<gchristensen>
infinisil: not immediately, as long as 12h, but I just finished a deploy
<worldofpeace>
(very likely rough around the edges)
<infinisil>
gchristensen: Cool, I'll update the checked maintainers PR in a day or so then :)
<worldofpeace>
gchristensen: yay you merged ofborg PRs 💓
<gchristensen>
speaking of which, if anyone wants to help manage ofborg: merge, issue deploys, debug prod, lmk :P
<cole-h>
worldofpeace: Do I smell something I can nitpick? 👀
<cole-h>
gchristensen: Maybe once I get more experienced with the codebase I'll hit you up ;^)
<worldofpeace>
cole-h: if you know anything about gnome in nixos. but it's a draft (the first), so nitpicking isn't that helpful that early
<infinisil>
jtojnar: I'm not sure removal of `with` is realistic
<gchristensen>
cool :)
<cole-h>
worldofpeace: Then I withdraw that statement. But let me know when it's ready for me to be a pedant and I'll do so >:)
<rnhmjoj>
wait, wait wat? the removal of `with`?
<rnhmjoj>
is the `with` syntax going to be removed from nix?
<gchristensen>
it isn't happening
<worldofpeace>
cole-h: pedants are most helpful to me. I will when it's ready
<cole-h>
You know where to find me
<infinisil>
rnhmjoj: This is the first time I've heard anything of the sorts too. `with` does cause weird issues with scoping, so I can see why some people would want to remove it, it's a bit of an anti-feature
<rnhmjoj>
gchristensen: is there a discussion somewhere? it's something so fundamental i can't even think why it would be removed and what could be used instead
<jtojnar>
infinisil well, it seemed like the public is mostly in favour of voluntary deprecation in the vein of rfcs#45
<infinisil>
Btw: `with pkgs; [ foo bar baz ] == attrValues { inherit (pkgs) foo bar baz; }`
<rnhmjoj>
gchristensen: yeah i guess why the performance of that it's not great. but as you said, it's very useful. it's something i sometimes want in other languages too
<Profpatsch>
GHC Haskell gets slower, too, if you don’t qualify your inputs btw
<Profpatsch>
(compilation that is)
<gchristensen>
rnhmjoj: I don't know/care so much about performance ,more about reasoning about what is happening :)
<Profpatsch>
Can be quite impressive with bigger project compile times from what I hear
<worldofpeace>
gchristensen: that was a quick deploy
<gchristensen>
worldofpeace: just gotta push 2 buttons :)
<Profpatsch>
rnhmjoj: I stopped using `with` everywhere when my Spacemacs got underlining of missing imports
<worldofpeace>
oh right, you showed that on office hours before
<infinisil>
Profpatsch: rnhmjoj: gchristensen: Let's go to #nix-lang for the `with` discussion
<infinisil>
jtojnar: ^
<Profpatsch>
I don’t think that discussion is going to go anywhere.
<Profpatsch>
But for a future nix language version, it’s something to keep in mind :)
<Profpatsch>
dhall recently introcuded `with`, and I was shocket at first, until I realized it’s a semantically completely different thing :)
<infinisil>
Profpatsch: -> #nix-lang ?
<Profpatsch>
infinisil: not joining yet another channel, sorry :)
<Profpatsch>
IRC channels are like *insert bad analogy here*, best to keep the list short
<gchristensen>
you can always leave them later :P
<Profpatsch>
Also, you miss half of the interesting stuff if people split discussions into 200 different channels. And since there are no logs, you can’t stitch them together after the fact if you are not in all of them by happenstance.
<gchristensen>
all the nix channels have pretty good log coverage
<gchristensen>
fwiw
<infinisil>
Profpatsch: It's just really distracting if there's hot discussions about completely different topics in the same channel (like just now). With separate channels you don't have that, and you can only "subscribe" to the ones that interest you
<infinisil>
Though actually, this discussion about IRC channels is for #nixos-chat :P
<drakonis>
did y'all actually have any meetings in this trying time?
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<Profpatsch>
infinisil: see, you’re already breaking under the load of all those different channels :)
<Profpatsch>
A great property of IRC is that it’s not problem to have multiple discussions at the same time.
<Profpatsch>
2 or 3 are usually no problem.
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<Profpatsch>
drakonis: you are assuming people here are leaving their homes *less* than they usually would :)
<infinisil>
Profpatsch: It is a problem though? There's no threading at all, it's just a big mess of people talking into each other
<Profpatsch>
like in a normal room, it’s great
<Profpatsch>
modern agora and shit
<samueldr>
no it's not
<samueldr>
it's something that people can get over
<samueldr>
but it's not great
<samueldr>
and it's not a feature of IRC
<samueldr>
it's people getting over it
<Irenes[m]>
hey, so I like the `services.nginx.virtualHosts.<name>.useACMEhost` feature, which tells nginx that there is an ACME service running that it should integrate with, but without actually taking on the work of hosting the challenge tokens.
<Irenes[m]>
I implemented an equivalent with HAProxy (it's basically just a couple systemd rules about when the unit restarts)
<Irenes[m]>
if I were to polish that up to upstream it, would there be any interest?
<Irenes[m]>
HAProxy is a load balancer, not a web server, but in some configurations it terminates TLS and uses certs in the same way a web server would
<Profpatsch>
samueldr: if you want structured, non ephemeral discussion, chat is not the right medium. If you want to have a space for open discussion, it’s perfect.
<nix-build>
nix#3468 (by Infinisil, 38 seconds ago, open): Make function arguments retain position info
<Irenes[m]>
I apologize, I'm interrupting
<samueldr>
Irenes[m]: sorry no, you're not
<samueldr>
**you** are more on topic
<Profpatsch>
heh
<samueldr>
I would continue over to #nixos-chat, but since not all the participants are there, I'm just stopping
<Irenes[m]>
I mean, IRC isn't my ideal but I like it anyway I guess? the problem it's solving is hard. but yeah.
<samueldr>
(and for the record, I like IRC)
<Profpatsch>
Irenes[m]: I’d ask on Discourse. Maybe ping some people that worked on the nginx stuff
<Irenes[m]>
yeah I actually know some of those people I guess. I didn't realize there was a Discourse -
<Irenes[m]>
(that emoticon connotes surprise and mixed emotions; it denotes an upside-down face intended to suggest the visual idiom of face-faulting in 1990s anime)
<Irenes[m]>
oh a Discourse not a Discord
<Irenes[m]>
sure, I can ask there
<Irenes[m]>
thanks
<drakonis>
Profpatsch: i mean, we have digital meetings these days
<Profpatsch>
Irenes[m]: yeah, I stumble on the similarity of those regularly.
<drakonis>
Irenes[m]: irene from lobsters?
<Irenes[m]>
yep!
<Irenes[m]>
it's kind of mind-boggling to think of that site as being a place that people know me from. I know it's very well-known now but I still think of it as small :)
<drakonis>
and you're running nix now
<drakonis>
to be fair, i've been there a bit before it started to really grow up
<Irenes[m]>
I've been running Nix for years, I think it's amazing tooling. I just was also taking a multi-year vacation from IRC.
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<drakonis>
migrate lobsters to nix some day yeah?
<Irenes[m]>
I'm not the sole stakeholder in that, but I'll keep it in mind for sure
<drakonis>
pushcx wanted to do it
<drakonis>
ish
<Irenes[m]>
haha
<Irenes[m]>
you can start this conversation over in #lobsters if you want haha
<drakonis>
investigating nix for usage but turns out the docs arent so good
<drakonis>
ha, we've already had it before
<Irenes[m]>
I'm currently in the process of trying to teach NixOS administration to a colleague who only knows traditional mutable-state distros. Depending on how that goes, I may be more interested in teaching it to other people, such as the other lobste.rs admins, in a few quarters. :)
<Irenes[m]>
thanks for asking
<drakonis>
perfect.
<drakonis>
thank you.
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<Profpatsch>
Good to have lobste.rs people in the boat, I’ve only heard good things of that community
<Profpatsch>
s/of/about/
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<Irenes[m]>
thank you. that's quite flattering.
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<jtojnar>
worldofpeace the GNOME docs look awesome. Should I convert them to docbook?
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<adisbladis>
FRidh: It's almost eery how many times I search for strange python issues and your name pops up (even outside of nix) :)
<worldofpeace>
Jan Tojnar: ooh, that's nice for a first draft. Sure. I haven't done this yet
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<FRidh>
adisbladis: yes, we tend to find them with nix :)
<FRidh>
on the brought side...given time they often get resolved
<FRidh>
I think this is also why it is so valuable that we often run the test suites of packages
<FRidh>
the feedback can really help improve the overall quality of the python ecosystem which I think we all agree can use it
<FRidh>
maybe also says its time for me to find another hobby :p
<andi->
I am having a weird issue when I run `nix build -L -f something.nix A B -o output` in a tight loop. Sometimes Nix thinks that A or B isn't of the correct type (attrset) and trips on itself: https://gist.github.com/andir/6e9bb947839c54e8cbba7d91a3b6d17c Any immediate ideas? Still trying to collect more details before opening an issue.
<puck>
andi-: does this happen with the GC turned off?
<andi->
puck: I haven't tried yet but that is on my list of candidates.. I can apparently make it go away by adding an intermediate nix file that just does `import other.nix`..
<puck>
another fun try is GC_ENABLE_INCREMENTAL, which might make it even worse, and is how another GC issue was found?
<andi->
That being said the v->type was a unusually large int when I inspected it earlier.. so maybe the GC did reclaim and reallocate it?
<puck>
yes
<puck>
that is exactly what happened. rr is very fun with this btw
<andi->
Yeah, a coworker suggested that.. I am reluctant to do that just yet but it might be the best time investment. :)
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<arianvp>
how does automatic modprobing work in NixOS? I see in stage-1 we set /proc/sys/kernel/modprobe to a nix-store path; and modprobe by default looks in /lib/modules
<arianvp>
and that is existent in stage-1 but not stage-2
<arianvp>
does that mean we cant dynamically modprobe modules after we're outside of stage-1? e.g. when udev tries to modprobe modules for new devices etc
<andi->
IIRC modprobe was patched to check /run/booted-system
<andi->
arianvp: yeah, look at pkgs/os-specific/linux/kmod/default.nix in nixpkgs
<andi->
line 7
<arianvp>
danke
<andi->
puck: disabling the GC does indeed seem like it fixed it. Next up: RR
<yorick>
I wanted to debug some of these gc issues but they stopped happening when I tried
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<gchristensen>
one of ofborg's macs just died
<gchristensen>
I'll have to look in to it
<gchristensen>
maybe I can open up the case and fix it somehow
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<enick_900>
I actually disabled gnome-software etc. after going "hm, guess there's no Nix backend" (maybe it doesn't work properly?)
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<matthewbauer>
emily: it used to work pre-Nix 2.0, but I haven't had time to update it
<infinisil>
Is there some convenience function for creating a new derivation that removes all files from another one that references a certain dependency?
<infinisil>
E.g. there's package A that depends on B, I want to create a C that looks like A, but removing all files that reference B
<infinisil>
(If this doesn't exist it probably should be created)
<domenkozar[m]>
remove all files that reference it_
<domenkozar[m]>
?
<gchristensen>
nukeReferences?
<infinisil>
# The program `nuke-refs' created by this derivation replaces all# references to the Nix store in the specified files by a non-existant# path (/nix/store/eeee...). This is useful for getting rid of# dependencies that you know are not actually needed at runtime.
<infinisil>
This just replaces the references with invalid ones, it doesn't remove the files themselves
<infinisil>
I'm thinking about `nfs-utils` here, which depends on python for 2 scripts (out of like 20)
<infinisil>
A minimal version without python support could be created by removing those script
<infinisil>
And ultimately, zfs depends on python partially because it uses nfs-utils
<infinisil>
But it only needs the ${zfs-utils}/bin/exportfs binary
<infinisil>
(which doesn't need python)
<infinisil>
Maybe we need to standardize having a separate output for each binary :P
<nix-build>
openzfs/zfs#405 (by torn5, 8 years ago, open): COW cp (--reflink) support
<Profpatsch>
whoa, TIL
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<Profpatsch>
So in a nutshell, ZFS does copy-on-write, but requires boatloads of RAM to do it online, but there’s no way to just do a hardlink when copying.
<Profpatsch>
well, I guess nix hardlinks anyway after the fact.
<Profpatsch>
But the time for copying is still spent
<tilpner>
Profpatsch: Where'd you get that from?
<Profpatsch>
tilpner: the linked issue
<gchristensen>
ZFS doesn't require a lot of ram to do copy on write
<tilpner>
Profpatsch: It can do CoW without lots of memory
<gchristensen>
you're thinking of dedup, which is different
<Profpatsch>
It still needs to hash if I read the issue correctly.
<gchristensen>
ZFS *is* a copy-on-write filesystem, there is no doubt or debate on that
<gchristensen>
being CoW does not imply reflink
<gchristensen>
and it does hashing on every write, yeah
<gchristensen>
that is how it works on a fundamental level -- everything is hashed
<tilpner>
There's no good reason to, but you *can* disable it
<gchristensen>
how?? how does it work at all if you disable hashing? its fundamental structure is a merkle tree
<tilpner>
I'm not familiar with the internals, so I might be entirely wrong. I was referring to checksum=off
<enick_900>
matthewbauer: thanks for the info -- it looks like it works enough for basic packagekit tasks (searching, installs) but fails on fancier stuff and doesn't work with Software, so maybe not worth enabling by default
<enick_900>
(though I still think it's kinda pointless to have a packagekit that can't do anything)
<gchristensen>
tilpner: ah, that is a read-time checksumming to see if you got the data you wrote :)
<enick_900>
gchristensen: yeesh, the github comments like "just make a new dataset and CoW that"
<tilpner>
gchristensen: Why does a read-time checksumming setting only apply to new data?
<gchristensen>
tilpner: well I guess it is also not writing a checksum bit too
<gchristensen>
but pretttty sure you can't disable hashing
<gchristensen>
yeah but how does the checksum interact with the hash-tree structure of how it stores data
<yegortimoshenko>
zfs is block-based, only metadata/file hierarchy is stored in merkle trees
<gchristensen>
oh I see
<gchristensen>
cool, thanks yegortimoshenko
<enick_900>
gchristensen: even the metadata pointers aren't just hashes, they're an underlying pointer + checksum, so it can just zero out the checksum part i think
<gchristensen>
cool
<enick_900>
the difference between "merkle tree" and "content-addressed store" basically
<infinisil>
Aw yeah, reduced the closure size of a system from 950M to 633M
<infinisil>
Let's see if it still works though..
<infinisil>
I did disable polkit and udisks2
<gchristensen>
anyone know why kresd changed to a template service, and why they're named kresd@1.service etc?
<gchristensen>
I'm not sure how I should know it is named @1 when I author a dependency on it
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<tilpner>
gchristensen: That's how it does parallelism
<tilpner>
gchristensen: You start multiple if you want kresd to use multiple cores
<tilpner>
See services.kresd.instances
<gchristensen>
I suppose then I should depend on kresd.target?
<andi->
They did ditch the systemd socket activation IIRC. It wasn't really working out for some of them.
<tilpner>
Probably
* tilpner
liked the socket activation
<andi->
Me too.. I am just now searching for the mail that I had that explained the move
<andi->
ahh was on gitter: pspacek | Yeah, the systemd socket magic was too complicated for normal use so we got rid of that in version 5.0.0.
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<infinisil>
Idea: Have a repository like nix-community/system-configs that contains versions of people's system configs. Every nixpkgs PR then gets checked against all configs, and if any of them fail with the changes, a comment is posted
<infinisil>
Or maybe rather a check
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<samueldr>
the amount of users patching software, thus needing a build to work makes this an expensive operation
<infinisil>
Hmm yeah..
<infinisil>
Maybe just a nix-instantiate then
<infinisil>
And some way for people to nix-build their systems with their own CI, submitting the results back
<gchristensen>
Rust does that with every crate published
<cole-h>
crater!
<samueldr>
note that I never said "impossible"! :) expensive!
<cole-h>
I don't suppose Packet wants to loan 100 more x2.larges...? ;) (or whatever the "big" one that was brought up last time)
<adisbladis>
Hm, I have a scary regression on my laptop
<adisbladis>
All home directories in /etc/passwd were set to /var/empty
<gchristensen>
frightful
<samueldr>
that'll get rid of state (sorry)
<adisbladis>
I didn't change any config, so I believe this is a nixpkgs regression
<gchristensen>
I believe you
<gchristensen>
yikes
<adisbladis>
Ok, it's my own stupidity
<adisbladis>
Nothing to be woried about
<adisbladis>
Phew
<gchristensen>
whathappened? :D
<adisbladis>
Note to self: Make sure your NIX_PATH is correct _before_ issuing nixos-rebuild
<adisbladis>
I was rebuilding for the wrong system :D
<adisbladis>
I thought I was going crazy
<gchristensen>
hah
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<samueldr>
are all builders on Hydra running the same nix revision?
<samueldr>
and are they running the same as the hydra evaluator, the one listed on the footer?
<gchristensen>
quite likely not running the same nix version
<samueldr>
hmmm
<samueldr>
the stack overflow issue stops me from testing with nixpkgs, but at the very least there seems to be a build time regression
<samueldr>
*in mobile-nixos
<samueldr>
I wouldn't discount mobile-nixos being in the wrong, it's possible, but that would be a breaking change then
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<samueldr>
hm, trying to build nixos with it to verify if it'll be an issue, getting "error: experimental Nix feature 'ca-references' is disabled"
<samueldr>
looks like there's something nixos must be doing, that mobile-nixos doesn't, as nixos builds... continuing the investigation
<gchristensen>
just in case -- if anyone has a spare macbook pro from any time after like 2012 that they could install nixos on to for me, it would help me with some, erm, availability issues, with ofborg's mac builder
<lovesegfault>
Is hydra able to eval master again?
<samueldr>
you tell us
<samueldr>
(yes it was)
<lovesegfault>
I wish you spoke portuguese, samueldr, I have the perfect thing to say
<lovesegfault>
We have a saying in Brazil that is like "If you who knows doesn't know, how am I who don't know going to know?!"
<lovesegfault>
("Se voce que sabe nao sabe como e que eu que nao sei vou saber?)