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<ikwildrpepper>
deploying eris with openssl patches
<ikwildrpepper>
patches -> new version (from nixos-20.09-small)
<zimbatm[m]>
FYI: discourse.nixos.org has stopped sending emails are we are above our daily limit in the free plan
<zimbatm[m]>
ryantm has contacted their support and they are asking us to upgrade to the $150.-/month plan
<ikwildrpepper>
zimbatm[m]: hm, I see 100 and 300 plans?
<ikwildrpepper>
eris -> ceres
<zimbatm[m]>
we get a 50% OSS discount
<ikwildrpepper>
zimbatm[m]: hm, even though we are not a non-profit in their definition?
<ikwildrpepper>
(tax exempt)
<zimbatm[m]>
I'm just relaying what their support said
<ikwildrpepper>
thnx
<ikwildrpepper>
is there an admin account in pass store?
<zimbatm[m]>
the admins are individual accounts
<ikwildrpepper>
zimbatm[m]: are you admin?
<ikwildrpepper>
if so, could I be added as well?
<zimbatm[m]>
I would have to kick one other admin out :)
<ikwildrpepper>
do we currently pay for discourse?
<ikwildrpepper>
as it doesn't seem to be on our creditcard
<zimbatm[m]>
we are on their free OSS plan at the moment
<ikwildrpepper>
ah
<zimbatm[m]>
we could go down the self-hosted route
<zimbatm[m]>
I did a quick calculation and it would be more expensive to run Discourse on AWS than upgrading to their plan, even without factoring human time into the equation
<ikwildrpepper>
yeah, anything on AWS will be more expensive to self host :D
<zimbatm[m]>
we could get a hetzner box + SES for emails and that would be cheaper. But it means managing Discourse, Postgres + backup&restore
<zimbatm[m]>
slap Fastly in front
<zimbatm[m]>
on the plus side, we can then install a bunch of plugins that we weren't allowed to before
<zimbatm[m]>
I must say I quite enjoy not having to do anything for Discourse to keep working :p
<ikwildrpepper>
wonder why they say we have to go to 300 plan
<ikwildrpepper>
if we are limited by 5000 emails now
<ikwildrpepper>
ah 100k per month
<ikwildrpepper>
we can't force some digest option in the emails ? :D
<zimbatm[m]>
I like your thinking :p
<ikwildrpepper>
zimbatm[m]: anyway, if there is no obvious/easy way to keep using the current plan, we'll just have to start paying. I'm a bit worried though, that we will not fall into the 50% discount category
<ikwildrpepper>
and that we'll need to pay 300/month
<ikwildrpepper>
we can't use SES with the current hosted version?
<zimbatm[m]>
looking at the outbound emails, I see most of them are caused by "mailing_list" types
<zimbatm[m]>
some people are using Discourse like a mailing list
<zimbatm[m]>
I don't think so
<ikwildrpepper>
lame
<ikwildrpepper>
:)
<zimbatm[m]>
there are ~75 users that get an email for each message being posted to Discourse
<ikwildrpepper>
yeah, was wondering if perhaps we should limit that
<gchristensen>
The channels nixos-20.09-small and nixos-unstable-small both have the openssl upgrade in place. If you're looking to patch, use these channels for now.
<ikwildrpepper>
gchristensen: yeah, used nixos-20.09-small
<ikwildrpepper>
it is deployed to ceres and eris
<gchristensen>
nice
<zimbatm[m]>
ikwildrpepper: I found the option, but am reluctant on disabling it. Discourse was sold as a replacement to the mailing list so it will make people unhappy
<gchristensen>
that crossed my mind too
<niksnut>
well, that's exactly it: it's a *replacement* of the mailing list, not an actual mailing list
<aminechikhaoui>
oops I never open discourse.nixos.org I just have mailing list mode on, I guess I'm one of the 75
<ikwildrpepper>
shame on you aminechikhaoui
<aminechikhaoui>
tho' I thought everybody did the same setting after the mailing list switch
<aminechikhaoui>
Lol
<aminechikhaoui>
can't keep up with all the websites
<domenkozar[m]>
Jonas Chevalier: +1 for paying them
<domenkozar[m]>
at least for the time being
<supersandro2000>
just send them digest mails
<domenkozar[m]>
given that our time is scarce and we have plenty of donations, I think it's clear what resource to use
<supersandro2000>
reduces the amount of mail spam you get
<zimbatm[m]>
it does seem silly to pay $150.-/month for 75 people in the community
<domenkozar[m]>
it's for 5000 emails per day
<domenkozar[m]>
I rely for example on replys to come from email
<supersandro2000>
Am I the only one that thinks thats a bit much for mails?
<gchristensen>
maybe those 75 people would contribute for the purpose
<ikwildrpepper>
btw, it might be $300 / month
<zimbatm[m]>
good point about the email replies
<ikwildrpepper>
so assume it will be $300
<domenkozar[m]>
I doubt that it's 75 people that make up 5000 emails, it's a lot of replys to threads, etc
<ikwildrpepper>
so that's 15% of the regular monthly donations
<zimbatm[m]>
yesterday we had 61 posts * 75 == 4575 emails
<domenkozar[m]>
Jonas Chevalier: can we get a list of those 75 users?
<domenkozar[m]>
I'd then email them and ask them if they find that useful at all
<domenkozar[m]>
and how to unsubscribe if not
<ikwildrpepper>
btw, note that I am not against paying if we decide it is useful
<supersandro2000>
can we disable mailing list for those users until we have decided what to do so that we don't run out of mails and can re-enable it later?
<ikwildrpepper>
just want to make sure we make an informed decision
<gchristensen>
I'd propose saying something publicly an dask mailing list users to contribute
<ikwildrpepper>
when communicating, can we please use the most conservative costs?
<gchristensen>
why's that?
<ikwildrpepper>
unless we know for sure we are eligible for the open source discount
<gchristensen>
ah
<ikwildrpepper>
gchristensen: well, support says the plan is 150/month, which according to the website is for open source projects with foundations which are tax exempt
<zimbatm[m]>
ikwildrpepper: check your emails
<zimbatm[m]>
cced the thread between discourse support and ryan
<zimbatm[m]>
I misread the thread
<zimbatm[m]>
> $150 is not an option. The guy from Discourse seems sure $75 a month would be fine for now, but I remain skeptical about his math and think it probably has to be the $300/month plan at least somewhat soon.
<zimbatm[m]>
sooo.. yeah..
<hexa->
I am also one of those mailing list mode users
<ikwildrpepper>
hexa-: :)
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<hexa->
supersandro2000: if you are recommending downgrading it to digest, pls just kill the feature entirely. digests are th worst.
<gchristensen>
lol, relax a bit
<ikwildrpepper>
hehe
<hexa->
I'm just like: have you ever seen someone reply to a digest? That's madness.
<gchristensen>
yeah it is terrible
<gchristensen>
I think we can probably find people wanting to pay specifically for keeping the mailing list
<ikwildrpepper>
zimbatm[m]: looks like the 300 / month wouldn't have the discount
<ikwildrpepper>
(even if we were eligible, which we are not imho)
<gchristensen>
why not?
<ikwildrpepper>
according to the website: ... If you are legally recognized as a non-profit organization that is exempt from federal taxes, we offer a 50% discount....
<gchristensen>
ah
<ikwildrpepper>
basically only for 501c3's (US) and ANBI (NL)
<gchristensen>
how much does a anbi cost, and how many months of discourse at 150/mo discount would pay for it
<ikwildrpepper>
anbi is not possible, the scope of nixos foundation would not be considered for common good
<gchristensen>
ah
<domenkozar[m]>
it's worth to ask in support, they usually have the authority to override those rules
<ikwildrpepper>
domenkozar[m]: yeah, agreed, asking can never hurt
<gchristensen>
nixos-20.09's tested job finished, but there are 8,000 jobs remaining before the channel will davance. I'm considering killing the remaining jobs, letting the channel advance, and then restarting the jobs to backfill the channel. rude, or worth it?
<FRidh>
mailing mode user here as well. In my opinion, its too many mails nowadays so I've been thinking of turning it off, but then its so easy to miss things. I wish we had a "normal" mailing list again for announcements and "important" discussions.
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<gchristensen>
FRidh: what do you think re tested ^
<FRidh>
gchristensen: I suppose the odds are small people will have many of the not yet build packages. The building is annoying, but the impact is probably small.
<supersandro2000>
you can also subscribe to the announcement category and get mails for everything in there
<supersandro2000>
less mails with better content
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<zimbatm[m]>
what I do is subscribe to the first-posts in categories I am interested in following closely. Then if I engage in a post, then I will receive follow-up replies by email as well.
<zimbatm[m]>
I mass-emailed the 75 users, let's see what happens next
<zimbatm[m]>
my guesstimate is that we are good for another 6 months
<zimbatm[m]>
in the meantime, we should think about what the best way to self-host would be
<ryantm>
I'm expecting at least some blowback from people who didn't like that Discourse replaced the mailinglist.
<flokli>
so, I do really like local full text search, in my MUA
<zimbatm[m]>
that's fine. we are not turning the feature off
<zimbatm[m]>
(for now) :)
<flokli>
and I assume many others using mailing list mode also use it for that purpose
<zimbatm[m]>
let's see what the ratio is before going down that path
<ryantm>
I host a Discourse instance on Linode where the database is on the same machine as the web server, and we pay $40/mo. It looks like it gets less pageviews than discourse.nixos.org but it doesn't have resource issues at all, so it would probably be okay.
<zimbatm[m]>
if 20 people stop using the mailing-list mode, we're good
<ryantm>
When you have the Database on the same machine as the web server, you end up with some downtime when upgrading but usually only about 5 minutes every month or so.
<flokli>
zimbatm[m]: can we export the database to our own instance at all?
<gchristensen>
I'm not super keen burning volunteer time on discourse maintenance
<ryantm>
flokli: yes
<flokli>
Well, on the other hand, considering it's packaged in NixOS, why not have some people host it?
<flokli>
I'd rather see this happening than disabling mailing list mode
<ryantm>
gchristensen: Yeah, I have some secondary motivations for working on it I want to move the 4 Discourse instances I host at work to NixOS and it would give me more experience with that.
<ryantm>
It's not packaged for NixOS.
<flokli>
ryantm: there is a PR
<ryantm>
Well at least not integrated into Nixpkgs.
<flokli>
Which has been pretty active recently
<flokli>
And if we really don't want to host it by ourselves (which would be sad) well, then we just use some foundation funds to pay for it.
<ryantm>
Ah okay. If it is the PR I'm thinking of, I think it is going a bad route by trying to avoid using docker.
<ryantm>
My experience is that the Discourse people change stuff all the time, and not using Docker will probably involve tons of time keeping up with them.
<gchristensen>
agree
<flokli>
Well, we can also run it in docker, as long as we can describe it declaratively -ish
<ryantm>
Yeah, I was working on doing it that way for NLnet like a year ago, but I got distracted.
<ryantm>
Does the NixOS foundation already have an email delivery service?
<supersandro2000>
Is discourse enterprise grade software?
<supersandro2000>
if so we maybe don't want to burn our time on it and keep our longer lives
<ryantm>
I just made a backup of our Discourse and the backup is 249.6 MB
<supersandro2000>
thats not big tbh
<zimbatm[m]>
ryantm: the foundation has an AWS account. With SES it would cost ~$15.-/month sending out emails
<zimbatm[m]>
which is reasonable
<zimbatm[m]>
I guess another option would be for somebody to host a read-only mailing-list/NNTP, that would act as a mirror
<ryantm>
gchristensen: Were you agreeing with me or flokli or both?
<gchristensen>
agree about not trying to repackage it with nix, and using docker instead, but I'm still pretty solidly in the camp of let's find a way to pay even $300/mo for it instead of using volunteer time
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<flokli>
How much time do we spend with hydra builder maintenance
<flokli>
I mean, we probably don't use a hosted service there cause it'd be inappropriately expensive
<gchristensen>
not so much, they're pretty much automatically maintained
<gchristensen>
and "building all the stuff" is much more our core competency than "discussion forum host"
<gchristensen>
imho
<flokli>
I'm a bit sad we reach for hosted services for everything, and end up giving away of hackability.
<flokli>
I mean, hosting discourse seems to be not too complicated, if it's just a matter of getting a VM up somewhere, deploying some containers, and subscribing to their release announcement feed.
<gchristensen>
I understand, but don't find it personally bothersome if it lets us as a project focus on things more central to the project itself
<FRidh>
still its extra work, work someone has to be willing to do.
<supersandro2000>
we already lack reviews and commiters. Where do we find the person to maintain discourse?
<gchristensen>
s/to be willing// since it has to happen full stop
<supersandro2000>
*reviewers
<flokli>
Well, then there shouldn't be a discussion on asking people to disable ML Mode.
<gchristensen>
I think it is okay to have the discussion
<flokli>
The moment we signed up for a hosted discourse, it was clear we need to pay for it at some point.
<gchristensen>
hopefully we find an easy way to pay for it
<andi->
So we are a freemium plan of discourse? I always thought they are giving it away (as in the full product) for F/OSS projects.. If you plan on disabling the ML mode we might as well require a special fat client to interact with the discourse...
<ryantm>
It wasn't clear to me that we'd eventually have to pay for it.
<flokli>
gchristensen: I think the easy way would be "the foundation pays for it".
<gchristensen>
sure, and we may need to do some fundraising for it
<flokli>
We have sponsors, there should be a budget for it if we consider it important enough
<gchristensen>
I agree, that has been part of the discussion
<andi->
We can sell one of the macs for a year of discourse? ;-)
<gchristensen>
maybe you'd be interested in the logs from the topic from before you got here
<supersandro2000>
but is it important enough? thats the question
<flokli>
supersandro2000: I don't think the issue tracker is an appropriate discussion forum.
<flokli>
We once had a mailing list, and discourse replaced it
<flokli>
We shouldn't bait and switch.
<ryantm>
Oh, there has been a potentially relevant development since we switch to Discourse, GitHub released a somewhat competing discussion platform. https://docs.github.com/en/discussions/quickstart
<supersandro2000>
flokli: and github discussions are also not that great tbh
<gchristensen>
that would be an unfortunate step I think
<flokli>
ryantm: that'd even be more of a github lock in
<flokli>
I'm pretty happy the discussion platform doesn't require people to have a github account, and provides access to the database, so it can be self-hosted
<andi->
We've had users on discourse that are not on GitHub for various reasons. Keeping these separate is pretty reasonable for me.
<gchristensen>
lets us control the domain/urls + data
<gchristensen>
(thanks samueldr for that)
<ryantm>
I agree
<gchristensen>
I don't think it should be difficult to raise $300/mo from 75 people who like the feature, plus however many other people simply want to support the platform and ecosystem
<andi->
paying for vendor lock-in? LOL
<andi->
If we were to raise money for the machine hosting our discourse -> yes
<gchristensen>
vendor lock-in? discourse is open source, self-hostable, we control the domain and data.
<andi->
We jumped on the freemium model, got bitten by our growth and now we have to pay which wasn't entirely clear to begin with?!
<gchristensen>
yes and I think we would get more than $150-$300/mo of benefit of having someone else do the work
<ryantm>
Just to set the record straight, I was not involved with our switch to Discourse until after we switched, so maybe it was made clear that the freemium tier was limited to the people who made the switch.
<supersandro2000>
well we can go back to mailing lists and loose all younger people :)
<gchristensen>
it was clear to me that the free version of discourse for OSS had limits
<ryantm>
Are we able to quickly make the decision to pay $75/month for it? I think that would alleviate the problem at hand and give us more time to discuss it.
<gchristensen>
cc ikwildrpepper
<niksnut>
is it $75 or $300?
<niksnut>
if the former, I'd say do it
<niksnut>
but $300 per month sounds a bit steep to send a couple of emails
<gchristensen>
yeah, it is hard to say exactly -- some lack of clarity on if we get the OSS discount
<ryantm>
If I paste a screenshot into Matrix/Element will you guys see it?
<ryantm>
The Discourse guy seems confident that $75 per month would get us about 50% more emails.
<ryantm>
I don't really understand it, but I'm pretty sure it will at least immediately alleviate the problem.
<andi->
Is that 150k mails/month of year?
<ryantm>
Yes.
<gchristensen>
sounds like a decision then :)
<supersandro2000>
okay for that amount of mails it sounds reasonable
<ryantm>
Okay, so how to do we execute on it? I can ask the Discourse support guy to switch us over, but at some point someone will have to enter payment info.
<gchristensen>
ryantm: can you make a discourse member like the payment contact or something?
<ryantm>
I don't see anything like that. How about I try to kick off the process. Who do I contact when we need to pay?