gchristensen changed the topic of #nixos-officehours to: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1UzI2SqEb8
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<aanderse> gchristensen: worldofpeace had a potentially interesting comment about a sprint to fix broken packages https://discourse.nixos.org/t/quality-control-for-packages/5618/3?u=aanderse
<aanderse> since a number of people watch office hours that might be a good place to mention and discuss
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<worldofpeace> aaron: thanks for reminding me of my good ideas ♥️
<aanderse> :)
<worldofpeace> Couldn't get in contact with FRidh so anything is on the table today :)
<gchristensen> <3 worldofpeace, <3 aanderse
<{^_^}> aanderse's karma got increased to 16
<gchristensen> <3 worldofpeace
<{^_^}> worldofpeace's karma got increased to 59
<gchristensen> fun syntax quirk
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<flokli> aren't office hours happening now?
<flokli> or did I screw up TZ again?
<flokli> ^ worldofpeace
<gchristensen> 1h from now
<flokli> okay, I did screw up
<flokli> hah
<samueldr> at least you're not missing it like aanderse is likely to... even though he's in the right timezone!
<samueldr> (was it aanderse that missed a couple like that?)
<flokli> 😱
<aanderse> yeah i joined late one time :(
<aanderse> in a meeting right now... trying to get it to end early :\
<gchristensen> aww
<gchristensen> you can come late :)
<samueldr> trying to end meetings early is always a fine goal
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<worldofpeace> Hey, NixOS Office Hours is starting in 14 min https://zoom.us/j/120295959, and more details https://github.com/worldofpeace/events/tree/master/office-hours
<pie_[bnc]> for extra convenience I found the youtube link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MvYcKOT9Nlk
gchristensen changed the topic of #nixos-officehours to: https://youtube.com/c/nixos-foundation
* gchristensen starts streaming, recording, checks blue/red swaps
<aanderse> yeah make sure you record because this meeting isn't ending T_T
<samueldr> (not sure youtube is streaming correctly)
<samueldr> something just faded in :)
<gchristensen> thanks samueldr
<gchristensen> I should probably make and print a to-do list for every day
<pie_[bnc]> sounds dead?
<pie_[bnc]> or is it justme
<pie_[bnc]> (no sound on youtube?)
<adisbladis> I feel like https://github.com/NixOS/rfcs/pull/46 is very relevant
<{^_^}> rfcs#46 (by 7c6f434c, 38 weeks ago, merged): [RFC 0046] Platform Support Tiers
<pie_[bnc]> I can hear worldofpeace
<gchristensen> aooaeoaeuaoeaoeuaoeu thatkn you pie_[bnc]
<pie_[bnc]> sooo...I guess youtube lost about 2-3 minutes? :P
<pie_[bnc]> might want to resummarize then?
<samueldr> mostly introductory words
<samueldr> otherwise "we're going to talk about the linked discourse post
<pie_[bnc]> I'd call it staging
<pie_[bnc]> or some form of that
<pie_[bnc]> its just a coincidence of using the wrong word to describe it initially :p
<pie_[bnc]> NUR isnt promoted oficially - or at least not visibly?
<pie_[bnc]> oh no maybe I should be on the call, I have things to say xD
<adisbladis> Imho: A nixpkgs attribute is a promise of me being able to build that package. A broken package is a broken promise and a failure in nixpkgs maintainership
<samueldr> (forgot to lower the hand)
<worldofpeace> adisbladis: yes
<pie_[bnc]> samueldr: even if expresisons are broken, what about expressions that partly contain some informatin that may have taken work to figure out for the pakcage
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<pie_[bnc]> bleh, dual-tasking :D (trying to listen too)
<pie_[bnc]> samueldr: did that make any sense?
<pie_[bnc]> worldofpeace: can we define / did we define "broken"?
<samueldr> pie_[bnc]: I hear the concern, and that's why I said "a chunk are going to be trivial"
<adisbladis> I wonder how it would turn out to require 100% of packages to build 100% of the time...
<worldofpeace> there was a note on that in the thread by timokau
<worldofpeace> ^ adisbladis
<samueldr> I think broken for a longer span of time means there is no interest in having it fixed, and longer span of time means that the "non-trivial fixes" may not even be relevant anymore
<adisbladis> samueldr: Yes!
<samueldr> adisbladis: 100% in a sliding window
<samueldr> keeping broken packages for a defined length of time, and dropping them once it's done
<adisbladis> I like this idea a lot.
<samueldr> because it may happen that branch-off day +1 something breaks in unstable, a user of that uses stable wouldn't see that breakage until the next stable release
<pie_[bnc]> worldofpeace: if there was _somewhere_ that was promoted as a location for less high quality packages, people might put them there instead?
<pie_[bnc]> worldofpeace: you mentioned AUR, I dont know how it works - but we dont have an "official" AUR, + curated set
<adisbladis> pie_[bnc]: We have NUR though
<samueldr> it's not even about lesser quality, but a repository of once-working husks
<worldofpeace> pie_[bnc]: nur is not curated
<pie_[bnc]> adisbladis: but its not really promoted
<adisbladis> [curation]: AUR is also not really curated?
<pie_[bnc]> flokli: I just dont want broken husks to be unfindable
<pie_[bnc]> flokli: I run some obscure software sometimes
<pie_[bnc]> flokli: if theres a half-packaged version I'm still better off than trying to redo it all myself?
<samueldr> next+1 (a full year) due to some bad luck in timing that could cut it short for some users
<flokli> pie_[bnc]: sure, but in that case, why keeping the half-broken thing in nxipkgs, if you don't use /that/ version?
<pie_[bnc]> flokli: im not against moving them somewhere else as long as they dont "disappear"
<flokli> in that case, removing it from nixpkgs, and moving it to your NUR migth be a better choice
<worldofpeace> samueldr: sounds good to me for that duration
<samueldr> maybe a project could index removed derivations
<worldofpeace> flokli: an alias to an nur attrbitue
<pie_[bnc]> nixpkgs is a massive expert system database
<worldofpeace> but flakes is probably a better hypothetical here
<samueldr> because it's never going to be diligently moved to an "archives" nixpkgs repo
<adisbladis> Auto-removal could mean dumped in an overlay repo
<pie_[bnc]> im not sure making packages little kingdoms would be good
<worldofpeace> pie_[bnc]: that's not what we're accepting
<pie_[bnc]> didnt think so, just sayin
<adisbladis> Nooo! Don't cram more stuff in the channels :/
<adisbladis> Channels are already too magical
<samueldr> was about to use something along that line
<gchristensen> hehe
<pie_[bnc]> doesnt necessarily need to be the specific channel mechanism
<samueldr> making channels even more magical than a simple checkout of the repo is dangeour
<samueldr> dangerous*
<samueldr> in groking the system :)
<adisbladis> General idea ++
<gchristensen> =)
<samueldr> same
<samueldr> as we spoke about channels last office hours, it's already confusing for some people
<pie_[bnc]> sidenote if we find a general way to attach additional metadata to nixpkgs i think that would be quite good
<pie_[bnc]> also relevant to metadata
<pie_[bnc]> self-plug for really sparse thread https://github.com/NixOS/nixpkgs/issues/57833
<{^_^}> #57833 (by deliciouslytyped, 44 weeks ago, open): Additional meta-information conventions
<samueldr> only ping direct maintainers and not dependents?
<samueldr> I think in ARM-land we'd like to have a low level team for u-boot and ATF
<gchristensen> +1
<samueldr> they're somewhat interconnected
<{^_^}> #72125 (by jtojnar, 12 weeks ago, open): lib: Add lib.maintainer-groups
<pie_[bnc]> consider that there are recurring groups of people that make changes ALL OVER nixpkgs
<samueldr> problem: we have packages missing maintainers
<pie_[bnc]> I feel like forcing people to accept maintainership to add a package isnt good
<adisbladis> pie_[bnc]: What's the alternative?
<pie_[bnc]> it might be good if you can get it to work as you want
<samueldr> I feel like adding a package without maintaining it is not good, that's how we get broken packages
<pie_[bnc]> th ealternative is not getting packages
<adisbladis> Imo not getting packages is better than broken ones
<pie_[bnc]> i presume one does not merge packages that dont build
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<pie_[bnc]> what tpflug is saying sounds kind of like the "descriptive vs prescriptive" thing and I'm incluned to agree
<gchristensen> say more?
<pie_[bnc]> ideally you can get both things to work together though
<gchristensen> oh I see what you mean.
<pie_[bnc]> people want to add something they spent time on so that others dont have to do it (well this is how I approach it), a goal could be to leverage that to get close to actually good and usable contributions<pie_[bnc]> I feel like forcing people to accept maintainership to add a package isnt good
<pie_[bnc]> the reason im so adamant about this is i feel like the stuff i would be posting if i actually made PRs wouldnt be up to par (or at least not up to my standards), but still several days of work, etc
<gchristensen> let's discuss further after this part of the call :)
<pie_[bnc]> sure, ill probably get distracted though, but feel free to poke me
<gchristensen> k
<gchristensen> ok* sounds good :)
<pie_[bnc]> you guys have a lot more sweng and nixpkgs contribution experience than I do, so I totally acknowledge your experience
<pie_[bnc]> I Have Opinions :p
<gchristensen> we likely have the classic "44 people and 45 opinions" situation :)
<pie_[bnc]> I just have inclinations to want monotonic even if slow progress forward :p
<pie_[bnc]> though one could argue pruning large heavy branches lets you go faster
<pie_[bnc]> but thats a "just-so" analogy
<adisbladis> I really want a cinnamon bun about now
<pie_[bnc]> oqo
<gchristensen> it is super fun for me to see worldofpeace exercise such deep expertise, my own reviewing skills are so much less
<samueldr> desktop is hard
<pie_[bnc]> nixos makes demos work! ;P
<worldofpeace> pie_[bnc]: don't sell yourself short
<pie_[bnc]> youtube just autoplatey https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2b9AqJimM-0 and I thought gchristensen left the stream open and accidentally put some music on
<pie_[bnc]> *autoplayed
<gchristensen> hah...
<gchristensen> I wonder if we can turn off auto-play at the channel level
<pie_[bnc]> nah just nixos-office-radio next time ;P
<samueldr> you can't even turn it off at a user level :(
<gchristensen> it might be possible under some sort of "brand safety" option thing
<gchristensen> "Recently YouTube has added a very annoying feature that is hurting my business. I'm a real estate agent that puts videos of listings on YouTube. But YouTube is automatically playing the COMPETITION'S videos after mine. Making the video totally useless to me. "
<kraem> thank you for the stream :)
<gchristensen> thank you for coming, kraem!
<pie_[bnc]> adisbladis: people talk about just y/n bad packages a lot but has there been serious discussion about a more staged model?
<pie_[bnc]> ofc. thats still more work
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<infinisil> Whoops I missed it
<gchristensen> we have mostly the whole thing on youtube!
<infinisil> :D
<gchristensen> I need to make a literal paper check-list.