<infinisil>
Before learning Dvorak i thought that I may still be able to write Quertz after switching to it
<infinisil>
Turns out I can't, I unlearned Qwertz pretty fast
<fnlkj>
qwerty 4 lyfe
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<andi->
I am tempted to try dvorak.. same as with Emacs.. must dedicate some time and learn it..
<andi->
I fear that writing on other peoples computers might become even more awkward then
<MichaelRaskin>
andi-: as long as they are Linux computers, you can just setxkbmap to enable Dvorak in a completely transient way.
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<andi->
MichaelRaskin: yes, usually yes.. but some people are afraid of me changing their keymap and then disappearing :D
<MichaelRaskin>
That's why I mention a thing that is easy to do quietly, and that is reset after re-login
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<andi->
MichaelRaskin: yes, but even with users that do know setxkbmap I've encountered that
<andi->
it's mostly during pair-programming of some stuff
<MichaelRaskin>
If they do not know setxkbmap is transient, they do not actually know setxkbmap…
<andi->
they know it is transient
<andi->
thats not the point
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<adisbladis[m]>
andi-: Do learn dvorak before you tackle emacs
<andi->
adisbladis[m]: otherwise I need a new pair of hands before I am half way done with emacs? :D
<adisbladis[m]>
andi-: Emacs is very muscle-memory intense, makes it hard to change layouts
<andi->
ok
<MichaelRaskin>
Hehehe. Also, approximately any input completion system ends up being muscle-memory intense…
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<infinisil>
That's what makes it fast!
<MichaelRaskin>
That's what it makes the cost of relearning much higher without improving the payoff
<MichaelRaskin>
(I guess if your fingers/wrists/hands/arms get fatigued, then relearning to something less stressful could be a more convincing proposition, not sure if dvorak is)
<infinisil>
I am using dvorak
<infinisil>
But it's hard to actually say whether I'm faster
<infinisil>
But the key placement suits much better imo
<infinisil>
My hands still hurt though, but that's the fault of my shitty laptop keyboard
<MichaelRaskin>
Have you tried changing the relative height and maybe angle of your laptop relative to your body?
<infinisil>
MichaelRaskin: The problem is that the keyboard is such that the hands need to be tight together, which means they are turned outwards (so they're parallel to each other)
<infinisil>
And even if I could make it better somehow, most of the times I'm at university where I don't have any flexibility regarding the chair and table
<infinisil>
At home I have one of those split keyboard, such that left and right hand can be anywhere, which is much better
<MichaelRaskin>
Even without controlling the table, it is feasible to put something thick under the laptop (or possibly under the front side of it)
<infinisil>
And have it higher up? so the hands are also angled downwards?
<infinisil>
Not sure how that would improve anything
<MichaelRaskin>
Well, if the table is a bit lower, the choice is angled downwards or angled upwards, with the latter option much worse
<infinisil>
Hmm..
<MichaelRaskin>
Also,
<MichaelRaskin>
if the tables are deep enough (i.e. long enough from you forward), experimenting with distance could help
<MichaelRaskin>
(Also, if they are deep enough you might be able to find a keyboard that is cheap, backpackable and still better for your hands than a laptop keyboard)
<infinisil>
Eh, I've used my laptop in a lot of positions, but haven't ever found anything that makes it comfortable
<infinisil>
Yeah an external keyboard would be the best option for the laptop
* sphalerite
doesn't have any difficulty with his laptops at all really
<sphalerite>
Just concerned that I might regret my ergonomics choices later on :/
<infinisil>
It depends on the person, I seem to be unlucky in that regard
<MichaelRaskin>
The only time I was reliably uncomfortable typing was with hands angled upwards w.r.t. arms. Now I know to avoid that.
<MichaelRaskin>
That is actually horrible for me regardless of keyboard size
<MichaelRaskin>
On the other hand, 13.3'' to 15.6'' seems to be OK for me.
<infinisil>
I'd love something like the Ergodox EZ but much smaller to take with me
<infinisil>
MichaelRaskin: Laptop size?
<MichaelRaskin>
Yes.
<MichaelRaskin>
(of course, Lenovo puts a ~ 14'' keyboard on 15.6'' Thinkpads. But oh the battery. Bu the battery is _the only_ unambiguously good thing about it)
<MichaelRaskin>
ergodox doesn't look like something backpackable.
<infinisil>
Hmm.. The laptop I'll be buying is 15" (my current one is 13"), but it has a number block on the right so the keyboard is the exact same size.. :/
<MichaelRaskin>
On 15.6'' Asus number block is done right, which means that it can be fully remapped. Was very nice to use
<MichaelRaskin>
Lots of modifiers, full-size arrows, mmm
<infinisil>
Oh yeah I'll probably use it for that
<MichaelRaskin>
Obviously, when there is a long zero, it kills the layout of the most interesting part
<infinisil>
Maybe my hours and hours of reading xkb documentation could finally pay off!
<infinisil>
You can fully control the keyboard with xkb, everything
<MichaelRaskin>
Dunno really, I have a huge complicated layout horror, but it is just very basic setxkbmap and xmodmap
<MichaelRaskin>
Well, there are three layouts, of course.
<MichaelRaskin>
And a lot of Level3 on the first one (Latin)
<sphalerite>
infinisil: xkb has hours worth of documentation? :o
<infinisil>
sphalerite: Well, the protocol does, but the xkb file syntax does not, the only docs i found are guides from people online
<infinisil>
Which is a shame
<MichaelRaskin>
I dunno, I write only the most basic lines in the xkb files
<MichaelRaskin>
In xmodmap -pke commands, actually
<MichaelRaskin>
Yeah, maybe if I read documentation I could put something into the level3 for arrows…
<MichaelRaskin>
That could be nice.
* sphalerite
uses compose -> and compose <- to get → and ←
<infinisil>
Nice
<sphalerite>
those are defaul
<sphalerite>
I don't have anything (I know of) for up and dow nthough
<MichaelRaskin>
I don't use compose, I use dead_keys and level3
<gchristensen>
what is compose?
<samueldr>
oh, you don't have a compose key set up?
<sphalerite>
right shift + alt gr
<infinisil>
sphalerite: What do you mean by you don't have anything for up/down?
<samueldr>
mine is altgr(alt right)+right ctrl
<sphalerite>
infinisil: arrows pointing up and down
* infinisil
never used compose anything
<samueldr>
oh, look at that, compose + arrow keys (twice)
<sphalerite>
I haven't done any extra config for this
<samueldr>
↑↓←→
<gchristensen>
I've never heard of the compose key
<sphalerite>
samueldr: doesn't work for me, is that a custom thing?
<infinisil>
What layouts are you using for dat compose key?
<samueldr>
maybe
<MichaelRaskin>
You are in US!
<samueldr>
you don't need anything more than the basic ASCII
<samueldr>
:)
<samueldr>
I remember cargo-culting an Xcompose, let's see if I did
<infinisil>
Hah, I don't have a right alt on this keyboard :P
<infinisil>
(Well the firmware is compiled by me, i just didn't assign a key to that)
<samueldr>
"french (canada)" layout, the "legacy" one, which has a third-level modifier (alt+gr)
<sphalerite>
gchristensen: it's used to introduce multi-key sequences for single characters. Often quite intuitive ones, like compose " a ⇒ ä and compose = > ⇒ ⇒
<samueldr>
ah, and a default kind of non-fancy keyboard
<infinisil>
You can actually create a single keyboard layout that includes multiple ones, and designate keys or something to switch between them. Without even running an xkb command to switch
<sphalerite>
I have compose i d k set to produce a shruggie on my main laptop, but most software doesn't seem to like having more than one character coming from a compose sequence
<sphalerite>
works fine in st though
<infinisil>
I should include a Swiss layout at some point, it's always funny when somebody else tries to use my keyboard and realizing it's Dvorak :P
<MichaelRaskin>
Yeah, having Dvorak,Qwertz and Azerty as the three available options should work best
<MichaelRaskin>
Although maybe that requires an impact-protected laptop
<infinisil>
MichaelRaskin: Are you from France?
<MichaelRaskin>
No. I currently work in France, though.
<gchristensen>
seems my right Alt key is not AltGr, or I need to do some fancier setup for the compose key to work.
<MichaelRaskin>
I don't use AZERTY, of course, not even for French.
<sphalerite>
gchristensen: it's a bit picky about the order, you have to press right shift, press right alt, release both in either order, then type the characters you want to compoes
<infinisil>
That seems like a pain
<sphalerite>
actually you don't have to release both, you can hold the shift
<sphalerite>
eg press right shift, tap right alt, tap 2, tap a, release right shift, produces Ä for me
<sphalerite>
(I have a UK keyboard, where " and @ are swapped compared to a US one)
<gchristensen>
also maybe dvorak is messing it up
<sphalerite>
oh yeah probably
<sphalerite>
Anyway I need t osleep now. gnight all
<infinisil>
Ah gchristensen is a Dvorak user too :D
<infinisil>
sphalerite: night!
<MichaelRaskin>
Good night.
<infinisil>
gchristensen: Normal dvorak or programmer dvorak?
<gchristensen>
normal
<gchristensen>
see you, sphalerite
<MichaelRaskin>
There is no such thing as «normal Dvorak»
<infinisil>
programmer dvorak for me
<MichaelRaskin>
Maybe original dvorak…
<infinisil>
heh
<infinisil>
Well there is the standard dvorak you get with xkb
<infinisil>
There's actually 7 variations of dvorak in xkb..
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<gchristensen>
I had to set a key
<gchristensen>
neat
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