<mai_at_saturn>
Let me make sure I understand this conceptually: if I want something to be part of my "system", so that I can always "count" on it being that way, it goes in /etc/nixos/configuration.nix. As long as I do this, by backing up /etc/nixos/configuration.nix I always get the same "system" as defined earlier.
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<ottidmes-laptop>
__monty__: If you use something like home-manager, then even $HOME could be declerative as well
<tokudan[m]>
mai_at_saturn: basically yes. if you include other files from configuration.nix, you need to backup them as well, of course
<mai_at_saturn>
I think I get it. Thanks.
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<ottidmes-laptop>
mai_at_saturn: And if you build your own custom installer iso, which is quite easy to do in NixOS, you can even simplify the steps needed for prepping a system to install NixOS on. I have an installer that includes things like making git checkouts, so it truly becomes, prepping the file system and calling my install script, and I am back in my described environment
<quqvv>
When I run a nix-shell shebang script in a pre-commit hook, it complains "Not a git repository"
<quqvv>
When I run the same script directly, there's no problem. Does that make sense?
<quqvv>
(I can also solve the immediately issue via setting GIT_DIR, but I'd like to understand what's going on and that also introduces other problems)
<mai_at_saturn>
I guess what I still don't get, then, is what the nix user environments are *meant* to be used for.
<ottidmes-laptop>
mai_at_saturn: If you want to allow users to install their own packages, that would be one use case
<ottidmes-laptop>
mai_at_saturn: Personally I only use nix-env when I want to use something for a short time (test, one time usage, etc.)
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<quqvv>
Nevermind. It was actually a git issue, not a nix complication
<NixOS_GitHub>
nixpkgs/master 64fa0d5 Tuomas Tynkkynen: kernel: Add deps for building 4.16
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<NixOS_GitHub>
nixpkgs/master 7a7e8a8 Tuomas Tynkkynen: kernel config: Disable USB_SERIAL_* on 4.16 and above...
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<tertleeltret>
hi
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<WilliamHamilton>
hi, after a `nixos-rebuild switch --upgrade` my firefox has no sound (I install it in the global nixos configuration, and tried removing it and adding it again); do you have any idea on how I could debug this problem?
<tgunb>
rnhmjoj[m]: where am i supposed to put your code?
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<sphalerite_>
I've set networking.wireless.userControlled.enable = true; but it doesn't seem to have had any effect on the wpa_supplicant unit and I still can't use wpa_cli. Why might this be?
<rnhmjoj[m]>
tgunb: is this about firefox?
<sphalerite_>
WilliamHamilton: that's odd and I don't know the solution to your problem, but I opened a sound-related PR for firefox today https://github.com/NixOS/nixpkgs/pull/35005
<sphalerite_>
WilliamHamilton: enabling pulse may or may not fix stuff for you too
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<sphalerite_>
WilliamHamilton: try setting nixpkgs.config.firefox.pulseaudio to true, rebuilding and switching, and check if it works then
<sphalerite_>
WilliamHamilton: assuming you're using pulseaudio, that is.
<sphalerite_>
if you're not it probably won't have any effect
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<WilliamHamilton>
sphalerite_: will do in a moment, I didn't use pulseaudio till now (does that mean I'm using alsa? I never looked into the difference)
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<WilliamHamilton>
sphalerite_: another thing I noticed trying to debug the firefox problem, is that most of the games packaged with nix fail to start; but let me check the pulseaudio stuff first
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<NixOS_GitHub>
[nixpkgs] matthewbauer opened pull request #35022: nix-buffer: make eshell-path-env be inherited (master...patch-10) https://git.io/vAc39
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<sphalerite_>
WilliamHamilton: yeah enabling pulseaudio generally might fix your problem even if you don't set the firefox option
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<NixOS_GitHub>
[nixpkgs] bendlas pushed 1 new commit to master: https://git.io/vAc3b
<NixOS_GitHub>
nixpkgs/master 8ac63bd Herwig Hochleitner: clojure: fix for running in pure environments...
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<Leo`>
I have a derivation which cannot be reached from amy root (as reported by nix-store at least) but nix-collect-gc won't collect it. Any idea why and how I can force-remove it?
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<sphalerite_>
WilliamHamilton: since iirc dmix isn't enabled for alsa by default whic means only one program can access audio devices at a time
<sphalerite_>
WilliamHamilton: so your issue may also be fixed by stopping anything else that's got audio open before starting firefox (try lsof /dev/snd/* to see what's accessing it)
<sphalerite_>
Overall pulseaudio is an easier way of solving the problem though, I'd say
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<WilliamHamilton>
sphalerite_: tangential question: when I do nixos-rebuild switch, do I generally need a reboot to be sure that hardware changes are been followed on? How do I think about this in general?
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<WilliamHamilton>
sphalerite_: the dmix stuff would explain something for sure, ok the rebuild has finished
<sphalerite_>
Leo`: did you run the nix-store -q --roots as a regular user? There may be in-memory reerences to it which can only be read by superuser but are nevertheless preventing gc of it
<Leo`>
sphalerite_: No, as root.
<Leo`>
(Well, at least I just tried again as root and same result.)
<sphalerite_>
WilliamHamilton: most changes can be applied without rebooting. Key exceptions are the kernel and some services that won't be restarted automatically like display-manager
<sphalerite_>
Leo`L and nix-store --delete <path> also tells you it can't be deleted?
<sphalerite_>
WilliamHamilton: in the latter case you can still restart them manually, but with display-manager for instance you'll want to be careful since it'll kill any graphical sessions
<Leo`>
sphalerite_: Hmm. Cannot delete it since it's still alive.
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<WilliamHamilton>
sphalerite_: for now enabling pulseaudio didn't seem to solve the problem; just to be sure, I'll try a rebbot
<WilliamHamilton>
reboot*
<sphalerite_>
WilliamHamilton: logging out and back in should be enough for this case
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<sphalerite_>
Leo`: do you very desperately need to be rid of it?
<Leo`>
Kinda.
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<sphalerite_>
Try rebooting and then running nix-store --delete again
<sphalerite_>
out of curiosity – why?
<Leo`>
Well I'm not entirely sure, but it's a custom derivation and I'm afraid I completely messed up with it and want to build it again.
<sphalerite_>
You don't need to delete it
<sphalerite_>
If you change the derivation it will result in a different derivation hash, thus a different output path
<Leo`>
Yes but I cannot change the derivation since it does basically nothing except cloning the repository.
<sphalerite_>
still, you don't need to delete it
<Leo`>
But for some reason .pyc files appeared in the /nix/store. I thought the /nix/store was supposed to be read-only but eh??
<Leo`>
I'm still trying to figure out how these ended up there.
<WilliamHamilton>
sphalerite_: I eventually rebooted, not having read your comment in time, and I'm happy that it works now! Thanks for the help, I'm going to use pulseaudio from now on 😅
<Leo`>
So my intuition was: remove that thing and build it again.
<sphalerite_>
WilliamHamilton: glad to hear it!
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<sphalerite_>
Leo`: yes, it is supposed to be. Sometimes python manages to write them anyway (not sure of the details)
<sphalerite_>
but in this case you'll probably want nix-store --repair-path
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<Leo`>
Ha maybe.
<Leo`>
The issue I have is very weird.
<Leo`>
I'm trying to package some Django application.
<Leo`>
And when I run it manually from the version installed in the /nix/store it works...
<Leo`>
When I run it manually from the *exact* same revision but cloned elsewhere it fails with a strange database error that no amounts of syncdb can fix...?
<Leo`>
It's really getting me mad.
<fragamus>
Hi I am trying to get haskell stack to run on nixos and it seems there has been some problems over the years. Can anyone tell me how to do it?
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<Leo`>
Urhhhh. I used repair-path and that got rid of the .pyc. And now: if I copy the code from the /nix/store and run it, the bug happens, if I link to it, it works.
<sphalerite_>
why are wpa_supplican't human factors so bad… config manpage consisting purely of examples, CLI containing some 50 commands that most users won't care about and not making the most important ones obvious...
<sphalerite_>
Leo`: why are you copying it out anyway?
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