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<quinn> confused question, am i supposed to put together a boot image from uboot<board>.aarch64-linux, or can i just use nixos.sd_image.aarch64-linux?
<samueldr> quinn: depends on the board
<samueldr> depends on how it is configured too
<samueldr> but generally you need the u-boot for your board in some manner, and the sd_image
<quinn> samueldr: i'm using a rock64, which does have a (custom?) uboot from ayufan i guess
<samueldr> "in some manner" means it can be burned into the sd image, or made available through other means like a second storage it boots from, or an on-board Flash for the "bios"
<samueldr> quinn: you also have to know where it is :)
<samueldr> if it's on the storage you're gonna erase to put in the sd image, you're back to square one!
<samueldr> luckily the rock64 is maintained well enough https://nixos.wiki/wiki/NixOS_on_ARM/PINE64_ROCK64
<quinn> samueldr: i'm looking at that page, but i'm not sure how it all fits together. do i dd the install image on first, and then dd the u-boot files with the seek argument?
<samueldr> that's the usual method
<samueldr> you might have to first delete the FAT32 partition (first partition) from the sd image
<samueldr> I'm not sure u-boot fits in the space before it
<samueldr> that FAT32 partition is *only useful for the raspberry pis)
<samueldr> *
<quinn> hmm. i think i get it. instantiating the uboot files is taking forever but i think i'm set, thank you so much
<quinn> samueldr++
<{^_^}> samueldr's karma got increased to 241, that's Numberwang!
<lopsided98> I'd like to add hydra-build-products to U-Boot, so people can download it from the Hydra web interface
<samueldr> lopsided98: what's stopping us?
<samueldr> hmmm
<samueldr> yeah, nothing, except for armv7l
<quinn> lopsided98: i would like that, i haven't done cross compilation before so my process was. click actions button in upper left on hydra page -> it doesn't work -> try to build pkgs.ubootRock64 -> it doesn't work -> google compiler options to find out i needed to be doing cross compilation -> finally use pkgsCross and then it works
<quinn> (not absentmindedly complaining, just "marketing"/noob onboarding feedback)
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<craige_> I'm building armv7 on x86_64 and I'm seeing: bash: ./tobin: cannot execute binary file: Exec format error". Anyone encountered that before?
<craige_> I suspect it's this: https://github.com/NixOS/nixpkgs/pull/63866
<{^_^}> #63866 (by dingxiangfei2009, 1 year ago, merged): alsa-firmware: enable cross compilation
<quinn> is there a way to select generations on boot with u-boot? i'm using hdmi so maybe it works over serial?
<quinn> *extlinux i guess
<samueldr> all "outputs" show the same output
<samueldr> and yes, serial or hdmi
<samueldr> and yes, it uses the extlinux file format
<samueldr> (not the actual extlinux bootloader)
<quinn> i don't get any HDMI output until partway through user-mode, possibly because the gpu is slow to start. is there generation selection earlier in the process that i'm not seeing?
<samueldr> possibly
<samueldr> I don't know if your board (forgot which) has hdmi output in u-boot
<quinn> it's rock64. i've heard people talk about it being slow to output. do you have an over-under on it giving output pre-kernel with the serial?
<samueldr> you don't have serial, right?
<samueldr> oh
<samueldr> you have serial
<samueldr> it should give output
<samueldr> you can also stop the boot and see if hdmi ever gets picked up
<quinn> yup! serial over gpio. stopping boot is a good idea, is there a keypress for that or do i need to hit jumpers?
<quinn> jump the gpio*
<samueldr> press keys when prompted to (or before) on serial
<quinn> samueldr: is it "press any key"? tried it with random keys and no luck
<clever> quinn: and the tx->rx is wired properly? can you see boot messages?
<quinn> no, i can't. i'm on hdmi. i'm trying to trigger u-boot to stop booting so i can see if not seeing hdmi output there is because gpu is slow, or because it doesn't work at all
<quinn> tx-rx is serial i assume
<samueldr> ah, if it's hdmi, then you'd need usb, which *that* I don't know if it's supported
<samueldr> but if you see those messages
<samueldr> hdmi works on u-boot
<samueldr> so I think I see what your issue is
<samueldr> hdmi is on during u-boot, off during early linux boot, and on later during the boot, right?
<samueldr> if so, you need to add the right (which?) kernel modules to your initrd
<quinn> i mean the issue is that i want to select generations, so idk if adding kernel modules would help
<samueldr> as noted, this is not the most minimal list
<samueldr> ah, no, it wouldn't
<samueldr> you'll need usb I guess
<samueldr> now, I don't really know about u-boot for rock64 and usb, sorry
<quinn> or serial? if that's what i need, that's chill. i'll buy it. i just don't like waste so i wanted to make sure i needed it
<quinn> "need" i realize you may not know confidently it'll work, but it's worth getting and trying cause this is for semi-production use, don't want to have to wait on the mail to roll back something important
<samueldr> a way to get serial on such boards is probably one of the most valuable tools you can get
<clever> when working on the rpi-open-firmware, serial was my ONLY way to talk to the system for months, because usb-host didnt work, and hdmi didnt work
<clever> without serial, your only way out is log files, and it wasnt even able to run printf at first, lol
<clever> its rather hard to debug anything when not even printf works!
<samueldr> I usually say: get at least one (1) good quality serial cable, from a trustable source, and maybe a couple cheap-o ebay ones so you can leave cheap-o ones with a board as an unfinished project without remorse
<clever> ive got an ftdi i use for everything, and i need more of them
<samueldr> real ones or cheap-o ones?
<quinn> haha, i did feel SUPER SOL when i was just screwing with the partition table and it was silently failing to boot. serial does sound really good
<clever> samueldr: i believe its an authentic ftdi
<samueldr> it may even be useful for non-SBCs in the future, you never know! (but maybe not)
<clever> only problem ive had recently, is that the usb layer tends to reconnect sometimes when plugging in the gnd signal
<clever> i have used the ftdi to get boot logs out of my cable box before
<patagonicus> Nice, the HC2 finished rebuilding the system in ~10h, I think. Definitely faster than a RPi3. :D
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<fps> hmm, how would i go about updating the rpi4 firmware to the newest one?
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<clever> fps: the rpi-eeprom-update script should be in nixpkgs now, by default it shoves some magic files into /boot/ (which must be the fat32 partition), and does the real flashing at reboot, but it also has a flashrom mode to reflash at runtime
<clever> fps: and start4.elf is updated seperately, not sure what the recommended way is on nixos
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<colemickens> I booted raspbian on a spare card tbh.
<colemickens> Though I need to update to stable now that it's out, I could give it a shot since the rpi4 updates have hit unstable.
<clever> this is using rpi-eeprom-config from an x86 (and nixos) machine, to make the magic files for an SD card manually
<clever> and if you have netboot enabled, and put similar files onto the tftp server, it will reflash itself on boot
<clever> if the files are still present at boot, it will diff itself on every boot, and only reflash when a diff occured
<clever> but there are 2 chunks of firmware for the rpi4, there is the eeprom firmware, and the start4.elf on /boot/
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<patagonicus> Huh. With my system I recompiled on the HC2 the SATA port doesn't work anymore. I'll need to figure out what's different from the cross compiled installer later, probably some modules.
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<srk> patagonicus: no need to, I'm happy to help. you can always contribute back via wiki docs, PRs and helping others which is much appreciated because it saves us time :)
<fps> clever: thanks!
<patagonicus> srk: Your choice. :P
<patagonicus> Yeah, I want to add the instructions to the wiki when I have some spare time.
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<patagonicus> Oh, I didn't notice it earlier, but the old generation now also doesn't recognize the SATA SSD correctly. Maybe it's just that reboot is broken (I've read some things about having to run a command to make HDDs park their heads on shutdown with the HC2, so maybe that's related).
<patagonicus> Yep. Did a full shut down and replugged the power supply, now the new generation recognizes the SSD. Hmm. That will need some fixing, I want unattended upgrades. :)
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<srk> [10:16] < patagonicus> Yeah, I want to add the instructions to the wiki when I have some spare time.
<srk> Top Gu[10:11] < fps> clever: thanks!n
<srk> [10:16] <patagonicus> | srk: Your choice. :P
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<jwaksbaum[m]> <fps "hmm, how would i go about updati"> Maybe there's a better way than this, but I wrote a nix expression to package `rpi-eeprom-update` and some instructions [here](https://git.sr.ht/~jakewaksbaum/pi/tree/d4adc5ac729048b9f431359b67020b5a11420669/machines/par/rpi-eeprom/).
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<patagonicus> Sigh, choices. I can't decide on what size of HDDs to get for my HC2 setup. And if I want to go with a (basically) RAID5 with 3 disks or a RAID10 with 4 disks. The latter would obviously mean adding one more HC2 into the mix, but compared to the drives they're cheap.
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<patagonicus> The odroid-xu3-bootloader package is a bit … annoying. It's only available for armv7, which makes a bit of sense, but I think that's only for the u-boot part, because all the bootloader package does is combining the u-boot blob with a few binary files from hardkernel and a shell script that will dd the files to the right place on an sd card. But because you have to install the armv7
<patagonicus> package the bash script doesn't run on x86.
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<hoverbear> So, I am very impressed with the aarch64 support for nix. :)
<hoverbear> Could anyone recommend a nice aarch board with a lot of power?
<samueldr> no
<samueldr> because there isn't one that is nice
<samueldr> :')
<samueldr> hoverbear: are you budget-constrained?
<gchristensen> the /topic is useful for experimenting
<hoverbear> Not at all :)
<hoverbear> This would be a business purchase for me
<gchristensen> $5kUSD?
<samueldr> can your business go with cloud?
<hoverbear> gchristensen: Show me it =D
<samueldr> that ampere dev machine?
<gchristensen> yea
<hoverbear> samueldr: I mean, my ideal board would be like a SoC I could co-lo near a x86 mobo and hook up over a nice link
<samueldr> that, too, doesn't exist
<samueldr> well
<samueldr> it kinda does
<samueldr> those PCIe "edge" devices maybe can be abused to do this?
<samueldr> not sure if they're "powerful" though
<samueldr> they are network cards with ARM computing inside
<samueldr> I don't know much else
<hoverbear> Oh I would be very interested in those...
<samueldr> like, I don't even know a name for one
<hoverbear> Well, I can cross compile on x86, so I really just need to test it. I'd be very very interested in dropping a build of my observability router we make onboard a network card....
<samueldr> and then if it's even accessible to the end-user
<hoverbear> omfg.
<hoverbear> I am DROOLING
<samueldr> ah, *that's* the useful page for the avantek one https://store.avantek.co.uk/ampere-emag-64bit-arm-workstation.html
<samueldr> I'm sure a good chunk of the users here would want to drive one of those :)
<hoverbear> Yeah no I would love to be able to have a dedicated 2 port network card running an embedded aarch vector, wow.
<hoverbear> That'd be amazing.
<samueldr> I'm pretty sure other vendors have similar "smart" network cards
<samueldr> I really don't know what's possible with those though
<samueldr> but I do agree it looks like a neat solution to just get some aarch64 compute near your desktop
<hoverbear> Yeah omg thank you very much
<samueldr> if you do some research about the market, and what you can and cannot do with those, it'd be interesting to see your conclusions, even if inconclusive
<samueldr> I guess the main points are: how do they boot? do you own the boot flow? what do they boot?
<samueldr> and maybe attached to this "what's the networking for? how does it interact with the host system?"
<samueldr> I mean, it's all good questions for your use case!
<gchristensen> hoverbear: ARM cores are comparatively not very good
<hoverbear> Yeah, I mostly want a test bed for running my stuff.
<gchristensen> but they can have way more
<samueldr> you might want to get a raspi, even if terrible, if it's just to run things
<hoverbear> samueldr: Could I like strip down an aarch phone?
<samueldr> maybe
<hoverbear> Or like an fpga? :laugh:
<gchristensen> like that emag 8180 has 32 pretty okay cores
<samueldr> yes, but is the fpga good enough to run aarch64 well? :)
<gchristensen> vs. the thunderx2 which had like 48 pretty crap cores
<hoverbear> Since nix is so good at CC I think it's fine if I find something smaller and just CC to it.
<samueldr> it probably has an ARM (though v7) that does ARM better than the FPGA can!
<samueldr> https://mobile.nixos.org/ <- about phones... maybe
<samueldr> but it's not necessarily a trivial answer
<gchristensen> note Nix can't mix cross-compiled packages and natively-compiled packages well
<hoverbear> So I mostly work on network stuff, which means those network cards you linked are basically top tier machine porn for me
<samueldr> a nix system can run mixed packages well, a build will be YMMV
<gchristensen> right
<hoverbear> Soooo I'd be targetting like embedded/musl anyways
<samueldr> hoverbear: if you have a qualcomm phone you probably could use it to do your bidding rather trivially
<samueldr> assuming it can run custom stuff
<samueldr> off of android, probably not though
<hoverbear> Yeah but phones don't have network chips
<samueldr> ah, except if you need hardware virtualisation
<samueldr> the modem would like to disagree!
<samueldr> ;)
<hoverbear> The one with gpbs connectors?
<samueldr> I don't know what that is
<samueldr> and I was not totally serious
<hoverbear> Keyboard gobble gook gigabit
<samueldr> ah, you want *wired* networking :)
<hoverbear> Yes I write distributed systems for clouds
<hoverbear> And stuff
<samueldr> you're gonna hate me, but you could use a type-c gigabit interface on some devices
<samueldr> if the device is cool, it may also do PD fine enough!
<hoverbear> I mean that's fine but if I can plug in a PCI-E card and just shell into an aarch machine I'm so frigging on board
<samueldr> yeah
<samueldr> definitely a cool thing, hearing from your use case, maybe a market segment?
<samueldr> is the card offline when your computer goes to sleep? :)
<hoverbear> Also a curiousity for me!
* samueldr has plans
<samueldr> well, not plans, but idea
<hoverbear> I mean if I get one I'll definitely give you a shell
<hoverbear> I'm trying to figure out a nice slick build box that I can use for my dev and do some fun stuff with
<samueldr> that ampere machine is definitely something quite good for building
<samueldr> hah, finally remembered
<hoverbear> Ooooooo
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<samueldr> and more people are likely to have them
<gchristensen> you might give the c2.large.arm on Packet a try -- they're the emag 8180
<hoverbear> samueldr: This looks great
<samueldr> it has some SFP nonsense
<samueldr> (meaning I don't know how to make good use of that :))
<hoverbear> So this mellanox is an armv8? Is that aarch64?
<samueldr> it probably is
<samueldr> contrary to what you will find online, no armv8 is not aarch64 only... confusingly enough :(
<hoverbear> gchristensen: I think it loses the fun if it's a cloud machine. Part of what I want is not to rely on a reliable network connection
<gchristensen> yeah
<gchristensen> I'm just saying you might want to try the cores out
<hoverbear> Maybe! =D I can try
<gchristensen> because to me you're setting some requirements for what you want and then proposing ideas that don't match what you've said are requiremetns
<hoverbear> Last time I tried to boot one of them on packet it took an hour though
<hoverbear> gchristensen: Yes because it's saturday afternoon and I'm rambling. :( Sorry. I have many ideas.
<gchristensen> no worries
<gchristensen> I'm not annoyed or anything, I'm just worried about you dropping some money on something and finding it to not match what you think you're getting
<samueldr> hoverbear: if you want to know if it is aarch64 or not, the Cortex-Axx core name is how would know; it might also not have such a name and use a name specific to the vendor, and that too is how you'd find out
<samueldr> it's also how you'd find out if it's a 32 bit capable aarch64 device
<hoverbear> So, my understanding is aarch64 are 64 bit no?
<gchristensen> there is *so* little consistency in the ARM ecosystem that you have to be very careful, and in general I would caution any idea of "powerful" based on any specific core count
<samueldr> yes, aarch64 is 64 bit
<hoverbear> gchristensen: Yes I'm not buying anything today.
<samueldr> but like x86_64 can do x86 (32 bit), some aarch64 can run in 32 bit mode
<samueldr> cores are not a good indication of anything without knowing what they are
<samueldr> like those "octa-core" phones
<gchristensen> yeah
<samueldr> they are likely BIG.little, hopefully 4/4
<samueldr> maybe 2/6
<samueldr> which means you get 4 lower power (in processing and electricity) and 4 higher power cores
<samueldr> likely different core types
<samueldr> e.g. RK3399 has 2 Cortex-A72 and 4 Cortex-A53
<hoverbear> Right, so what I mostly care abut is "Get packet from in, to out" I don't really care about raw CPU benches etc
<gchristensen> you don't want to build on it, then?
<hoverbear> If I can run on a network card all by myself and talk directly to the ports, I am so on board.
<hoverbear> I think now that I'm confident in the cross compilation, I could compile on like a ryzen and deploy to the aarch
<gchristensen> I think that is a decent enough idea
<samueldr> if your clients end up deciding on what it runs, it may end up running on lesser networked hardware like a raspberry pi, so maybe a good idea to have them to test?
<gchristensen> and if you need, you could rent a powerful aarch64 builder to supplement
<samueldr> (in addition to better stuff)
<hoverbear> samueldr: Yes our clients already get a generic one. :) I would love to do a little R&D on my own time with this idea though
<samueldr> EEK
<hoverbear> We have arm builds at https://vector.dev/releases/0.9.2/download/
<hoverbear> Oh no
<hoverbear> All of them are pricey
<gchristensen> mellanox :)
* samueldr wonders how hard it is to get a CM3 on PCIe
<hoverbear> So https://www.arduino.cc/pro/hardware/product/portenta-h7 will be an arm7 right?
<hoverbear> ... 2 arm7s?
<samueldr> which is armv7e, it looks like
<hoverbear> Bollocks
<gchristensen> ARMv7E-M I don't even know what v7e is ...
<samueldr> the -M cores are different from the -A cores
<samueldr> gchristensen: AFAIK the inportant bit is -M
<hoverbear> You know, maybe I should just cultivate my interest in SDNs and SDRs instead.
<gchristensen> do both!
<gchristensen> you can play IdleRPG just reading the ARM product definitios
<hoverbear> Yup okay where's the #nixos-sdn channel
<hoverbear> I hope all this new darwin stuff will increase the amount of options in the ecosystem for hardware. :)
<samueldr> hopefully it will help other vendors care for the not-totally-overkill not-totally-embedded range of hardware
<gchristensen> to be honest I doubt it will
<gchristensen> maybe
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<gchristensen> but I worry the silicon will be customised so much that it doesn't resemble any other platform enough
<samueldr> they "can't" for the ARM instruction set base AFAIUI
<gchristensen> yeah
<hoverbear> Oh I fully expect Apple to screw evertying up royally somehow
<samueldr> I really think it may make other silicon vendor care about that mostly untapped segment
<samueldr> because like it or not, they are leaders in a cargo cult
<samueldr> they do something, the industry copies what they observe
<samueldr> okay
<samueldr> my system is broken
<samueldr> I can't start nix builds
<samueldr> Jun 27 17:21:51 clancywiggum nix-daemon[5402]: unexpected Nix daemon error: writing to file: Broken pipe
<hoverbear> Yeah -- Lately playing with wasm has kind of made me not interested in physical architectures as much
<hoverbear> omg wtf?
<samueldr> I really don't know
<samueldr> things are just wonky since I unsuspended the computer
<samueldr> like the `firefox` command hangs
<hoverbear> samueldr: Did the nix daemon not wake up or something?
<samueldr> tried restarting the daemon
<samueldr> firefox command uses systemd thingy for restricting resources uses
<samueldr> so probably related
<gchristensen> I tweaked my freezer to freeze programs after 5 minutes of me ignoring them, and it fixed most of the bugs I had with it
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<samueldr> no freeze, only restricted resources, but I think it's only a symptom
<samueldr> systemd couldn't exit any services at shutdown
<samueldr> everything was just broken
<gchristensen> aaah
<samueldr> but nothing suspicious in dmesg
<samueldr> I hate this
<samueldr> since the kernel didn't seem aware, to me it almost sounds like *something* happened in systemd
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