gchristensen changed the topic of #nixos-officehours to: https://www.twitch.tv/grahamchristensen
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<aanderse> oh... friday
<aanderse> better start nix-shell'ing zoom-us now
<aanderse> only 3 more hours
<aanderse> -_-
<aanderse> lol
<gchristensen> lol
<aanderse> i need a new work laptop man :P
<samueldr> hmm, right, I should try it again on my main computer and see if I can fix the sound... the chromeos client is way too bad
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<zimbatm> anyone has a channel where zoom works?
<gchristensen> 19.03 at 56d94c8c69f
<zimbatm> gchristensen: what's the zoom ID?
<zimbatm> sorry for coming in late..
<samueldr> zimbatm: zoom.us/test
<samueldr> you can take the numbers from the url
<samueldr> it may be redirecting you to another page quickly, you can go back
<samueldr> that test channel will stay open for a couple minutes
<samueldr> oh oops
<samueldr> thought about a zoom room
<samueldr> disregard all I said
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<zimbatm> thanks, it's all working now
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<averell> no stream today?
<samueldr> yes stream
<zimbatm> gchristensen: can you paste the zoom ID?
<samueldr> like now
<samueldr> oh, sorry, youtube stream
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<samueldr> 120295959
<samueldr> zimbatm: ^
<edef> (whoops, should've considered this is recorded before showing my face)
<cransom> sounds fine to me on youtube stream.
<gchristensen> thank god lol
<averell> what is the url?
<{^_^}> rfcs#49 (by edolstra, 6 weeks ago, open): [RFC 0049] Flakes
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<edef> fwiw, the zoom black screen thing doesn't happen for me when i have a compositor enabled afaict
<cransom> though when eelco audio kicks in, it's not as zesty.
<samueldr> you are viewing 's screen... something tells me zoom forgot to handle a case https://stuff.samueldr.com/screenshots/2019/08/20190830150350.png
<hyperfekt> ah no twitch? gotta install zoom i guess...
<infinisil> Note that if you fetch the source with one of Nix's builtin fetchers like fetchTarball or fetchGit, no IFD is used
<qyliss> hyperfekt: there's youtube
<gchristensen> I can't remove eelco because his client crash :)
<edef> hm
<edef> i'm pretty sure i've pulled this off before
<flokli> is there a meetup in california? ;-)
<hyperfekt> qyliss: oh, it's live now? nice, thanks
<infinisil> Is that zimbatm talking?
<gchristensen> yeah
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<adisbladis> zimbatm: Should probably send that out on discourse too
<zimbatm> yeah good call
<cransom> interesting. the youtube feed has some weird reverb to it that doesn't exist in zoom.
<strelok7> reboot ?
<qyliss> I do!
<samueldr> cransom: I guess the youtube computer recorded both audios
<samueldr> or something like that
<worldofpeace> nose-myth-worm-dry
<{^_^}> #67709 (by vaibhavsagar, 1 day ago, open): Fixes for GHC 8.8.1
<qyliss> I have a PR I'd like to get advice on if we have a chance
<edef> gchristensen: are there criteria for PRs
<gchristensen> no :)
<infinisil> Nice, loving some 8.8 support
<edef> okay
<{^_^}> nixos-homepage#209 (by samueldr, 1 year ago, open): [big!] Adds a completely re-made packages listing (explorer).
<{^_^}> #59806 (by dtzWill, 19 weeks ago, open): openssh: 7.9p1 -> 8.0p1
<flokli> IIRC, there was a discussion on #nixos-security about the hpn support bits
<andi-> ^ gchristensen
<samueldr> the logs from this search are all related
<samueldr> (the search doesn't show all the context)
<qyliss> Oh yeah I remember that.
<qyliss> +1 to what gchristensen (I think?) said
<{^_^}> #61684 (by alyssais, 14 weeks ago, open): ruby: --disable-rubygems for baseruby
<gchristensen> qyliss: I have no idea how to pronounce your nick :x
<qyliss> k eye liss
<gchristensen> or also kailiss?
<qyliss> yeah
<gchristensen> cool
<gchristensen> qyliss: what should I say about it?
<qyliss> (I won't be joining the call, to be clear, but can describe my question here)
<johnny101m> pr209 sounds great.
<gchristensen> please do
<qyliss> As far as I can tell, there's no way to tell Nix to always put Bundler in PATH before Ruby -- it always sorts alphabetically
<qyliss> And I'd like to find a way around that, because if somebody starts a shell with Bundler and Ruby, Bundler's "bundler" executable should always take priority.
<infinisil> Hehehe
<qyliss> good pronunciation :)
<qyliss> gchristensen: I've described it above ^
<qyliss> It's not fundamentally a Ruby question
<qyliss> It sorts alphabetically by nix store hash, to be clear.
<samueldr> this may still be an issue with nix-shell -p ... ... ...
<averell> so we need to mine for a good bundler hash...
<qyliss> So it's not even consistent between nixpkgs releases
<samueldr> the nix-shell -p order will change the PATH
<samueldr> (IIRC)
<qyliss> gchristensen: renaming won't work ^
<gchristensen> I gotcha :)
<qyliss> samueldr: it won't.
<flokli> 🙈
<adisbladis> Should PATH be sorted by meta.priority?
<qyliss> I don't want it merged -- I'm looking for an answer to how to fix this
<qyliss> adisbladis's idea could work
<qyliss> hmmm
<samueldr> I wasn't sure whether "it won't" agreed with my observation or not; I also wasn't sure I was remembering right
<samueldr> clearly 00's style... 90s didn't have that kind of style
<qyliss> samueldr: gosh you're right
<qyliss> I was sure I'd tried that.
<flokli> samueldr: gchristensen: PR number of that?
<averell> this is pretty great. we need to steal the rust-book theme/font config stuff.
<flokli> ok
<qyliss> samueldr: doesn't work with nix run, though.
<qyliss> So maybe a PR to that wolud be in order
<edef> okay, pushed the https://github.com/NixOS/nixpkgs/pull/59806 rebase
<{^_^}> #59806 (by dtzWill, 19 weeks ago, open): openssh: 7.9p1 -> 8.0p1
<{^_^}> #67522 (by worldofpeace, 4 days ago, open): Harmonize Gnome3 Defaults
<{^_^}> #67529 (by worldofpeace, 3 days ago, open): nixos/fontconfig-penultimate: disable by default
<{^_^}> #67667 (by jtojnar, 1 day ago, open): nixos/fontconfig: Allow setting default emoji font
<edef> (and fixed indentation of the recent release notes additions in the process)
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<gchristensen> is there echo on the stream?
<qyliss> Can we change the topic to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQUm4V6tGaU ? The twitch one apparently doesn't work.
gchristensen changed the topic of #nixos-officehours to: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQUm4V6tGaU
<gchristensen> the topic is open, anyone can change it
<qyliss> oh, rad
<samueldr> I am running daily without penultimate since... over a year ago
<hyperfekt> gchristensen: slight, i think it's picking it up twice somehow
<samueldr> though I can't say what it looks like compared
<edef> hmm, do we have an issue for the hpn stuff
<gchristensen> how about now, hyperfekt?
<samueldr> tippy taps taps gchristensen :)
<gchristensen> whoops
<edef> i'd *like* to at least stick in the meta.broken = hpnSupport;
<infinisil> Oh the echo is gone now
<qyliss> edef: do it
<hyperfekt> gchristensen: perfect c:
<edef> i'm not quite sure what the take is on marking something as broken when it's still technically working
<gchristensen> yay
<qyliss> it wouldn't work on 8.x though, right?
<edef> it wouldn't, yeah
<qyliss> so just add that to the PR
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<edef> as of 7.9 we had a switch that pulled 7.8 for hpn mode
<adisbladis> edef: Sounds good to me. If anyone wants hpnSupport they can break it apart to separate derivation
<qyliss> edef: yeah we should ditch that
<averell> emoji workspace names? and here i've been using greek letters like a noob
<adisbladis> It's different sources anyway, I think a bool toggle to switch sources was always strange
<edef> yeah, it is kind of odd
<adisbladis> It's not what I'd expect just seeing the option
<qyliss> worldofpeace: can we add that default for programs.sway too?
<averell> haha, fruit. great.
<averell> what's on the poop workspace?
<edef> i'm somewhat concerned about just setting meta.broken
<aanderse> worldofpeace: so does this mean i'll be able to see emojis in my kde irc client finally?
<samueldr> averell: nothing particular
<qyliss> I think spacekookie was working on fixing the twemoji font so it's in colour, for anybody generally interested in emoji on NixOS
<adisbladis> edef: Why?
<samueldr> I was out of fruits
<edef> adisbladis: iirc meta.broken has some allowBroken mode or w/e
<edef> qyliss: oooh
<edef> qyliss: PR link?
<samueldr> aanderse: it doesn't seem to work on Quassel, _with my config_
<qyliss> Don't think she has one yet.
<samueldr> aanderse: it may be my half-working-half-broken config that's not right though
<edef> adisbladis: generally we expect meta.broken to mean "doesn't build"
<qyliss> edef: add an assert instead?
<spacekookie> My last status was repeatedly rebuilding the fedora package for insights. But then a camp happened and I was super busy
<samueldr> we have a meta for security
<qyliss> assert hpnSupport -> throw
<edef> so that would break hydra
<samueldr> look into the older webkit for gtk
<edef> i think
<qyliss> Not if it's default false?
<edef> there's an openssh_hpn
<aanderse> samueldr: hmm thats weird, i would have thought it to be a widget thing, not an app thing
<qyliss> oh
<edef> so we're in a bit of a pickle here
<samueldr> aanderse: I haven't seen a Qt app working with it, but I'm not using many Qt apps
<adisbladis> Oh there _is_ already a separate derivation
<qyliss> we could either pull that out to a seperate function, or move it to aliases.nix and throw.
<edef> i don't want to return a package that builds to something unexpected if you ignore meta.broken
<aanderse> samueldr: well that is a shame if it doesn't work for some qt apps :(
<qyliss> We already mark packages as broken in that sense through aliases.nix.
<adisbladis> edef: Then imho drop the hpnSupport flag entirely (or throw) and refer to openssh_hpn in the changelog
<samueldr> aanderse: that's certainly fixable
<edef> hmm, okay
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<samueldr> oops
<edef> i think i would like to at least get dtzWill's PR merged first
<qyliss> Is OpenSSH whatever old version still supported upstream?
<edef> and do this in a followup
<edef> 7.8? probably, but the hpn patches are not supported upstream
<edef> and hpn development does not seem super alive
<edef> it's mostly relevant to HPC folk
<qyliss> I really think we should just kill it.
<adisbladis> qyliss: Iirc openssh only supports latest release (dont take my word for it though)
<qyliss> Doubly so if 7.8 isn't supported upstream.
<averell> 0 open PRs just around the corner :)
<qyliss> The dashboard would be awesome.
<adisbladis> nixcon: You can enter submissions until 2019-09-10 16:20 (UTC)
<edef> oof, hm
<adisbladis> edef: Too short time?
<infinisil> How many people were in the zoom call?
<adisbladis> infinisil: I think it said 28 ?
<infinisil> Ah didn't notice
<qyliss> I think I'm going to have to stop coming to the office hours. I've tried several times to participate, but it clearly just isn't feasible without using proprietary spyware.
<edef> adisbladis: idk, i was consiiiidering whether i could maybe magick something up but i'm not sure
<infinisil> qyliss: I'd also like to participate but that's turning me down as well..
<adisbladis> edef: If you'd like to submit something but feel you don't have time you could talk to me (or #nixcon) and we could probably work something out
<edef> mm, still in the "would have to make something up to talk about" phase i think
<adisbladis> edef: Either way, dont hesitate to ask, even if the submission is closed :)
<qyliss> please do let me know if the situation changes, but for now, watching a live conversation I can't participate in without feeling like I'm derailing because of lag and trying to get people to relay what I'm saying second-hand is just making me frustrated and sad.
<edef> i'll see where i'm at midweek
<edef> qyliss: i'm considering just trying to bridge audio/video on a dedicated box
<adisbladis> Worst thing that can happen is that we'll say no
<qyliss> edef: I'd be concerned about lag, etc, which could make people participating that way still second class.
<edef> i'm still a little miffed about the quality of my talk preparation last nixcon
<edef> qyliss: fair
<edef> next office hours are 2019-09-20T19:00Z?
<qyliss> gchristensen worldofpeace: is this something you have any interest in doing something about (I'd be happy to help!), or should I just give up for now?
<edef> very curious about using jitsi or sth
<qyliss> I wonder how many people it affects beyond me and infinisil. That's two of the 31 people who're in this channel anyway...
<adisbladis> qyliss: I talked to gchristensen about this a bit before
<gchristensen> qyliss: worldofpeace and I are doing a debrief call, back shortly :)
<edef> i prefer not using zoom but have to use it for work
<adisbladis> It's mostly practical, we need to find something that can be stable for ~30 ppl
<edef> in terms of video/audio itself working nothing else has really matched it
<edef> i've used appear.in a lot to positive effect
<samueldr> I would greatly prefer an open source software solution
<aanderse> qyliss: i don't use video conferencing software often, are you familiar with other solutions?
<adisbladis> I think everyone would :)
<qyliss> I use jitsi regularly, although not with groups that size
<adisbladis> Btw, zoom also has a little-advertised browser client
<edef> oh, fascinating
<qyliss> adisbladis: still not free, still bound by their horrible EULA
<qyliss> But when there are only five people doing all the talking, couldn't everybody else just watch the stream and join when needed?
<zimbatm> any solutions available?
<samueldr> one important thing to consider is how the conferencing thing acts with multi-continent participants
<adisbladis> Btw zoom was horrible last time I tried it in asia
<qyliss> I think audio-only (except for screen-sharing occassionally) would be fine too, which should help with performance if that is indeed an issue.
<samueldr> that's something to consider
<edef> video is nice in terms of like, primate social cohesion basically
<qyliss> I think there are lots of things we could try here and I just feel like they haven't been given due consideration, in favour of something that's easy for some people but contravenes the ethical principles behind NixOS (which I was reminded of in this call reading Eelco's comments on NixOS as a free software distribution re the website PR)
<edef> i'm a little reluctant to turn on video if it's going on the Permanent Record, and mistakenly turned my video on for a moment before realising that i'd be exposing my face to the internet long-term
<aanderse> edef: yeah, i have no issues with video chat... except when it is recorded and posted on permanent record
<edef> but it's nice to see people's faces when i don't really see other nixosfolk *that* often
<samueldr> one thing to remember is that this is still being conceived, the office hours is basically still a new thing
<infinisil> qyliss: I'd like to give https://github.com/RocketChat/Rocket.Chat a try, which seems pretty promising
<infinisil> And can be self-hosted
<infinisil> And is free
<edef> rocket is mostly trying to be a slack clone, i've not used the audio/video if that's in there
<samueldr> if, in addition to figuring out the format, and figuring how to "do the hours", there are technical issues on all sides, it'll be a bit harder to get going
<edef> (CCC orga uses it)
<infinisil> edef: Yeah they apparently have video conferencing
<qyliss> there are technical issues with zoom too, as we've seen every time we've done this so far.
<edef> samueldr: err
<adisbladis> CCC orga using something is usually a good sign :)
<zimbatm> does anyone want to package http://sylkserver.com/ ?
<qyliss> zimbatm: wasn't NLnet paying somebody for that?
<samueldr> though I think it's planned to, in the future, be mindful of the tech stack behind, once the thing "is going"
<edef> samueldr: if we pick something not everyone can use and say it's okay because that's not a "technical issue", i'm not sure what we're trying to achieve
<averell> nextcloud has a video-chat thing. not sure if that scales though.
<qyliss> edef++
<{^_^}> edef's karma got increased to 4
<zimbatm> qyliss: NLnet is funding the packaging, and you can be paid to do it
<adisbladis> zimbatm: Oh wow, they're using darcs
<adisbladis> Retro
<samueldr> edef: I think that the organizer was pragmatically used to zoom.us
<edef> i understand that
<edef> i use zoom for work
<qyliss> zimbatm: I know somebody who might be interested
<edef> it's probably what many of us use at work
<zimbatm> qyliss: ok, we need more packagers
<qyliss> I'm not trying to put down gchristensen or worldofpeace's hard work in organizing these at all
<edef> and i'm not going to contest that it is "pragmatic", but it is so in the same way that using windows is
<qyliss> But I feel like "everybody can participate" should be the baseline here.
<adisbladis> qyliss++
<{^_^}> qyliss's karma got increased to 5
<samueldr> I think that if people take time to work on the tech stack behind and test things out, and prepare something, and that it works, it will be considered, though I can't talk for other people; just going on from the initial talks before the first one
<qyliss> Even if the exprience isn't quite as good or whatever
<edef> and yeah, i'd like to emphasise that i'm super happy gchristensen and worldofpeace are putting in the work here
<zimbatm> the idea was to get this started
<edef> we've got a little more than two weeks to come up with a proposal for the next time, maybe test run it with some volunteers, or over a month if we want to leave the next one with this tech stack
<infinisil> zimbatm: That sylkserver thing sounds pretty nice
<edef> my complaint is not that it is bad that we got this started already
<qyliss> I tried to use sylkserver to talk to NLnet fwiw and it just didn't work at all
<aanderse> infinisil: yeah i just looked at the rocket chat site, looks pretty neat
<qyliss> We ended up doing an international cell phone call
<zimbatm> qyliss: there is no opposition to switch tools, we just need to find one that's both working and OSS
<infinisil> Or create our own!
<edef> i'm deeply enthusiastic about this event itself, and i was reluctant about joining last time due to zoom, and felt unhappy to join when qyliss couldn't both times
<gchristensen> okay
<gchristensen> so
<gchristensen> zoom
<aanderse> gchristensen: we all love you!
<aanderse> hehe
<qyliss> gchristensen??
<edef> aanderse++
<{^_^}> aanderse's karma got increased to 13
<qyliss> gchristensen++
<{^_^}> gchristensen's karma got increased to 147
<worldofpeace> edef: thanks edef. It's a lot too put together. Taking things slowly and using what can work for us so we can manifest this interaction
<edef> just to verify, next time is 2019-09-20T19:00Z?
<gchristensen> correct! 3 weeks from today
<gchristensen> on the point about technical issues each time: with the exception of the screen sharing problem today, none of the technical problems from any of the prior weeks had anything to do with Zoom
<averell> more than enough time to build a complete video chat application...
<qyliss> Didn't it fail to record several times?
<aanderse> i suddenly feel remiss in not saying worldofpeace: we all love you too :)
<gchristensen> each one of those problems were problems with me not knowing how to be a l33t streamer
<adisbladis> worldofpeace++ :)
<{^_^}> worldofpeace's karma got increased to 32
<qyliss> I feel like "we just had to get this started" is the same as if all the mayflower people had got together in their office, had a conversation between themselves, and published it. It makes things easy, sure, but how does that feel for the rest of the community who can't participate that way?
<edef> mm
<gchristensen> I do appreciate that people don't like Zoom, and would really prefer something OSS. I would too. However, at the same time, I do a _lot_ of video calls for work, and while it may seem like I'm just not interested in trying options, the truth is I've tried dozens of them
<qyliss> It makes me feel really unappreciated and unvalued as a community member, that it's okay for me not to be able to participate so that other people can have a better experience
<gchristensen> and Zoom is the one that works most reliabl y for me
<worldofpeace> My main goal is to remove any bars to interaction we can. That being said, moving there's some set in front of us already.
<edef> mm
<edef> i think that, in extremis, it is okay to have a flakier tool if it excludes fewer people
<gchristensen> so I am truly, truly sorry that Zoom is not something you feel comfortable using. at the same time, for the foreseeable future, I'm planning on continuing to use Zoom
<edef> hm.
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<edef> i think that puts some community values in question
<gchristensen> that is a hard question to ask and answer, for sure
<edef> and in retrospect i'm somewhat displeased to have joined the zoom meeting and thus by my presence given political cover to the acceptability of needing to do that
<gchristensen> I'm sorry to hear that :(
<adisbladis> edef: I have had the exact same thoughts...
* infinisil is looking into packaging rocket.chat
<edef> i'm not interested in tearing down the initiative here, i deeply appreciate that running the meetings is something both of you are picking up
<zimbatm> would it be better for nixos-officehours not to exist at all?
<gchristensen> I definitely appreciate and value your perspective, edef
<edef> it would not, that is my point
<gchristensen> (and qyliss's too)
<edef> i am spending a lot of words making very clear that i would rather have them exist
<edef> but precisely because i value that initiative i'd like to make sure we can all participate
<edef> because if we are adding a venue that is inaccessible, then yes, there is a cost to that over not adding the venue at all
<zimbatm> I don't think anyone here is advocating that we *must* use properietary software
<edef> no, i understand
<gchristensen> it may be possible to tweak youtube's streaming settings to reduce the lag from zoom-to-youtube
<zimbatm> then let's focus on finding solutions instead
<edef> yes, please
<gchristensen> I really, really do truly appreciate the perspective on FOSS and the fact that Zoom is not that
<adisbladis> gchristensen: That would only be one-way though?
<zimbatm> get the rage out :D
<adisbladis> Which would make FOSS-users second class citizens :/
<gchristensen> I am willing to experiment with different software
<infinisil> I'll ping some people here if I get rocket.chat working so we could try it out
<edef> "for the foreseeable future, I'm planning on continuing to use Zoom" parsed as a sentiment almost entirely opposite to "I am willing to experiment with different software" / "let's focus on finding solutions"
<gchristensen> I am currently planning on continuing to use Zoom
<edef> okay, that parses very differently. is that what you meant to say?
<gchristensen> sure
<gchristensen> yes
<edef> ACK.
<adisbladis> Human language /o\
<gchristensen> Slack, Google Meet/Hangouts, Appear In, Jitsi, Bluejeans, and Join.me have not been usable so far even on small meetings
<edef> i've had issues with jitsi for sure, yeah
<edef> i've ended up switching back to appear every time i tried using it so far
<gchristensen> and scaling up any of those experiences to an international call with 30 participants is a video call I'm not interested in doing
<edef> appear has two modes, a big room and a small room mode. the latter is purely P2P, the former goes through their servers i think
<gchristensen> if there are alternatives and things to try, let's try
<gchristensen> WOW!
<edef> i think we probably want to focus on tools that take the "all stream to one server, one server streams to all" approach, given our scale here
<zimbatm> the beauty :)
<adisbladis> zimbatm: :O
<adisbladis> That's sexy.
<edef> zimbatm: nice, good stuff
<samueldr> ever thought about the different fire bins? https://nixos.org/nixos/packages.html?channel=nixos-19.03&query=%5Efire.%2Abin%24
<zimbatm> samueldr: ++
<edef> the permalinks are super sweet
<zimbatm> samueldr++
<{^_^}> samueldr's karma got increased to 111
<worldofpeace> I''ll be available fully while graham is on vacation. I'm willing to work together to a solution. The call in its current establishment is in zoom, and it was that way for the sake of the call to initially appear. Thoughts here seem to be proactive which is pretty much the viewpoint of our community so I think we can reach a resolve.
<edef> can we gather the proposed options, and what we've ruled out already perhaps?
<edef> i'm okay with just firing up an etherpad or something on that front
<edef> rocketchat seems to be the thing we're gunning for right now, we've got a few upfront rejections (slack, google hangouts/meet, appear, jitsi, bluejeans, join, anything else?)
<adisbladis> edef: sylk was also an option
<edef> i'm a little reluctant about setting up a rocketchat fragmenting our chat further, we've already got like a dozen #nixos-* IRC channels
<gchristensen> definitely +100%
<edef> mm, so rocketchat and sylk
<worldofpeace> An etherpad would help.
<zimbatm> sylk has a bridge to IRC
<zimbatm> I think what we will find out is that for video, you actually need to build, maintain and fine-tune the infrastructure quite a lot.
<zimbatm> have engineers that understand network jitters and buffer tuning and whatnot
<mgdm> zimbatm++
<{^_^}> zimbatm's karma got increased to 10
<edef> i think we can probably figure something out infrastructure wise
<edef> i'm happy to help with network things
<samueldr> I can make myself available to geographically diversify the tests
<worldofpeace> Great, if you can add your names to the document edef has so I can know who's interested in helping and what they're willing to do or propose.
<zimbatm> and please, if you end up packaging sylkserver, ping me
<zimbatm> and count how many hours it took
<averell> where are the bodies buried? or is it just that nobody tried?
<gchristensen> I'm sorry I can't tell people to use sylk
<gchristensen> it feels like too personal of a decision
<edef> oh?
<gchristensen> google sylk
<gchristensen> or DDG it
<edef> lol
<edef> there, amended it to say SylkServer
<zimbatm> it's a good starting point. It has the package and nixos module
<zimbatm> the hard part is to actually configure and test the software
<worldofpeace> I'd say all proposals to change what we use needs to go through to the hosts with approval. Personally and I know gchristensen shares this sentiment, for sustainability we have to continually enjoy the process to feed its continued appearance.
<worldofpeace> infinisil: how were you available to help?
<edef> that's fair, i think we're mostly gathering options for you to evaluate here
<edef> like, i don't want to come to you and gchristensen with "here's this random thing i found five minutes ago, please expend time and effort on it"
<infinisil> worldofpeace: Huh?
<gchristensen> <3 edef thank you
<{^_^}> edef's karma got increased to 5
<edef> i'd rather be "hey, here's something we've tested and we think it's worth a moment of your time to figure out if you agree with our assessment"
<gchristensen> very on board with that
<edef> so goal being to bring you fairly finished proposals rather than stuff you have to vet from scratch
<worldofpeace> True, we've already spend a lot of time to have what there's already.
<edef> yeah, precisely
<edef> want to respect your time investment here, not add further technical burden to the community function
<worldofpeace> infinisil: we convered that if we'd like to change the platform it needs to be done in an organized manner and we need the help of those interested. See https://pad.riseup.net/p/nixos-videochat-keep
<edef> stuff we deliver should probably be usable from nixos-unstable or at most nixos master, and i'd be happy to help provide server infrastructure
<infinisil> Ah
<worldofpeace> Right edef, I'm glad you understand that. The technical burden so far has been a lot for gchristensen, so if he's hesitant to doing something like this quickly that's the reason.
<gchristensen> the ideal scenario will have multiple PoPs -- one near NYC and one in EU somewhere
<edef> gchristensen: yeah, i can offer that
<gchristensen> oh yeah
<gchristensen> have any near the berkshires? :)
<edef> like, i run anycast infra on packet's main DCs
<gchristensen> drool.gif
<edef> i think EWR is the closest i can offer on that front
<edef> but i think you'll be alright with that
<gchristensen> you can get closer
<gchristensen> BOS2 :)
<edef> they don't control routing to the same degree in the "edge location" spots
<worldofpeace> infinisil: good to see you're trying things.
<gchristensen> aye
<edef> i can't anycast our ranges from there, i'd have to check what their routing looks like there. we've had some talks with their folk about this
<samueldr> annoying thing: it can't be IPv6 only, just pre-empting a possible issue
<samueldr> a couple telcos in Canada simply can't serve IPv6 because the telcos leasing the lines don't allow them :(
<gchristensen> oh yeah I don't even have working ipv6
<samueldr> (telcos subletting would be the better phrasing?)
<edef> samueldr: yeah, was considering that
<samueldr> great
<infinisil> I'm waiting for the rust community to build a super performant GTK video conference tool :D
<infinisil> It's only a matter of time
<mgdm> and then the Qt community to build one of their own... :D
<edef> packet's backhaul is fairly solid across AMS->EWR, the RTT delta is something like 70ms which is pretty solid
<infinisil> Hmmm.. just found https://www.gnugk.org/
<infinisil> That looks actually pretty promising, although it's a bit confusing as to what it really is and what it's not
<edef> hmm, that seems to have a lot of bells and whistles, not all of which i understand right off the bat
<edef> we gotta have a clear story for what the serverside setup is, what the client setup is
<edef> so far we've been covering things where those are a package deal
<infinisil> It seems like that gnugk implements a protocol for calls, so I'd kind of think people might be free to choose any client that implements it
<edef> hey
<edef> qyliss and i are test-driving bigbluebutton, which is intended for education
<edef> samueldr: you're on another continent from qyliss and i, so we could use you
<edef> https://demo.bigbluebutton.org/gl/ede-7zw-zqr for those interested in helping us give this a shot
<edef> we're hopeful that something targeted at education will support larger groups more readily
<samueldr> (I'm still listening)
<edef> cool!
<samueldr> nope, no account needed
<edef> going strong with five connected clients so far
<edef> infinisil: any chance you'd want to help test-driving this?
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<qyliss> looking promising
<qyliss> we agreed that I'll package the software and edef will set up some hosting, then we'll iterate on it a bit and have something to show in a couple of weeks
<edef> "the software" being bigbluebutton here, mentioned above
<edef> i'm not intending to take other options out of the running here, alternate proposals are welcome
<edef> the etherpad remains open for suggestions, but we do need people to actually be willing to put packaging/testing effort behind their proposals
<edef> i'm waiting for gchristensen to get back, worldofpeace/gchristensen and i have been discussing a little behind the scenes
<worldofpeace> Doesn't riot lack large group calls / ref https://pad.riseup.net/p/nixos-videochat-keep
<edef> sounds plausible
<edef> i've not had a good time with it in the past, it needs some config on the homeserver's part
<worldofpeace> I think it was already discussed that it wasn't going too be a good fit, think because it was lacking features
<worldofpeace> (I think gchristensen might have some rather strong reservations about it)
<edef> ack
<edef> worldofpeace: is it okay if we use here as coordination for the tech bits?
<edef> worldofpeace: like, i could split off into another channel but that seems kind of pointless
<edef> we've done a test with uhh, half a dozen clients or something on bigbluebutton's demo server now
<edef> the recordings don't seem to come out yet, that could just be a misconfiguration on the demo server
<worldofpeace> I'm pretty sure the office-hours channel should explicitly be for the participants asking questions. But tbh much has already happened in it already so it's fine if those bits happen here. looking forward those bits should happen in a group/something that's just accesible to us
<edef> mm, i'm a little wary of closing things off
<qyliss> There are definitely parts of this discussion that would have gone better in private.
<edef> that is fair
<qyliss> (and that's my fault for starting it here)
<edef> but coming to technical decisions that impact us down the line and having to say "well, that was discussed in private" when anyone asks how those came to be is a little iffy
<qyliss> that is true
<edef> i enjoyed the discussion that happened in our test call but at the same time i'm very conscious that none of that is ending up in the public record, or any record beyond our wetware for that matter
<worldofpeace> perhaps that information could have been useful to me? (in the test)
<qyliss> We pretty much just discussed what experiences we were having with the software and what we would do next
<qyliss> I relayed the latter above.
<edef> yeah
<worldofpeace> actually private would be better.
<edef> it was mostly like, what features of this thing work well right now, what do i want to deliver to gchristensen/worldofpeace, what things can i parcel out to qyliss/puck, how is this software structured
<worldofpeace> I'm not familiar with puck. Care to introduce?
<edef> oh welp she's not in here specifically
<qyliss> we were trying to rope in anybody we could to test how it scales :D
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<edef> puck occasionally contributes to NixOS, has some amount of relevant telephony etc knowledge, works closely with me on a bunch of stuff
<worldofpeace> Ok, cool. I'll move to any preferred channel for continued discussion btw. Those interested should are free to be invited
<edef> qyliss offered to have a shot at packaging bigbluebutton, we're fairly excited about having a test instance of this, i'm def not ruling out other options
<edef> puck has looked at the internals of BBB (it's basically a WebRTC gateway for FreePBX under the hood, with a bunch of UI, which inspires a lot of confidence on my part), and offered to put in some of the legwork for adapting it to our needs
<worldofpeace> ahhh what, that's cool ✨️
<edef> we can do #nixos-officesupplies i guess
<edef> (intended as a bit of a play on the needs of actual physical offices)
<edef> i'm not quite sure how to get that hooked up to the logger
<worldofpeace> Ay, Dios Mío. That's a great play on words edef :)
<edef> i've def got some amount of anxiety around being "on air" all the time but i feel that transparency here matters, so soft vote in favour of having it logged
<worldofpeace> What channel are we talking about here? I think the current channel should be logged (is it not?) because it's public source of questions. And direct messages etc. should be possible anywhere anyway.
<edef> #nixos-officesupplies is an actual channel that exists as of a few moments before i mentioned it here