<shlevy>
MichaelRaskin: Can you give an example of how such an override would work in your system?
<shlevy>
gchristensen: Probably
<gchristensen>
anyone want to sponsor an article about Nix or NixOS for $200?
<shlevy>
MichaelRaskin: I don't think there is one single goal yet. There are a bunch of interrelated goals, and different people with different proposals will have different priorities among them, and then we have to figure out how to decide between them if they meaningfully conflict
<shlevy>
MichaelRaskin: Which is why I want to see your ideas. The more high quality input we get now, the better chance we have of hitting on a good solution. Earlier the community was different and it was too soon to make drastic changes to the language, later will be too late.
<shlevy>
gchristensen: That's a bit general and high :D
<MichaelRaskin>
shlevy: when I had a specific approach, it was with builderDefs
<MichaelRaskin>
Which were criticised (fairly) for implementation, but also it turned out that the goals were also considered not-even-desirable.
<MichaelRaskin>
I dunno, if we have a goal-dump issue with a vague enough topic, I might try to separate the possible goals I have tried pursuing over time (or considered pursuing, or regretted not having energy to pursue, or expected others to pursue without liking the idea myself)
<MichaelRaskin>
Maybe you could also convince wkennington and codyopel to write sometihng.
<MichaelRaskin>
If oxij states his goals cleanly, I can probably argue both for and against USE-flags…
<MichaelRaskin>
(I mean, in a useful/harmful discussion of goals I am not obligated to care if my goals I compatible, I can first see if some of them will not get support in any case)
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<globin>
we
<globin>
whoops ignre me
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<genesis>
was wondering, on gentoo, we can elog at end of an install to warn people what they need to do
<genesis>
i'm finishing to write a derivation , and first time call, we have to be in the share/directory of this project to have clean ~/.config files with good path
<genesis>
can we introduce something in meta, "notes"
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<MichaelRaskin>
Cannot a wrapper just prepare this?
<genesis>
a wrapper could perharps, but sometime it's more than that, a notice in the meta would be not so bad
<genesis>
could add some note about migration, etc
<MichaelRaskin>
How to track who gets to see the notice, though?
<gchristensen>
genesis: why doese it have to do that?
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<MichaelRaskin>
genesis: well, do you get all notes on every rebuild? What happens with nix-shell?
<genesis>
i think something like longdesc, you get it when you need
<gchristensen>
like you have to ask for it?
<genesis>
just try to think a good container to record pkg_postinst info
<genesis>
yes
<genesis>
but perharps i'm wrong, but sometime a derivation could have some limitations, some extra step to make to get it works
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<shlevy>
genesis: MichaelRaskin: I think we could have some metadata that both nix-env and nixos-rebuild know about
<gchristensen>
metadata attached to enabled services and packages in systemPackages for NixOS seems likeed it'd be thorough enough
<shlevy>
yeah
<gchristensen>
I noticed last night that the segment of the nixpkgs manual about enabling unfree makes no mention of allowUnfree
<gchristensen>
speaking of unrelated things
<shlevy>
:o
<clever>
genesis: one thing you could look into is nix-diff
<gchristensen>
the section above it mentions allowUnfree, but not the section itself :)
<clever>
genesis: with that, you can compare 2 derivations and see exactly what has changed between them
<genesis>
clever : that's not where an end use could read he has to add him to uucp group to use this soft ...
<clever>
genesis: yeah, something would need to go over the generated diff
<genesis>
bitbake use such mecanisme too, if someone knows.
<MichaelRaskin>
I guess nixos-rebuild trying to have a common something nix-env is a partially lost cause, just because you never know which user is actually the same person as root
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<shlevy>
gchristensen: Damnit graham you've convinced me annotated functions are the way to go :P
<shlevy>
This is annoying because it's a lot harder to hackily emulate
<gchristensen>
I'm innocent, I swear!
<MichaelRaskin>
What are annotated functions?
<shlevy>
MichaelRaskin: How did builderDefs reduce the verbosity of declaring inputs twice?
<shlevy>
The idea, which I'm fleshing out now, is that you can introspect metadata about both function arguments *and* function body just given the function itself.
<MichaelRaskin>
Well, you remove from inputs fetch*, stdenv and whatever extra the author specifies, the rest is buildInputs (in pre-cross view)
<MichaelRaskin>
shlevy: at which point we give up and just import Guix?
<shlevy>
MichaelRaskin: We don't want arbitrary effects
<MichaelRaskin>
In post-cross view I guess a package would need metadata that by default it goes to native (like pkgconfig)
<shlevy>
And I don't really see any reason why we'd choose guile if we were going to a general purpose language
<simpson>
shlevy: I see where you're going, mostly, and I totally understand. You need the decorator pattern, but Nix isn't meta enough for it, so you need a new function-constructor in the runtime instead.
<shlevy>
simpson: Yeah
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<simpson>
In a GP language, I'd say no, just get more meta. For Nix, I'm behind this idea. We already have derivations as not-functions, we can have another not-function type, I think.
<shlevy>
MichaelRaskin: I'm sorry, I don't understand your explanation :( Can you point to an example?
<MichaelRaskin>
I though Guix had an option to only use pure functions for expressions, but maybe I am overoptimistic
<MichaelRaskin>
shlevy: the functoin arguments are x@{fetchurl, stdenv, zlib} and then buildInputs = cleanInputs x;
<shlevy>
Ah OK
<shlevy>
Hmm let me think about how we can make that nice
<shlevy>
I like that idea
<MichaelRaskin>
Let me just inform you that this specific idea was declared an obviously hacky idea by multiple people.
<shlevy>
Oh! Right if we get to do annotated function arguments then we can do { inputs :: { zlib ... } } and just inherit inputs
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<shlevy>
MichaelRaskin: I understand where they are coming from, but IMO right now the goal should be to find a way to make it non-hacky if it serves a useful purpose
<shlevy>
And I think "reducing verbosity while retaining functional nature" is very useful
<shlevy>
OK, thanks. I'll incorporate this in to my design.
<MichaelRaskin>
Maybe there should be some more persistent yay/nay idea discussion? There are reasons I don't want to _open_ it myself, but I will come and try my best to write down all the old dreams if one exists.
<shlevy>
Yeah, I'm going to open it :)
<gchristensen>
or even a video call to talk about it
<MichaelRaskin>
NOPE
<MichaelRaskin>
I said _persistent_
<gchristensen>
big yes from MichaelRaskin
<MichaelRaskin>
I also want to be able to take the ideas from oxij and rewrite them to remove personal attacks against Lennart Poettering. Creates too much noise in audio.
<MichaelRaskin>
(I actually agree with the content of the attacks, but they are not always relevant).
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<zimbatm>
I'm looking for help to organize NixCon 2018, join #nixcon to discuss
<zimbatm>
fpletz: it looks like you registered the channel already, do you mind updating the title?
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<bgamari->
shlevy, any thoughts on #36675?
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<gchristensen>
anyone around to review some changes to ofborg's output?
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<MichaelRaskin>
<blankhart> i posted a Nix solution to the first Project Euler problem in the forums. no one else seems to be using Nix to do them for some reason, but maybe this will start a trend.